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RichH55
04-09-2002, 05:09 AM
How long til we hear the chant!?
It might not be long til it is the second most known chant after Detroit Sucks@!

:hitless
I've always wanted to be an Icon




Yeah kind of like Stalin in Russia(and so ends the hyperbole of this post)

RichH55
04-09-2002, 05:10 AM
Royce is my favorite player to boo.....or 2nd whenever Wil Cordero is in town "Oh my wife is going to pay for that!"


Hopefully Royce makes me eat my words, but I have an ominous air of invincibility of this argument

Procol Harum
04-09-2002, 10:33 AM
The Choice could probably save himself a real embarrassing moment if he could manage to pony up 2-3 hits vs. Detroit or actually make an offensive contribution to a win (as opposed to being merely offensive). Out of common courtesy and decency, I would hope folks don't boo the boy or start the chant during the pregame intros or at his first at bat.

But given the general stench of his play, it'll be hard to resist standing up on my chair and "M.V.P!"-ing with the best of 'em if we're looking at a hitless day and a 4-2 deficit in the late innings!

Kilroy
04-09-2002, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
But given the general stench of his play, it'll be hard to resist standing up on my chair and "M.V.P!"-ing with the best of 'em if we're looking at a hitless day and a 4-2 deficit in the late innings!

If we're losing 4-2 to hapless Baltimore, Royce won't be the only one who deserves a good booing.

duke of dorwood
04-09-2002, 11:02 AM
:nardi

Can't wait to trot onto that field Friday

FarmerAndy
04-09-2002, 12:08 PM
I'm not going to boo Royce just yet. Kilroy's right, if we're losing to teams like the Tigers and The Orioles, we have alot more to boo than Royce. If the guys that we actually expect to hit can get the job done, I don't think the #9 hitter will hurt us too much. Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy with Royce's performance so far either, but right now I think we have bigger fish to fry.

For those who really like to stretch and look at the bright side: Royce is in a four-way for second on the team with 4 RBI, not bad for somebody hitting a miserable 1 for 18.

ode to veeck
04-09-2002, 01:32 PM
four ribbbies not much when you consider how many men have been on base when he's up--anyone got the stats on this, i think he leads Sox in LOB by a wide margin (I'll bet he's avg'd at least 4/game so far)

choice's last year's ending BA is a misnomer (for those that argue it)--he hit .100 to .150 when it counted in the first two months, a liability even in the back end of the order, esp considering the Sox winning '00 formula: score more runs than anyone else in the majors

and we have a better defensive line-up with Crede at 3b and Manos at SS--so why is he there JM KW!?!? face it, & get over it: you're eating his contract and focus on winning by making the move before the season's over here

needless to say there are other problems on the mound too, but not making the move on choice two years straight says KW and JM should go if the Sox destruct before May 1--even the Hawk would see this

FarmerAndy
04-09-2002, 02:18 PM
If we can get rid of Royce, I'd be fine with it. I don't agree that defense would be better with Crede/Valentin. I think the best defensive scenerio would be Crede/Clayton, but we have to have Valentin in the batting lineup.

I know that Clayton is a weakness on the offensive side of things. But I still feel that Valentin is a defensive weakness. We can get rid of Royce, which will improve the offense, but I still won't feel good about having Valentin at shortstop.

I know alot of people disagree, but I'm so tired of White Sox teams that are all offense and miserable at defense. Thomas, Lee, Valentin, and Leifer are all DH's in my mind, yet there is only room for one DH, so we have to play some of our DH's in the field.
Someday I'd like to see a Sox team that kills other teams with solid defense. I want a Sox team that can rob hits from the other team. That's exciting baseball.

RichieRichAllen
04-09-2002, 02:40 PM
I agree with you 100%. The two things I was most concerned with in the off season was in getting a #1 starter and tightening the defense (even if it weakened the offense slightly). Lee's looked better in LF, but it's a long season. Hopefully, Valentin won't be the defensive liability at 3B that he was at SS over the long term this year.

There's no doubt in my mind that we need to determine who the DH will be day-to-day and package the rest (Lee, Valentin or Liefer) to fill our holes. Of course, we have to assume our "brain trust" would know a good deal from a poor one. I assume THAT'S in a "higher power's" hands, though.

Originally posted by FarmerAndy
If we can get rid of Royce, I'd be fine with it. I don't agree that defense would be better with Crede/Valentin. I think the best defensive scenerio would be Crede/Clayton, but we have to have Valentin in the batting lineup.

I know that Clayton is a weakness on the offensive side of things. But I still feel that Valentin is a defensive weakness. We can get rid of Royce, which will improve the offense, but I still won't feel good about having Valentin at shortstop.

