PDA

View Full Version : Pedro Alvarez


jabrch
09-06-2007, 09:35 AM
Anyone know if he actually could play SS?

He sounds like the consensus "best player available" in 2008 - but the Rays would likely pass on him with Longoria close to ready. If we are #2, is he the guy?

California Sox
09-06-2007, 03:01 PM
Anyone know if he actually could play SS?

He sounds like the consensus "best player available" in 2008 - but the Rays would likely pass on him with Longoria close to ready. If we are #2, is he the guy?

I do not believe he could be moved to short. If he moves, it'll be 1b or corner OF. The reason to draft him is for a bat that been compared to Pujols and Manny Ramirez only left-handed.

UserNameBlank
09-06-2007, 03:05 PM
With this loss we are now only ONE GAME ahead of TB for the worst record in baseball! Since there's nothing else to hope for this season, here's hoping for the worst record and number one overall in June. Tampa Bay: you're goin' up baby!! :gulp::bandance:

Let's turn Bukvich into a starter and wrap this thing up!

Hitmen77
09-06-2007, 03:16 PM
I do not believe he could be moved to short. If he moves, it'll be 1b or corner OF. The reason to draft him is for a bat that been compared to Pujols and Manny Ramirez only left-handed.

what position does Pedro Alvarez play?

jabrch
09-06-2007, 03:26 PM
what position does Pedro Alvarez play?

As I understand it, he plays SS and 3B at Vandy (http://vanderbilt.scout.com/a.z?s=189&p=8&c=1&nid=2122282). I'm not sure why he couldn't play SS here. California - have you seen him enough to talk of his range/arm? Why don't you think he could play SS here?

Vandy had a kid named Flaherty who played a lot of SS cuz he was much more rangey than Alvarez. But if Vandy had another 3B instead of another SS, Alvarez would have played exclusively at SS. Flaherty is a pretty decent prospect also - he won't go top 5, but I doubt he is there for us when we make our second pick. I'd have no problem taking both of them...

Sockinchisox
09-06-2007, 03:39 PM
If his agent is youknowho then they'll pass on him, cuz they're cool like that.

TDog
09-06-2007, 04:24 PM
As I understand it, he plays SS and 3B at Vandy (http://vanderbilt.scout.com/a.z?s=189&p=8&c=1&nid=2122282). ...

Just like Joey Cora.

If Boras is his agent, chances are he wouldn't want the Sox to draft him and probably wouldn't have him sign with the Sox if they did.

Sockinchisox
09-06-2007, 04:30 PM
People might wanna take a look at Justin Smoak, if we end up drafting 2 he would be a great 2nd pick if the D-Rays took Alvarez.

Randar68
09-06-2007, 05:46 PM
If his agent is youknowho then they'll pass on him, cuz they're cool like that.

Likely not the case anymore since they would pick at the same spot in the next draft if they are unable to sign him. First round picks have lost some leverage because teams will no longer entirely lose that pick if a guy is not signed.

UserNameBlank
09-06-2007, 05:56 PM
Just like Joey Cora.

If Boras is his agent, chances are he wouldn't want the Sox to draft him and probably wouldn't have him sign with the Sox if they did.
What does Borass care? He gets his money anyway. If the Sox draft a Borass client then the Sox will have to pony up. The difference though is that instead of spending a buttload of money on a late round pick, they would be spending a buttload of money on #1 overall. The Sox never, ever pick this high in the draft so 2008 would be a great time to make an exception to the rule.

Besides, if the Sox wuss out and do not draft the BAP while drafting first or second, KW and JR are going to have a lot of 'splainin' to do. If that happens the Sox will be roasted by everyone everywhere and deservedly so.

Edit: Also, it's not that Borass is going out of his way to publicly ***** about the Sox' practices. It's the Sox organization whining about money and how everything isn't fair. The Sox are the ones refusing to play the game. I can't stand Borass, but the guy does have every reason to make the most money for himself and his clients. Blame the Sox for not going all out to acquire Borass' talent, not Borass for being shady and driving up the price.

TDog
09-06-2007, 10:02 PM
...Besides, if the Sox wuss out and do not draft the BAP while drafting first or second, KW and JR are going to have a lot of 'splainin' to do. If that happens the Sox will be roasted by everyone everywhere and deservedly so. ....

If the Sox have the first, second or even third pick in the draft, they won't draft someone who appears unwilling to sign. Mark Prior wouldn't sign with the Twins, and they had some 'splainin' to do. Not drafting Prior raised some eyebrows, but it worked out in the Twins favor.

