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View Full Version : Guillen finally gets angry


Trav
08-30-2007, 01:55 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070829soxgamer,1,785605.story?coll=cs-home-headlines




"I hope somebody out there cares the way we care," he said. "Good guys or nice guys finish (expletive) last. I'm tired of seeing that (expletive), day in and day out. And I don't want to spend a miserable September seeing the same (expletive). If I have to see the same (expletive), I told Kenny, 'Bring somebody up. (Expletive) it.'

"If it's my fault, I should be moving out of here then. If it's my fault, (expletive) fire my (expletive) and I'll be fine. I have the job to do and I get paid a lot of (expletive) money to make this club work, but it's not easy to work with people like that. It's not easy."

Am I the only one who thinks this is long over due? Personally, I hope he sits Erstad and Pods and lets the veteran starters sit the rest of the year. Not as punishment, but to see what the young guys can do. Wouldn't it be great to find a diamond in the rough and make this painful process worthwhile for next year.

JB98
08-30-2007, 02:04 AM
The horse is out of the barn, but I'm glad Ozzie is letting the team have it. What's going on here should be an embarrassment to everyone, from JR right on down through the fans. I'm ashamed to support this steaming pile of crap night in and night out.

I think Ozzie was a much better manager before he got all politically correct and ****. I hope he goes back to being the Ozzie we saw the first two years of his tenure, managing by his gut, saying whatever and not giving a damn about anyone's feelings.

WhiteSox5187
08-30-2007, 02:23 AM
The horse is out of the barn, but I'm glad Ozzie is letting the team have it. What's going on here should be an embarrassment to everyone, from JR right on down through the fans. I'm ashamed to support this steaming pile of crap night in and night out.

I think Ozzie was a much better manager before he got all politically correct and ****. I hope he goes back to being the Ozzie we saw the first two years of his tenure, managing by his gut, saying whatever and not giving a damn about anyone's feelings.
After that incident with Mariotti I think something (or maybe someone) got to Ozzie, cuz he got really muzzled after that. I'm sure he's been thinking of this outburst since June. It just happened now. I hope to see more of it. Someone needs to let this team have it.

MetroPD
08-30-2007, 05:43 AM
More of the same. Just like what happened to Mike Keenan the players will only listen to nonsensical ranting and raving for so long before they stop listening and performing. He's lost control of this team.

LITTLE NELL
08-30-2007, 05:49 AM
Good for Ozzie, Im tired of people putting the blame on Ozzie, Cooper and Walker. The fault lies with the overpaid bozos on the field.

RedHeadPaleHoser
08-30-2007, 06:45 AM
More of the same. Just like what happened to Mike Keenan the players will only listen to nonsensical ranting and raving for so long before they stop listening and performing. He's lost control of this team.

I don't see that. Keenan was never the verbal supporter publicly that Guillen is of an underperforming club. While Keenan's "fireball" attitude was a shot in the arm for the club initially, the players NEVER responded to him.

Three guys who signed contracts to be with this team(PK, MB and JD) have all expressed publicly that they love playing for this guy. Ozzie's not lost control....I think he's finally getting it back. I agree with another poster - the PC bull**** I think took his edge off. We don't need nice nice - we need wins.

ChiMan921
08-30-2007, 07:01 AM
After all that hoopla about the Sox being a "B" Team, I stand corrected - enter one Ozzie Guillen who made my day with his tirade. It demonstrated to me that Ozzie is in the here and now - love him or hate him, he spoke from the heart - that's the passion I was so convinced was missing as we only heard of "next year".

Ozzie, you are right on the money!:smile: Keep the core players that care and if necessary bite the bullet and let some of the kids with passion fight for a job.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2007, 07:04 AM
I hope Ozzie keeps firing away.

Last night on the way home from the game, the Rangers' post-game show host said he felt sorry for White Sox fans. He said this version of the Sox are one of the very worst teams he has ever seen.

As I was telling rowand33 last night, the only "saving grace" for this steaming pile of a season is that the Sox have found out some valuable information about Fields (earned a spot lineup next year), Danks (earned a spot in the rotation), Owens (needs to work on his hitting and bunting) and Richar (can handle second base and has a good approach at the plate). That and guaranteed themselves a higher draft pick.

Other than that, it's a steaming pile.

delben91
08-30-2007, 08:09 AM
As others have said, I'm surprised it took this long. Good for Ozzie, finally saying what he's no doubt been thinking for a few months now.

It certainly doesn't seem like a motivational ploy either, because he was talking more about how he and Kenny have to make changes, not staying the course to give the guys a chance to improve.

oeo
08-30-2007, 09:38 AM
More of the same. Just like what happened to Mike Keenan the players will only listen to nonsensical ranting and raving for so long before they stop listening and performing. He's lost control of this team.

Do you have any proof of this?

Didn't think so.

PatK
08-30-2007, 10:37 AM
Don't ever liken Ozzie to Mike Keenan.

When Ozzie brings down several franchises with only one championship to show for it, then you can compare the two.

soxfan13
08-30-2007, 10:39 AM
More of the same. Just like what happened to Mike Keenan the players will only listen to nonsensical ranting and raving for so long before they stop listening and performing. He's lost control of this team.

Thats a very big stretch.

russ99
08-30-2007, 10:41 AM
The horse is out of the barn, but I'm glad Ozzie is letting the team have it. What's going on here should be an embarrassment to everyone, from JR right on down through the fans. I'm ashamed to support this steaming pile of crap night in and night out.

I think Ozzie was a much better manager before he got all politically correct and ****. I hope he goes back to being the Ozzie we saw the first two years of his tenure, managing by his gut, saying whatever and not giving a damn about anyone's feelings.

Really, it's about time. I don't blame Ozzie one iota, as he's just saying what I'm sure all the fans feel. My only gripe is he should have done this a few months ago.

If those coddled multi-millonaires don't like it, they can play somewhere else next year.

Law11
08-30-2007, 11:23 AM
Good for ozzie.

Although I stopped watching games about a month ago.
If the team doesnt care i sure as hell dont..

Tragg
08-30-2007, 12:11 PM
I've never seen a more immunized coaching staff. Coaches routinely take responsibility for crap like this. Hell, Garner just got fired; and he was one step behind us in 2005 (and the Astros have been in the playoffs a lot more than the Sox have).

Sure it's not all their fault. The team wasn't strong to start (a lot of weaknesses) and players obviously aren't giving it 100%. But where's the improvement in hitters? Season long slumps from so many vets? Marginal improvement for the young guys? What has this staff done to improve things?

Ozzie needs fewer yes men. Keep Coop and hire some strong coaches.

GoSox2K3
08-30-2007, 12:24 PM
Good for Ozzie, Im tired of people putting the blame on Ozzie, Cooper and Walker. The fault lies with the overpaid bozos on the field.

They're ALL to blame. The players AND the Sox organization (coaches, minor league player development, draft selections, etc.)

How is it that just about everyone the Sox threw into our bullpen in desparation has stunk up the joint while some of our rejects (Marte, Riske, Javier Lopez) are not looking so bad on other teams?

Why is it that just about no one on the Sox can bunt while just about everyone on the Twins can? Is it just that our players are inately bozos? Or is it that the Twins actually put some effort into teaching fundamentals instead of just talking about it.

HerzogVon
08-30-2007, 12:25 PM
The horse is out of the barn, but I'm glad Ozzie is letting the team have it. What's going on here should be an embarrassment to everyone, from JR right on down through the fans. I'm ashamed to support this steaming pile of crap night in and night out.

I think Ozzie was a much better manager before he got all politically correct and ****. I hope he goes back to being the Ozzie we saw the first two years of his tenure, managing by his gut, saying whatever and not giving a damn about anyone's feelings.

After that incident with Mariotti I think something (or maybe someone) got to Ozzie, cuz he got really muzzled after that. I'm sure he's been thinking of this outburst since June. It just happened now. I hope to see more of it. Someone needs to let this team have it.

Here we have two incidents of something I tried - not too successfully - to bring up before. Ozzie and AJ have both been repeatedly beaten down to the point that they are either afraid, or simply - ( more likely ) - just plain tired of trying to be themselves. Maybe the "victims" are at fault here for not being tougher, but I'm not so sure. However it happened, much of the fire has gone out of this team as a result.

I still think that series with the Cubs last year is where it all began, at least with AJ. Remember how Barrett was lionized by the Cub media while AJ was portrayed as the villian? It wasn't so much that way nationally, but that was the local take. Now, think back to how Frank Thomas was forced to eat dirt, while Sammy the Cheat became the toast of the town. Same kind of battering, only that went on a lot longer.