I know alot of people disagree, but I'm so tired of White Sox teams that are all offense and miserable at defense. Thomas, Lee, Valentin, and Leifer are all DH's in my mind, yet there is only room for one DH, so we have to play some of our DH's in the field.
Someday I'd like to see a Sox team that kills other teams with solid defense. I want a Sox team that can rob hits from the other team. That's exciting baseball.

ode to veeck
04-09-2002, 03:29 PM
Though some would argue it actually would be, I didn't mean to imply Crede/Jose was the best defensive lineup, just a much better one than Jose/Choice--why is Crede sent down (for a fourth year!) after .380BA spring training?--its obviously a better lineup defensively and offensively ... and puts one of our DHs in the field in his most comfortable position-so why is Sox mgmt like an ostrich with its head in the ground (or up its a__)?!?!?

Nellie_Fox
04-09-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
Though some would argue it actually would be, I didn't mean to imply Crede/Jose was the best defensive lineup, just a much better one than Jose/Choice
It is not good baseball to weaken yourself defensively up the middle in order to strengthen yourself at a corner.

Kilroy
04-09-2002, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
Though some would argue it actually would be, I didn't mean to imply Crede/Jose was the best defensive lineup, just a much better one than Jose/Choice--why is Crede sent down (for a fourth year!) after .380BA spring training?--its obviously a better lineup defensively and offensively ... and puts one of our DHs in the field in his most comfortable position-so why is Sox mgmt like an ostrich with its head in the ground (or up its a__)?!?!?

In either line-up, Jose is the weakest link. At SS, regardless of how comfortable he is there, he's still the 36 error man, and at 3rd, he's out of his element.

Daver
04-09-2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


In either line-up, Jose is the weakest link. At SS, regardless of how comfortable he is there, he's still the 36 error man, and at 3rd, he's out of his element.

Basing a players defensive ability based on errors is foolish,as well as inaccurate.

Kilroy
04-09-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by daver


Basing a players defensive ability based on errors is foolish,as well as inaccurate.

Fill me in on the better way to measure it then.

Mathew
04-09-2002, 04:41 PM
Here it comes again, you'll hear something to the effect of Puss Arm has the range of a 3 toed sloth and the arm of the average cooked spaghetti,

But then again what the hell do I know?

voodoochile
04-09-2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Fill me in on the better way to measure it then.

There isn't one quantifiable stat that tells you whether a SS is a good or bad defensive player. You have to look at all of them (RF, E, ZR, etc.) Then you have to watch the player play and see if you like what you see (actually, it should go the other way around).

Still, there are no simple cookbook answers for figuring it out. Watching Jose play SS it was clear he was not a bad fielder, but detractors have blown his error totals and FLD% out of proportion and ignored the rest of the stats.

Not saying Jose is a better SS than Clayton defensively - though I personally believe he is at least AS GOOD.

There are no simple solutions to this situation - you need to learn about the various stats that are available and then compare them between players using 3 year averages as the best measuring stick.

This is again just IMO...

FarWestChicago
04-09-2002, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by daver


Basing a players defensive ability based on errors is foolish,as well as inaccurate. The FOB's will never stop. They are relentless.

Kilroy
04-09-2002, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Not saying Jose is a better SS than Clayton defensively - though I personally believe he is at least AS GOOD.

Sorry people. I sure didn't intend to start one of "those" threads again. Sometimes its posted and you're off doing something else before it occurs to you.

Dadawg_77
04-10-2002, 12:39 PM
I am taking this back to topic of the post, how did Royce fare after the MVP chants? Maybe the fans mocking him with the chants of MVP forced him to work on his hitting. Maybe it is time to mock Royce agai, early so he avoids the whole under 100 ba this year.

FarmerAndy
04-10-2002, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I am taking this back to topic of the post, how did Royce fare after the MVP chants? Maybe the fans mocking him with the chants of MVP forced him to work on his hitting. Maybe it is time to mock Royce agai, early so he avoids the whole under 100 ba this year.

If Royce is still looking poor at the plate in a couple of weeks, I'll boo and chant along with you. But, I think it is tasteless for fans to boo any player in a Sox uniform during opening day, even Royce. On opening day we need to show our support for this team, the WHOLE team.

In fact, go ahead and boo Royce on Saturday, but on opening day let's show some class and welcome these guys home by showing 100% support for all of them.

RichieRichAllen
04-10-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy


If Royce is still looking poor at the plate in a couple of weeks, I'll boo and chant along with you. But, I think it is tasteless for fans to boo any player in a Sox uniform during opening day, even Royce. On opening day we need to show our support for this team, the WHOLE team.

In fact, go ahead and boo Royce on Saturday, but on opening day let's show some class and welcome these guys home by showing 100% support for all of them.

No sense in stopping now, Farmer Man. They're on a roll! Whoo doogie.

Of course, we're talking about the difference between a totally-biased message board here and supporting your team up front and close there. Wonder if they get the difference?

Here's to the opposite-side spectrum of the benign "Go You Cubbies" fan. :gulp:

FarmerAndy
04-11-2002, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen



Here's to the opposite-side spectrum of the benign "Go You Cubbies" fan. :gulp:

I think I can drink to that. :gulp: