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View Full Version : We need to think big when making changes


BainesHOF
09-02-2007, 12:04 AM
Simply dumping Contreras and replacing Uribe with Eckstein isn't going to cure what's ailing this team. It's disturbing to read that many players haven't cared about winning dating back to September of last season. They're certainly playing like they don't care now.

In any case, I think it would be a serious mistake to start next season with a turtle lineup once again of Thome, Konerko, Dye, Pierzynski and Crede. Unless they all pound the ball, it's tough to consistently win with such a slow lineup. We've got to rid ourselves of at least one of them and it would probably be best to part with two.

That's when Fields figures into this. Let's face it: He looks pretty much to be a butcher at third. Sure he'll improve, but I fear he's never even going to be average defensively. And to think he's going to do any better in left field isn't realistic. However, I think Fields could be at least an average first baseman.

Get my drift?

I'm all for trading Konerko in order to get some real quality in return. Think of what we could get for him and maybe even Garland. We should be able to get a top-notch shortstop. And maybe a dependable reliever or a major-league outfielder. The point is we have to trade quality to get quality in return. I like Konerko, but let's be honest. He has to hit 40 HRs and drive in 100 runs for him to be truly valuable. Otherwise, lesser production is basically a wash when compared to his double plays, base-clogging running and no-range defense. Plus it's been made crystal clear this season that his captainship is merely a title. And my guess is he's one of the players who's become a little too comfortable.

Anyway, we have to think big if we're going to correct the current mess. Thome can be dealt as well. He's become terrible against lefties, his extra-base production is pretty much limited to home runs, and of course he's slow on the bases.

This team needs a major overhaul.

Patrick134
09-02-2007, 12:52 AM
It's not just a matter of "blow this team up" here. Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make. Of all the slumping vets this season, at least a couple will have much better years next season.

nccwsfan
09-02-2007, 12:59 AM
But the gist of his argument is accurate- right now 6 of the 9 players that would be in the projected 08' lineup are station to station hitters. Too early to speculate, but I would agree that it makes sense to part with at least one of these players (Thome/Konerko) provided they get reasonable talent in return. Same goes for Garland.

Nellie_Fox
09-02-2007, 01:06 AM
But the gist of his argument is accurate- right now 6 of the 9 players that would be in the projected 08' lineup are station to station hitters. Too early to speculate, but I would agree that it makes sense to part with at least one of these players (Thome/Konerko) provided they get reasonable talent in return. Same goes for Garland.The Sox won't get anything for Thome unless they pay most of the salary, and maybe not even then, because Thome is clearly on the downside of his career. His recurring back problems are not going to get better, and he's pretty much useless against left handers.

Noneck
09-02-2007, 01:19 AM
The Sox won't get anything for Thome unless they pay most of the salary, and maybe not even then, because Thome is clearly on the downside of his career. His recurring back problems are not going to get better, and he's pretty much useless against left handers.


I've been preaching that for awhile, I wish people would finally realize that Thome and Contreras are next to impossible to trade unless the Sox pick up a huge chunk of their salary and then they get a bag of beans in return.

ZombieRob
09-02-2007, 01:37 AM
I've been preaching that for awhile, I wish people would finally realize that Thome and Contreras are next to impossible to trade unless the Sox pick up a huge chunk of their salary and then they get a bag of beans in return.
Agreed.Sox could be in a world of hurt next year.Their value as a team isn't that high.

Grzegorz
09-02-2007, 04:59 AM
The Sox won't get anything for Thome unless they pay most of the salary, and maybe not even then, because Thome is clearly on the downside of his career. His recurring back problems are not going to get better, and he's pretty much useless against left handers.

I totally agree with this post and the other post pointing out the "all or nothing" middle of the lineup. Thome cannot be moved so that is why he has to be used selectively next year.

Rotating Thome and Dye at DH is the best option going. Of course when Dye is DH there will need to be a competent right fielder in the lineup (not Pods, Ozuna, or Erstad).

Brian Sweeney or Brian Anderson (I feel he'll be dealt on the off season) has to step up to the plate and contribute next year.

As for Contreras, if he proves that he cannot contribute in any manner do not let him see the mound just to get "your monies worth".

He's a sunk cost; let him go and focus on the day to day contributors that can help the Chicago White Sox get back into playoff contention.

Can we please drop the David Eckstein idea? Trade for Jack Wilson use him for a few years. The key is to get the scouting department to perform above and beyond their level of performance in the past.

Jeez, if the organization cannot field a team to beat the Twins how about hiring some of the scouting staff that builds those Twins teams?

LITTLE NELL
09-02-2007, 05:01 AM
Keep Beurhle, Konerko, Fields, AJ, Jenks, Vasquez and Crede. We need to start over like 1971. It will be a little harder because of contract issues but we cant bring back most of these guys.

wassagstdu
09-02-2007, 06:59 AM
I think the first half of next year will be make-or-break for the Sox. If they come out of the gate playing well and competitive, all will be forgiven. If 2007 continues they are finished for a long time. The farm system is not going to contribute to 2008 or to the rebuilding. It will have to be done by free agency and smart dealing. If I were JR I would see that this is the time for some deficit spending. Eat some contracts if necessary and overpay. Also, start investing in rebuilding a first-class farm system that knows how to evaluate talent and prepare it to play at the major league level. If you don't, and if 2007 continues into 2008, your revenue will tank and it will be impossible to correct the fundamental problems for a long time.

I trust KW and Ozzie to know how to do all of that. My only reservation is that KW has only shown skills as a bargain-hunter. Can the organization recognize and pay for real first-rate talent?

The 2007 zombiesox have put the future of the franchise in jeopardy, but the revenue carryover from 2005 still makes it possible to correct the situation. If that doesn't happen quickly the opportunity will pass and we will be looking at a long, dark winter.

Frater Perdurabo
09-02-2007, 07:00 AM
I've said before that trading Paulie could be wise because he has value and would bring value in return. I don't think the Sox have to deal Konerko to improve the offense, though. Doing so is one means to the desired end, but there are other means.

Start by getting speed at the top of the order. Where there's smoke, there's fire: There must have been some discussion of a Furcal for Contreras swap. Furcal makes this offense a lot better.

Richar can handle the bat. He doesn't have a high average (yet), but he takes balls, works counts and fouls off marginal strikes. He should do fine as the #2 hitter. That allows Fields to drop down in the order, where he can better use his decent speed (he's not Pods, but he might swipe 20 bases in 2008). Finally, with Dye and Fields in LF and RF, defense in CF is paramount. I'll be crucifed for saying this, but Anderson fits the bill as a #9 hitter. He hasn't learned to hit MLB pitching (yet), but as Daver said, you can't learn to do that in the minors. He does take a fair number of walks, so he has the patience to sit back and let Fields try to steal a base from time to time. Anderson also hits a good number of doubles. With Fields' decent speed, many of those could be RBI doubles. When Fields is on base, Anderson will see more fastballs, which will help his average improve.

Against LHP, Thome sits, Fields can DH and Ozuna can play LF. Lineups:

vs. RHP: Furcal, Richar, Thome, PK, JD, AJ, Crede, Fields, Anderson
vs. LHP: Furcal, Richar, PK, JD, Crede, Ozuna, Fields, Anderson

We know the kinds of numbers PK, JD and AJ (and Crede if reasonably healthy) should produce. But with these lineups, I think you see some decent production from the bottom of the order, too, such as:

Ozuna (v. LHP only): 2 HR, 20 SB, 15 2B, .290 BA, .350 OBP
Fields: 30 HR, 20 SB, 30 2B, .250 BA
Anderson: 15 HR, 20 SB, 35 2B, .250 BA

eastchicagosoxfan
09-02-2007, 08:09 AM
I've been preaching that for awhile, I wish people would finally realize that Thome and Contreras are next to impossible to trade unless the Sox pick up a huge chunk of their salary and then they get a bag of beans in return.

I'm part of the same chior your preaching to.

A. Cavatica
09-02-2007, 10:14 AM
I completely agree that the Sox need to think big.

They need to get Ozzie some better ballplayers!

And then they need to get those ballplayers a better manager.

TomBradley72
09-02-2007, 12:51 PM
I'm in the "blow it up" camp. All this talk of "we're only a few players away" or "the hitters can't slump two years in a row can they?" is talk I heard in the 1984-86 years after the 1983 West Division Championship, in 1973-75 after the '72 season, in 2001-2003 after the 2000 season. It's analagous to the Bears after 1985 or the Cubs after the 1969 season...teams that were held together that never duplicated their peak.

KW has his work cut out for him because he's saddled with long term commitments he made to aging/declining players (Contreras, Thome), a mediocre farm system (that he has overseen for a decade), and a manager that is not exactly a perfect fit for rebuilding and based on this year's perforamance may have lost his team. Thinking that "minor surgery" will have us contending vs. Cleveland and Detroit in 2007 will only delay our rebuliding by a year. We're not the 2nd worst team in the major leagues because of an "off year". We're the 2nd worst team in MLB because that's how bad we are.

southside rocks
09-02-2007, 01:08 PM
Keep Beurhle, Konerko, Fields, AJ, Jenks, Vasquez and Crede. We need to start over like 1971. It will be a little harder because of contract issues but we cant bring back most of these guys.

I'd leave Konerko off that list, and add Danks to it.

I'm disappointed, big time, in Konerko's performance both on the field and off the field (in his captain role) this year. His most recent mush-mouth talk about 'how can I tell when somebody's not giving 100%' was absurd and it's hard not to feel like he's insulting the intelligence of the fans. JMO.

I think Danks is going to be an excellent pitcher for a long time; the question of course is, has he more value as a trade piece or as a part of the rotation? Bearing in mind the old adage that you don't trade pitching, you trade FOR pitching, I'd keep him.

LITTLE NELL
09-02-2007, 02:13 PM
I'd leave Konerko off that list, and add Danks to it.

I'm disappointed, big time, in Konerko's performance both on the field and off the field (in his captain role) this year. His most recent mush-mouth talk about 'how can I tell when somebody's not giving 100%' was absurd and it's hard not to feel like he's insulting the intelligence of the fans. JMO.

I think Danks is going to be an excellent pitcher for a long time; the question of course is, has he more value as a trade piece or as a part of the rotation? Bearing in mind the old adage that you don't trade pitching, you trade FOR pitching, I'd keep him.
Youre right I made a mistake not including Danks. I also feel the same way you do about Konerko as far as his leadership. He probably feels that since he is having a down year how can he call out anybody else. Whats really going on here is lack of talent and lots of inexperience Also our bench is a complete joke, why did we trade Macoviack?

JB98
09-02-2007, 05:05 PM
I'd leave Konerko off that list, and add Danks to it.

I'm disappointed, big time, in Konerko's performance both on the field and off the field (in his captain role) this year. His most recent mush-mouth talk about 'how can I tell when somebody's not giving 100%' was absurd and it's hard not to feel like he's insulting the intelligence of the fans. JMO.

I think Danks is going to be an excellent pitcher for a long time; the question of course is, has he more value as a trade piece or as a part of the rotation? Bearing in mind the old adage that you don't trade pitching, you trade FOR pitching, I'd keep him.

You have every right to feel disappointed about Konerko's on-field performance. He has not played up to his capabilities.

I don't hold any of that captain stuff against him. He never wanted the title. It was foisted upon him. People here have accused Paulie of knocking his teammates in the papers in the past. Now, you are knocking him for not knocking his teammates. I think it's all a bunch of hot air.

I don't really care what ballplayers say in the papers. You know what insults the intelligence of the fans? The garbage we hear from KW about "not being far away." We're 20 games out or whatever. Even a blind man can see that significant change is needed.

soxfan13
09-02-2007, 05:23 PM
I'd leave Konerko off that list, and add Danks to it.

I'm disappointed, big time, in Konerko's performance both on the field and off the field (in his captain role) this year. His most recent mush-mouth talk about 'how can I tell when somebody's not giving 100%' was absurd and it's hard not to feel like he's insulting the intelligence of the fans. JMO.

I think Danks is going to be an excellent pitcher for a long time; the question of course is, has he more value as a trade piece or as a part of the rotation? Bearing in mind the old adage that you don't trade pitching, you trade FOR pitching, I'd keep him.

