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Lip Man 1
09-04-2007, 06:02 PM
Bruce Levine is reporting the Sox will extend Ozzie by the end of the month.

I have no issues with Ozzie being retained as long as he's allowed to be himself, say what he feels and manages the way he wants. (as per his 'apology' last week for NOT being himself the past season.) Now that doesn't mean I agree with the 'way' he manages all the time (i.e. resting guys early in the season, bullpen 'match-up' situations ect...) but overall I still think he's the right guy in the right time period.

Regarding Bruce, have met him, he's a nice guy... but is very often wrong with his comments. I can think of a number of Sox stories he's 'broken' that have been dead wrong in the past two years so take what he reports with a grain of salt.

Lip

TheCommander
09-04-2007, 06:06 PM
Bruce Levine is reporting the Sox will extend Ozzie by the end of the month.

I have no issues with Ozzie being retained as long as he's allowed to be himself, say what he feels and manages the way he wants. (as per his 'apology' last week for NOT being himself the past season.) Now that doesn't mean I agree with the 'way' he manages all the time (i.e. resting guys early in the season, bullpen 'match-up' situations ect...) but overall I still think he's the right guy in the right time period.

Regarding Bruce, have met him, he's a nice guy... but is very often wrong with his comments. I can think of a number of Sox stories he's 'broken' that have been dead wrong in the past two years so take what he reports with a grain of salt.

Lip

Bruce Levine has been wrong before?? Naw!!!!!!!! :D:

Soxfest
09-04-2007, 06:20 PM
I believe nothing BR.......UCE says about the Sox he is so worthless it is unreal.

Frontman
09-04-2007, 06:24 PM
I'd be happy to see Ozzie retained.

Foulke You
09-04-2007, 06:36 PM
Does anyone know how long Ozzie's current contract runs thru? Is it 2008?

Daver
09-04-2007, 06:44 PM
Does anyone know how long Ozzie's current contract runs thru? Is it 2008?

2008 with an option for 2009.

GlassSox
09-04-2007, 07:15 PM
I have no problem w/ Ozzie getting another year.

WhiteSox5187
09-04-2007, 07:15 PM
I think Ozzie is a good manager, not great, but he's pretty good. And he's still learning. Plus he's the right guy for this team...as for Levineline, well, if you can't say something nice about somebody...

champagne030
09-04-2007, 08:03 PM
Bruce Levine is reporting the Sox will extend Ozzie by the end of the month.

I have no issues with Ozzie being retained as long as he's allowed to be himself, say what he feels and manages the way he wants. (as per his 'apology' last week for NOT being himself the past season.) Now that doesn't mean I agree with the 'way' he manages all the time (i.e. resting guys early in the season, bullpen 'match-up' situations ect...) but overall I still think he's the right guy in the right time period.

Regarding Bruce, have met him, he's a nice guy... but is very often wrong with his comments. I can think of a number of Sox stories he's 'broken' that have been dead wrong in the past two years so take what he reports with a grain of salt.

Lip

I guess he's being rewarded for his A.

ZombieRob
09-04-2007, 08:08 PM
:rolling: good one.

IlliniSox4Life
09-04-2007, 09:19 PM
I would have no problem extending Ozzie really. He's not the best coach I've ever seen - but he's our guy. Also, he is a pretty good manager too, I'm not saying he's not.

Frater Perdurabo
09-04-2007, 09:32 PM
I don't think Ozzie is a great manager, but I don't think he's terrible, either.

As long as there is an option for 2009, I'd prefer to wait on offering an extension until at least All Star break of 2008. I'd like to see how the team performs in the first half of 2008 before making a longer commitment.

A. Cavatica
09-04-2007, 09:33 PM
Extending Ozzie after the last season+ of corpseball would be a sick joke.

palehozenychicty
09-04-2007, 09:35 PM
I think Ozzie stays on for awhile longer. He represents our organization in a nutshell. Just be a little more patient with the youth, and it'll be all good, Oz.