Sure, professional athletes - especially guys like Ozzie and AJ - are supposed to be tough; able to handle this sort of thing. Truth is though, everyone has their breaking point. Sorry to over-psychoanalyze, but IMO - at least in this town - the corrosive role of the media cannot be emphasized enough.

Lip Man 1
08-30-2007, 12:51 PM
Bravo to Ozzie, this was LONG overdue...like June overdue.

This doesn't absolve the front office for some of the trades and gambles, Ozzie for his brutal 'matchup' philosophy or the coaches for not being able to get their points across but clearly the underperformance by the players themselves had a lot to do with this awful season.

I hope personally Ozzie keeps ripping them and follows up with something he suggested earlier, that he stop going to the post game media sessions and let the players speak for themselves when the reporters ask questions.

Lip

Lip Man 1
08-30-2007, 12:54 PM
GoSox:

I understand what you are saying but it is a fact that this spring Ozzie devoted one field at the complex just for fundamentals and that it was mandatory every day for most of the team.

It may be the players simply don't put their heart and soul into doing the 'little things' and (or) that the coaching staff as teachers simply can't get the points across (Hal could talk about how tough that is at times for teachers.)

My guess is that it's a combination of both and it needs to change.

Lip

southside rocks
08-30-2007, 12:59 PM
I hope personally Ozzie keeps ripping them and follows up with something he suggested earlier, that he stop going to the post game media sessions and let the players speak for themselves when the reporters ask questions.


As disgusted with and disappointed by this team as I am right now, I think this is a very good idea. Let some of the underperforming bleeps sit there and answer questions about why they failed to execute yet AGAIN. They've earned that privilege, IMO. :angry:

soxfan13
08-30-2007, 01:01 PM
I've never seen a more immunized coaching staff. Coaches routinely take responsibility for crap like this. Hell, Garner just got fired; and he was one step behind us in 2005 (and the Astros have been in the playoffs a lot more than the Sox have).

Sure it's not all their fault. The team wasn't strong to start (a lot of weaknesses) and players obviously aren't giving it 100%. But where's the improvement in hitters? Season long slumps from so many vets? Marginal improvement for the young guys? What has this staff done to improve things?

Ozzie needs fewer yes men. Keep Coop and hire some strong coaches.

If your going to blame coaches Coop should be right up there also. If you didnt notice he was given a few "throwers" that magic man Coop was suppose to be able to fix and that didnt happen. What about Garland and Contreras? Shouldnt that be on Coopers shoulders also?

JB98
08-30-2007, 01:08 PM
More of the same. Just like what happened to Mike Keenan the players will only listen to nonsensical ranting and raving for so long before they stop listening and performing. He's lost control of this team.

Ridiculous post. I guarantee you Jermaine Dye doesn't resign with this team if he didn't think Ozzie was the right man to lead the Sox.

If Ozzie has lost control of the team, it's because he has stopped being himself. Ozzie has been measuring his words and managing by the book way too much this year. It's like he's fearful of what the media will write. That's not who Ozzie is. I like the Ozzie who will tell anybody off at the drop of a hat. He needs to get back to that. Where is the Ozzie who does things his way, and everyone else be damned? He's been missing this year. I want the old Ozzie back. That's the manager we need. Not the defeated, politically-correct Ozzie we've seen most of this year.

I know Ozzie has stepped in a few ****piles during his tenure as Sox manager. But that doesn't bother me. The losing, lifeless effort I see on the field this season bothers me. Nothing Ozzie Guillen has ever said has offended me. Our record and standing in the American League here in 2007 offends me.

chisoxmike
08-30-2007, 01:12 PM
Ridiculous post. I guarantee you Jermaine Dye doesn't resign with this team if he didn't think Ozzie was the right man to lead the Sox.

If Ozzie has lost control of the team, it's because he has stopped being himself. Ozzie has been measuring his words and managing by the book way too much this year. It's like he's fearful of what the media will write. That's not who Ozzie is. I like the Ozzie who will tell anybody off at the drop of a hat. He needs to get back to that. Where is the Ozzie who does things his way, and everyone else be damned? He's been missing this year. I want the old Ozzie back. That's the manager we need. Not the defeated, politically-correct Ozzie we've seen most of this year.

I know Ozzie has stepped in a few ****piles during his tenure as Sox manager. But that doesn't bother me. The losing, lifeless effort I see on the field this season bothers me. Nothing Ozzie Guillen has ever said has offended me. Our record and standing in the American League here in 2007 offends me.

Boom. Exactly. Post of the ****ing year.

Tragg
08-30-2007, 01:13 PM
If your going to blame coaches Coop should be right up there also. If you didnt notice he was given a few "throwers" that magic man Coop was suppose to be able to fix and that didnt happen. What about Garland and Contreras? Shouldnt that be on Coopers shoulders also?
Maybe so, but the pitchers have been better than the hitters. And when were were good, the pitching was a lot better than the hitting.
Contreras came to the Sox as a bum and Coop got a lot out of him. Vasquez came as an inconstent pitcher and, while still inconsistent, is better than he was. Garland is disappionting, but did his best pitching under Coop. Coop got something out of Thornton. We got a year of really good pitching from Cotts. And Jenks is a stud. So I see pitchers that got better under Coop.
As for the hitters that got better under Walker and Cora, there's, well,....Dye had a couple of career years; Crede had a big year. That's about it.

It certainly isn't all coaching.

I guarantee you Jermaine Dye doesn't resign with this team if he didn't think Ozzie was the right man to lead the Sox.
Considering he's had a terrible year, and has obvious declining defensive skills, there's no way he would turn down 2/$22 no matter who the manager is. I'm sure he does have confidence in Guillen...all of the vets on the team should and I think they probably do.
I don't recall Guillen sniping with Mariotti et al in 2005 either.

BainesHOF
08-30-2007, 01:49 PM
Whatever, Ozzie. You're the one who's trotted out the same players day after day with no consequences for lack of production and hustle.

soxfan13
08-30-2007, 01:59 PM
Maybe so, but the pitchers have been better than the hitters. And when were were good, the pitching was a lot better than the hitting.
Contreras came to the Sox as a bum and Coop got a lot out of him. Vasquez came as an inconstent pitcher and, while still inconsistent, is better than he was. Garland is disappionting, but did his best pitching under Coop. Coop got something out of Thornton. We got a year of really good pitching from Cotts. And Jenks is a stud. So I see pitchers that got better under Coop.
As for the hitters that got better under Walker and Cora, there's, well,....Dye had a couple of career years; Crede had a big year. That's about it.

It certainly isn't all coaching.


Considering he's had a terrible year, and has obvious declining defensive skills, there's no way he would turn down 2/$22 no matter who the manager is. I'm sure he does have confidence in Guillen...all of the vets on the team should and I think they probably do.
I don't recall Guillen sniping with Mariotti et al in 2005 either.

I see alot of pitchers that have one decent year and then go back to being mediocre and if he was that great of a pitching coach wouldnt it be more then one year at a time with alot of these guys? Im just saying there is not a single player, coach or executive in the Sox organization that should be free of criticism for the absolute collapse this year.

Jerko
08-30-2007, 02:13 PM
We're THREE games behind the ****in ROYALS and 4 games away from having the worst record in baseball. Blame goes to more than one person here. The entire organization had a bad year. How they recover is what we need to be worrying about now.

Artoo
08-30-2007, 02:39 PM
Good for Ozzie, Im tired of people putting the blame on Ozzie, Cooper and Walker. The fault lies with the overpaid bozos on the field.
I concur.

soxrme
08-30-2007, 02:45 PM
Whatever, Ozzie. You're the one who's trotted out the same players day after day with no consequences for lack of production and hustle.

Big deal he yelled. We have had a minor league team on the field almost all year. Uribe playing every day is a joke, Gonzalez was an infielder and yet he plays the outfield all the time. Blame KW for not getting a third outfielder let alone a 4th one. Face it they took a lot of gambles and lost.

nccwsfan
08-30-2007, 02:50 PM
Bravo to Ozzie, this was LONG overdue...like June overdue.

This doesn't absolve the front office for some of the trades and gambles, Ozzie for his brutal 'matchup' philosophy or the coaches for not being able to get their points across but clearly the underperformance by the players themselves had a lot to do with this awful season.

I hope personally Ozzie keeps ripping them and follows up with something he suggested earlier, that he stop going to the post game media sessions and let the players speak for themselves when the reporters ask questions.

Lip

Couldn't agree more- they needed to light this fire 2 1/2 months ago. Now it's almost pointless.

Considering that there have been a few times this summer where KW/OG have said there will be "major changes coming soon" it doesn't seem like those changes ever happened. The bullpen's had changes, but the only change I've seen in the lineup is Richar at 2B (changes at 3B, LF, and CF were due to injury). After awhile that becomes more of a veiled threat than a warning to the team.

I'm looking forward to a very interesting offseason...

thomas35forever
08-30-2007, 02:56 PM
I thought Ozzie would never go off on this team. These guys deserve it for playing the way they have. Oh well. Go Bears.

WestSider
08-30-2007, 03:07 PM
Is there any audio of the tirade anywhere on the Internet?

jenn2080
08-30-2007, 03:27 PM
I thought Ozzie would never go off on this team. These guys deserve it for playing the way they have. Oh well. Go Bears.


This is about 3-4 months overdue. A little to late to be going off on them now. Should have done that mid May.

salty99
08-30-2007, 03:32 PM
This is about 3-4 months overdue. A little to late to be going off on them now. Should have done that mid May.


Exactly, who gives a crap now.

chaerulez
08-30-2007, 03:33 PM
How many times have we heard the Ozzie rant where he swears and says he should be fired if he's not getting the job done? I don't have an opinion about this really, just pointing out it's happened just about every season he's been here. Also, I hope no one thinks because of this Paul Konerko, Javier Vazquez, or anyone else really on this team gets "fired up" and starts playing better.

Mercy!
08-30-2007, 05:24 PM
When Ozzie's idea of a rant stops containing some variation of asking to be fired, then I'll pay attention.

kevingrt
08-30-2007, 06:00 PM
The team deserves this kind of rant.

MetroPD
08-30-2007, 06:16 PM
Do you have any proof of this?

Didn't think so.
Thats because you don't want to hurt yourself, thinking that is. The facts are that Ozzie is known for his tirades, other than this being his latest rant about his players performance I see nothing to indicate that this is anything positive. We have less than 30 games left and now is the time to kick the team in the pants officially in the media? The proof is in the pudding, just because he's not ripping his players publicly, does not mean he is not screaming behind closed doors. Now if you have any other questions that are relevant to the discussion at hand, by all means ask.

Ridiculous post. I guarantee you Jermaine Dye doesn't resign with this team if he didn't think Ozzie was the right man to lead the Sox.

If Ozzie has lost control of the team, it's because he has stopped being himself. Ozzie has been measuring his words and managing by the book way too much this year. It's like he's fearful of what the media will write. That's not who Ozzie is. I like the Ozzie who will tell anybody off at the drop of a hat. He needs to get back to that. Where is the Ozzie who does things his way, and everyone else be damned? He's been missing this year. I want the old Ozzie back. That's the manager we need. Not the defeated, politically-correct Ozzie we've seen most of this year.

I know Ozzie has stepped in a few ****piles during his tenure as Sox manager. But that doesn't bother me. The losing, lifeless effort I see on the field this season bothers me. Nothing Ozzie Guillen has ever said has offended me. Our record and standing in the American League here in 2007 offends me.

Ridiculous? You just confirmed in your own posts, that is what Ozzie does. As for Jermaine Dye, how old is he again? How many more times do you think he and his family want to move? The money is right, the length of the contract is what he wanted, the location the same. He's not going to play for the next 20years. Guarantee? Haha yeah.

JB98
08-30-2007, 06:24 PM
Whatever, Ozzie. You're the one who's trotted out the same players day after day with no consequences for lack of production and hustle.

Who do you want Ozzie to put on the field? All the great players our minor-league system is producing?

JB98
08-30-2007, 06:27 PM
Thats because you don't want to hurt yourself, thinking that is. The facts are that Ozzie is known for his tirades, other than this being his latest rant about his players performance I see nothing to indicate that this is anything positive. We have less than 30 games left and now is the time to kick the team in the pants officially in the media? The proof is in the pudding, just because he's not ripping his players publicly, does not mean he is not screaming behind closed doors. Now if you have any other questions that are relevant to the discussion at hand, by all means ask.



Ridiculous? You just confirmed in your own posts, that is what Ozzie does. As for Jermaine Dye, how old is he again? How many more times do you think he and his family want to move? The money is right, the length of the contract is what he wanted, the location the same. He's not going to play for the next 20years. Guarantee? Haha yeah.

I'm glad you know everything. Dye stated that one of his main factors in staying was that he's confident that the team will get going in the right direction again. If he thought Ozzie was an idiot, why would he say something like that?

Enlighten us, please.

Jermaine Dye is 33. It isn't like he's ancient.

Martinigirl
08-30-2007, 06:33 PM
This is about 3-4 months overdue. A little to late to be going off on them now. Should have done that mid May.

That was almost exactly what I thought, except I thought it should have happened after the Cubs swept us at the Cell.

North Sox Sider
08-30-2007, 06:33 PM
Speaking of Paulie, where is our team captain during all this? He is a good player but is he really the right fit to be a captain. Dare I say AJP. I know that sounds ridiculous but at least he shows some emotion and you can tell he hates to lose. We need a strong presence on this team. Just my opinion, I could be wrong

JB98
08-30-2007, 06:40 PM
Speaking of Paulie, where is our team captain during all this? He is a good player but is he really the right fit to be a captain. Dare I say AJP. I know that sounds ridiculous but at least he shows some emotion and you can tell he hates to lose. We need a strong presence on this team. Just my opinion, I could be wrong

I think you're wrong. You don't have to be fiery to be a leader. Without question, Konerko and Buehrle are the two leaders on this team, and they have been for a long, long time.

southside rocks
08-30-2007, 06:43 PM
I think you're wrong. You don't have to be fiery to be a leader. Without question, Konerko and Buehrle are the two leaders on this team, and they have been for a long, long time.

True. Evidenced by the fact that for those two players, management broke -- okay, bent -- its rules about terms of contracts and salaries.

I love AJ forever, but he's too polarizing to be the captain of a ballclub. He does better in other roles.

LITTLE NELL
08-30-2007, 06:45 PM
I think you're wrong. You don't have to be fiery to be a leader. Without question, Konerko and Buehrle are the two leaders on this team, and they have been for a long, long time.
Plus we have no idea what really goes on in the clubhouse. P.S. Captains belong in hockey.

ZombieRob
08-30-2007, 06:51 PM
Ozzie needs another approach.If really none of us takes him seriously,think anyone on the team does?

Martinigirl
08-30-2007, 06:52 PM
Speaking of Paulie, where is our team captain during all this? He is a good player but is he really the right fit to be a captain. Dare I say AJP. I know that sounds ridiculous but at least he shows some emotion and you can tell he hates to lose. We need a strong presence on this team. Just my opinion, I could be wrong

You don't think Paulie gets pissed? I don't think there is a person on that team who you can actually see get made at himself the way Paulie does. Ozzie has even made comments about Paulie beating himself up.

JB98
08-30-2007, 07:01 PM
True. Evidenced by the fact that for those two players, management broke -- okay, bent -- its rules about terms of contracts and salaries.

I love AJ forever, but he's too polarizing to be the captain of a ballclub. He does better in other roles.

Like catcher, for example. AJ is one of my favorite players, but there's no reason to make him team captain.

Why the hell does a pro baseball team need a captain anyway?

Chipol
08-30-2007, 07:56 PM
You don't think Paulie gets pissed? I don't think there is a person on that team who you can actually see get made at himself the way Paulie does. Ozzie has even made comments about Paulie beating himself up.

It's one thing to get mad at yourself for failing, but another thing entirely to get in someone else's face when they lay down on the job.

misty60481
08-30-2007, 07:57 PM
Ozzie should rant at Kenny W. he is the one responsible for about half the team being AAA. He gave away Iguchi and Mack with nothing to show on the field , except a 2nd baseman whos lucky to be hittig 200, no replacement for Mack. He moved Fields to LF without a replacement. We could have picked up Ensberg for a couple months, but KW said costs too much. It might not have amounted to too much but could have kept us out of the cellar.
3B-Ensberg
SS-Uribe
2B-Iguch
1B-Paulie
Not that bad of an infield-sure a lot better than whats out there now.

oeo
08-30-2007, 08:00 PM
Ozzie should rant at Kenny W. he is the one responsible for about half the team being AAA. He gave away Iguchi and Mack with nothing to show on the field , except a 2nd baseman whos lucky to be hittig 200, no replacement for Mack. He moved Fields to LF without a replacement. We could have picked up Ensberg for a couple months, but KW said costs too much. It might not have amounted to too much but could have kept us out of the cellar.
3B-Ensberg
SS-Uribe
2B-Iguch
1B-Paulie
Not that bad of an infield-sure a lot better than whats out there now.

Yeah, Morgan Ensberg, that guy is awesome. I'd rather stick a board up as a third baseman, and take the out each time through the order than watch an old, awful 3B.