Tragg
09-06-2007, 11:15 PM
Where is Mark Prior these days?

Don't undestimate the ability of the Orioles and Pirates to completely quit these last 3 weeks and pass us up in the #1 choice Derby. And let those bum teams quit like that. I think we'll end up drafting #4

jabrch
09-07-2007, 12:41 AM
I still have seen no proof that we won't draft a Boras client. We didn't draft a HS pitcher who wanted a stupid-ass contract. That's not the same as not being willing to draft a Boras kid.

Randar68
09-07-2007, 11:39 AM
If the Sox have the first, second or even third pick in the draft, they won't draft someone who appears unwilling to sign. Mark Prior wouldn't sign with the Twins, and they had some 'splainin' to do. Not drafting Prior raised some eyebrows, but it worked out in the Twins favor.

And that was before the rule that replaces an unsigned pick with a pick at the same location in the draft in the following draft. Sure, you can't afford to draft in the top 10 and end up with NOTHING to show for it in terms of a signed player.

But that is not the case anymore.

Also, Mauer has turned out better than Prior, so say what you will, but with the local connection, there was more than just $$$ reason to skip over Prior.

Randar68
09-07-2007, 11:40 AM
I still have seen no proof that we won't draft a Boras client. We didn't draft a HS pitcher who wanted a stupid-ass contract. That's not the same as not being willing to draft a Boras kid.

Yep. I bet the Sox will have to give a major league contract to whoever they draft as well, so I expect they will stick with a college player.

JB98
09-07-2007, 12:48 PM
Where is Mark Prior these days?

Don't undestimate the ability of the Orioles and Pirates to completely quit these last 3 weeks and pass us up in the #1 choice Derby. And let those bum teams quit like that. I think we'll end up drafting #4

Nah, at worst we'll hang on to the No. 2 spot. We start Owens, Richar, Erstad, Gonzalez and Uribe everyday. We got this locked up. :D:

jabrch
09-07-2007, 04:41 PM
Yep. I bet the Sox will have to give a major league contract to whoever they draft as well, so I expect they will stick with a college player.

And I can't blame them one bit - I wouldn't give a HS pitcher a Major League contract - PERIOD.

UserNameBlank
09-07-2007, 08:59 PM
And I can't blame them one bit - I wouldn't give a HS pitcher a Major League contract - PERIOD.
Provide one good reason for that.

How is a HS pitcher with enough talent to successfully compete in professional baseball going to benefit more from playing against weaker competition?

Besides, if you were a HS pitcher with enough talent to be named a top 3 prospect in the MLB draft and you were concerned about your health and career length, would you rather go into a college atmosphere with college coaches that emphasize competition first and player protection second OR would you rather go into pro ball with a major league hired coaching staff where protecting a player and ensuring the health of a player is of the highest priority? Also, why wouldn't you rather be in a pro organization where they would be more likely to change your mechanics/clean up your delivery if there are concerns there?

The argument seems to be generally that high school pitchers pitch less innings than college pitchers so college pitchers have proven their health. But that doesn't always make sense because you see some of these kids come out of college and you see their mechanics and you have to wonder, if this certain player had went right into pro ball and had some changes made, how much stress would have been avoided by taking that route?

Pitchers from college can blow out their arms too. Even though certain players have better chances than others, the chances of any drafted player making a big impact in the major leagues is small for everyone, especially if it is a pitcher. If the Sox are going to draft at the top they need to take the best available player, peroid. High school or college doesn't matter. They're most likely going to have to give out a major league contract anyway so they need to go after the best out there. If not, someone needs to get fired.

Man Soo Lee
09-08-2007, 01:48 AM
Provide one good reason for that.

If you give a guy a major league contract, he goes on the 40-man roster immediately. A player drafted out of high school would be out of options at age 21-22, forcing the team to keep him in the majors regardless of his development. He's more likely to be rushed and waste one or more of the six years he's under team control before he's ready to compete.

If you're going to give a major league contract to a high schooler, he'd better be special.

oeo
09-08-2007, 09:35 AM
Anyone know if he actually could play SS?

He sounds like the consensus "best player available" in 2008 - but the Rays would likely pass on him with Longoria close to ready. If we are #2, is he the guy?

Who cares if he plays third? He's being compared to Albert Pujols. You take the best guy, even if it's not necessarily a need and worry about who to send out of here to make room later.

And actually, the Sox may end up keeping Fields in left, so after next year, 3B will be open.