If your going to use his quote to slam him at least use the whole quote and the correct quote, just not the small part that fits your reason for slamming him. His quote was "You have to be careful as a player to get on another guy's performance because you think his head wasn't in it. How do I know that? Ive had times where I wanted to give everything in the world to get something done, and I didn't. Its frustrating and people want answers, but sometimes there are no answers."

Yeah Konerko has struggled at times this year but by the end of the year he is not going to be that far off his career numbers. To slam his leadership ability because he is not a overly emotional is just beyond ridiculous. He proved his leadership ability years ago when he got all over Frank Thomas for not being a team player. So you know its there and just because its not as public, as alot of people here think it should, be doesnt mean it doesnt exist JMO

JB98
09-02-2007, 05:27 PM
If your going to use his quote to slam him at least use the whole quote and the correct quote, just not the small part that fits your reason for slamming him. His quote was "You have to be careful as a player to get on another guy's performance because you think his head wasn't in it. How do I know that? Ive had times where I wanted to give everything in the world to get something done, and I didn't. Its frustrating and people want answers, but sometimes there are no answers."

Yeah Konerko has struggled at times this year but by the end of the year he is not going to be that far off his career numbers. To slam his leadership ability because he is not a overly emotional is just beyond ridiculous. He proved his leadership ability years ago when he got all over Frank Thomas for not being a team player. So you know its there and just because its not as public, as alot of people here think it should, be doesnt mean it doesnt exist JMO

I also heard Konerko point out that it would be absurd for him to criticize guys for not knocking in big runs or whatever because he has failed as much as anyone himself this year. I agree with Paul on that, and we all know there would be a 500-post thread about Paul "needing to look in the mirror" if he called his teammates' effort/production into question.

southside rocks
09-02-2007, 05:31 PM
Yeah Konerko has struggled at times this year but by the end of the year he is not going to be that far off his career numbers. To slam his leadership ability because he is not a overly emotional is just beyond ridiculous. He proved his leadership ability years ago when he got all over Frank Thomas for not being a team player. So you know its there and just because its not as public, as alot of people here think it should, be doesnt mean it doesnt exist JMO

You are probably right. But sometimes all that can be done is to try and say the right things, when doing the right things is not an option (by that I mean that the Sox can't arbitrarily decide to start a 20-game win streak). And I am disappointed in Konerko's response in this situation. It's a minor disappointment, but this season, even the small stuff is grating.

Here's the thing: perception equals reality, to fans. If fans perceive the team as having quit, as mailing it in, then that's their reality. And it's possible to dismiss that, but it does have an effect on real things, like ticket sales for the next series or the next season.

So like it or not, players and management have to deal with perceptions. IMO the players, with very few exceptions, have done a bad job of that. And therefore I believe that the team IS mailing it in, IS without any emotion about this season -- because that's what I see. And I see no evidence to the contrary put forth by anybody.

Simply saying that perceptions are not necessarily reality is beside the point. In sports, emotions are at the bottom of a lot of fan decisions, and emotions are based on perceptions.

southside rocks
09-02-2007, 05:34 PM
I also heard Konerko point out that it would be absurd for him to criticize guys for not knocking in big runs or whatever because he has failed as much as anyone himself this year. I agree with Paul on that, and we all know there would be a 500-post thread about Paul "needing to look in the mirror" if he called his teammates' effort/production into question.

I for one don't want Konerko to start slamming his teammates. I want to see some indication from someone besides Ozzie that this season is absolutely infuriating, is the most enormous disappointment, is an embarrassment to every player there. Which, from what I read in the papers, is not the way the players feel. I think they should feel that way; and I simply agree with Paul Ladewski's column, that the players as well as the manager should be saying the things that Ozzie is saying. Not once have I heard one player this year say "wow, we're bad, we stink." It's all about how things are tough, one day at a time, etc. Which is fine as far as it goes, but this season has gone beyond that, IMO.

JB98
09-02-2007, 05:37 PM
You are probably right. But sometimes all that can be done is to try and say the right things, when doing the right things is not an option (by that I mean that the Sox can't arbitrarily decide to start a 20-game win streak). And I am disappointed in Konerko's response in this situation. It's a minor disappointment, but this season, even the small stuff is grating.

Here's the thing: perception equals reality, to fans. If fans perceive the team as having quit, as mailing it in, then that's their reality. And it's possible to dismiss that, but it does have an effect on real things, like ticket sales for the next series or the next season.

So like it or not, players and management have to deal with perceptions. IMO the players, with very few exceptions, have done a bad job of that. And therefore I believe that the team IS mailing it in, IS without any emotion about this season -- because that's what I see. And I see no evidence to the contrary put forth by anybody.

Simply saying that perceptions are not necessarily reality is beside the point. In sports, emotions are at the bottom of a lot of fan decisions, and emotions are based on perceptions.

Konerko is the guy who stands up and takes questions from the press every damn day. Believe me, several guys on the club are glad he does it, so they don't have to. Paul has basically two choices when asked whether the team is giving proper effort. He can give basically a non-answer, or he can throw his teammates under the bus. He chose the former. I think Paul realizes his inability to get big hits has hurt us this season, so that was the proper choice on his part.

JB98
09-02-2007, 05:41 PM
I for one don't want Konerko to start slamming his teammates. I want to see some indication from someone besides Ozzie that this season is absolutely infuriating, is the most enormous disappointment, is an embarrassment to every player there. Which, from what I read in the papers, is not the way the players feel. I think they should feel that way; and I simply agree with Paul Ladewski's column, that the players as well as the manager should be saying the things that Ozzie is saying. Not once have I heard one player this year say "wow, we're bad, we stink." It's all about how things are tough, one day at a time, etc. Which is fine as far as it goes, but this season has gone beyond that, IMO.

Buehrle said the team sucks after the 14-2 loss against Boston about eight days ago.

I work in the media, so take it from me: Don't assume the players feel a certain way based on how they handle the press. They often give non-answers just to get reporters away from them.

Think about it. If you were playing on a team that was this horse****, would you want to speak in a very public manner about it each and every day? Probably not. Konerko talks to reporters daily because he thinks it's part of his job. Right now, he's not enjoying it too much, and I think he's measuring his words. He doesn't handle things the same way as Ozzie, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. That doesn't mean Ozzie's way is wrong either. Paul and Ozzie are two very different men.

southside rocks
09-02-2007, 05:53 PM
Konerko is the guy who stands up and takes questions from the press every damn day. Believe me, several guys on the club are glad he does it, so they don't have to. Paul has basically two choices when asked whether the team is giving proper effort. He can give basically a non-answer, or he can throw his teammates under the bus. He chose the former. I think Paul realizes his inability to get big hits has hurt us this season, so that was the proper choice on his part.

Buehrle said the team sucks after the 14-2 loss against Boston about eight days ago.

I work in the media, so take it from me: Don't assume the players feel a certain way based on how they handle the press. They often give non-answers just to get reporters away from them.

Think about it. If you were playing on a team that was this horse****, would you want to speak in a very public manner about it each and every day? Probably not. Konerko talks to reporters daily because he thinks it's part of his job. Right now, he's not enjoying it too much, and I think he's measuring his words. He doesn't handle things the same way as Ozzie, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. That doesn't mean Ozzie's way is wrong either. Paul and Ozzie are two very different men.

Alright, I see the sense in what you're saying, and I won't throw my Konerko jersey on the barbecue grill ... yet. But I might remove the name lettering and replace it with the word "Overpaid." I'm just saying. :angry:

I can't wait until this season is over so I can begin to forget it.

TornLabrum
09-02-2007, 05:58 PM
Buehrle said the team sucks after the 14-2 loss against Boston about eight days ago.

I work in the media, so take it from me: Don't assume the players feel a certain way based on how they handle the press. They often give non-answers just to get reporters away from them.

Think about it. If you were playing on a team that was this horse****, would you want to speak in a very public manner about it each and every day? Probably not. Konerko talks to reporters daily because he thinks it's part of his job. Right now, he's not enjoying it too much, and I think he's measuring his words. He doesn't handle things the same way as Ozzie, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. That doesn't mean Ozzie's way is wrong either. Paul and Ozzie are two very different men.