October26
09-04-2007, 09:35 PM
I would support this extension of Ozzie; however I would like to see Kenny make some moves in the off season. I do not want to see this same group of players next year.

Grzegorz
09-04-2007, 09:35 PM
I don't think Ozzie is a great manager, but I don't think he's terrible, either.

As long as there is an option for 2009, I'd prefer to wait on offering an extension until at least All Star break of 2008. I'd like to see how the team performs in the first half of 2008 before making a longer commitment.

I totally agree with your logic. I'd wait to see what the team looks like out of the 2008 gate.

jfinsocal
09-04-2007, 10:17 PM
An extension makes no sense to me; it's not like college sports where competing schools can use this against you by saying the coach won't around after your freshman year. Maybe free agents care a little about the manager's potential tenure but maybe I am missing something here?

kitekrazy
09-04-2007, 10:25 PM
An extension makes no sense to me; it's not like college sports where competing schools can use this against you by saying the coach won't around after your freshman year. Maybe free agents care a little about the manager's potential tenure but maybe I am missing something here?

Maybe the list of major league managers is a bit short. Who would you replace him with what is available now?

Tragg
09-04-2007, 10:53 PM
Maybe the list of major league managers is a bit short. Who would you replace him with what is available now?
He has a year left. Not extending him doesn't mean the Sox need a new manager now.

An extension should be for a job well-done. Certainly the disaster isn't all his fault...but he didn't stabilize the ship. And he hasn't performed his secondary job - developing the young talent - very adeptly either, at least based on results. He's done nothing worthy of an extension in either 06 or 07.

BainesHOF
09-05-2007, 03:02 PM
Extending Ozzie after the last season+ of corpseball would be a sick joke.

Exactly.

Personally, I'm not saying Ozzie should be fired now. However, to actually give him an extension after managing perhaps the most disappointing team in franchise history is just plain weird.

Look, I understand Reinsdorf's preference to blame the team's woes on the performance of the players. While I agree with him that the players are to blame, to look the other way at Ozzie's managing and not only absolve him of any blame but to go a step further and give him an extension at this time is ludicrous.

I'm not even a fan of LaRussa, but he is exactly what this group of players needs. LaRussa's greatest attribute as a manager is that his teams play hard, and it would be nice if our team at least played hard this year. That it didn't is an indictment of Ozzie's managing these days.

The recent report that said players in the clubhouse were laughing at losses as far back at last September when we were still in the race does not reflect well on Ozzie.

It seems that this organization is returning to some of its weird ways of the past before we won the World Series and all was right with the world. Giving Ozzie an extension at this time is one example. Raising ticket prices after this disasterous season is another.

What's next, the re-hiring of Rob Gallas?

Boondock Saint
09-05-2007, 03:11 PM
You can't fully blame Ozzie for the terrible results this year, or the disappointment of last year. He isn't the batter that isn't hitting the ball, and he isn't the relief pitcher that can't go an inning without giving up the game. But he has made some infuriating calls, too, ala the "musical chairs" batting lineup, Bukvich vs. A-Rod with the bases loaded or Thornton consistently coming in to face one batter. Overall, I wouldn't be upset if he got an extension.

oeo
09-05-2007, 03:17 PM
An extension makes no sense to me; it's not like college sports where competing schools can use this against you by saying the coach won't around after your freshman year. Maybe free agents care a little about the manager's potential tenure but maybe I am missing something here?

Maybe it's for the things he does that go unnoticed. For instance, the way he's kept the clubhouse together through this terrible season. And don't tell me he hasn't because guys like Buehrle and Dye would not have re-signed if the clubhouse was falling apart.

It's not Ozzie's fault that the team he was given isn't that good, and the pieces that are, are not perform to their expectations. The players have to do their jobs, and they have yet to do that this year.

jabrch
09-05-2007, 03:36 PM
He has a year left. Not extending him doesn't mean the Sox need a new manager now.

Having a lame duck manager is never a good idea...

soxinem1
09-05-2007, 04:56 PM
In all honesty, though I have my differences with Guillen, it does show the players that they will be held accountable rather than the old addage of firing the MGR and making him the scapegoat.

Maybe being exiled to KC, SF, PIT will wake up those players.

Wait a minute...... those teams all have better records than the White Sox.

Man, have times changed....

skobabe8
09-05-2007, 05:10 PM
Extending Ozzie after the last season+ of corpseball would be a sick joke.

Its hard to play "small ball" when your pitching sucks.

champagne030
09-05-2007, 05:33 PM
He has a year left. Not extending him doesn't mean the Sox need a new manager now.

An extension should be for a job well-done. Certainly the disaster isn't all his fault...but he didn't stabilize the ship. And he hasn't performed his secondary job - developing the young talent - very adeptly either, at least based on results. He's done nothing worthy of an extension in either 06 or 07.

Yep, no valid reason for an extension - especially with an option available for 2009. If JR wants to reward him for his A this season then pick up the option.

jdm2662
09-05-2007, 05:39 PM
Guys, this is Bruce Levine, right? Where exactly did he get his info? Let me guess, a "source".

However, for the sake of discussion, I agree with most of you. Ozzie shouldn't be fired, but he should not be given an extension just yet. I don't think he's the worst manager/coach out there, but he's not the greatest either. Give him a year to right the ship. If he proves he can, good. If not, then you need to consider looking elsewhere.

voodoochile
09-05-2007, 05:43 PM
If...

...JR is happy with Ozzie as his field manager.

...KW is happy working with Ozzie.

...The Players are happy playing for Ozzie...

Then it's a great decision to sign Ozzie now. It sends a message of stability to the veterans and other FA's who might sign here (and if the current players like playing for Ozzie, you can bet it's common knowledge among all the players in MLB). It also probably is a good time from a financial perspective - Ozzie can hardly ask for a raise after the last two seasons and the issues he has suffered with from a PR perspective.

If ozzie returns to his pre-PC form and manages to light a fire under the team next year and KW brings in some talent to fill the problem areas, who knows. Either way, it's not a horrible decision to do it now...

BainesHOF
09-06-2007, 03:39 AM
If...

...JR is happy with Ozzie as his field manager.

...KW is happy working with Ozzie.

...The Players are happy playing for Ozzie...

Did you ever consider the players are too happy playing for Ozzie? There's been virtually no consequences for players who haven't performed this season so there is absolutely no reason for anybody to not like playing for Ozzie.

Who cares if the players like playing for Ozzie? The point of a manager is for a person to manage to get the best out of his players. That clearly hasn't happened this season.

TomBradley72
09-06-2007, 07:42 AM
I don't see any evidence based on 2006 and 2007 results that Ozzie deserves an extension. He's overseen the 12th worst season in franchise history this year....

RedHeadPaleHoser
09-06-2007, 09:26 AM
If Ozzie returns to his pre-PC form and manages to light a fire under the team next year and KW brings in some talent to fill the problem areas, who knows. Either way, it's not a horrible decision to do it now...

I think it's a good idea to show some stability to the franchis by giving him an extension - for one year. I think some shakeups in the lineup, some sit downs, etc., help him manage this team.

I think the worst thing that's happened is the post WS "PC" that's gone on...everything is dissected in the media....and his inability to manage his team like he did in 2005 has hurt the club. He needs to get back to that.

voodoochile
09-06-2007, 09:36 AM
Did you ever consider the players are too happy playing for Ozzie? There's been virtually no consequences for players who haven't performed this season so there is absolutely no reason for anybody to not like playing for Ozzie.

Who cares if the players like playing for Ozzie? The point of a manager is for a person to manage to get the best out of his players. That clearly hasn't happened this season.