Hitmen77
09-08-2007, 01:54 PM
...but is Pedro Alvarez a "grinder"? If not, then why would we want to draft him?

jabrch
09-08-2007, 04:19 PM
Who cares if he plays third? He's being compared to Albert Pujols. You take the best guy, even if it's not necessarily a need and worry about who to send out of here to make room later.

And actually, the Sox may end up keeping Fields in left, so after next year, 3B will be open.

I wasn't saying I wouldn't draft him if he can't play SS - but he is more valuable if he can. We've been able to find 3B over time - in my lifetime we've never had a great SS.

:ozzie
"Wha bow me?"

Nope - you neither Ozzie.

UserNameBlank
09-08-2007, 06:54 PM
If you give a guy a major league contract, he goes on the 40-man roster immediately. A player drafted out of high school would be out of options at age 21-22, forcing the team to keep him in the majors regardless of his development. He's more likely to be rushed and waste one or more of the six years he's under team control before he's ready to compete.

If you're going to give a major league contract to a high schooler, he'd better be special.
A player on the 40-man has three option years. A kid with enough ability to be worthy of a Major League contract should be in the Majors within three years, high school or college. You figure that player is going to probably spend his first year between rookie and low A ball, probably his second between High A and Double A, and his third at Double A or between Double A and Triple A.

Of course if injuries or other setbacks occur progress may be derailed, but you deal with that obstacle when you come to it. Three years is a good enough amount of time to get at least a decent idea what you have in your prospect regardless of what happens. When that time comes, if you don't want him on the MLB team or can't afford to have him on the MLB team, trade him.

Still, the simple fact that an issue may pop up three years down the road isn't a legitimate reason to pass up a superior talent for someone else who provides more flexibility IMO. Any organization is going to get burned here and there in the draft, but that shouldn't be enough to deter an organization from making the best effort possible.

Another funny thing is that you have people complaining about throwing away money and contracts and draft picks, specifically first rounders, saying that highly touted players who end up as busts can hold an organization back. Not to go back to the Porcello thing again, but just to make an example I'll use it because it's recent. IIRC 3.5mil is what we saved by drafting Poreda and we didn't have to give out a MLB contract. Well, add up how much money we've paid PK, Garland, Contreras, Cintron, Pods, Erstad, etc. this year. How much money have we pissed down the toilet on our MLB team? Not saying that those players weren't worth their contracts at the time they were given out, but still, those players haven't played to their contracts this year and now some of those contracts are going to hold the Sox back a lot more than a higher paid draft pick would. And of course there's the 40-man spot issue again, but hell, we could probably drop Paulino Reynoso and re-sign him to a minor league contract once he goes unclaimed if we really wanted him in the first place.

ilsox7
09-08-2007, 08:14 PM
A kid with enough ability to be worthy of a Major League contract should be in the Majors within three years, high school or college.

That is simply not true. How many 21 year old kids do you see in MLB? You can maybe get away with saying that about college players, but even then, it's a big stretch.

itsnotrequired
09-08-2007, 10:24 PM
The Sox should draft an imaginary dragon in 2008.

ilsox7
09-08-2007, 10:54 PM
The Sox should draft an imaginary dragon in 2008.

I say go for the real thing. We could incinerate our opponents with our fire breathing dragon.

itsnotrequired
09-08-2007, 11:19 PM
I say go for the real thing. We could incinerate our opponents with our fire breathing dragon.

:hawk

"Where would he play?"

oeo
09-09-2007, 12:38 AM
I wasn't saying I wouldn't draft him if he can't play SS - but he is more valuable if he can. We've been able to find 3B over time - in my lifetime we've never had a great SS.

:ozzie
"Wha bow me?"

Nope - you neither Ozzie.

This is true, but I don't think moving a guy to a position he's probably not entirely comfortable at, would change that. Sure, he'd still be putting up the offensive numbers, but if he has little-to-no range/is just plain bad defensively, what's the point? Just so we can say we drafted a good offensive SS?

WhiteSox5187
09-09-2007, 01:09 AM
:hawk

"Where would he play?"
He could come out of the bullpen.

UserNameBlank
09-09-2007, 01:26 AM
That is simply not true. How many 21 year old kids do you see in MLB? You can maybe get away with saying that about college players, but even then, it's a big stretch.
There are a lot more than you think.

I'm obviously not going to go through the league or anything, but just on our team the following players made their MLB debut before turning 22: Gavin Floyd, Ryan Sweeney, AJ Pierznski, Paul Konerko, Boone Logan, Jon Garland, Mark Buehrle, Jim Thome, Jermaine Dye, and Joe Crede. That's 1/4 of our 40 man roster. Sisco, Erstad, Terrero, and Danks all debuted at 22. I'm sure if you wanted to look you'd find a ton of players who have made their debut as 21 year olds or younger.