Let me give you an analogy from "real" life to support you. As a teacher I often have parents come to me complaining about this teacher or that teacher. If I "threw the other teacher under the bus," what would my boss and anybody else say about me? I'll tel you exactly what they'd say: "He's unprofessional."

So what do you do? You give a non-answer, preferably, "Well, that's something you'll have to take up with that teacher." You certainly don't throw the other teacher under the bus.

Konerko has to work with the other players every day. If he'd throw any of them under the bus, he'd be just plain stupid. I'd attribute his non-answer to maturity since he didn't know better just a couple of years ago.

Frater Perdurabo
09-02-2007, 07:23 PM
He proved his leadership ability years ago when he got all over Frank Thomas for not being a team player.

Excuse me? He proved his leadership ability by calling out Frank? :rolling:

Paulie behaved like a classless ass when he called out Frank.

He also led many people to question his baseball intellect when he said that Royce Clayton was the best SS he ever played with.

Thankfully, his professionalism has improved since those brilliant episodes. I'd rather he not call out his teammates individually in the media, especially when he's too has suffered from an anemic bat with RISP.

JB98
09-02-2007, 07:26 PM
Excuse me? He proved his leadership ability by calling out Frank? :rolling:

Paulie behaved like a classless ass when he called out Frank.

He also led many people to question his baseball intellect when he said that Royce Clayton was the best SS he ever played with.

Thankfully, his professionalism has improved since those brilliant episodes.

Other than Uribe in 2005, we haven't had a lot of great defensive play at SS the last 10 years.

Frater Perdurabo
09-02-2007, 07:28 PM
Other than Uribe in 2005, we haven't had a lot of great defensive play at SS the last 10 years.

I agree, but IIRC he made that comment in 2005.

JB98
09-02-2007, 07:35 PM
I agree, but IIRC he made that comment in 2005.

Which was Juan's first-year as our fulltime SS.

Konerko has played with Caruso, Manos, Choice and Uribe in his career. Not much greatness there. Juan could be great defensively, but well, he's fond of making mental mistakes.

Frater Perdurabo
09-02-2007, 07:42 PM
Which was Juan's first-year as our fulltime SS.

Konerko has played with Caruso, Manos, Choice and Uribe in his career. Not much greatness there. Juan could be great defensively, but well, he's fond of making mental mistakes.

I don't disagree. But PK's comment about "the Choice" was a mental mistake, as well.

JB98
09-02-2007, 07:57 PM
I don't disagree. But PK's comment about "the Choice" was a mental mistake, as well.

He probably should have said nothing or given a non-answer, as he has done in recent interviews about this year's team. At the time, though, it was either Manos or Choice in terms of who the best SS was. IIRC, there was quite a bit of disagreement among Sox fans about that issue. I won't open that can of worms. :rolleyes:

Still, when PK said that stuff about Choice, people here assured me that the chemistry of the 2005 team was ruined. I disagreed, and I was proven correct on October 26 of that year. :cool:

kevin57
09-02-2007, 08:36 PM
In the past--when things were going swimmingly--the general opinion was that nobody, or virtually nobody, on this or any squad was "indispensable." Now that we stink, I hear (and understand) some fear of blowing up the whole thing and starting over.

It is a tough call. People are knocking Konerko, and for good reason. He could have a terrific year next year, so could Crede. At the same time, both have gone through long, long, LONG stretches of very mediocre offense.

Lots has been said about "Ozzieball" and whether such a creature exists. I think it does in that Ozzie likes to punch the ball through holes and do lots of hitting and running.
This team is not his type of fit.

Tragg
09-02-2007, 11:10 PM
Richar can handle the bat. He doesn't have a high average (yet), but he takes balls, works counts and fouls off marginal strikes. He should do fine as the #2 hitter. That allows Fields to drop down in the order, where he can better use his decent speed (he's not Pods, but he might swipe 20 bases in 2008).
It's time Richar gets promoted in the batting order and see what he can do with some Thome protection batting in the 2 hole. I think he's a player. Ozzie's batted him nothing but 7, 8 or 9. Put Fields 5 or 6 and put Ozzie's veteran slappers at the bottom of the order...if for no other reason Owens, Richar and Fields need the experience....Podsednik and Erstad do not.
I also agree that if the Sox really are going with Fields and Dye in the OF, knockdown D in CF is a must. But who's your leadoff hitter?
We'll also need to move Garland or Contreras, I would think.