Really? What consequences should there be? Should a pitcher who doesn't pitch well get sent down to the minors - seems like that has happened a lot this year, of course eventually you run out of guys who are ready to come up and then the choice becomes bring up the guys who sucked the first time or stick it out with the current group of sucks.

What exactly would you do differently than Ozzie has done? Please don't just say, "bench so and so" or "cut so and so". If you want to bench or cut a player, tell us who you would replace them with.

voodoochile
09-06-2007, 09:37 AM
I don't see any evidence based on 2006 and 2007 results that Ozzie deserves an extension. He's overseen the 12th worst season in franchise history this year....

And one of the top 3 the year before that. That average out in his favor I think...:cool:

jabrch
09-06-2007, 10:44 AM
Did you ever consider the players are too happy playing for Ozzie? There's been virtually no consequences for players who haven't performed this season so there is absolutely no reason for anybody to not like playing for Ozzie.

Who cares if the players like playing for Ozzie? The point of a manager is for a person to manage to get the best out of his players. That clearly hasn't happened this season.

We won 189 games in the two seasons before this. Don't you think it is a big quick to be concluding that he can't get the best out of his players when they had one terrible year?

I don't care either way if OG stays or not. I'm no fan of his - but I don't dislike him. If they players play well, Guillen will be cannonized again. If they don't - he will be a cause.

To me, managers importance is grossly exaggerated by fans - in particular when the team does extremely well or extremely poorly.

SOXandILLINI
09-06-2007, 09:07 PM
:gulp:
:gulp:
:gulp:
:gulp:
:gulp:
:gulp:
:gulp:
:gulp:.... Lots of lining up at the Ozzie kool aid bar. Job well done Ozzaroo, here's an extension.... ROFLMAO. If you don't wanna fire him, fine, but extending him is an absolute joke.

Tragg
09-06-2007, 11:27 PM
If Guillen had squeezed 78 or so wins out of this bunch, I could see it. If we had young players that were improving and looked like they could start next season, I could see it.
As of now, a couple youngsters have potential, none look like they'll be above average major leaguers next year, and this team will be lucky to win 70 games.
A 1 year extension? Okay, I could see that to avoid lame-duckness; but any longer than that rewards, well, 65ish wins.

voodoochile
09-06-2007, 11:35 PM
If Guillen had squeezed 78 or so wins out of this bunch, I could see it. If we had young players that were improving and looked like they could start next season, I could see it.
As of now, a couple youngsters have potential, none look like they'll be above average major leaguers next year, and this team will be lucky to win 70 games.
A 1 year extension? Okay, I could see that to avoid lame-duckness; but any longer than that rewards, well, 65ish wins.

Well it also rewards the WS championship he brought home two years before and won 90 and barely missed the playoffs last year.

I don't get it.

How is this year all Ozzie's fault when the team physically fell apart in the first half. I've seen people ripping on Ozzie for the way he handles the bullpen to that I say, WHAT FREAKING BULLPEN?!?!?!????!?!?

The second half they've been playing out the string and giving some young kids a chance to develop. I'll trust KW and JR's judgment on Ozzie before I will people who simply cannot look at the whole picture and only want to look at the most recent W-L record which is obviously bad. In the end, winning 75 or 65 is really meaningless. It's still going to suck and actually less wins is better, of course the people who only think with their hearts don't understand that...

Tragg
09-06-2007, 11:50 PM
Well it also rewards the WS championship he brought home two years before and won 90 and barely missed the playoffs last year.

I don't get it.

How is this year all Ozzie's fault when the team physically fell apart in the first half. I've seen people ripping on Ozzie for the way he handles the bullpen to that I say, WHAT FREAKING BULLPEN?!?!?!????!?!?