Edit: actually, I just looked and Danks did debut as a 21 year old but turned 22 later in the year. So that's 21 out of 40 players on our current 40-man. Also, of the players listed only Danks, Floyd, Konerko, and Garland were first rounders. And none of them were taken as high as we'd be picking, except maybe Floyd but that would only be if we climb up a couple spots. So we're talking about drafting players here that at the time of the draft would be more highly touted than any of the players on our team were when they were drafted. I'd say giving a major league contract to the BAP and top 3 overall in next June's draft shouldn't be a problem, high school or college.

Britt Burns
09-09-2007, 01:37 AM
I don't care if borass is his agent...if he is available whenever the sox pick, I say vote for Pedro. a lefy-hitting corner infielder who draws comaprisons to Pujols? Ummm, yes please.

UserNameBlank
09-09-2007, 01:44 AM
I don't care if borass is his agent...if he is available whenever the sox pick, I say vote for Pedro. a lefy-hitting corner infielder who draws comaprisons to Pujols? Ummm, yes please.
I hate that movie but if the Sox do end up with #1 overall that would be a great campaign to start.

Man Soo Lee
09-09-2007, 03:06 AM
There are a lot more than you think.

I'm obviously not going to go through the league or anything, but just on our team the following players made their MLB debut before turning 22: Gavin Floyd, Ryan Sweeney, AJ Pierznski, Paul Konerko, Boone Logan, Jon Garland, Mark Buehrle, Jim Thome, Jermaine Dye, and Joe Crede. That's 1/4 of our 40 man roster.

What does the age at MLB debut prove? If the guy is out of options, he has to stick in the majors at 21. Aside from Buehrle and Garland (who only made 5 more minor league starts), every other guy on this list spent significant time in the minors after making his debut.

jabrch
09-09-2007, 03:10 AM
This is true, but I don't think moving a guy to a position he's probably not entirely comfortable at, would change that. Sure, he'd still be putting up the offensive numbers, but if he has little-to-no range/is just plain bad defensively, what's the point? Just so we can say we drafted a good offensive SS?

But that's not the case here. From all I read, Alvarez is a natural SS who is playing 3B because his team has an even better SS. I haven't seen either of them play - which is why I am asking the question. I agree - you don't want him there if he can't play it to at least an MLB average level defensively - we'd be better off with him at 3B in that case.

jabrch
09-09-2007, 03:12 AM
I don't care if borass is his agent...if he is available whenever the sox pick, I say vote for Pedro. a lefy-hitting corner infielder who draws comaprisons to Pujols? Ummm, yes please.

There are other options also. Smoak is reported to look very good also. He's a 1B, but he looks like a great hitter from what I am reading.

Has anyone actually seen these kids, or are we all just going off of scouting reports?

jabrch
09-09-2007, 03:15 AM
What does the age at MLB debut prove? If the guy is out of options, he has to stick in the majors at 21. Aside from Buehrle and Garland (who only made 5 more minor league starts), every other guy on this list spent significant time in the minors after making his debut.

Exactly - I'm glad management won't burn a 40 man roster spot and 8mm for a guy who you may have to rush before they are ready. Let's see what's there when we pick, and what management does. My guess is we go for a college hitter and give him an MLB contract. In that case, it is assumed he'd be ready inside of three years, and the MLB contract would allow us to spread out the bonus money over more time than just a standard contract would.

Frater Perdurabo
09-09-2007, 07:14 AM
If Pedro Alvarez is the best player on the board when the Sox draft, they should draft him and make sure they sign him. Obviously they don't want to give in to every demand, but it's a bigger risk to pass on that kind of talent than to put big dollars into signing it.

The last time the Sox were drafting this high, they got McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez. With a top 5 pick, I want another Thomas, but I'd settle for another McDowell, Ventura or Fernandez. Can we bring back Larry Himes to make sure we draft the right guy?

DrCrawdad
09-09-2007, 10:43 AM
If Pedro Alvarez is the best player on the board when the Sox draft, they should draft him and make sure they sign him. Obviously they don't want to give in to every demand, but it's a bigger risk to pass on that kind of talent than to put big dollars into signing it.

The last time the Sox were drafting this high, they got McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez. With a top 5 pick, I want another Thomas, but I'd settle for another McDowell, Ventura or Fernandez. Can we bring back Larry Himes to make sure we draft the right guy?

From what I've read, Himes string of strong draft picks ended when he became the Cubbies GM.