Iguchi and Mackowiak...what did you expect for them? Let's be realistic here.

We suck...it doesn't matter if we finish fourth or last, it's all the same...

DickAllen72
08-30-2007, 08:10 PM
I love AJ forever, but he's too polarizing to be the captain of a ballclub. He does better in other roles.
In 2005, the Sox had a few leader types on the club. Carl Everett had the ability to both fire up his teammates and keep things loose. El Duque had a great effect on Contreras and had the reputation of coming through in big situations. Aaron Rowand had a great chemistry with his teammates, especially with Crede and AJ and played hard all the time which rubs off on the players around him.

They may have replaced the talent of those players but they didn't replace the intangibles they brought to the team. Stat-heads can post all the numbers they wish, but "chemistry" is real and can't really be measured with stats.

As for AJ, the man has a great attitude and is a winner for sure, but he may not be the type of personality that his teammates look upon as a leader. Still, he's an important asset to the team.

WhiteFlight
08-30-2007, 08:20 PM
I think Guillen would look better if he had a more experienced bench manager at his side.

kevin57
08-30-2007, 08:28 PM
I agree with a lot of what's being said here.

1) I'm ecstatic that Ozzie has let loose. I've said before that in that dust-up with Mariotti he allowed himself to be muzzled. Nobody is going to perform their best if they feel constricted. Ozzie's a manager not a kindergarten teacher.

2) This team has underperformed miserably, and although I dread a "Marlins Makeover" as a solution, if the fire's gone out of the belly of this team for another championship, then there is no other solution but...

3) In '05 as things were crumbling, this team benefited from cool heads. It carried us out of the blues and into a WS. This year, different circumstances called for a different solution. This squad needed a Thome, or Konerko, or Buerhle to kick some metaphorical ass long ago. I understand those guys don't have that kind of personality. Then, make sure next year there is someone like that.

4) Ozzie's tirade does ring hollow on one score. He has not sat his position players for any period of time to send a message. When the Cubs were stinking up the joint, he sat some big names (JJ for instance) for a good stretch (two weeks(?)), and improvement followed. Forget sitting Pods and that sort. Sit Paulie. Sit Uribe. Etc. for a while to send a message.

JB98
08-30-2007, 08:32 PM
I think Guillen would look better if he had a more experienced bench manager at his side.

I think Guillen would look better with better players on the field. We won a title with Harold Baines as the bench coach.

GlassSox
08-30-2007, 08:34 PM
I like the fact that Ozzie let loose although I doubt that it changes a thing. Thursday night game about ready to start so we will see if it did anything.

Martinigirl
08-30-2007, 08:36 PM
It's one thing to get mad at yourself for failing, but another thing entirely to get in someone else's face when they lay down on the job.

The quote said he needed to show some emotion, and I said he does, when he is berating himself.

As far as getting in someone's face, that is just not his personality. The team and Ozzie knew that when Paulie was named captain. To me, this whole conversation about Paulie is like the posts about Garland's demeanor. Would fans prefer that these adults suddenly start acting like different people and be completely fake? They are who they are. There personalities have been formed over the years of their lives. If they suddenly started acting differently to appease a fanbase it would be totally disingenuous and anyone who actually knew them would know that.

JB98
08-30-2007, 08:39 PM
I agree with a lot of what's being said here.

1) I'm ecstatic that Ozzie has let loose. I've said before that in that dust-up with Mariotti he allowed himself to be muzzled. Nobody is going to perform their best if they feel constricted. Ozzie's a manager not a kindergarten teacher.

2) This team has underperformed miserably, and although I dread a "Marlins Makeover" as a solution, if the fire's gone out of the belly of this team for another championship, then there is no other solution but...

3) In '05 as things were crumbling, this team benefited from cool heads. It carried us out of the blues and into a WS. This year, different circumstances called for a different solution. This squad needed a Thome, or Konerko, or Buerhle to kick some metaphorical ass long ago. I understand those guys don't have that kind of personality. Then, make sure next year there is someone like that.

4) Ozzie's tirade does ring hollow on one score. He has not sat his position players for any period of time to send a message. When the Cubs were stinking up the joint, he sat some big names (JJ for instance) for a good stretch (two weeks(?)), and improvement followed. Forget sitting Pods and that sort. Sit Paulie. Sit Uribe. Etc. for a while to send a message.

The problem with sitting guys is we have such horse**** on our bench that it's not going to make things better. Having Pablo hurt has killed us in that regard. I don't really know what Konerko has done to get benched. I see him struggling mightily at the plate, but I don't see him making the mental mistakes that Uribe is making. Mental mistakes, not hustling, giving away ABs, that should get guys benched. Uribe is No. 1 on my ****list in that regard.

It isn't in the personality of a Thome, a Buehrle or a Konerko to come into the clubhouse and turn over a buffet table. But if one of them ever did that, it would certainly get everyone's attention because it's so out of character. I was thinking that would have helped in June. The horse is out of the barn now.

MILTMAY5
08-30-2007, 09:15 PM
When Ozzie's idea of a rant stops containing some variation of asking to be fired, then I'll pay attention.Ozzie's rants are second to none. However, I too wish he would shut up about being fired. We all know it's BS and causes his argument to lose credibility.

JB98
08-30-2007, 09:18 PM
Ozzie's rants are second to none. However, I too wish he would shut up about being fired. We all know it's BS and causes his argument to lose credibility.

I don't think so. By talking about being fired, he's showing the players he's willing to consider the possibility that he's the problem.

JorgeFabregas
08-30-2007, 09:20 PM
It's just incoherent rambling.

Grzegorz
08-30-2007, 09:26 PM
I don't think so. By talking about being fired, he's showing the players he's willing to consider the possibility that he's the problem.

He's part of the problem.

MILTMAY5
08-30-2007, 09:26 PM
I don't think so. By talking about being fired, he's showing the players he's willing to consider the possibility that he's the problem.I think it's a huge distraction and makes him look foolish. You never hear comments like that from Joe Torre or Bobby Cox when their teams are mired in a slump.

JB98
08-30-2007, 09:27 PM
He's part of the problem.

Of course he is. We are 57-76 and soon to be 57-77. Everyone in the whole organization is part of the problem.

JB98
08-30-2007, 09:27 PM
I think it's a huge distraction and makes him look foolish. You never hear comments like that from Joe Torre or Bobby Cox when their teams are mired in a slump.

What do Joe Torre or Bobby Cox have to do with anything?

MILTMAY5
08-30-2007, 09:34 PM
What do Joe Torre or Bobby Cox have to do with anything?I'm just using them as an example of how a manager should handle himself in a crisis. It's fine to get pissed off, just don't talk BS that everyone knows you don't really mean. Every Sox fan knows that Ozzie NEVER wants to be fired so quit talking like you do. It's similar to '05 when he talked of retiring if they won it all. We all know it's BS so why bother keep bringing it up.

Viva Medias B's
08-30-2007, 09:37 PM
This may not be the worst White Sox team we've seen, but I think it has become the most embarrassing.

oeo
08-30-2007, 09:37 PM
I think it's a huge distraction and makes him look foolish. You never hear comments like that from Joe Torre or Bobby Cox when their teams are mired in a slump.

A slump? They've been slumping all year, then.

soxfan13
08-30-2007, 09:39 PM
It's one thing to get mad at yourself for failing, but another thing entirely to get in someone else's face when they lay down on the job.


Just wondering , are you a person that hates Zambrano for getting fired up and getting in someones face when they lay down on the job. If so, you and everybody else calling for Konerko to get fired up and in peoples faces, are being very hypocritical.

A. Cavatica
08-30-2007, 09:41 PM
I think this is partly frustration and partly an attempt to deflect his share of the blame.

One thing it's not: effective managing. If calling the players out in public would make them play better, then he should've done it last fall. And in spring training. And a couple of times already this season.

The way to get these players to play better is to use them in situations where they can perform. If that fails, replace them with better players.

Grzegorz
08-30-2007, 09:41 PM
I think it's a huge distraction and makes him look foolish.

These outbursts, in a word, are worthless. A monumental waste of time, effort, and channeling of energy.

JB98
08-30-2007, 09:41 PM
This may not be the worst White Sox team we've seen, but I think it has become the most embarrassing.

It's far and away the most embarrassing. Four errors in one inning. Blowing an 8-0 lead in one inning. Leading 11-2 in the sixth and hanging on to win 11-10. Five consecutive walks, including four with the bases loaded. Outscored 46-7 at home in a four-game set. There have been countless disgraces this year.

A. Cavatica
08-30-2007, 09:42 PM
The way to get these players to play better is to use them in situations where they can perform. If that fails, replace them with better players.

Just noticed A. Gonzalez has three errors tonight. Why does Ozzie let this man near the field?

Hitmen77
08-30-2007, 09:43 PM
....and the Sox respond to Ozzie by making 4 errors in one inning. :angry::angry::angry::angry:

JB98
08-30-2007, 09:43 PM
Just noticed A. Gonzalez has three errors tonight. Why does Ozzie let this man near the field?

If Fields is getting a tryout in LF, who else do we have to put at third? Ersty? Toby Hall?

Viva Medias B's
08-30-2007, 09:44 PM
Just noticed A. Gonzalez has three errors tonight. Why does Ozzie let this man near the field?

I would have made him A-Gone immediately after the third error.

A. Cavatica
08-30-2007, 09:44 PM
If Fields is getting a tryout in LF, who else do we have to put at third? Ersty? Toby Hall?

How about Fields? And Sweeney in left?

JB98
08-30-2007, 09:46 PM
How about Fields? And Sweeney in left?

If you read my post, I asked if Fields is getting a tryout in LF, who do you put at 3B? Fields is not among the possible answers.

Dick Allen
08-30-2007, 09:46 PM
Gonzalez is playing almost every day at one position or another, which is pure insanity. What do they think, he's going to all of a sudden become good?

Tragg
08-30-2007, 09:48 PM
In 2005, the Sox had a few leader types on the club. Carl Everett had the ability to both fire up his teammates and keep things loose. El Duque had a great effect on Contreras and had the reputation of coming through in big situations. Aaron Rowand had a great chemistry with his teammates, especially with Crede and AJ and played hard all the time which rubs off on the players around him.

They may have replaced the talent of those players but they didn't replace the intangibles they brought to the team. Stat-heads can post all the numbers they wish, but "chemistry" is real and can't really be measured with stats.

As for AJ, the man has a great attitude and is a winner for sure, but he may not be the type of personality that his teammates look upon as a leader. Still, he's an important asset to the team.
At least per his experience on the Giants, AJ grates on people when times are tough. That's where a real leader on this team would help - to handle AJ....because he is really positive at times too.

That 2005 team had some successful veterans...in particular, El D was a winner and knew how to win.

But it's also part of the responsibility of a coaching staff to bring that to a team. This staff has won a WS yet is still, overall, pretty inexperienced. They have not dealt with adverse times very skillfully and have not been successful in the "it's time to play the kids time".
I don't think Ozzie's yak is a good thing at all. He didn't do it in 2005. He's running this team - run it. Too much yak, too much cynicism.

Mercy!
08-30-2007, 09:48 PM
I don't think so. By talking about being fired, he's showing the players he's willing to consider the possibility that he's the problem.
Well, supposedly Reinsdorf called Ozzie in early June and told him to knock off the constant talk about how he might be/should be fired. If it's good enough for Jerry, it's good enough for me.

Seriously, I always come back in my own mind to trying to imagine a corporate boss constantly acting like that. It's just totally immature. Who can take someone like that seriously as a leader?

A. Cavatica
08-30-2007, 09:48 PM
If you read my post, I asked if Fields is getting a tryout in LF, who do you put at 3B? Fields is not among the possible answers.

Fields in left is sheer idiocy if you don't have another player capable of playing third. Ozzie makes the ****ing lineups. Is it too much to ask that he realize this?

As for giving Fields a tryout, doesn't Sweeney (an actual outfielder) need one too?

CLR01
08-30-2007, 09:48 PM
How about Fields? And Sweeney in left?

Why would you want to put an infielder in the infield and an outfielder in the outfield?

Grzegorz
08-30-2007, 09:49 PM
Hopefully Crede is healthy next year. At this point move Fields back to third and when the rosters expand move Sweeney to right and Dye to left.

JB98
08-30-2007, 09:50 PM
Well, supposedly Reinsdorf called Ozzie in early June and told him to knock off the constant talk about how he might be/should be fired. If it's good enough for Jerry, it's good enough for me.

Seriously, I always come back in my own mind to trying to imagine a corporate boss constantly acting like that. It's just totally immature. Who can take someone like that seriously as a leader?

I wish my boss would be fired. Because he thinks he is God and not accountable to anyone. I don't take him seriously as a leader. In fact, I blatantly defy him on an almost daily basis.

At least Ozzie is admitting his accountability in this. He has said many times that he is the one ultimately responsible for the ballclub.

JB98
08-30-2007, 09:52 PM
Fields in left is sheer idiocy if you don't have another player capable of playing third. Ozzie makes the ****ing lineups. Is it too much to ask that he realize this?

As for giving Fields a tryout, doesn't Sweeney (an actual outfielder) need one too?

Sweeney has done nothing to distinguish himself this year. If he's in our starting outfield for 2008, we are rebuilding. That's fine, if that's what the organization wants to do. But I haven't read any indication that that's the direction they are going to go in. So there is no real point in giving him a tryout.

Grzegorz
08-30-2007, 09:54 PM
Sweeney has done nothing to distinguish himself this year. If he's in our starting outfield for 2008, we are rebuilding.

Neither has Fields other than to prove he's an Adam Dunn clone.

A. Cavatica
08-30-2007, 09:54 PM
He has said many times that he is the one ultimately responsible for the ballclub.

And I think he's trying a little reverse psychology. The more often he says it, the less people will believe it, and he'll hang onto his job for another year.

JB98
08-30-2007, 09:56 PM
Neither has Fields other than to prove he's an Adam Dunn clone.

Teal? Fields has had numerous big hits since his recall. The batting average isn't great, but he's shown me he can get it done in the late innings. He had two game-winning hits on the last homestand.

Soxworldchamps
08-30-2007, 09:57 PM
If Fields is getting a tryout in LF, who else do we have to put at third? Ersty? Toby Hall?


That's why I think Cintron should be off the roster entirely and we should bring someone up. He's just taking up space. I respect that he has family to take care of, but really, we need bench players.

Tragg
08-30-2007, 09:58 PM
Sweeney has done nothing to distinguish himself this year. If he's in our starting outfield for 2008, we are rebuilding. That's fine, if that's what the organization wants to do. But I haven't read any indication that that's the direction they are going to go in. So there is no real point in giving him a tryout.
Wouldn't that that go for Owens as well? He's been leading off for going on 2 months, without any interruption except an occasional day off. (that's strange in itself). He's not improving. It's fine with me to let him stay there.
At least Sweeney has more upside. He needs to learn how to hit ML pitching. Why not let him? Especially when it's Gozalez he'd replace. (or could replace).
Defense is another thing that has been materially debased in importance since 2006. And the Sox have paid the price.

Grzegorz
08-30-2007, 09:59 PM
Teal?

No teal; Fields has a long way to go defensively and at the plate. I am hopefully that winter ball sharpens his skills at the plate and in the field.

BTW, whatever the Chicago White Sox do for 2008 they'll be rebuilding.

Pray for a Crede resurrection at third base.

Viva Medias B's
08-30-2007, 09:59 PM
The more I see of this, the more I wonder if we need a housecleaning.

JB98
08-30-2007, 09:59 PM
That's why I think Cintron should be off the roster entirely and we should bring someone up. He's just taking up space. I respect that he has family to take care of, but really, we need bench players.

We don't need to boot Cintron off the team to bring somebody up.

Inexplicably, we are carrying 13 pitchers, plus an injured Pods. That's the real problem.

A. Cavatica
08-30-2007, 09:59 PM
Sweeney has done nothing to distinguish himself this year. If he's in our starting outfield for 2008, we are rebuilding. That's fine, if that's what the organization wants to do. But I haven't read any indication that that's the direction they are going to go in. So there is no real point in giving him a tryout.

If Sweeney isn't playing because he has done nothing to distinguish himself, why is Andy Gonzalez playing?

JB98
08-30-2007, 10:01 PM
Wouldn't that that go for Owens as well? He's been leading off for going on 2 months, without any interruption except an occasional day off. (that's strange in itself). He's not improving. It's fine with me to let him stay there.
At least Sweeney has more upside. He needs to learn how to hit ML pitching. Why not let him? Especially when it's Gozalez he'd replace. (or could replace).

I agree that Sweeney has more upside. He's also three or four years younger than Owens. However, as you know, the organization has a need at leadoff hitter. That's why Owens is getting an audition and Sweeney is not. Ryan will never be a leadoff hitter.

Owens isn't getting any better, you are right.

JB98
08-30-2007, 10:02 PM
If Sweeney isn't playing because he has done nothing to distinguish himself, why is Andy Gonzalez playing?

You've got me. Gonzalez should be gone.

Soxworldchamps
08-30-2007, 10:04 PM
We don't need to boot Cintron off the team to bring somebody up.

Inexplicably, we are carrying 13 pitchers, plus an injured Pods. That's the real problem.


Cintron is an automatic out. I agree that some pitchers need to be out of here (Myers is the prime example) and that Pods needs to be reliable but I want someone who will give us productive outs.

Frontman
08-30-2007, 10:04 PM
You know, about damn time to get the ol' Ozzie back. That crap of being calm all the time annoyed me.

Look, Ozzie said what we have all said here. He said what everyone with a brain and a pulse has known since early this season.

This team under-played and gave away a lot of games. It's about damn time someone other than the radio heads and the fans here get pissed off enough to yell about it.

I'm sure the Ozzie haters will use this to drum up support to see the man fired, but I for one support him since he's only saying what makes sense.

For once.

:wink:

JB98
08-30-2007, 10:05 PM
No teal; Fields has a long way to go defensively and at the plate. I am hopefully that winter ball sharpens his skills at the plate and in the field.

BTW, whatever the Chicago White Sox do for 2008 they'll be rebuilding.

Pray for a Crede resurrection at third base.

How do you know the Sox will be rebuilding for 2008? Are you Miss Cleo?

Of course, Fields has a ways to go. He's not a finished product, but it's wrong to say he has not distinguished himself this year. He has proven that he can produce power at the big-league level. That's a helluva lot more than I've seen from these other callups, who have proven next to nothing.

JB98
08-30-2007, 10:06 PM
Cintron is an automatic out. I agree that some pitchers need to be out of here (Myers is the prime example) and that Pods needs to be reliable but I want someone who will give us productive outs.

Cintron should be gone next year, I agree. No reason to kick him off the team now. The horse is out of the barn.

slavko
08-30-2007, 10:08 PM
The wrong Gonzales resigned. What the Hey, have fun!

thomas35forever
08-30-2007, 10:08 PM
Okay, who wishes Ozzie would register as a member at WSI so we could tell him how we feel?

Grzegorz
08-30-2007, 10:09 PM
How do you know the Sox will be rebuilding for 2008? Are you Miss Cleo?

Of course, Fields has a ways to go. He's not a finished product, but it's wrong to say he has not distinguished himself this year. He has proven that he can produce power at the big-league level. That's a helluva lot more than I've seen from these other callups, who have proven next to nothing.

Of course the the Chicago White Sox will be rebuilding; how else will they improve in 2008 if not to rebuild the roster?

Wow, Fields hits home runs. So did Dave Kingman. Whoop-de-do...

JB98
08-30-2007, 10:13 PM
Of course the the Chicago White Sox will be rebuilding; how else will they improve in 2008 if not to rebuild the roster?

Wow, Fields hits home runs. So did Dave Kingman. Whoop-de-do...

After all, who needs home run hitters?

Fields beat KC with a single to right-center field just last week. He's shown power to the opposite field as well.

Just like Kingman. Great comparison.

JB98
08-30-2007, 10:14 PM
Oh, and Fields bunted for a base hit tonight.

Just like Kingman would have done it.

Grzegorz
08-30-2007, 10:14 PM
Just like Kingman. Great comparison.

Thank you, thank you very much...

Josh Fields: our Moses...

Not quite yet...

JB98
08-30-2007, 10:19 PM
Thank you, thank you very much...

Josh Fields: our Moses...

Not quite yet...

Yeah, he's Moses.

Nice hyperbole. All I said was that he's distinguished himself more than the other callups and played his way into the 2008 plans.

Grzegorz
08-30-2007, 10:23 PM
Yeah, he's Moses.

Nice hyperbole.

Thanks...

All I said was that he's distinguished himself more than the other callups and played his way into the 2008 plans.

As for distinguishing himself among the call ups I'll agree with you. But he has looked to be the best of a poor lot to date.

Has he played his way into the plans for 2008? Sure; but he'd better improve immensely in the field otherwise he's just another liability no matter the number of home runs he hits.

Maybe they'll DH him? Who knows...

Frontman
08-30-2007, 10:24 PM
Okay, who wishes Ozzie would register as a member at WSI so we could tell him how we feel?

No need to. Anyone with a brain and a pulse knows how Sox fans really feel about the Sox right now.

A. Cavatica
08-30-2007, 10:26 PM
You've got me. Gonzalez should be gone.

Thank you.

Ozzie can blow up at his players all he wants, but he's the one that wrote out a lineup (last night) with Gonzalez-Erstad-Uribe-Richar-Owens batting consecutively; he's the one playing his third baseman in left so that he can work Andy Gonzalez into the lineup; he's the one who used Anderson at DH and Mackowiak (or was it Ozuna?) in left earlier this year.

JB98
08-30-2007, 10:33 PM
Thank you.

Ozzie can blow up at his players all he wants, but he's the one that wrote out a lineup (last night) with Gonzalez-Erstad-Uribe-Richar-Owens batting consecutively; he's the one playing his third baseman in left so that he can work Andy Gonzalez into the lineup; he's the one who used Anderson at DH and Mackowiak (or was it Ozuna?) in left earlier this year.

We have mediocre and bad players, which is part of the problem.

We also have people who are giving up, which is not acceptable. That's why I think Ozzie's blowup is perfectly justified.

Viva Medias B's
08-30-2007, 10:52 PM
We also have people who are giving up, which is not acceptable.

That is why I want to see extreme turnover on the roster during the offseason. Except for Buehrle, Konerko, Jenks, probably Dye, and probably Vazquez, there are no sacred cows on this team.

SOXandILLINI
08-30-2007, 10:53 PM
I read about half the thread and vomitted in my mouth... "Bravo Ozzie".... whatever... JR gave him an "A" so he must be doing a good job. I am fully aware that there is plenty of blame to go around, but certainly he is a big reason why we are where we are, along with injuries and sub par performances by our players.

None of you want to seem to believe what metro had to say about Ozzies ramblings and losing control and respect of his team, believe what you want, I'll let the product speak for itself. As far as the point someone made about JD resigning, this is laughable, we couldn't even give him away as we neared the trading deadline, he was happy as a pig in feces to get that deal.

As beloved as I am on this board, I will not respond to the inevitable bashing I will take, enjoy your shots as much as you've enjoyed this year, and keep your heads buried in the sand.

kitekrazy
08-30-2007, 10:55 PM
Thanks...



As for distinguishing himself among the call ups I'll agree with you. But he has looked to be the best of a poor lot to date.

Has he played his way into the plans for 2008? Sure; but he'd better improve immensely in the field otherwise he's just another liability no matter the number of home runs he hits.

Maybe they'll DH him? Who knows...

Well the Sox always could use more career DHs. If he's that bad in the field what does that say about the coaching or scouting in this organization?

UserNameBlank
08-30-2007, 11:10 PM
As for distinguishing himself among the call ups I'll agree with you. But he has looked to be the best of a poor lot to date.

Has he played his way into the plans for 2008? Sure; but he'd better improve immensely in the field otherwise he's just another liability no matter the number of home runs he hits.

Maybe they'll DH him? Who knows...

Well the Sox always could use more career DHs. If he's that bad in the field what does that say about the coaching or scouting in this organization?

Josh Fields is a future DH? A career DH? A liability? ***???

He's a rookie who has only been concentrating fully on baseball for a little over 3 years now. What in the fiery hell makes anyone think he's a future DH? Is he slow? Does he have bad knees? How about a bad back?

Some of you people are crazy. You think Crede coming off of major back surgery is such a great option for 3B yet young, healthy Josh Fields is a liability? Anyone who has 35-40 HR power and is also capable of stealing 25 bags is not a liability. Josh just needs to learn in the Major Leagues both at the plate and in the field. How anyone could not be excited about Josh is crazy. He's going to make errors and mistakes and do dumb things every once in a while, but hell, give the kid his chance. Between Triple A and the Sox this year, with still another month to play and after a horrible start in Charlotte, he has a total of 27 home runs. In total he'll probably hit over 30 combined this year, up from 19 last year. Look at where the kid is now, where he came from, and how quickly he has risen. Josh is a special player and is going to get better no matter where the Sox put him.

Hitmen77
08-30-2007, 11:51 PM
If Fields is getting a tryout in LF, who else do we have to put at third? Ersty? Toby Hall?

You gotta love our new team slogan:
White Sox Baseball: Who the Hell Else Do We Have To Play Third?:(:

Nellie_Fox
08-30-2007, 11:53 PM
Plus we have no idea what really goes on in the clubhouse.This apparently can't be pointed out enough to all of the experts who are certain that they know whether Ozzie has "lost the team" or not.

If really none of us takes him seriously,think anyone on the team does?First of all, that's not a valid comparison. There's nothing Ozzie can do to any of us, so we don't need to take him seriously.

Okay, who wishes Ozzie would register as a member at WSI so we could tell him how we feel?Yeah, so all of the WSI posters who know more than any of the professional baseball people can set him straight. Of course, he'd get as many different versions of what to do (with a lot of "just cut this guy") as there are posters, but still...

Hitmen77
08-30-2007, 11:55 PM
Neither has Fields other than to prove he's an Adam Dunn clone.

Of course the the Chicago White Sox will be rebuilding; how else will they improve in 2008 if not to rebuild the roster?

Wow, Fields hits home runs. So did Dave Kingman. Whoop-de-do...

So, a 24-yr old rookie with only 300 career ABs is already set to become an Adam Dunn or Dave Kingman clone?:?:

Chipol
08-31-2007, 12:23 AM
Just wondering , are you a person that hates Zambrano for getting fired up and getting in someones face when they lay down on the job. If so, you and everybody else calling for Konerko to get fired up and in peoples faces, are being very hypocritical.

Don't read too much into it. I just think that slamming your bat when you fail is maybe not the best example of leadership that one might come up with.

I'm the kind of person who doesn't believe in magic formulas. I've seen teams succeed when they all hate each other and I've seen teams succeed when they are bands of brothers. So, I'm not dogmatic enough to be a hypocrite.

This is a team that has something wrong. I don't claim to know what it is. Yes, they have half of Charlotte playing here now, but they layed down some time last year and haven't come out of the fetal position since. I don't know if they have quit on Ozzie, quit on each other or quit on themselves individually. But they have definitely and embarrassingly quit. Personally, I doubt if Ozzie or Paulie or AJ teeing off now or last May or last July would have made any difference.

Oh, and I don't give a **** about Zambrano one way or another.

WhiteSox5187
08-31-2007, 12:25 AM
No need to. Anyone with a brain and a pulse knows how Sox fans really feel about the Sox right now.
He's been saying that Sox players should be embarrased (or that he's embarrased and that the fans are disgusted) since June. Ozzie knows how we feel. I'm sure his players have heard this tirade a lot since June...I think that this is just the first time the press has heard it.

Mercy!
08-31-2007, 05:20 AM
Ozzie Gets Angry, part deux:
''When they see my wife, I hope they say, 'Look at that [expletive], that's Ozzie's wife, she's [married] to a piece of [expletive] like him.' Good, as long as in October we have the trophy. That's what I want. I'd rather they hate me and we win because when we win, no one hates anyone.''Classy. And what kind of mope talks like this in front of people with recorders and notebooks, anyway? Way to bring your wife into the discussion, Oz.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/536510,CST-SPT-soxnt31.article

Grzegorz
08-31-2007, 05:36 AM
Josh Fields is a future DH? A career DH? A liability? ***???

Some of you people are crazy. You think Crede coming off of major back surgery is such a great option for 3B yet young, healthy Josh Fields is a liability?

Crazy??? Nice ad hominem attacks.

Crede before the surgery was better than Fields. Unless this guy improves in the field he's nothing more than a rookie with some pop. At this point his defense is a liability.

I believe he'll get better defensively but he'll have to to contribute to a winning franchise.

nccwsfan
08-31-2007, 08:25 AM
KW/OG told everyone last week that Fields will start in LF for the remainder of 2007 so that he can work towards being a capable LF for the White Sox in 2008. Joe Crede, if healthy and not moved, will be the starting 3B for the White Sox in 2008. Josh Fields, proven to be someone capable of helping this team, will need a position to play if Crede is the everyday 3B. So why are some people up in arms about this?

What harm is it doing the team or Josh Fields to see if he can play in the OF? If Andy Gonzalez is the 3B the rest of the season, or if Alex Cintron takes over at 3B, or if they continue to play Danny Richar at 2B- who cares? It's one thing if they were trying to make it to the postseason, but this team's been out of it for some time now.

The White Sox should be looking at Fields, Richar, Owens, Gonzalez, Wassermann, Floyd, or any of the September callups to see how/where they can contribute in 2008. Worrying about their performance in 2007 is pointless. It truly sucks to watch this team play right now, but looking at the big picture I can suffer another month provided they come back with a (much) better team in 2008.

And FWIW I'd like to see Fields and Richar return (as starters).

soxfan13
08-31-2007, 09:49 AM
. I just think that slamming your bat when you fail is maybe not the best example of leadership that one might come up with.


.

All I am saying is that there is something called leading by example. Just because we dont see Paulie getting in someones face doesnt mean it doesnt happen. Maybe he believes that it is something that should be done behind closed doors. Thats the BIG thing that is missing. Unless you actually work the clubhouse there isnt a person here that can know what kind of a leader Paulie really is.

russ99
08-31-2007, 02:40 PM
Ozzie may have blown a gasket a little too much the last few days, but his greatest quote ever came out of it:

'It's the same thing every day. It's like your kid is 2 years old and he likes Barney. And you put that little [expletive] down there for three hours watching that [expletive] back and forth, back and forth, the same song for six hours. That's what I've been doing since April. Same [expletive] thing. Rewind it. 'You OK? Yeah, OK, here's your bottle, keep watching Barney.'''Aw, man. :D: This begs for a Palehose cartoon...

getonbckthr
08-31-2007, 04:38 PM
Well they bored us for the past 5 months but starting in October the White Sox will be a very interesting thing to watch,

MetroPD
08-31-2007, 05:24 PM
I'm glad you know everything. Dye stated that one of his main factors in staying was that he's confident that the team will get going in the right direction again. If he thought Ozzie was an idiot, why would he say something like that?

Enlighten us, please.

Jermaine Dye is 33. It isn't like he's ancient.
Apparently you know nothing. Dye can state whatever he wants, the fact is, we were trying like hell to peddle him to another team........no takers. Players will play for anyone, thats what they get paid for. As for enlightening "us" the only person who isn't getting it, is you. Dye is 33, how many times in his career has he been hurt? What happened throughout this year with him? Oh yeah he was hurt. You may think Ozzie is the bees knees, but incoherent ramblings in the media with less than 30 games left and second to last in wins, means a hill of beans.
I don't think so. By talking about being fired, he's showing the players he's willing to consider the possibility that he's the problem.
Yeah over and over and yet he continued to say the same thing, if we the general public are smart enough to say "hey Ozzie, give it a break will ya? You're not going anywhere for the short time being, afterall we did win a world championship with you at helm...." Don't you think the players are the ball club are smart enough to figure that out as well? Don't you think they're probably thinking the same thing, "Why the hell doesn't this guy just shut up about getting fired already?"

whitesoxfan
08-31-2007, 05:38 PM
Ozzie rules. It's about time someone said something about this **** that's been spewing up crap the whole season on the South Side. His comments were pure gold.

WhiteFlight
08-31-2007, 06:08 PM
Guillen has a reactive personality, both in the way he answers questions and in how he manages his baseball teams. Reactive decision making is usually a trait of the uneducated, whereas intelligent people often employ calculated responses.

Mercy!
08-31-2007, 06:35 PM
Guillen has a reactive personality, both in the way he answers questions and in how he manages his baseball teams. Reactive decision making is usually a trait of the uneducated, whereas intelligent people often employ calculated responses.
Oops. Your first statement was perceptive enough. In your second, however, you make the mistake of conflating native intelligence with amount of formal schooling. Bzzzzzt.

Jerko
08-31-2007, 06:38 PM
I agree with Ozzie. I'm sick of watching the same **** since April too. I include him in the same **** category. Maybe by NEXT August we'll know that Thornton can't get Sizemore out. I know that's only one example but he's not blameless in this mess since last July. Last year was musical lineups, this year it's like watching somebody with the terminal shakes trying to read a safe combination: LRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRL47 37 54 36 bull****. NOBODY in this organization has ANY room to talk right about now.

thechico
08-31-2007, 06:48 PM
After all that hoopla about the Sox being a "B" Team, I stand corrected

B team? B TEAM?!!!!!

This is a F team and the way they're headed, F minus.:angry: Yeah, the team has the "potential" to be an A team, but like in school, you get the grades you earn. This team has been the worst I can recall in 26 years of fandom. I'm glad Ozzie finally got on his horse. We didn't need and still don't need another version of General Disarray. Ozzie *may* lack some of the cold calculating skills of legendary mangers of the past, but the fire in his belly is what always made him stand out. PH7 may see it as the "legend" of OG, but I see it as the real OG. Hope he sticks around awhile.
/rant

ChiMan921
08-31-2007, 06:54 PM
I opened a thread a couple weeks ago about the Sox acting like a "B" team, management focused on waiting, waiting, waiting for "next year". I am extremely pleased that Ozzie said it like it is - these guys have to play like winners this year, so this management team can determine who stays and who goes and we can field a winner in 2008.

Ozzie - I am in your corner, regardless of the outcome. Go Sox! :bandance:

Mercy!
08-31-2007, 07:55 PM
So how's that working out so far on the field for Oz?

UserNameBlank
08-31-2007, 08:23 PM
Crazy??? Nice ad hominem attacks.

Crede before the surgery was better than Fields. Unless this guy improves in the field he's nothing more than a rookie with some pop. At this point his defense is a liability.

I believe he'll get better defensively but he'll have to to contribute to a winning franchise.
That's not exactly an ad hominem attack. If I had just insulted you without responding to your point it would have been, but then I would have gotten banned again so I wouldn't do that. If you thought "crazy" was an insult then I apologize.

That said, I don't know what you expect from Josh. I've already stated how far he's come from where he was, and it's pretty clear that he has improved a ton both at the plate and in the field from where he was, so what gives you reason to believe he isn't going to get better in a relatively short period of regular playing time?

He's not going to get any better as the 3B by playing LF, and he's not going to be a good OF after only playing LF for a short period in winterball. If you want to call his defense a liability you have to look at what he brings offensively. How much is he really hurting the team with his mistakes? Is he making up for some of those mistakes at the plate? And if you still want to call him a liability, which would be totally untrue IMO because I'm a sure half of MLB or more would be lined up around the block to get him as their 3B if he was for sale, then you're just going to have to get used to it. Josh is capable of playing for a winning franchise, and if you don't think so then you really need to reassess your expectations because we're never going to have a team full of faultless players.

ChiMan921
08-31-2007, 09:27 PM
Pretty good, based on the fundamentally sound play tonight against the Indians! :D:

SOXandILLINI
08-31-2007, 09:35 PM
That's not exactly an ad hominem attack. If I had just insulted you without responding to your point it would have been, but then I would have gotten banned again so I wouldn't do that. If you thought "crazy" was an insult then I apologize.

That said, I don't know what you expect from Josh. I've already stated how far he's come from where he was, and it's pretty clear that he has improved a ton both at the plate and in the field from where he was, so what gives you reason to believe he isn't going to get better in a relatively short period of regular playing time?

He's not going to get any better as the 3B by playing LF, and he's not going to be a good OF after only playing LF for a short period in winterball. If you want to call his defense a liability you have to look at what he brings offensively. How much is he really hurting the team with his mistakes? Is he making up for some of those mistakes at the plate? And if you still want to call him a liability, which would be totally untrue IMO because I'm a sure half of MLB or more would be lined up around the block to get him as their 3B if he was for sale, then you're just going to have to get used to it. Josh is capable of playing for a winning franchise, and if you don't think so then you really need to reassess your expectations because we're never going to have a team full of faultless players.

Oh, getting banned isn't all that bad.... :bandance:

Grzegorz
08-31-2007, 09:56 PM
That's not exactly an ad hominem attack. If I had just insulted you without responding to your point it would have been, but then I would have gotten banned again so I wouldn't do that. If you thought "crazy" was an insult then I apologize.

Sorry, I overreacted...

I just want Fields to play in the winter and work on his defense. Consistent contact to boost his average a little would help too.

It's been such a long year and tonight (8/31) falls into line with all the other gems of this year...

Frontman
08-31-2007, 09:59 PM
Pretty good, based on the fundamentally sound play tonight against the Indians! :D:

You had to say that, didn't you?

Talk about jinxing it.

:wink:

ChiMan921
08-31-2007, 11:03 PM
Man, I should get banned just for that last post ! :rolleyes::whiner:
This is a season from hell.....just when do the 'Hawks open up? :redface:

UserNameBlank
08-31-2007, 11:08 PM
Sorry, I overreacted...

I just want Fields to play in the winter and work on his defense. Consistent contact to boost his average a little would help too.

It's been such a long year and tonight (8/31) falls into line with all the other gems of this year...
Nah, it's cool. I think its easy caught up in the suckiness of this season and get annoyed by all the players, but Josh has really made some huge strides since being drafted and the mistakes he's made this year are going to be made by any rookie in his spot, especially one replacing one of the best defensive 3B in baseball. I could be wrong, but I imagine a year from now you'll be very happy with Mr. Fields. If we had a few more like him on this team we'd be in terrific shape.

BTW, at the beginning of the season people around baseball were talking up Kevin Kouzmanoff, Andy Marte, and Alex Gordon. Fields I believe was ranked lower than all of them, but guess what? The only young 3B who have been better at the dish than Josh this year are Miguel Cabrera, David Wright, Ryan Braun, and Ryan Zimmerman albeit in a bunch more AB's and with a lot more pro experience. You could maybe throw Edwin Encarnacion in there but Josh is going to be a lot better than him too, and Edwin doesn't have near Josh's power. Basically, the company mentioned above is the type of company Josh is going to be in offensively. He's not going to be as good at the plate as Cabrera, but he'll be in that discussion right below him.

UserNameBlank
08-31-2007, 11:10 PM
Oh, getting banned isn't all that bad.... :bandance:
Last time I was banned it was during the trade deadline. I had a lot of *****ing to do about dumping Mackowiak for nothing and I couldn't do it here. :(

Nellie_Fox
09-01-2007, 01:23 AM
Guillen has a reactive personality, both in the way he answers questions and in how he manages his baseball teams. Reactive decision making is usually a trait of the uneducated, whereas intelligent people often employ calculated responses.Enjoyed that Psych 101 class, I see. By the way, uneducated and intelligent are not mutually exclusive concepts.

So how's that working out so far on the field for Oz?That might be a legitimate question if Ozzie did the rant to try to rally the team, but I really don't think that was it. He knows this season is long gone. There's no point in trying a motivational trick now. I think he's just genuinely angry and frustrated, and it boiled over. No ulterior motives. Besides, that would be "calculated." :wink:

FarWestChicago
09-01-2007, 09:01 AM
If you thought "crazy" was an insult then I apologize.

Sorry, I overreacted...Well done, gentlemen. You guys are both good posters and it's nice to see you work it out instead of degenerating into a flame war. Good stuff. :thumbsup:

southside rocks
09-01-2007, 09:29 AM
That might be a legitimate question if Ozzie did the rant to try to rally the team, but I really don't think that was it. He knows this season is long gone. There's no point in trying a motivational trick now. I think he's just genuinely angry and frustrated, and it boiled over. No ulterior motives. Besides, that would be "calculated." :wink:

I think Ozzie wouldn't mind if the team 'woke up' after his tirades, but I too do not think that's why he went off like that. He didn't stage a kick-dirt-on-an-umpire scene the day after he promised the media he would lose his temper; he just got as frustrated as we all are -- probably about a hundred times moreso, actually -- and blew a gasket.

As for being reactive, that has nothing to do with education; it's a temperament trait. A reactive person who is highly educated will STILL be reactive, but the content of their reactions may be different. That's true in dogs and it's true in humans, and I never took any psych classes, but I've trained a lot of reactive dogs. They're generally very smart, almost too smart. For what that's worth. :tongue: If Ozzie had graduated from Harvard, he might not f-bomb so much but he'd still be Ozzie. Thank goodness for that, I say.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-01-2007, 10:31 AM
It's just incoherent rambling.

Yep. And perhaps that's why it's effective. Nobody knows what Ozzie is talking about and everybody implicitly understands their manager is simply blowing off steam... and deservedly so. There isn't an honest ballplayer in the Sox clubhouse who would deny the team has been mailing it in the last 2 weeks.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-01-2007, 10:35 AM
At least per his experience on the Giants, AJ grates on people when times are tough. That's where a real leader on this team would help - to handle AJ....because he is really positive at times too.

Personally I'm glad cooler weather is just around the corner. Spending four months getting your ass kicked is always unpleasant to a competitor, and sitting in a hot sweaty dugout knowing you have six more weeks of this crap to endure will push some people over the edge.

Winning cures all.

soxfan13
09-01-2007, 12:20 PM
Man, I should get banned just for that last post ! :rolleyes::whiner:
This is a season from hell.....just when do the 'Hawks open up? :redface:

Man o man I feel really bad for you if thats all you have to look forward to:tongue::gulp:

kitekrazy
09-01-2007, 12:44 PM
Man o man I feel really bad for you if thats all you have to look forward to:tongue::gulp:

That guy must really hate himself. That team should be banned from the city and the state.

Nellie_Fox
09-02-2007, 02:25 AM
That guy must really hate himself. That team should be banned from the city and the state.Wirtz should be banned from the city and the state, but not the Blackhawks. Some day they will rise again.