The second half they've been playing out the string and giving some young kids a chance to develop. I'll trust KW and JR's judgment on Ozzie before I will people who simply cannot look at the whole picture and only want to look at the most recent W-L record which is obviously bad. In the end, winning 75 or 65 is really meaningless.
Ultimately, sure, Kenny knows more than we do, so we shouldn't discuss it at all. But, we could say that about everything.
If you want to reward the WS, then extend him after he won it...do it contemporaneously with the deed you want to reward, not contemporaneously with 65 wins. Right now, the message would be that 65 wins is acceptable.
75 or 65 is meaningless in the sense that both miss the playoffs; it's not meaningless in the sense of what did you do given the bad circumstances; did you turn these kids into major leaguers and teach them to win?....78 wins, given the circumstances, is a success; 65 is not. Through it all, he had a solid starting staff (we haven't had a signficant injury to a starter in 4 years - maybe longer).

I agree that no one could manage that bullpen. But, offensively, even if I give Ozzie a pass on the personnel decisions at the start of the year (which I don't) it's Ozzie who makes these nutty lineups: Richar batting 8, Fields 2 and Erstad 5. Owens unwaivering at 1. And early in the year, Iguchi is demoted to 8 in favor of ERstad, even though Iguchi is twice the hitter Erstad is.

drewcifer
09-06-2007, 11:54 PM
Ultimately, sure, Kenny knows more than we do, so we shouldn't discuss it at all. But, we could say that about everything.
If you want to reward the WS, then extend him after he won it...do it contemporaneously with the deed you want to reward, not contemporaneously with 65 wins. Right now, the message is that 65 wins is acceptable.
75 or 65 is meaningless in the sense that both miss the playoffs; it's not meaningless in the sense of what did you do given the bad circumstances; did you turn these kids into major leaguers and teach them to win?....78 wins, given the circumstances, is a success; 65 is not. Through it all, he had a solid starting staff (we haven't had a signficant injury to a starter in 4 years - maybe longer).

I agree that no one could manage that bullpen. But, offensively, even if I give Ozzie a pass on this personnel (which I don't) it's Ozzie who makes these nutty lineups: Richar batting 8, Fields 2 and Erstad 5. Owens unwaivering at 1. And early in the year, Iguchi is demoted to 8 in favor of ERstad, even though Iguchi is twice the hitter Erstad is.

He does make the lineups, you're right. Maybe he should pencil himself in, actually. At least he can bunt and probably still hit to move runners. These clowns can't no matter where you put them in the order.

WSox597
09-07-2007, 07:30 AM
barely missed the playoffs last year.

If he didn't trot Rob Mackowiak out to CF so many times, the Sox probably make the playoffs last year. That was Ozzie's idea.

He most likely doesn't deserve getting fired, but an extension to the manager of a last place team is insane. It sends the wrong message to the team, and it looks like this team definitely doesn't need any more wrong messages.

It wouldn't bother me to see him replaced, but this year there are bigger problems than Guillen's ego. The coaching in the minors looks more and more suspect with every "prospect" they bring up.

When you see a major league player that can't bunt, something they are taught in Little League, and up, there is something seriously wrong. It's like almost the whole team has forgotten baseball fundamentals this year.

voodoochile
09-07-2007, 07:42 AM
Ultimately, sure, Kenny knows more than we do, so we shouldn't discuss it at all. But, we could say that about everything.
If you want to reward the WS, then extend him after he won it...do it contemporaneously with the deed you want to reward, not contemporaneously with 65 wins. Right now, the message would be that 65 wins is acceptable.
75 or 65 is meaningless in the sense that both miss the playoffs; it's not meaningless in the sense of what did you do given the bad circumstances; did you turn these kids into major leaguers and teach them to win?....78 wins, given the circumstances, is a success; 65 is not. Through it all, he had a solid starting staff (we haven't had a signficant injury to a starter in 4 years - maybe longer).