IIRC in Himes last year with the Cubbies they (with Goldis in charge) drafted 43 pitchers and Goldis was certain that they'd harvested a boatload of MLB arms. Of that group I believe only Kyle Farnsworth (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/farnsky01.shtml) made it to MLB. In '93 they passed on Billy Wagner and drafted Brooks Kieschnick (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kiescbr01.shtml) and Steve Rain. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/rainst01.shtml)

ilsox7
09-09-2007, 12:58 PM
What does the age at MLB debut prove? If the guy is out of options, he has to stick in the majors at 21. Aside from Buehrle and Garland (who only made 5 more minor league starts), every other guy on this list spent significant time in the minors after making his debut.

Well said. I should have been more specific in my question, but this is exactly what I meant.

UserNameBlank
09-10-2007, 12:31 AM
What does the age at MLB debut prove? If the guy is out of options, he has to stick in the majors at 21. Aside from Buehrle and Garland (who only made 5 more minor league starts), every other guy on this list spent significant time in the minors after making his debut.
A few points here:

1. The list I made was a response to the comment that there aren't many 21 year olds in baseball.

2. We are talking about giving contracts to players who at the time of the draft would be deemed more "special" than the talent I named were when they were drafted.

3. If a pretty good to great prospect makes his MLB debut then the organization is basically telling him that he is good enough to at least play and learn at that level. If a team has the luxury of letting a certain player develop further in the minor leagues then great for them. Also playoff contention/veteran presence/veteran contract situations play into this as well, so a team that has a minor league player ready to contribute may not be used in a regular starting situation because of veteran depth. It doesn't make sense to say that every player who went back down to the minor leagues necessarily had to go back to the minor leagues to work on something.

4. We're not talking about some sweeping general rule that would say every single player should be expected to contribute regularly at the MLB level within the span of three years. We're talking about giving a Major League contract to one minor league player. Have the Sox ever done that? If the Sox draft in the top three, take the BAP, and give their draft pick a Major League contract, wouldn't that be the first time in Sox modern era history that that happened?

5. A spot on the 40-man can be "wasted" so to speak. We're "wasting" roster spots right now; too many in fact and that is why our team is even in the consideration for top overall pick to begin with. Would anyone really cry if the Sox dropped someone like Paulino Reynoso from the 40-man to make room for what would be the Sox' highest drafted pick since 1977 when they drafted Harold Baines #1 overall? The last time the Sox drafted in the top five they took Alex Fernandez (#4) and Jack McDowell (#5). Is this really going to make anyone upset to replace a waste-of-space player like Reynoso with a hell of a prospect?

6. Anyone who looks at whether or not a player will be ready to contribute at the MLB level three years after being drafted as a major obstacle is a worry wart. And before anyone gets offended I don't mean that as an insult; that is just the truth. If a player can get through three productive years at the minor league level without sustaining major injury you are lucky as it is, especially if that player is a pitcher. You deal with that bridge when you come to it and you do not under any circumstances use "what if he's not ready in three years?" as an excuse to pass on the BAP in the draft. Any organization that does that is ass backwards and it's GM will inevitably get fired and it's ownership will be heavily criticisized by every casual or diehard fan that is aware of it.

7. All of the arguments against giving a major league contract to the BAP in next year's draft just seem to be for the sake of argument and nothing more. I can see absolutely no reason why anyone would be thinking about all these small little "what if's," like "what if we spend money on a pick that bombs?" or "what if this player isn't good enough in three years?" while ignoring the much, much larger picture, which says this:

-Our MLB team sucks right now.
-Our MLB team is an aged, veteran core and we don't have the amount of youth we need to consistently pencil ourselves in as contenders.
-We have some talent at the minor league level but that talent is pretty much just Egbert, Gio and Broadway who are ready now. Everyone else is in A ball or Rookie ball and very raw and very far away.
-We need more talented young players at every level from A ball to the Major League team.
-We only have one young player in our entire organization right now who is capable of anchoring our offense in the future, and his name is Fields. The closest to him is Chris Carter who is in ****ing Kannapolis.
-We have a couple young SP who look promising but the only guy we have above Rookie ball who looks like he could have ace stuff is DLS, and he's only had a couple of starts in High A Winston-Salem.

I think this is a pretty easy decision to make and not something that anyone really needs to argue over. We're going to draft top three for the first time in 31 years next June and we had better take the BAP and give him the bonus and that major league contract he's looking for. If Borass is his agent, now is not the time to act like a stubborn baby and refuse to talk. Now is the time to act like a Major League, large market organization that is serious about finding, signing, and developing the best young players it can for it's future.