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MCHSoxFan
09-02-2007, 09:33 PM
I see that there are a lot of people posting things about how KW has a TON of work to do in order for the Sox to be even a just a little better that this season. Does anybody believe that the Sox will improve a lot, no matter how much work is involved, for 2008? I think there is talent on this team. However, nobody really showed it season. Am I alone in thinking this?

Andy T Clown
09-02-2007, 09:37 PM
This is what I am waiting for..:gulp:

Lip Man 1
09-02-2007, 09:42 PM
Without seeing what moves are made I don't think you can answer the question.

From a practical standpoint, the smart-ass answer would be 'how can they do any worse?'

Lip

JB98
09-02-2007, 09:44 PM
I'm sure they'll be better in 2008. Good enough to win? Well, I need to see some major offseason moves before I can be confident.

nccwsfan
09-02-2007, 09:52 PM
As far as they've fallen this season there's no reason to believe that with the right moves they could work themselves back up to respectability/contention in 2008. No way to know this for another 5 months though...

chisoxfanatic
09-02-2007, 09:58 PM
It's hard to believe that a team with so many good players can collectively slump for a second year in a row, so I think they'll at least be better. How much better can't be answered until we see what goes on during the offseason.

wealz07
09-02-2007, 10:10 PM
Too old, too much payroll committed to win in '08. Hindsight being what it is, Williams should have traded Buehrle, Dye, and Vazquez at the deadline. It's a 3-5 year rebuilding project in my opinion.

WhiteSox5187
09-02-2007, 10:14 PM
If Paulie, JD, AJ, Buerhle, and Javy play like they CAN and like they've shown in the past than we'll be heads and tails better than this year. But whether or not we'll be good enough to win, that's a different question and will depend largely on the moves we make in the off season.

JB98
09-02-2007, 10:17 PM
If Paulie, JD, AJ, Buerhle, and Javy play like they CAN and like they've shown in the past than we'll be heads and tails better than this year. But whether or not we'll be good enough to win, that's a different question and will depend largely on the moves we make in the off season.

I think the supporting cast has been a bigger problem than the front-line guys. I'm pleased with the years from Buehrle and Javy, especially in the case of Vazquez I don't expect much more.

WhiteSox5187
09-02-2007, 10:23 PM
I think the supporting cast has been a bigger problem than the front-line guys. I'm pleased with the years from Buehrle and Javy, especially in the case of Vazquez I don't expect much more.
Buerhle and Javy have had good years but Paulie, JD and AJ have struggled an awful lot this year and they certainly are front line guys. But you know, when the front line guys struggle (which they will inevitably do throughout the course of the season) you need the supporting cast to pick them up. And they haven't done that either. So you're right about that, but I'm saying if those guys just play like they did in '05 and '06 we'll have a good team (maybe 85 wins) and if you get the right guys around them, we could be VERY good.

Lip Man 1
09-02-2007, 10:27 PM
Wealz:

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) the White Sox can't afford to take 3-5 years to 'rebuild.' The fans base won't stand for it and the franchise can not afford to go back to the days of drawing 1.8 million for the season.

Lip

viagracat
09-02-2007, 10:29 PM
They'll be better next year, but a worst-to-first scenario is out of the question.

But they have the building blocks already in place (Buehrle, Dye, Konerko, etc) and with a better supporting cast, as well as better performances from some of the vets, you will see reasons for optimism next year.

Never stop believing.

JB98
09-02-2007, 10:31 PM
Buerhle and Javy have had good years but Paulie, JD and AJ have struggled an awful lot this year and they certainly are front line guys. But you know, when the front line guys struggle (which they will inevitably do throughout the course of the season) you need the supporting cast to pick them up. And they haven't done that either. So you're right about that, but I'm saying if those guys just play like they did in '05 and '06 we'll have a good team (maybe 85 wins) and if you get the right guys around them, we could be VERY good.

When our big boys have gotten hot, all they've done is hit solo home runs. The top of the order has done a horrible job this year. Several players have been in those 1-2 spots. None have performed well.