Hitmen77
09-02-2007, 11:49 PM
But the gist of his argument is accurate- right now 6 of the 9 players that would be in the projected 08' lineup are station to station hitters. Too early to speculate, but I would agree that it makes sense to part with at least one of these players (Thome/Konerko) provided they get reasonable talent in return. Same goes for Garland.

I don't necessarily have a problem with Dye, PK, AJ, Crede, Thome, and Fields in our lineup for next year. The problem this year isn't simply that they are all base cloggers. It's that the first 3 have had very subpar years offensively, Crede was hurt, Thome (while putting up solid offensive numbers) missed about a month on the DL, and Fields is going through rookie growing pains.

As far as the non base cloggers go - Uribe is hitting .215. At 2B, Iguchi was not doing much offensively for us and Richar is hitting .200. CF and LF production has been crippled by repeated injuries to Pods and Erstad.

IF AJ, Dye, and Konerko to bounce back to near career norms next year, I don't have a problem with them in our lineup. Same with Crede if he can return to his pre-injury self. I'm confident that Fields will be even better next year and for Thome, we just need for him to avoid prolonged injuries. Yes, that's alot of IFs - but I don't think it really centers on the basepath speeds of these guys.

Also, we need the other 1/3 of the lineup to hit something better than .210 next year. That's where the Sox need to make big changes - at SS and CF (plus the bullpen). That's enough holes to fill - for the rest of the guys, I think we're stuck with just hoping they return to their healthy career norms.

Noneck
09-03-2007, 01:13 AM
IF AJ, Dye, and Konerko to bounce back to near career norms next year,


The above 3 are not having a year way below their norms. Aj is having the same type of year he had in 05. Pk and Jd are down a little in average but very close to norm in other categories.

WhiteSox5187
09-03-2007, 01:59 AM
The above 3 are not having a year way below their norms. Aj is having the same type of year he had in 05. Pk and Jd are down a little in average but very close to norm in other categories.
If we are to assume that Paul Konerko's average year is .287 wiht about 34 HRs and 100+ RBIs (which he has done every year since 2004) then Paulie is in fact below average in all of his major offensive categories this year. Unless he gets really hot here in September he is going to finish below 34 HRs and 100 RBIs for the first time since that god awful year 2003.

ANd if we say JD is a guy who usually hits about .277 wiht about 25 HRs and 90 RBIs, then again we see that JD is well below norm on both average and RBIs (and that HR total is a little low because of injuries in '04 and '02), but the HR total is there...I think it's safe to say that this is nowhere close to a norm year for either JD or Paulie in any category.

Noneck
09-03-2007, 09:22 AM
If we are to assume that Paul Konerko's average year is .287 wiht about 34 HRs and 100+ RBIs (which he has done every year since 2004) then Paulie is in fact below average in all of his major offensive categories this year. Unless he gets really hot here in September he is going to finish below 34 HRs and 100 RBIs for the first time since that god awful year 2003.

ANd if we say JD is a guy who usually hits about .277 wiht about 25 HRs and 90 RBIs, then again we see that JD is well below norm on both average and RBIs (and that HR total is a little low because of injuries in '04 and '02), but the HR total is there...I think it's safe to say that this is nowhere close to a norm year for either JD or Paulie in any category.

JD is down in avg. , above in HRs (according to your criteria), and will be slightly down in RBIs at season end (according to your criteria). The RBIs have alot to due with the lower OBP of players batting ahead of him but will still have about 80 at season end. (This is if he plays full time the last month of season as he did in previous years)

PKs, OPB, SLG are very similar (according to your criteria). HRs will be slightly lower and AVG very close when season is done. RBIs have alot to due with the lower OBP of players batting ahead of him but will still have 80+.

My point is, these guys are not having horrible statistical years and I don't think anyone should can say, They are having "nowhere close to a norm year".

soxfan13
09-04-2007, 12:00 PM
Excuse me? He proved his leadership ability by calling out Frank? :rolling:

Paulie behaved like a classless ass when he called out Frank.

He also led many people to question his baseball intellect when he said that Royce Clayton was the best SS he ever played with.

Thankfully, his professionalism has improved since those brilliant episodes. I'd rather he not call out his teammates individually in the media, especially when he's too has suffered from an anemic bat with RISP.

He called out Thomas, when Thomas decided to skip a TEAM pregame stretch in protest of being benched. How exactly is that being classless? Isnt that what people here are calling for? Konerko to get in the faces of people that are putting themselves ahead of the team. Just because it happened to be the God of White Sox baseball it is wrong? Guaranteed, if it was the 25th man on the team that Konerko said that about, it would be considered the right thing to do.

Madscout
09-06-2007, 09:52 AM
I think it's time to cut our losses with Thome just get him out of the lineup. Of all the players previously mentioned (konerko, dye, crede, aj), thome is the least use to us. He only has one year left on his contract, and if we have to eat it, then we have to eat it. I have been saying for a while that we need to get away from this DH who is always and only a DH that we have had with Thomas and Thome. Big salary eaters that don't give you that money on D. Crede is useful if he is healthy because of his D, dye will have a much better year next year, Konerko is a steady preasance in the clubhouse and beside the range factor, a very good first baseman, and I love AJ's play and we wouldn't get anything better than him as far as running the bases.

Next to go in my book would be Dye, but only if a REAL replacement presents himself.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-07-2007, 08:32 AM
For starters, I'd trade Paulie and Thome, and find out if Fields can play 1B.

I'd get two new setup men in the bullpen behind Jenks, a top LH and top RH, and keep Wasserman (2nd RH out of pen), Logan (2nd LF out of pen), and Floyd (long relief).

Paulie needs to yield a SS or CF in return.

Flight #24
09-07-2007, 10:18 AM
He called out Thomas, when Thomas decided to skip a TEAM pregame stretch in protest of being benched. How exactly is that being classless? Isnt that what people here are calling for? Konerko to get in the faces of people that are putting themselves ahead of the team. Just because it happened to be the God of White Sox baseball it is wrong? Guaranteed, if it was the 25th man on the team that Konerko said that about, it would be considered the right thing to do.

Actually, I think it was his comments when Frank was hurt. He said similar things to Wells back in '01 when Frank went out (although I can't rememebr if it was that year with the tricep or if it was when the bone spur hit). Those were the ones where he should have just ****. Not to mention the Clayton and Uribe comments (when Juan deked Derek Lee).

DumpJerry
09-07-2007, 11:42 AM
I think the large number of injuries have played a bigger role than people realize. Each injury messes up the team chemistry because the lineup has to, once again, be juggled and Ozzie's options to come off the bench late in the game are limited. We now have guys coming off the bench we never heard of a year ago in part because guys like Pablo Ozuna got hurt.

If we had stayed reletively injury-free like the previous few years, the team chemisty gets a chance to gel and hte players get used to their respective roles and start to perform.

This does not apply to the bullpen this year, however. But, truth be told, the bullpen has been not too bad lately.

GoSox2K3
09-07-2007, 10:38 PM
JD is down in avg. , above in HRs (according to your criteria), and will be slightly down in RBIs at season end (according to your criteria). The RBIs have alot to due with the lower OBP of players batting ahead of him but will still have about 80 at season end. (This is if he plays full time the last month of season as he did in previous years)

PKs, OPB, SLG are very similar (according to your criteria). HRs will be slightly lower and AVG very close when season is done. RBIs have alot to due with the lower OBP of players batting ahead of him but will still have 80+.

My point is, these guys are not having horrible statistical years and I don't think anyone should can say, They are having "nowhere close to a norm year".

So, you think Konerko is going to add 20 points to his batting avg. by the end of the season?:?:

FarWestChicago
09-07-2007, 10:47 PM
So, you think Konerko is going to add 20 points to his batting avg. by the end of the season?:?:Yeah, you gotta wonder how GIDPK is going to make that huge average rush.