I agree that no one could manage that bullpen. But, offensively, even if I give Ozzie a pass on the personnel decisions at the start of the year (which I don't) it's Ozzie who makes these nutty lineups: Richar batting 8, Fields 2 and Erstad 5. Owens unwaivering at 1. And early in the year, Iguchi is demoted to 8 in favor of ERstad, even though Iguchi is twice the hitter Erstad is.

See, that seems silly to me, but I'm not all about what happened in the last 5 minutes of my life either. If you value the effort/effectiveness of the WS title more than you assign blame for the current debacle of a season, then it shouldn't matter when Ozzie gets his extension. Like I said IF KW and JR believe OG is the right man for the job then give him the extension. Send the message and keep on keeping on. The extension says "Ozzie's the guy who will lead this team for the foreseeable future so don't expect us to panic over one bad injury filled season.

By what standard do you judge the starter injury statement? Does Garland's shoulder count? He obviously hasn't been the same pitcher he was last year. Do the total burnout dead arm phase that ripped through the staff last year in the second half count? Does Contreras falling off the face of the Earth as a quality starter this year count (injury or not, he sucked big time for a long stretch of the season)? Does having a rookie who is putting up an ERA of 5.5+ count? Injuries aren't the only thing that can bring down a pitching staff and when they faltered who did Ozzie have to turn to?

And then there's the offense which has been simply offensive. I mean do you think team numbers like:
BA .243
OPS .710
Runs 581 (projected ~ 675)

are good?

Go ahead, blame it on the lineups, but like it or not, this team has been in build for 2008 mode for most of the past 1.5 months and well they should be.

I mean honestly, the first half of this season was injury riddled and filled with bullpen meltdowns. The second half has been (by plan) a tryout for next year and a chance for some young kids to learn new positions. It's not shocking that the team is on pace to win 65 games given those facts. So judging Ozzie on this years team's record seems simply silly.

I trust KW and JR to do what they feel is right for the team. If that means extending Ozzie, then go for it. Full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes as it were...

FarWestChicago
09-07-2007, 06:22 PM
I'll trust KW and JR's judgment on Ozzie before I will people who simply cannot look at the whole picture and only want to look at the most recent W-L record which is obviously bad.I don't know, Voo. We have geniuses here who are about to reveal unification theories that will reconcile General Relativity and quantum mechanics. You, me, KW, JR; we just have to sit back and have the truth revealed. Let's just go with the flow. :cool:

TornLabrum
09-07-2007, 10:19 PM
I don't know, Voo. We have geniuses here who are about to reveal unification theories that will reconcile General Relativity and quantum mechanics. You, me, KW, JR; we just have to sit back and have the truth revealed. Let's just go with the flow. :cool:

Aaaaaawwwwwww...Do we have to? After reading this thread, all I can say is, "Never has so much been uttered by so many that says so little."

voodoochile
09-07-2007, 11:50 PM
I don't know, Voo. We have geniuses here who are about to reveal unification theories that will reconcile General Relativity and quantum mechanics. You, me, KW, JR; we just have to sit back and have the truth revealed. Let's just go with the flow. :cool:

Well you know, individually wins, losses, runs and RBI are meaningless stats because they reflect a team effort, not an individual accomplishment. ERA, WHIP, K/9, OPS, BA and HR are better ways of evaluating a player's worth to the team.

BUT...

Give a manager a team filled with guys who have collectively managed to suck completely at those "true indicators" of worth and it's all the managers fault that the W/L record is less than stellar...

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2007, 09:38 AM
I heard Tailgunner Joe being interviewed by one of the sportsblab on-air geeks, and he pretty much poo-pooed the entire notion that an Ozzie contract extension was imminent noting that the source of the report (they didn't use LeVineLine's name) is notoriously inaccurate and not to be believed.

And all I can think to myself is, "Pot, meet the kettle."

Next came another blizzard of male enhancement and gentlemen's clubs ads, so I tuned out. I lose brain cells everytime I listen...