Earlier in the week, I mentioned Thome had a strong series in Texas. However, he didn't knock anybody in but himself. We lost all three games. That's typical of this season.

wealz07
09-02-2007, 10:43 PM
Wealz:

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) the White Sox can't afford to take 3-5 years to 'rebuild.' The fans base won't stand for it and the franchise can not afford to go back to the days of drawing 1.8 million for the season.

Lip

You're not giving Sox fans enough credit. They know this has to be torn down and rebuilt.

viagracat
09-02-2007, 11:00 PM
Wealz:

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) the White Sox can't afford to take 3-5 years to 'rebuild.' The fans base won't stand for it and the franchise can not afford to go back to the days of drawing 1.8 million for the season.

Lip

Well, since there's still some goodwill from 2005, I think a 3-year project is acceptable as long as improvement is evident throughout the time. Worst-to-first in one season almost never happens; even a two year timeline for something like that is pretty dramatic. 3 years though; yeah, they better have their **** together by the end of that time. If it takes longer than that to be a competitor again or if nothing is working out for the Sox the next couple of years, then I will agree they'll have some rough sledding around here. In Chicago, the Sox are normally guilty until proven innocent.

Tragg
09-02-2007, 11:04 PM
It's highly unlikely the Sox aren't improved next year.
Still, what Williams does with CF, SS, LF, bullpen and bench and leadoff hitter will determine how good. Lot of holes to fill.

wealz07
09-02-2007, 11:24 PM
It's highly unlikely the Sox aren't improved next year.
Still, what Williams does with CF, SS, LF, bullpen and bench and leadoff hitter will determine how good. Lot of holes to fill.

Too many holes to fill. It's just too much. CF, SS, 2B and 3B are huge holes and they happen to be four of the toughest positions to fill. Then that bullpen ... They're going to have to fill some of these internally. Crede, Richar, and I guess Aardsma are the best options for that.

Tragg
09-02-2007, 11:33 PM
Too many holes to fill. It's just too much. CF, SS, 2B and 3B are huge holes and they happen to be four of the toughest positions to fill. Then that bullpen ... They're going to have to fill some of these internally. Crede, Richar, and I guess Aardsma are the best options for that.
Well, there's FAgency; we could trade a starter. WE could use some young pitchers in the pen (Gio, Egbert) until they move to the rotation.
I think Richar's a keeper. Fields can hit - just find a position.
I hope Sweeney, some young pitchers and Anderson (if healthy) all play in September.
Most likely it's too much; but it could come together.

We signed Dye and MB, so we're going to try to win next year. However, I hope we do it without trading our best young players....And I think we can make a reasonable go at it without trading our best young players.
Caveat: trade away if it's our young player for someone else's young player.

jabrch
09-02-2007, 11:33 PM
Without seeing what moves are made I don't think you can answer the question.

From a practical standpoint, the smart-ass answer would be 'how can they do any worse?'

Lip

Actually Lip - I agree with that 100%. I don't see how it is possible that we'd be worse than we have been this year...

Frontman
09-02-2007, 11:46 PM
Been a Sox fan since I was born. Not about to start thinking that "Nah, they can't do anything right. How can KW improve the team enough to be competitive?"

They'll be back in the hunt next season.

Just how far into it is what determines if its worth it! :wink:

Hitmen77
09-02-2007, 11:57 PM
I think KW has to fill huge glaring holes at SS, CF, and bullpen and then hope the rest of the guys either rebound from off years (PK, Dye), come back from injuries (Crede), improve over their rookie year (Richar, Danks), and that someone like Floyd or Gio clicks as our new 5th starter.

Not impossible, but a lot to hope for.

102605
09-03-2007, 01:02 AM
If this guy is playing LF we will win in 2008.


http://www.jcb-mep.com/05award/images/fukudome3.jpg

WhiteSox5187
09-03-2007, 01:43 AM
If this guy is playing LF we will win in 2008.


http://www.jcb-mep.com/05award/images/fukudome3.jpg
What do we do with Fields then? I mean, out of all our young guys he IS the most valuable one trade wise. Are we willing to part with a little bit of future for a little bit of present??

Man Soo Lee
09-03-2007, 02:33 AM
I think the supporting cast has been a bigger problem than the front-line guys.

Yep. Just look at where the Sox rank in OPS by position:

C -(25th in MLB, 10th in AL), AJ's numbers are slightly above average, backups have been horrible
1B-(10th, 2nd)
2B-(23rd, 11th)
3B-(29th, 13th)
SS-(28th, 12th)
LF-(25th, 10th)
CF-(30th, 14th), last by a huge margin--58 points from next team, 150 points below league average
RF-(8th, 5th)
DH-(3rd in AL)

Konerko, Dye, and Thome have given the Sox above average production relative to their positions despite having off years. AJ is about average.

The core players can be better, but the problem is that every other position on the field has been awful.

wealz07
09-03-2007, 10:13 AM
Thome and Dye can't be counted on to carry the offense. They're injuries waiting to happen. Not to mention their skills will be deteriorating with age.

soxinem1
09-03-2007, 10:35 AM
Without seeing what moves are made I don't think you can answer the question.

From a practical standpoint, the smart-ass answer would be 'how can they do any worse?'

Lip

I remember after the 2003 disappointment, a lot of us expected KW to have a busy off-season.

He did nothing.

Then after 2004, KW had the busiest and most sucessful off-season in his tenure. The needs were there, and he addressed them.

This off-season will definitely show how committed to returning to contender status JR and KW are. At minimum, there should be a 10-12 player changeover from this year's roster.

If they do nothing, then this season may well carry over to 2008.

To me, seeing if the Sox go into the FA foray is the most telling sign, as KW has never been a partaker in this venue. His forte is trades. I could definitely envision guys like Jason Bay, Miguel Tejada, Edgar Renteria, Daniel Cabrera, Shane Victorino, Kaz Matsui, or Willie Tavaras being his targets. Some of these players we never discuss. No one saw Podsednik coming here after 2004, or Iguchi and a few others.

I think some players that don't even get mentioned on our wish list will be wearing White Sox uniforms in 2008, and I believe that is more likely a path this team will take.

LITTLE NELL
09-03-2007, 10:47 AM
One of the things that must happen is finding a real good lead off man and a real good number 2 guy both with high on base percentages.(2005 comes to mind and so does Aparicio and Fox). If you have guys constantly on base it gives your 3-4-5 hitters a lot more fast balls to see.If Pods and Erstad hadnt been hurt so much this year I think we would have won a lot more games. For the rest of this year I'd like to see Owens and Richar in the 1 and 2 spots and see what happens. If they could do the job I'd stay one more year with Paulie, Thome and Dye as the 3-4-5 guys.The bullpen is another story. You just never know about a bullpen in any given year. Pilotte and Cotts were fantastic in 05 and in 06 could'nt get me out. The same guys we have this year could turn it around next year, its a crap shoot when it come to bullpens.

HerzogVon
09-03-2007, 11:33 AM
Yep. Just look at where the Sox rank in OPS by position:

C -(25th in MLB, 10th in AL), AJ's numbers are slightly above average, backups have been horrible
1B-(10th, 2nd)
2B-(23rd, 11th)
3B-(29th, 13th)
SS-(28th, 12th)
LF-(25th, 10th)
CF-(30th, 14th), last by a huge margin--58 points from next team, 150 points below league average
RF-(8th, 5th)
DH-(3rd in AL)



BAH! You can take all those stats, toss in 7 bucks ~ ( I'm guessing, as it's been awhile since I've been out ) ~ and buy yourself a nice imported beer at the nearest upscale Pub. That's what they're worth.

This team is too old and too slow. Holes up the middle, yes! ( As well as maybe a few in Ozzie's head? ) Speaking of which; how is he supposed to regain the player's respect after a year like this? It ain't gonna happen. No, a total rebuilding is necessary.

Now we come to the real problem; who's going to do it? Kenny, the architect of this mess? The guy who traded Rowand, acquired Thome and who's ego prevented Frank Thomas from finishing his career in a WS uniform? The flap-mouth who talks "grinder" baseball, and then goes out and gets stiffs? The dunderhead who has presided over the total demise of the farm system while stocking spastic armed pitchers?

OK, you tell me...:(:

TomBradley72
09-03-2007, 11:48 AM
We don't have a CF
We don't have a SS
I'm not sold on Richar...at least as the starting 2B on a champion
Thome, Dye, Konerko and AJ will be a year older
Counting on Crede coming back 100% from back surgery
A young 3B will be our LF
We don't have a legitimate #4 or #5 starter
We need to add 2-3 arms for the bullpen
Our manager may have lost his team this year
Not much we can count on from the farm system.
We don't have much to offer as trade baitNot sure if we can return to .500 next year...much less contend vs. Cleveland and Detroit.

102605
09-03-2007, 01:17 PM
What do we do with Fields then? I mean, out of all our young guys he IS the most valuable one trade wise. Are we willing to part with a little bit of future for a little bit of present??

No I like Fields a lot. Too bad they never tried him at 2B. Having him as a 4th OF/back 3B wouldnt be a bad option though. Between Thome and JD and Konerko getting a little older, all 3 might hit the 15 day DL at some point in 2008 anyways.

I'm just a Fukedome fan :smile:

RockJock07
09-03-2007, 02:03 PM
It's hard to believe that a team with so many good players can collectively slump for a second year in a row, so I think they'll at least be better. How much better can't be answered until we see what goes on during the offseason.

That's a great post. This season was hinged on the bullpen but the offense is the one spot no one thought the Sox would have problems with. Who thought that this offense would tank as bad as it has? I don't want to buy into the "they are getting old" crap because this isn't football, Konerko, AJ, Dye, and even Thome can all hit and have done so throughout their careers. It was just a bad year all around and kenny put all his eggs in one basket and he got burned.

I want to believe 08 will be better, and i think it will be......I hope

JB98
09-03-2007, 04:12 PM
Yep. Just look at where the Sox rank in OPS by position:

C -(25th in MLB, 10th in AL), AJ's numbers are slightly above average, backups have been horrible
1B-(10th, 2nd)
2B-(23rd, 11th)
3B-(29th, 13th)
SS-(28th, 12th)
LF-(25th, 10th)
CF-(30th, 14th), last by a huge margin--58 points from next team, 150 points below league average
RF-(8th, 5th)
DH-(3rd in AL)

Konerko, Dye, and Thome have given the Sox above average production relative to their positions despite having off years. AJ is about average.

The core players can be better, but the problem is that every other position on the field has been awful.

Those numbers back up my earlier assertion. Sure, Konerko, Thome and Dye could have been better. Maybe they would have been had someone around them stepped up a bit.

HomeFish
09-03-2007, 06:15 PM
If no moves are made, they'll get worse, because the aging players will be a year older. But it'd be unfair to make any sort of prediction until offseason moves are done.

delben91
09-03-2007, 07:27 PM
Speaking strictly from a standings point of view, I doubt they could get much worse. 2nd to worst record in the majors is hard to fall from.

A. Cavatica
09-03-2007, 07:33 PM
I don't believe in the Easter Bunny either.

chisoxmike
09-03-2007, 07:48 PM
Can they be worse? Sure they can. I doubt it though. This isn't a fair question to ask right now. But, there are a TON of holes to fill, so its easy to say they wont "win" in 2008.

Granted, after the 2004 season ended there were a lot of holes on the team. Kenny was able to fill ALL the holes: LF, RF, 2B, 5th starter, TWO catchers, and a bullpen. So, he's been up to the task before. For '08, I'd say they need a LF, CF, SS, 2B, 5th starter, and 2-3 bullpen arms.

We'll see...

WhiteSox5187
09-03-2007, 08:45 PM
Can they be worse? Sure they can. I doubt it though. This isn't a fair question to ask right now. But, there are a TON of holes to fill, so its easy to say they wont "win" in 2008.

Granted, after the 2004 season ended there were a lot of holes on the team. Kenny was able to fill ALL the holes: LF, RF, 2B, 5th starter, TWO catchers, and a bullpen. So, he's been up to the task before. For '08, I'd say they need a LF, CF, SS, 2B, 5th starter, and 2-3 bullpen arms.

We'll see...
The most glaring holes are short, center, the bullpen and a leadoff guy. We have a couple of guys in the minors who might be able to do the job for fifth starter, the jury is still out on Richar and JD and Fields can be serviceable corner outfielders.

DoItForDanPasqua
09-03-2007, 10:16 PM
Of course not with this current team, but most of the key player from 2005 are still here.

Adding a solid set up man and middle reliever would be good start. Then the outfield has to be addressed. I would try getting guys who can hitter higher than their weight and own baseball gloves.

soxwon
09-03-2007, 10:45 PM
Without seeing what moves are made I don't think you can answer the question.

From a practical standpoint, the smart-ass answer would be 'how can they do any worse?'

Lip

WORST to FIRST!!!
hey the cubs are doing it!!!
No reason why we cant.

thomas35forever
09-04-2007, 12:30 AM
If no moves are made, they'll get worse, because the aging players will be a year older. But it'd be unfair to make any sort of prediction until offseason moves are done.
I agree with this statement, but I would also like to point that this is a typical HomeFish statement.

It's Time
09-04-2007, 12:40 AM
Of course they'll be better, how could they not be? Make no mistake about the embarrassment this season has caused KW and JR. They will fix what needs to be fixed, or at least try to.

This is a big offseason for Kenny Williams.

Frontman
09-04-2007, 07:02 AM
It's a HUGE offseason for KW. I have a feeling that if the losing continues next year, we'd see some front-office and coaching staff moves in the fall/winter of 2008.

viagracat
09-04-2007, 09:02 AM
WORST to FIRST!!!
hey the cubs are doing it!!!
No reason why we cant.

Well, the Cubs haven't done it yet and if they were in any other place than the Comedy Central; they'd already be saying (again): "Wait until next year".

Granted, the AL Central ended up not being as tough as advertised, but the Sox are several positions, at least one starting pitcher and most of a bullpen away from competing with Cleveland and Detroit, if things stay the same. Kenny has a lot of work to do over the winter, and Ozzie has to convince everyone, particularly the players, that he was no flash in the pan and still is to be taken seriously.

In the past I would've said no way would all this happen. Now it's a different time with a taste of a recent championship, JR having graduated from charm school and aggressive front office management.

We'll see. :gulp:

nsolo
09-04-2007, 10:23 AM
I'm sure they'll be better in 2008. Good enough to win? Well, I need to see some major offseason moves before I can be confident.

I agree, but what players would have to be moved to reload with quality players to plug our holes?

We do have some good players, and its hard to believe that they would suffer a two season in a row slump, but some of these same players might be sent packing to return others capable of plugging out HUGE holes. That creates a catch 22. I say this as a probable scenario as I personally don't see us spending a ton of money to get free agent superstars.

Lip Man 1
09-04-2007, 10:30 AM
I thought this was an interesting comment from Don Cooper regarding next season's bullpen. It's from the Tribune story by Dave Van Dyke:

"Next year we've got to come with the mind-set that tryouts are over if we expect to do anything. When you have 'hope' and 'wish' for guys [to be better], then they're not the [right] guys. It's unacceptable what went on this year. And, believe me, I'll take the [stuff]. I'm the pitching coach when things are going good and I'm the pitching coach when things are going bad. This cannot happen again. And it ain't going to happen again, not like this."

Lip

Chez
09-04-2007, 10:38 AM
I think the Sox will be much better in 2008. But objectively speaking, man-for-man Detroit and Cleveland are currently so much better than the Sox, I don't see how anyone can rationally expect the Sox to win the Central in 2008. Could it happen? Of course. But, as previously pointed out by others, we have so much money invested in our "core," it will be difficult to make substantial upgrades at all of the positions where the Sox need help.

rdivaldi
09-04-2007, 01:59 PM
Williams should have traded Buehrle, Dye, and Vazquez at the deadline.

:thud:

Wow, thank G-d that didn't happen. It's been a bad year, but let's not get crazy...

Dolanski
09-04-2007, 02:04 PM
Too old, too much payroll committed to win in '08. Hindsight being what it is, Williams should have traded Buehrle, Dye, and Vazquez at the deadline. It's a 3-5 year rebuilding project in my opinion.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAA:whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::whi ner::whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner:

Bitter much? Trade everyone and cry about how much we suck. Why don't you do everyone a favor and jump on the Cubs bandwagon.

Flight #24
09-04-2007, 03:02 PM
IMO the Sox have a couple of choices:

#1 - Spend some significant money. This means going out and getting a bullpen (2-3 arms to go with Jenks and 2-3 of Thornton, Wasserman, Logan). It also means finding an SS, and 1-2 OFs including a leadoff hitter. The most effective way of doing this, IMO is shelling out for ARod. The true CFs aren't leadoff guys and IMO are either far less productive or aren't going to be near worth what they're paid. Getting that kind of production out of SS also lets you skimp a bit at the other positions. If you go with an Eckstein-type at SS, you need to add a CF and probably upgrade at LF or 3B/2B. If you can find a way to trade Jose (doable if he keeps up his recent improvement), you can add ARod and some relief arms with a payroll in the $115M range.

#2 - Try and reload. This involves basically hoping that you get enough bounce back from Dye, Thome, Konerko, Crede, Garland, Contreras as well as significant improvements from Owens, Richar, Danks. You don't increase payroll much if at all, and if you can move a pitcher, maybe you go out and get a CF (along with the bullpen). The problem is that the division stays very tough, which means this option keeps you competitive but IMO doesn't give a great chance of actually making the postseason. And by adding another older player or 2(Hunter, Cameron, Eckstein, Vizquel, etc.), you're looking at a 1-2 year window at best before needing an even bigger retooling.

#3 - Rebuild. Keep Buehrle, Konerko, Vazquez, Jenks, Fields, Konerko, Dye. Trade anyone else for youth, commit to the youth in 2008, and hope you get enough real players to make things work by 09-10. Then you maybe resign Paulie & Javy on the back end of their careers and see if they can be non-core components to a title run.

#2 to me isn't really much of an option. I don't think a Hunter/Eckstein combo makes the team a real contender, it just keeps them a bit above .500 so forestall a serious attendance decline.

soxwon
09-04-2007, 04:13 PM
Well, the Cubs haven't done it yet and if they were in any other place than the Comedy Central; they'd already be saying (again): "Wait until next year".

Granted, the AL Central ended up not being as tough as advertised, but the Sox are several positions, at least one starting pitcher and most of a bullpen away from competing with Cleveland and Detroit, if things stay the same. Kenny has a lot of work to do over the winter, and Ozzie has to convince everyone, particularly the players, that he was no flash in the pan and still is to be taken seriously.

In the past I would've said no way would all this happen. Now it's a different time with a taste of a recent championship, JR having graduated from charm school and aggressive front office management.

We'll see. :gulp:

The cubs are currently doing it!!!
Im expecting them to totally blow it though.
John Howell n WIND this AM said- it's the begining of the end of the cubs.

russ99
09-05-2007, 07:04 AM
If this guy is playing LF we will win in 2008.

http://www.jcb-mep.com/05award/images/fukudome3.jpg



I can't understand you guys' facination with Fukudome. I'd rather have a major leaguer added to the outfield. Torii Hunter, please. :D:

Plus it's a proven fact that Japanese league batting numbers don't amount to too much in MLB. Matsui had massive numbers in Japan, and he's average here. I don't see him as a MVP or even a Yankee MVP candidate.

Then you have guys like Ishii and Iguchi, who put up good numbers in Japan, but only fair numbers here. Iguchi was billed as a power hitter when he came here, but only had a few 20 HR seasons.

The only guy you can say broke out of that mold is Ichiro, but he's a special player that comes along once or twice in a generation. Nothing I've seen tells me that Fukudome has that kind of skill. If we did a full pull-down rebuild I could see taking a chance, but the Sox really need an experienced hitter in the outfield.

Plus how much is it going to cost to post him and what kind of salary does he want?? Matsuzaka set a huge precedent... and every decent Japanese player is going to try and break the bank coming to MLB in the future.

As for the Sox, I think the best way to be a contender in 2008 is to deal a top player like Thome, Konerko or Garland and get 3 major league or near major league players. That would fill a few of the holes and decrease the amount of money (potentially limited by JR) Kenny has to spend in free agency to fill the others.

Whoever titled this thread - you sound like a Cubs fan. :tongue: Sox fans don't "believe". We cheer if they're good, we boo if they stink.

TomBradley72
09-05-2007, 04:50 PM
WORST to FIRST!!!
hey the cubs are doing it!!!
No reason why we cant.

A true sign we've had a mediocre season.....the Cubs are our role model. :rolleyes: