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Sockinchisox
08-28-2007, 12:21 PM
http://www.examiner.com/a-903190~Not_looking_so_great_for__08.html

The most intriguing outfielders coming onto the market are Torii Hunter and Aaron Rowand, though Rowand is rumored to be closing in on a new deal with the Phillies.

eriqjaffe
08-28-2007, 12:25 PM
If he doesn’t want an arm and a leg, I might take a chance on a project like Kerry Wood.I find this kind of funny, in an ironic way.

getonbckthr
08-28-2007, 01:01 PM
I pray to god he resigns with Philly.

Chips
08-28-2007, 01:05 PM
I pray to god he resigns with Philly.

I do not want him back here either.

SBSoxFan
08-28-2007, 01:09 PM
I find this kind of funny, in an ironic way.

:rolling: He won't want an arm and a leg; all he needs is an arm!


I suspect Todd Jones stays with Detroit, ditto Joe Nathan with Minnesota.Ok. For the upteenth time, Nathan's not a free agent until after 2008, correct?

eriqjaffe
08-28-2007, 01:14 PM
For the upteenth time, Nathan's not a free agent until after 2008, correct?The Twins have a $6million option on him next year, so he potentially could be on the market, but I doubt the Twins would be foolish enough to not exercise the option.

Gammons Peter
08-28-2007, 01:20 PM
please be true

/do not want

SBSoxFan
08-28-2007, 01:25 PM
The Twins have a $6million option on him next year, so he potentially could be on the market, but I doubt the Twins would be foolish enough to not exercise the option.

ok. Thanks.

TDog
08-28-2007, 01:26 PM
Aaron Rowand would probably get a better deal from the Phillies than he would from the White Sox. He is having a great season, and he may be one of those guys who benefits from playing his best in his free-agent year.

Still, I believe there are people in the White Sox organization who want him back. There are people I wouldn't want to see back with the Sox -- some still in the organization. But Aaron Rowand isn't one of them.

The Critic
08-28-2007, 01:27 PM
I think it's just a sign-and-trade.
They probably want Gavin Floyd back, or Gio Gonzalez again.

Mr. White Sox
08-28-2007, 01:38 PM
Aaron Rowand would probably get a better deal from the Phillies than he would from the White Sox. He is having a great season, and he may be one of those guys who benefits from playing his best in his free-agent year.

Still, I believe there are people in the White Sox organization who want him back. There are people I wouldn't want to see back with the Sox -- some still in the organization. But Aaron Rowand isn't one of them.

I could see Rowand getting something like 4/48 from Philadelphia, which is way over his true value IMO. The White Sox could offer 3/30, but I still wouldn't love that deal. If Rowand signs with Philly, there are pluses and minuses. Plus: KW can't pursue Aaron. Minus: The CF market is further thinned out, driving up the price for Torii and "crashin" Druw-Jones-Average (DJA). I'm probably the only person who thinks Corey Patterson could fit in CF here at a low cost, so I'll keep that to myself as much as possible.

The Immigrant
08-28-2007, 01:47 PM
I'm not sure why the Phillies would spend $10 million/year on Rowand when they have Victorino and Bourn to play CF and RF. They should spend their money on pitching instead.

palehozenychicty
08-28-2007, 01:51 PM
I'm not sure why the Phillies would spend $10 million/year on Rowand when they have Victorino and Bourn to play CF and RF. They should spend their money on pitching instead.


The thing, though, is that the pitching free-agent pool is very unattractive. An old Curt Schilling, returning to the Phils? Nope. Maybe Andy Pettitte, who has thrown well this year, but has a shaky elbow. Mr. Freddy Garcia? Remember him?

Yuck. I'd build up their scouting department and develop my own pitchers.

salty99
08-28-2007, 02:12 PM
I would rather have Torii

infohawk
08-28-2007, 03:33 PM
The Twins have a $6million option on him next year, so he potentially could be on the market, but I doubt the Twins would be foolish enough to not exercise the option.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Terry Ryan attempt to trade him for a couple of prospects. An organization like the Twins needs a steady supply of pre-arbitration eligible players. I would suspect they could get some quality young players for Nathan.

jabrch
08-28-2007, 03:46 PM
The thing, though, is that the pitching free-agent pool is very unattractive. An old Curt Schilling, returning to the Phils? Nope. Maybe Andy Pettitte, who has thrown well this year, but has a shaky elbow. Mr. Freddy Garcia? Remember him?

Yuck. I'd build up their scouting department and develop my own pitchers.

I'm sure they'd love to have Gio Gonzalez right about now...

jenn2080
08-28-2007, 06:01 PM
I pray to god he resigns with Philly.

I do not want him back here either.


That makes 3 of us.

champagne030
08-28-2007, 08:02 PM
I'm sure they'd love to have Gio Gonzalez right about now...

And I wish Kenny hadn't thought so highly of Gavin.........

Martinigirl
08-28-2007, 08:22 PM
The odd thing is that I like Aaron, yet the "Rowand Workship" has made me loathe the thought of him coming back to the Sox.

I hope he stays in Philly and has a wonderful career.

rowand33
08-28-2007, 08:42 PM
I obviously would like him back, but if we sign Torii I'll be happy.

As long as our CF does not come for the organization.

kittle42
08-28-2007, 09:25 PM
As long as our CF does not come for the organization.

I think you meant "from," and if so, I *completely* agree.

Frater Perdurabo
08-28-2007, 10:17 PM
I obviously would like him back, but if we sign Torii I'll be happy.

As long as our CF does not come for the organization.

I think you meant "from," and if so, I *completely* agree.

I wouldn't mind Rowand coming back. There are a couple of problems, though, and they aren't his fault.

The first is the projected outfield defense. Dye's lost a step and Fields clearly isn't great with the glove in left. So the Sox really need great defense in CF. This can be found on the FA market - Cameron, Rowand (if he doesn't re-sign with Philly), Hunter or Jones. The problem is that none of these guys would be a very good leadoff hitter.

A SS like Eckstein can lead off, but his range and arm leave a lot to be desired. I don't know of any FA SSs who can lead off, either.

A Furcal for Contreras swap would be great, as this fills SS and leadoff. The problem with that, though, is that I don't think the Sox would turn around and spend the money needed to sign one of the FA CFs.

I've decided that if the Sox got Furcal, they would be OK offensively 1-8, and therefore I'd be OK with having Anderson bat ninth to get his glove on the field.

:duck:

VivaOzzie
08-28-2007, 10:31 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see Terry Ryan attempt to trade him for a couple of prospects. An organization like the Twins needs a steady supply of pre-arbitration eligible players. I would suspect they could get some quality young players for Nathan.


http://johan-santana-news.newslib.com/img/logo/1761.jpg
"I think I'm going to puke."

Brian26
08-28-2007, 10:49 PM
I would rather have Torii

I would be surprised if the Sox don't end up with Torii. Some subtle, and some not-so-subtle, hints have been tossed about. Hunter's talked about his love for Chicago, and Buehrle's dropped some hints about KW going after some big, exciting names.

That leaves leftfield open as a possibility for Rowand, but the cost, especially after signing Hunter, won't be worth it.

Sargeant79
08-28-2007, 11:30 PM
I've decided that if the Sox got Furcal, they would be OK offensively 1-8, and therefore I'd be OK with having Anderson bat ninth to get his glove on the field.

:duck:

I was an Anderson apologist for most of last year and thought he should have been given more of a fair chance at the beginning of this season. But there is no way he is going to see the majors again while in this organization.

Andruw Jones is an overpriced pipe dream. I think Hunter will want too long of a contract and Rowand's desired annual salary will be too high. Cameron may very well be our best out-of-organization CF option for next year.

Domeshot17
08-28-2007, 11:59 PM
I would be surprised if the Sox don't end up with Torii. Some subtle, and some not-so-subtle, hints have been tossed about. Hunter's talked about his love for Chicago, and Buehrle's dropped some hints about KW going after some big, exciting names.

That leaves leftfield open as a possibility for Rowand, but the cost, especially after signing Hunter, won't be worth it.


Ehh Ill believe it when I see it. Torri has also said how he would love to play in New York, how he could rome center in Boston, Torri has basically been on a self marketing campaign all season long. Buehrle is doing his part to keep us hoping. I mean maybe we go big, but who is the last BIG free agent Kenny Williams signed? I don't even count JD, because we went after him as a cheap replacement guy, we just caught lightning in a bottle. We don't play free agency because Kenny feels trapped. He lives and dies with trades. So far hes about 50/50

TDog
08-29-2007, 12:44 AM
I obviously would like him back, but if we sign Torii I'll be happy.

As long as our CF does not come for the organization.

Since Rowand left, the White Sox centerfielders have been against the organization. Often they seem to have been for disorganization.

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2007, 12:58 AM
Ehh Ill believe it when I see it. Torri has also said how he would love to play in New York, how he could rome center in Boston, Actually, he has said Boston is one place he doesn't want to go. That's where he broke his ankle, and he doesn't like all the odd angles of the wall. He doesn't like the green monster because he can't bring back home run balls.

He doesn't like Wrigley because he doesn't want to jump into the tree branches on the walls. Other than that, yeah, he's pretty much kissed up to every other team in baseball.

WhiteSox5187
08-29-2007, 01:32 AM
I wouldn't mind Rowand coming back. There are a couple of problems, though, and they aren't his fault.

The first is the projected outfield defense. Dye's lost a step and Fields clearly isn't great with the glove in left. So the Sox really need great defense in CF. This can be found on the FA market - Cameron, Rowand (if he doesn't re-sign with Philly), Hunter or Jones. The problem is that none of these guys would be a very good leadoff hitter.

A SS like Eckstein can lead off, but his range and arm leave a lot to be desired. I don't know of any FA SSs who can lead off, either.

A Furcal for Contreras swap would be great, as this fills SS and leadoff. The problem with that, though, is that I don't think the Sox would turn around and spend the money needed to sign one of the FA CFs.

I've decided that if the Sox got Furcal, they would be OK offensively 1-8, and therefore I'd be OK with having Anderson bat ninth to get his glove on the field.

:duck:
His OBP leaves a lot to be desired, but he's got a bad back and that's unnerving. Ya know where he'd be a great fit defensively? Second base. This isn't going to happen, but if you could get Furcal at short, Eckstein at second and either Rowand, Torri, Cameron or even bring back Anderson, you'd be pretty set up the middle. Having said that though, it's not going to happen.

kittle42
08-29-2007, 11:09 AM
This isn't going to happen, but if you could get Furcal at short, Eckstein at second and either Rowand, Torri, Cameron or even bring back Anderson, you'd be pretty set up the middle. Having said that though, it's not going to happen.

Rowand, Hunter, Cameron, Anderson.

One of these names does not fit.

WhiteSox5187
08-29-2007, 01:16 PM
Rowand, Hunter, Cameron, Anderson.

One of these names does not fit.
Obviously Anderson isn't as good offensively as the other three, but he gets the job done defensively.

SBSoxFan
08-29-2007, 02:06 PM
Obviously Anderson isn't as good offensively as the other three, but he gets the job done defensively.

Isn't Cameron, far and away, the third best CF on that list? It makes me sad to think our expectations have become so low. I also see that Cameron is going to turn 35 this off season while Rowand just turned 30.

Tragg
08-29-2007, 02:25 PM
Rowand, Hunter, Cameron, Anderson.

One of these names does not fit.
In the context as written, "being set up the middle" that would be Rowand who doesn't fit. If you're talking offensively, Anderson.
Anderson's O would be tolerable, if you offset it with a SS who could hit. (who that is, I have no idea). If the Sox plan on wheeling Owens and his .310 obp and arm in CF next year, well, Sweeney and Anderson should be in the mix as well (barring an Owens offensive explosion).

oeo
08-29-2007, 02:26 PM
I would rather have Torii

Alright, I finally bite on this one. Torii Hunter is not head and shoulders better than Aaron Rowand. Just say no to spending an extra $3-5 million on an overrated player.

People around here hate Aaron Rowand because all the love he gets, but I see even more love for a guy that's just as much overrated. Torii Hunter does not deserve $17-18 million, period.

Am I saying I want Rowand back? Not necessarily, but if I had the choice between him and Torii, I would pick Rowand. You can spend that extra money saved on some bullpen help...and get a better overall offensive player to boot.

getonbckthr
08-29-2007, 02:28 PM
Rowand, Hunter, Cameron, Anderson.

One of these names does not fit.
Truly they are all average with Anderson being the unknown due to his limited experience.

salty99
08-29-2007, 02:53 PM
Alright, I finally bite on this one. Torii Hunter is not head and shoulders better than Aaron Rowand. Just say no to spending an extra $3-5 million on an overrated player.

People around here hate Aaron Rowand because all the love he gets, but I see even more love for a guy that's just as much overrated. Torii Hunter does not deserve $17-18 million, period.

Am I saying I want Rowand back? Not necessarily, but if I had the choice between him and Torii, I would pick Rowand. You can spend that extra money saved on some bullpen help...and get a better overall offensive player to boot.


Honestly I'll take any of those guys over Anderson. Using money as logic, why don't we just keep Owens there then and use the money on bullpen, shortstop, etc. etc.

eriqjaffe
08-29-2007, 02:58 PM
Honestly I'll take any of those guys over Anderson. Using money as logic, why don't we just keep Owens there then and use the money on bullpen, shortstop, etc. etc.Because Owens is far better suited for left field, since he has a noodle arm.

And I'm talking linguini, not one of those stockier rigatoni noodles.

thomas35forever
08-29-2007, 03:13 PM
Alright, I finally bite on this one. Torii Hunter is not head and shoulders better than Aaron Rowand. Just say no to spending an extra $3-5 million on an overrated player.

Personally, given the choice, I would rather have Rowand back. However, I wouldn't call Hunter overrated. His defense is just as, if not more spectacular. I'm not exactly sure why you're calling him overrated. Is is because of the asking price? What would be reasonable to lure him to the Sox?

chisoxmike
08-29-2007, 03:14 PM
People around here hate Aaron Rowand because all the love he gets, but I see even more love for a guy that's just as much overrated.

Who?

getonbckthr
08-29-2007, 03:19 PM
Personally, given the choice, I would rather have Rowand back. However, I wouldn't call Hunter overrated. His defense is just as, if not more spectacular. I'm not exactly sure why you're calling him overrated. Is is because of the asking price? What would be reasonable to lure him to the Sox?
Aaron Rowand is not spectacular on defense he is average. Daredevilism may become a spectacle in itself but it doesn't make him great.

getonbckthr
08-29-2007, 03:20 PM
People around here hate Aaron Rowand because all the love he gets, but I see even more love for a guy that's just as much overrated. Torii Hunter does not deserve $17-18 million, period.

.
I don't hate Aaron Rowand I just don't buy into the Willie Mays status other Sox fans give him.

kevingrt
08-29-2007, 03:34 PM
Aaron Rowand is not spectacular on defense he is average. Daredevilism may become a spectacle in itself but it doesn't make him great.

He reads the ball really well. He developed that in the Sox organization and it has worked brilliantly for him. He is not speedy fast out there but has guts.

eriqjaffe
08-29-2007, 03:35 PM
All the same, I think Aaron Rowand at $10 million per year is a far better value than Torii Hunter at $14 million a year, especially when you consider that Hunter is a couple years older.

If nothing else, Rowand coming back would make Chris Rogney's job easier. :D:

oeo
08-29-2007, 03:48 PM
Who?

What do you mean, "who?" There are more people around here that dislike Rowand for whatever reason than like him. Then on the Torii Hunter side, just look at the number of people that want to sign him because he said he'd like to play here. It's stupid, IMO, to not want to bring Rowand back because some people overrate him, while Mr. Hunter (who is overrated, too) is wanted. **** Torii Hunter and the salary he'll be demanding...I'll come right out and say that Rowand is just as good, and can come with a smaller price.

I don't hate Aaron Rowand I just don't buy into the Willie Mays status other Sox fans give him.

And that's a reason not to bring him back? I wouldn't expect a savior if Rowand were to come back, but just because some people think he's the seconding coming, doesn't mean he's the exact opposite. He's not bad, he's not great, but he would fill a big hole of ours, and do a pretty solid job at the same time. With Wells, Ichiro, Byrnes off the free agent market, it looks like Rowand is the guy that's going to give you the most bang for the buck.

All the same, I think Aaron Rowand at $10 million per year is a far better value than Torii Hunter at $14 million a year, especially when you consider that Hunter is a couple years older.

$14 million? They're talking about him getting closer to Ichiro/Vernon Wells money.

chisoxmike
08-29-2007, 03:51 PM
What do you mean, "who?"

You said you see more love for a guy here that is just as overrated (as Rowand). Did you mean Torii Hunter? Or someone currently on the Sox?

I'm not trying to slam you, I was just wondering.

oeo
08-29-2007, 03:55 PM
You said you see more love for a guy here that is just as overrated (as Rowand). Did you mean Torii Hunter? Or someone currently on the Sox?

I'm not trying to slam you, I was just wondering.

Yes...sorry, I meant Hunter. I thought you were asking who feels that way.

Look around and there are more supporters of bringing Hunter in, probably because they just don't want to bring Rowand back.

chisoxmike
08-29-2007, 03:58 PM
Yes...sorry, I meant Hunter. I thought you were asking who feels that way.

Look around and there are more supporters of bringing Hunter in, probably because they just don't want to bring Rowand back.

Yeah, I don't think Hunter will have that much of an impact on the '08 team (if signed) as a lot of people think he will. There are A LOT of holes on this team. CF is one of seven.

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2007, 04:12 PM
Look around and there are more supporters of bringing Hunter in, probably because they just don't want to bring Rowand back.Personally, I just think Hunter is a better player than Rowand. I don't hate Rowand.

getonbckthr
08-29-2007, 04:15 PM
He reads the ball really well. He developed that in the Sox organization and it has worked brilliantly for him. He is not speedy fast out there but has guts.
Actually your way off here. He has horrible reads and routes. Thats why he is always diving and sliding, mean while guys like Andruw Jones and Brian Anderson for the most part don't because they get good reads and take excellent routes.

getonbckthr
08-29-2007, 04:18 PM
And that's a reason not to bring him back? I wouldn't expect a savior if Rowand were to come back, but just because some people think he's the seconding coming, doesn't mean he's the exact opposite. He's not bad, he's not great, but he would fill a big hole of ours, and do a pretty solid job at the same time. With Wells, Ichiro, Byrnes off the free agent market, it looks like Rowand is the guy that's going to give you the most bang for the buck.
Rowand at somewhere between 10-12 million per year is no where near enough bang for your buck. He is an average fielder and besides this season a below average hitter. We just resigned an outfielder who is an average fielder and an above average hitter for 11 million. If I have to choose between Owens at 350,000 and Rowand for 11 million I wouldn't hesitate it would be Owens in a land-slide.

thedudeabides
08-29-2007, 04:20 PM
Actually your way off here. He has horrible reads and routes. Thats why he is always diving and sliding, mean while guys like Andruw Jones and Brian Anderson for the most part don't because they get good reads and take excellent routes.

Some people here overrate his defense, but you vastly underrate it. You talk as if he's a bad cf'er, when in fact he is very good. Torii Hunter crashes into walls as much as anyone and he plays a deepf cf.

getonbckthr
08-29-2007, 04:22 PM
Some people here overrate his defense, but you vastly underrate it. You talk as if he's a bad cf'er, when in fact he is very good. Torii Hunter crashes into walls as much as anyone and he plays a deepf cf.
I think Hunter is over-rated as well. I didn't say he is bad I said he is average.

thedudeabides
08-29-2007, 04:27 PM
I think Hunter is over-rated as well. I didn't say he is bad I said he is average.

Why do you think they are average. The only reason I see you give is they make highlight reel plays. Sometimes you have to.

Rowand gets to balls in the gap and goes back on the ball great. When with the Sox, at times, he had difficulty coming in on balls and hard liners hit right at him. If you watch him now, he has improved on both of those things. He can't get as bad of reads as you claim, because he doesn't have blazing speed.

getonbckthr
08-29-2007, 04:31 PM
Why do you think they are average. The only reason I see you give is they make highlight reel plays. Sometimes you have to.

Rowand gets to balls in the gap and goes back on the ball great. When with the Sox, at times, he had difficulty coming in on balls and hard liners hit right at him. If you watch him now, he has improved on both of those things. He can't get as bad of reads as you claim, because he doesn't have blazing speed.
These "Web Gems" they make are simple flyballs for Jones, Ichiro and Anderson. You wanna know how you see a great CF'r look how shallow he plays. Rowand and Hunter play relatively deep.

spiffie
08-29-2007, 04:32 PM
Rowand at somewhere between 10-12 million per year is no where near enough bang for your buck. He is an average fielder and besides this season a below average hitter. We just resigned an outfielder who is an average fielder and an above average hitter for 11 million. If I have to choose between Owens at 350,000 and Rowand for 11 million I wouldn't hesitate it would be Owens in a land-slide.
Just something to keep in mind:

2004-2007 batting lines:
Hunter: 280/336/492/828
Rowand: 289/348/472/820

thedudeabides
08-29-2007, 04:37 PM
These "Web Gems" they make are simple flyballs for Jones, Ichiro and Anderson. You wanna know how you see a great CF'r look how shallow he plays. Rowand and Hunter play relatively deep.

Jones and Ichiro are better outfielders, I just think you tend to underrate these guys. They are above average. Believe me I don't judge a player on Web Gems, I don't even watch ESPN.

getonbckthr
08-29-2007, 04:42 PM
Just something to keep in mind:

2004-2007 batting lines:
Hunter: 280/336/492/828
Rowand: 289/348/472/820
Pretty even but then throw in that Hunter has averaged 6 homers, 22 RBI's and 5 SB's more than Rowand per year. Yes Rowand only played 109 games last season because of injury, Hunter only played 98 games in 05 because of injury.

Tragg
08-29-2007, 04:47 PM
Neither Hunter nor Rowand is an elite offensive player. We need an elite offensive player for that kind of dough (or at least someone who can hit leadoff) Tough choice for $12 mill. It may be better to go cheap - Cameron - and pray that one of our youngsters will wake up and take the job in a year or 2.

I think we need to make some trades... our surplus for someone else's surplus.

eriqjaffe
08-29-2007, 04:54 PM
$14 million? They're talking about him getting closer to Ichiro/Vernon Wells money.Yowza! Good thing the FA market is correcting itself.

Neither Hunter nor Rowand is an elite offensive player. We need an elite offensive player for that kind of doughYeah, good luck with that.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/john_donovan/03/29/dbacks.power/t1_byrnes.jpg

kittle42
08-29-2007, 05:26 PM
Yowza! Good thing the FA market is correcting itself.

I can't wait for the first time the lack of the market correcting itself comes out of Kenny Williams' mouth as the reason the Sox didn't make any huge FA splashes!

getonbckthr
08-29-2007, 05:27 PM
Neither Hunter nor Rowand is an elite offensive player. We need an elite offensive player for that kind of dough (or at least someone who can hit leadoff) Tough choice for $12 mill. It may be better to go cheap - Cameron - and pray that one of our youngsters will wake up and take the job in a year or 2.

I think we need to make some trades... our surplus for someone else's surplus.
This is where I think Tampa comes into play. We have alot of young talented arms from making the trades Kenny has. They have a surplus of talented young OF'rs. Tampa's best option might be to deal Crawford. The Sox can very easily come up with an offer of young arms and if Tampa so wishes a young OF'r to replace Crawford. Tampa has a very nice offense with or without Crawford, they need arms. Other possibilities how about Wily Tavares (sp)? Colorado has a bunch of OF'rs as well. If they are willing to throw in money, he may be old but there is Johnny Damon. Can re-joining friends Jermaine Dye and AJ Pierzynski rejuvinate what has been a very good career? Corey Patterson is a free agent. I'm not high on him but its an option.

UserNameBlank
08-29-2007, 07:37 PM
This is where I think Tampa comes into play. We have alot of young talented arms from making the trades Kenny has. They have a surplus of talented young OF'rs. Tampa's best option might be to deal Crawford. The Sox can very easily come up with an offer of young arms and if Tampa so wishes a young OF'r to replace Crawford. Tampa has a very nice offense with or without Crawford, they need arms. Other possibilities how about Wily Tavares (sp)? Colorado has a bunch of OF'rs as well. If they are willing to throw in money, he may be old but there is Johnny Damon. Can re-joining friends Jermaine Dye and AJ Pierzynski rejuvinate what has been a very good career? Corey Patterson is a free agent. I'm not high on him but its an option.
I know there are those who are really down on Taveras but I think that would be a nice move to shore up CF if Colorado wanted to deal him. I don't know what they'd ask, but if McCulloch + one of our out of options relievers couldn't get it done I'd offer Broadway. If that couldn't get it done then we woudln't want him. But yeah, I think Willy would be a great buy if he comes cheap enough. It gives us a legitimate CF, a leadoff hitter with speed, gets Owens out of the picture (yay!) and all at a cheap price.

I don't agree with you on Crawford though. I still think the Sox are going to have to do some rebuilding here, and if they try to sign veteran stopgaps instead of playing younger players they are going to be in even more trouble come 2009. Of course anything can happen, but I'd bet on the Sox failing to make the playoffs next year which would make Gio, Egbert, Carter, and DLS even more valuable to us. And of course TB would probably want three of those guys to deal Crawford, if they'd deal him at all. *Edit: and that's if they don't demand Danks or God forbid Fields. They would want quite a package for Carl. Just look at what they were asking for Baldelli last year and that guy can't stay healthy to save his life.

champagne030
08-29-2007, 08:01 PM
I know there are those who are really down on Taveras but I think that would be a nice move to shore up CF if Colorado wanted to deal him. I don't know what they'd ask, but if McCulloch + one of our out of options relievers couldn't get it done I'd offer Broadway. If that couldn't get it done then we woudln't want him. But yeah, I think Willy would be a great buy if he comes cheap enough. It gives us a legitimate CF, a leadoff hitter with speed, gets Owens out of the picture (yay!) and all at a cheap price.

I don't agree with you on Crawford though. I still think the Sox are going to have to do some rebuilding here, and if they try to sign veteran stopgaps instead of playing younger players they are going to be in even more trouble come 2009. Of course anything can happen, but I'd bet on the Sox failing to make the playoffs next year which would make Gio, Egbert, Carter, and DLS even more valuable to us. And of course TB would probably want three of those guys to deal Crawford, if they'd deal him at all. *Edit: and that's if they don't demand Danks or God forbid Fields. They would want quite a package for Carl. Just look at what they were asking for Baldelli last year and that guy can't stay healthy to save his life.

Broadway, Floyd, McCulloch, Masset. Throw quantity, not quality.

UserNameBlank
08-29-2007, 08:06 PM
Broadway, Floyd, McCulloch, Masset. Throw quantity, not quality.
I would be very, very happy if that would get that deal done. Hell, I'd even throw in Alex Cintron! Now that's a deal!

getonbckthr
08-29-2007, 08:07 PM
I know there are those who are really down on Taveras but I think that would be a nice move to shore up CF if Colorado wanted to deal him. I don't know what they'd ask, but if McCulloch + one of our out of options relievers couldn't get it done I'd offer Broadway. If that couldn't get it done then we woudln't want him. But yeah, I think Willy would be a great buy if he comes cheap enough. It gives us a legitimate CF, a leadoff hitter with speed, gets Owens out of the picture (yay!) and all at a cheap price.

I don't agree with you on Crawford though. I still think the Sox are going to have to do some rebuilding here, and if they try to sign veteran stopgaps instead of playing younger players they are going to be in even more trouble come 2009. Of course anything can happen, but I'd bet on the Sox failing to make the playoffs next year which would make Gio, Egbert, Carter, and DLS even more valuable to us. And of course TB would probably want three of those guys to deal Crawford, if they'd deal him at all. *Edit: and that's if they don't demand Danks or God forbid Fields. They would want quite a package for Carl. Just look at what they were asking for Baldelli last year and that guy can't stay healthy to save his life.
Fields wouldn't be an option for them because they have their offense its pitching they need. I'm sure any team in discussions with Kenny will realize asking for Danks is a waste of time. Gio I think is untouchable in KW's mind. As far as the other prospects I understand their potential however if youy can get a talent like Crawford who is still really young, constantly developing and has a somewhat long term cheap contract you pull the trigger. Out of the 4 you named I would be willing to part with the 3 not named Gio.

soxwon
08-29-2007, 08:10 PM
I could see Rowand getting something like 4/48 from Philadelphia, which is way over his true value IMO. The White Sox could offer 3/30, but I still wouldn't love that deal. If Rowand signs with Philly, there are pluses and minuses. Plus: KW can't pursue Aaron. Minus: The CF market is further thinned out, driving up the price for Torii and "crashin" Druw-Jones-Average (DJA). I'm probably the only person who thinks Corey Patterson could fit in CF here at a low cost, so I'll keep that to myself as much as possible.


whats so wrong with Owens?

getonbckthr
08-29-2007, 08:12 PM
whats so wrong with Owens?
He doesn't crash into walls and he takes good routes to flyballs.

champagne030
08-29-2007, 08:14 PM
He doesn't crash into walls and he takes good routes to flyballs.

And he cannot hit and his arm might be weaker than Pods'.

UserNameBlank
08-29-2007, 08:15 PM
Fields wouldn't be an option for them because they have their offense its pitching they need. I'm sure any team in discussions with Kenny will realize asking for Danks is a waste of time. Gio I think is untouchable in KW's mind. As far as the other prospects I understand their potential however if youy can get a talent like Crawford who is still really young, constantly developing and has a somewhat long term cheap contract you pull the trigger. Out of the 4 you named I would be willing to part with the 3 not named Gio.
I wouldn't deal DLS unless I was getting an ace. Egbert has also flown under the radar up until this year, but IMO is a better bet than any of our more "heralded" pitchers (if you want to call them that). And Carter has some big power potential and is really the only position player we have above Rookie ball with impact potential. We deal these guys and then we have nothing.

Not that I'm against trading prospects because I'm not, but when you get to a point where your ML team sucks it hard and the FA market is full of extremely overpriced veterans and a bunch of stiffs, you do need some depth in your farm. Just think, Carter's value is nothing compared to what it could be one year from now. You get a guy like him putting up those numbers in Kanny and you don't deal him then. You deal him when he's slugging in a pitcher's park in Birmingham; that's when he alone gets you a top talent. And on DLS - I personally think that with an impressive ST, because he absolutely has to get an invite to ML camp, he shoots right up to Double A. Another start there like he had in Kanny this year and all of the sudden he's a top 20 prospect or better in baseball. It would be almost braindead to trade him now knowing that one year from now he could possibly net you a superstar, if you deal him at all.

oeo
08-29-2007, 08:35 PM
He doesn't crash into walls and he takes good routes to flyballs.

He does? :?: He's fast, that's how he covers the ground that he can.

Owens' arm is too weak for center. Not to mention, he still hasn't proven that he can be our leadoff hitter next year.

Tragg
08-29-2007, 09:39 PM
Tampa Bay might take a veteran. They took one from the Astros.

getonbckthr
08-29-2007, 09:43 PM
Tampa Bay might take a veteran. They took one from the Astros.
Garland and a prospect then they bounce JG at the deadline? I doubt KW would do that though.

oeo
08-29-2007, 10:00 PM
Garland and a prospect then they bounce JG at the deadline? I doubt KW would do that though.

I would. Garland has been complete garbage. And the guy has never put together a good, full, consistent season. I know many will disagree, but Garland shouldn't be re-signed, IMO. He's not worth Buehrle money, he's never been as good, and never will be. I hope we sell high on him...if he can start pitching again, that is.

MUsoxfan
08-29-2007, 10:59 PM
He does? :?: He's fast, that's how he covers the ground that he can.

Owens' arm is too weak for center. Not to mention, he still hasn't proven that he can be our leadoff hitter next year.


I'm a fan of Owens. However, I'd prefer him in LF

chisoxmike
08-30-2007, 12:53 AM
I can't wait for the first time the lack of the market correcting itself comes out of Kenny Williams' mouth as the reason the Sox didn't make any huge FA splashes!

What can he do, his hands are tied.:rolleyes:

Yeah, Kenny, my hands are tied too by a low income, and being 23-years old. so that may not let me be able to afford season tickets in 2008...

BadBobbyJenks
08-30-2007, 03:39 AM
This is where I think Tampa comes into play. We have alot of young talented arms from making the trades Kenny has. They have a surplus of talented young OF'rs. Tampa's best option might be to deal Crawford. The Sox can very easily come up with an offer of young arms and if Tampa so wishes a young OF'r to replace Crawford. Tampa has a very nice offense with or without Crawford, they need arms. Other possibilities how about Wily Tavares (sp)? Colorado has a bunch of OF'rs as well. If they are willing to throw in money, he may be old but there is Johnny Damon. Can re-joining friends Jermaine Dye and AJ Pierzynski rejuvinate what has been a very good career? Corey Patterson is a free agent. I'm not high on him but its an option.


Tampa actually has some good young arms in their system, really what they need is a proven pitcher who would be willing to go there and anchor the rotation with kazmir until they are ready

GoSox2K3
08-30-2007, 09:56 AM
I pray to god he resigns with Philly.

I don't get why fans are saying this. If he signs an extension, that just drives up the price further of any other viable free agent centerfielder.

I don't idolize Rowand, but it's amazing that some Sox fans would rather have Jerry Owens playing CF next year than Rowand.

spiffie
08-30-2007, 10:54 AM
I don't get why fans are saying this. If he signs an extension, that just drives up the price further of any other viable free agent centerfielder.

I don't idolize Rowand, but it's amazing that some Sox fans would rather have Jerry Owens playing CF next year than Rowand.
Some Sox fans would rather just play with 8 guys and 2 OF's than have Rowand. If he came here for the league minimum and threw free hot dogs to the fans between innings people would still hate him.

voodoochile
08-30-2007, 11:05 AM
Some Sox fans would rather just play with 8 guys and 2 OF's than have Rowand. If he came here for the league minimum and threw free hot dogs to the fans between innings people would still hate him.

Don't hate Rowand, get frustrated by the fans who are all on his jock 24/7/365.

Minimum rate and free hotdogs to boot? Welcome home ARow...:tongue:

Edit: And if he can bring more pie that would be even better...

alohafri
08-30-2007, 11:19 AM
I don't idolize Rowand, but it's amazing that some Sox fans would rather have Jerry Owens playing CF next year than Rowand.

I'd rather have Torii Hunter, myself.

GoSox2K3
08-30-2007, 12:13 PM
I'd rather have Torii Hunter, myself.

but, that was my point. Even if fans want another CF such as Hunter, taking Rowand off the market now is just going to drive Hunter's price up as teams have fewer CFs to bid for.

For Sox fans who want Torii Hunter, I don't think Rowand bowing out of free agency is going help the Hunter-to-the-Sox scenario any more likely.

UserNameBlank
08-30-2007, 01:22 PM
but, that was my point. Even if fans want another CF such as Hunter, taking Rowand off the market now is just going to drive Hunter's price up as teams have fewer CFs to bid for.

For Sox fans who want Torii Hunter, I don't think Rowand bowing out of free agency is going help the Hunter-to-the-Sox scenario any more likely.
I don't really agree with that though because Rowand isn't the best available CF on the market. Besides, Byrnes already set the price IMO.

I think in the case of Buehrle and Zambrano signing extensions, it will drive up the market on inferior pitchers because as is every offseason you'll see a few teams bidding way too high on the best available pitcher, although the best available pitcher in this market will be a #3 starter type. Then every pitcher who sucks a little more will get a bit less, which will still be high. In the case of Rowand, there would still be Cameron, Hunter, Jones, Patterson, and others available. Not too many teams are going to want to throw around Hunter/Jones type money, so I think if Rowand re-signing affects anyone it will maybe affect Patterson and Cameron, who may get a tad more than they normally would.

Hopefully the Sox stay out of this though and work through trades. This FA market is going to be terrible.

TDog
08-30-2007, 01:24 PM
but, that was my point. Even if fans want another CF such as Hunter, taking Rowand off the market now is just going to drive Hunter's price up as teams have fewer CFs to bid for.

For Sox fans who want Torii Hunter, I don't think Rowand bowing out of free agency is going help the Hunter-to-the-Sox scenario any more likely.

You're absolutely right.

I've watched the evolution of poster's comments about Aaron Rowand. When he played for the Sox, some questioned his defense. Some hoped he would be traded to open the door for Brian Anderson's stardom. When Rowand was traded, even people with the Sox and a few external baseball people were labeling Anderson as the inevitable AL Rookie of the Year. When Anderson didn't provide what Rowand provided, it made some Rowand fans elevate him to unrealistic status. The backlash wasn't limited to the Anderson fans who blamed everyone but Anderson for his failures. The pro- and anti-Rowand people are spread out along that spectrum.

You are objectively right about the market in the off-season. One less centerfielder will reduce the supply and increase the demand. Also objectively, the White Sox would be better off with Rowand in center than with Owens, Erstad, Anderson etc. in center. Whether the Sox would be better off with Torii Hunter in center is irrelevant to whether Sox fans should be happy about Rowand re-signing with the Phillies.

UserNameBlank
08-30-2007, 01:29 PM
You are objectively right about the market in the off-season. One less centerfielder will reduce the supply and increase the demand. Also objectively, the White Sox would be better off with Rowand in center than with Owens, Erstad, Anderson etc. in center. Whether the Sox would be better off with Torii Hunter in center is irrelevant to whether Sox fans should be happy about Rowand re-signing with the Phillies.
If money is no object and is of no consideration, the Sox would be better off with Rowand than with Anderson or Sweeney in CF. However for $10mil or more (yuck!) I'd take the downgrade offensively and use one of our guys, with the $10mil or whatever going to other areas. I definitely don't want Owens out there at all though.

alohafri
08-30-2007, 01:52 PM
but, that was my point. Even if fans want another CF such as Hunter, taking Rowand off the market now is just going to drive Hunter's price up as teams have fewer CFs to bid for.

For Sox fans who want Torii Hunter, I don't think Rowand bowing out of free agency is going help the Hunter-to-the-Sox scenario any more likely.

I understand what you are saying. I was just stating that if we had a choice as to who to sign/attempt to sign, I'd rather it be Hunter over Rowand.

TDog
08-30-2007, 01:58 PM
If money is no object and is of no consideration, the Sox would be better off with Rowand than with Anderson or Sweeney in CF. However for $10mil or more (yuck!) I'd take the downgrade offensively and use one of our guys, with the $10mil or whatever going to other areas. I definitely don't want Owens out there at all though.

But you missed GoSox's point. Taking Rowand off the market is not going to save the Sox money. Taking all the centerfielders off the market could, but taking one off only will work to increase the price the White Sox have to pay for a centerfielder next year. It also could inspire the Sox to make a blockbuster deal that may or may not be well received by the people who don't want Rowand back with the Sox.

If the Sox plan to contend next year, they would do it with Erstad in center before they would do it with Anderson or Sweeney. Owens might even be Plan B. It is more likely the Sox would use Anderson as part of a trade to acquire a starting centerfielder than it would be for Anderson to emerge as the Sox starting centerfielder in April 2008.

It isn't realistic to hope one thing happens so things you would like to see happen fall into place.

UserNameBlank
08-30-2007, 02:17 PM
But you missed GoSox's point. Taking Rowand off the market is not going to save the Sox money. Taking all the centerfielders off the market could, but taking one off only will work to increase the price the White Sox have to pay for a centerfielder next year. It also could inspire the Sox to make a blockbuster deal that may or may not be well received by the people who don't want Rowand back with the Sox.

If the Sox plan to contend next year, they would do it with Erstad in center before they would do it with Anderson or Sweeney. Owens might even be Plan B. It is more likely the Sox would use Anderson as part of a trade to acquire a starting centerfielder than it would be for Anderson to emerge as the Sox starting centerfielder in April 2008.

It isn't realistic to hope one thing happens so things you would like to see happen fall into place.
If the Sox are considering someone better than Rowand I don't think it really matters, because unless Rowand signs for something like $12mil+ it isn't going to raise the price of Hunter or Jones. If the Sox are looking at Rowand/Cameron/Patterson then I could see the price being raised a bit by Rowand signing, but I hope the Sox aren't really looking at those guys. If you're going to pay out the ass for a CF make it Hunter or Jones or nothing at all. League average players don't deserve to be paid like stars, and doing so only hurts your team.

If the Sox start Erstad in CF next year I'll picket outside the Cell. There is no excuse for such poor oganizational behavior. Sweeney and Anderson have arms, can play CF, and aren't going to cost a truckload of money. We're probably not going to contend next year and the only way we do is if KW makes a lot of good trades and/or we get several very early breakout years from young players or get a few career years from the likes of Garland, Contreras, Crede, etc. I think spending so much on a player as hit-or-miss offensively as Rowand would be shooting yourself in the foot. Rowand is going to get paid for one 2007 and then put up a bunch of 2005-06 seasons.

Edit: About the argument on fewer players available making so-and-so more expensive, that doesn't really hold true all the time. If Omar Vizquel signed an extension today would that mean Uribe gets more money if the Sox decline his option? Besides, we have two CF's ready to play in the majors IF they are healthy. Neither look like superstars obviously, but Sweeney and Anderson are still something. It's not like our options are Owens or FA, so despte popular belief around here, we DO NOT need to overpay for a CF. We need better pitching and better offense from our offensive positions. We need Dye, Thome, and Konerko to be healthy and hit like Dye, Thome, and Konerko next year before we can even think about what kind of offensive numbers our CF puts up.

Tragg
08-30-2007, 02:27 PM
If the Sox plan to contend next year, they would do it with Erstad in center before they would do it with Anderson or Sweeney. Owens might even be Plan B. It is more likely the Sox would use Anderson as part of a trade to acquire a starting centerfielder than it would be for Anderson to emerge as the Sox starting centerfielder in April 2008.

It isn't realistic to hope one thing happens so things you would like to see happen fall into place.
That would be ridiculous. Erstad has an OBP of an embarassing .320 this year, has 2 homers and is in decline. That's awful hitting. I know - to Ozzie, he's a .400 hitter. He hits like Ozzie did , so Ozzie keeps putting him in favorable and important positions in the order and he still stinks. That's the problem.
Any of the youngsters are likely to top that. And they also have a chance to improve. Trading Anderson is silly - he's been completely marginalized and the Sox will get nothing for him now.

getonbckthr
08-30-2007, 03:33 PM
I don't get why fans are saying this. If he signs an extension, that just drives up the price further of any other viable free agent centerfielder.

I don't idolize Rowand, but it's amazing that some Sox fans would rather have Jerry Owens playing CF next year than Rowand.
Because Aaron Rowand is an over-rated outfielder because he crashes into walls. I can think of 11.5 million reasons why I want Owens instead of Rowand.

The Immigrant
08-30-2007, 04:03 PM
I can think of 11.5 million reasons why I want Owens instead of Rowand.

I know it's fashionable to dump on Aaron Rowand around these parts, but this is pure insanity.

Jerry Owens sucks. Both Willie Harris and Ross Gload are more serviceable MLB players than Jerry Owens. If Jerry Owens is starting for the 2008 White Sox we are ****ed before the season even starts. Since the $11.5 million is not coming out of my pocket, and since the Sox are making oodles of money even with attendance down this season, I hope they spend that money to upgrade the worst offense in all of baseball. They can start by signing a CF who has a throwing arm and can hit for power.

soxinem1
08-30-2007, 05:00 PM
Because Aaron Rowand is an over-rated outfielder because he crashes into walls. I can think of 11.5 million reasons why I want Owens instead of Rowand.

Owens is a left handed, slightly quicker version of Dave Gallagher. He was the starting CF on the last Sox team with a losing record.

It's Torii, Aaron, or Andruw. My bet, it's one of the first two we go after, and Eric Byrnes is still a possibility.

TDog
08-30-2007, 06:39 PM
That would be ridiculous. Erstad has an OBP of an embarassing .320 this year, has 2 homers and is in decline. That's awful hitting. I know - to Ozzie, he's a .400 hitter. He hits like Ozzie did , so Ozzie keeps putting him in favorable and important positions in the order and he still stinks. That's the problem.
Any of the youngsters are likely to top that. And they also have a chance to improve. Trading Anderson is silly - he's been completely marginalized and the Sox will get nothing for him now.

I didn't post that I wanted Erstad to play center field next year. I didn't even post that it was likely he will be starting I center field next year. I simply believe it is more likely he would be starting there than Anderson or Sweeney. After what the Sox have gone through with their centerfielders since they sent Rowand away, I don't see any way the organization will go with Anderson or Sweeney. Even when the White Sox were resigned to go with Rowand as there starting centerfielder a few years ago, they made a trade (announced at Soxfest I believe) that brought Kenny Lofton in to start in center field to postpone that eventuality. This year they brought in Erstad because they didn't want Mackowiak having to play center anymore. At the time, I knew he would end up starting over Anderson. Instead of announcing Erstad would be starting, they made Anderson work for the job he believed was his.

If the Sox go with a non-veteran centerfielder, it would be Owens, but I don't see that happening.

As for marginalizing Anderson, Anderson did far more to diminish his trade value than his organization did. His trade value, sadly, will never be any higher. Regardless, people with no trade value get traded all the time.

TDog
08-30-2007, 06:45 PM
Owens is a left handed, slightly quicker version of Dave Gallagher. He was the starting CF on the last Sox team with a losing record.

It's Torii, Aaron, or Andruw. My bet, it's one of the first two we go after, and Eric Byrnes is still a possibility.


Dave Gallagher was a .300 hitter and the inventor of the Stride Tutor, which he patented. I don't know where he is now, but I thought he was a great guy. I have no idea where he is now, but in his playing days he would be an improvement over anything the Sox have been running out in left this year.

socko82
08-30-2007, 06:56 PM
It's Torii, Aaron, or Andruw. My bet, it's one of the first two we go after, and Eric Byrnes is still a possibility.

Byrnes signed a 3 year/$30 million dollar extension with AZ a couple weeks ago.

oeo
08-30-2007, 07:17 PM
I don't really agree with that though because Rowand isn't the best available CF on the market. Besides, Byrnes already set the price IMO.

It doesn't matter if he's the best. Look, going into Spring Training, the outfield Free Agent market looked pretty deep...so the price may have gone down. Now that Wells, Ichiro, Byrnes, Dye are off the market, it's going to take a lot more to get a Rowand, Hunter, or Jones because the supply is low. Those guys' pricetags have already gone up, and not just because of the seasons they've had, but because they're in high demand.

The more outfielders that go off the market, the higher it's going to cost to get one during the offseason. No one should be cheering on Rowand being re-signed before the end of the season, unless you really think Owens is something special, because I doubt we'll go as far as some teams will to get Torii Hunter or Andruw Jones.

If the Sox are considering someone better than Rowand I don't think it really matters, because unless Rowand signs for something like $12mil+ it isn't going to raise the price of Hunter or Jones. If the Sox are looking at Rowand/Cameron/Patterson then I could see the price being raised a bit by Rowand signing, but I hope the Sox aren't really looking at those guys. If you're going to pay out the ass for a CF make it Hunter or Jones or nothing at all. League average players don't deserve to be paid like stars, and doing so only hurts your team.

It's supply and demand. It has nothing to do with the outfielder that goes off the market, but only that an outfielder did go off the market. If Rowand goes off, there will be a high demand for an even lower supply = teams more willing to pay up the ass.

And why is Hunter in a different class than Rowand? Way to go overrating your good buddy...he's not that good.

soxinem1
08-30-2007, 07:29 PM
Dave Gallagher was a .300 hitter and the inventor of the Stride Tutor, which he patented. I don't know where he is now, but I thought he was a great guy. I have no idea where he is now, but in his playing days he would be an improvement over anything the Sox have been running out in left this year.

He was a .300 hitter in one 2/3 of a season as a semi-regular in 1988. He hit about .260 with no speed, extra base power, and little range in 1989, the year of the last-place White Sox. Sure, he was a nice guy, and a nice bench player, but a regular CF, he was not.

BTW, the sales of the 'Stride Tutor' hit bottom by mid-1989, when it's inventor wasn't hitting himself.

Byrnes signed a 3 year/$30 million dollar extension with AZ a couple weeks ago.

That is old news. It makes him all the more tradeable. Don't think there will not be inquiries about him, especially when Rowand and Hunter will exceed what he got.

kittle42
08-30-2007, 08:23 PM
I Jerry Owens sucks. Both Willie Harris and Ross Gload are more serviceable MLB players than Jerry Owens. If Jerry Owens is starting for the 2008 White Sox we are ****ed before the season even starts.

Yes, yes, and yes!

I think people here like Owens because he steals bases and some people thinks you just need a guy who steals bases to hit leadoff to win a title due to 2005 and Podsednik.

UserNameBlank
08-30-2007, 09:25 PM
It doesn't matter if he's the best. Look, going into Spring Training, the outfield Free Agent market looked pretty deep...so the price may have gone down. Now that Wells, Ichiro, Byrnes, Dye are off the market, it's going to take a lot more to get a Rowand, Hunter, or Jones because the supply is low. Those guys' pricetags have already gone up, and not just because of the seasons they've had, but because they're in high demand.

The more outfielders that go off the market, the higher it's going to cost to get one during the offseason. No one should be cheering on Rowand being re-signed before the end of the season, unless you really think Owens is something special, because I doubt we'll go as far as some teams will to get Torii Hunter or Andruw Jones.

It's supply and demand. It has nothing to do with the outfielder that goes off the market, but only that an outfielder did go off the market. If Rowand goes off, there will be a high demand for an even lower supply = teams more willing to pay up the ass.

There are 30 teams in baseball, and the teams re-signing their CF are generally going to be off the market for CF's. This "supply and demand" **** that everyone is speaking of doesn't make a whole lot of sense because it's not like there are 100 teams in need of a CF yet only a handful available. Teams have their own CF's and will weigh the estimated cost and production of a player versus their in house options and determine whether or not CF is an area to spend big bucks. If a team doesn't have a CF in their organization that they feel confident in they can explore the trade market, but they don't have to go the FA route at all. Only if they feel that it is the best option.

The following teams will not need CF's:
Toronto (Wells, Rios), NYY (Damon, Cabrera), Boston (Ellsbury, Crisp), TB (Upton, Baldelli), Sox* (Anderson, Sweeney), Detroit (Granderson, Maybin), Cleveland (Sizemore, Michaels), KC (DeJesus), LAA (Figgins, GM Jr), Seattle (Ichiro, Adam Jones), Oakland (Swisher), Philly (Victorino, Bourne), NYM (Beltran), Nats (Church, Kearns is now their CF), Cubs (Pie), MIL* (Corey Hart, Bill Hall), Pittsburgh (McLouth, Duffy), Cards (Edmonds), Reds (Hamilton, Bruce, Griffey), Astros (Pence), Dodgers (Pierre), Rockies (Tavares), AZ (Young, Upton, Byrnes), SF (Roberts, Winn)

Baltimore, Minnesota, Texas, Florida, Atlanta, and the Padres will need a CF. The Sox will probably look to upgrade, and Milwaukee may look to get a CF and drop the Mench/Jenkins platoon while shifting Hall to a corner spot. So that's 7 teams that'll probably be the most active. The top FA's for CF will be Cameron, Lofton, Hunter, Patterson, Jones, and Rowand, so that's six players. And you know for sure that Florida isn't going to spend any money, so that makes 6 teams for the top 6 players on the market. And how many of those teams will look to the FA market over the trade market? And how many of those teams will look to do something else, like bring up a prospect to play CF and spend money on or trade for what they would see as a more productive corner OF?

If Rowand re-signs with Philly the most significant thing that move will do is put PHI in a better position to deal by making one of Bourne/Victorino expendable.


And why is Hunter in a different class than Rowand? Way to go overrating your good buddy...he's not that good.
If you honestly believe that Rowand is anywhere near Torii you're crazy. 6 consecutive GG and maybe a 7th this year, a minimum of 23 HR's every year since 2001 except for 2005 when he was injured and missed a ton of time, he usually hits 30+ 2B's, and he regularly drives in 90+ runs per season on a team not known for its offense.

Meanwhile, Rowand = a young Erstad, wildly inconsistent year to year. Look at the fluctuations between 2004 and now. With Hunter you know what you're paying for and you know what you're getting. There is a reason Torii is going to get a lot more on the market, and it's because he's actually worth a lot more than Aaron is.

Ron Mexico
08-31-2007, 01:15 AM
Yes, yes, and yes!

I think people here like Owens because he steals bases and some people thinks you just need a guy who steals bases to hit leadoff to win a title due to 2005 and Podsednik.


What exactly did Willie Harris accomplish in a White Sox uniform with exception of scoring the winning run to win in '05 as a pinch runner which proves he is a better player than Jerry Owens. Willie Harris was fast, but I don't recall him being an exceptional base stealer and the Sox organization supplanted his position with a player from Japan whom Kenny Williams only saw on video tape.

Domeshot17
08-31-2007, 03:15 AM
Jerry Owens is a mediocre hitter. I think the guy should have some run where he hits over .270 before we crown his ass. I mean, how does one have a double digit hit streak and only hit like .250 during it? 1/4 every night. Owens doesn't hit, and he doesn't walk. If you want him on the bench as your 4th OF/Defensive sub/pinch runner, then you have to ship out pablo. An AL team doesnt have room for 2 speed guys with ZERO pop off the bench playing the same position.

roadrunner
08-31-2007, 03:42 AM
In addition to the crappy trade, it will be interesting to see how much KW $$ lost by letting Rowand leave the organization. That amount will be the difference between what Rowand would have been willing to sign an extension for and what he is going to get on the open market this year.

KW really ****ed up the outfield. Instead of Rowand and Young roaming the outfield together over the next few years at an extremely reasonable price, we have squat. He totally ****ed up the budget allocation. The best we can hope for now is to overpay for a past their prime veteran or two. (I include any of the potential free agents in that category - including Dye)

rowand33
08-31-2007, 10:29 AM
Jerry Owens is a mediocre hitter. I think the guy should have some run where he hits over .270 before we crown his ass. I mean, how does one have a double digit hit streak and only hit like .250 during it? 1/4 every night. Owens doesn't hit, and he doesn't walk. If you want him on the bench as your 4th OF/Defensive sub/pinch runner, then you have to ship out pablo. An AL team doesnt have room for 2 speed guys with ZERO pop off the bench playing the same position.

Amen!

soxinem1
08-31-2007, 11:06 AM
In addition to the crappy trade, it will be interesting to see how much KW $$ lost by letting Rowand leave the organization. That amount will be the difference between what Rowand would have been willing to sign an extension for and what he is going to get on the open market this year.

KW really ****ed up the outfield. Instead of Rowand and Young roaming the outfield together over the next few years at an extremely reasonable price, we have squat. He totally ****ed up the budget allocation. The best we can hope for now is to overpay for a past their prime veteran or two. (I include any of the potential free agents in that category - including Dye)

I agree with this assessment. DH is one of the easiest positions to fill, and we are paying dearly for it. KW wanted to beef up the offense, and on paper, we needed to. Thome is basically a left handed Frank Thomas with more K's.

The 2005 White Sox, despite popular belief, was neither a strong offensive team nor a fast one. You had the offense geared up around one player setting the tone.

When KW traded Rowand, I honestly think he felt that one of the minor leaguers would step in and take his place adequately. The team was loaded with hitting, so it was okay to break in a rookie and put up with the growing pains, especially from a ninth place hitter.

I also think he felt he could easilly re-aquire him at a later date if this plan did not work out.

Obviously, since they gave none of the minor leaguers a real shot to take the position, this idea looks like it blew up.

I really think Guillen is the one to point the finger at for the most part. During the first half of 2006, the White Sox led the universe in runs scored, but he HAD to have some offense out of CF, so he trotted Mackowiak out there. For all his 'speed and defense first' and 'doing the little things' talk, he let the press dicate to him how to run his team.

Every team should realize, even teams who buy whatever they need like NYY and BOS, that you will not have a Silver Slugger at every position, and the White Sox fell into this trap too.

Bottom line is this. The White Sox had one of the most productive OF's in MLB for years in this decade, now it is one of the lowest. Dye is adequate in RF, LF can be afforded a sub-par defensive player if he produces, and CF should be your best defender and have the most tools. Right now, I'd have to say that if Rowand re-ups with PHI, the Sox chances of landing Hunter, Jones, or any of the top CF's almost disappear.

Sure, they can get a guy like Mike Cameron to come back, but who needs a 34 year old CF who whiffs like Thome and has had a lot of problems with RHP?

We also fail to note that KW is not a free-agent type of guy. His forte is trades, that is his philosphy on how to build a team. He has not made the foray into the market since he has been GM, and I really do not see him doing it now, at least not a major one.

Rowand is going to get a minimum 4 year deal worth close to $50 million. You can thank the LAA for giving Gary Matthews, Jr. his $$$$ for that. He will not return here for some 'Reunion Tour' contract of 3 years/$27 million that KW would offer. No way. He doesn't love Chicago that much.

Therefore, I think we are all reading this off-season wrong. Our new OF will be put together via trades, not major FA signings.

I have a feeling that is how we get our 2008 OF put together. Contreras and Garland will both be gone in accomplishing that.

KW should be most concerned with getting a lead-off man who can produce, whether he is a SS, LF, CF, 2B or whatever.

oeo
08-31-2007, 11:14 AM
KW really ****ed up the outfield. Instead of Rowand and Young roaming the outfield together over the next few years at an extremely reasonable price, we have squat. He totally ****ed up the budget allocation. The best we can hope for now is to overpay for a past their prime veteran or two. (I include any of the potential free agents in that category - including Dye)

This is hindsight at its best. When Rowand was traded, Brian Anderson was supposed to be better than him. He didn't pan out, unfortunately, and now you're saying he '****ed up the outfield.'

Chris Young netted us Javy Vazquez, and I'm definitely not complaining. Vazquez has an ERA under 3 in his last 10 starts or something along those lines. Considering the way our starting staff has imploded, I'd say the starting pitcher who is pitching like an ace is much more valuable than an outfielder that hits homeruns, but can't hit for average or get on base.

Foulke You
09-04-2007, 03:09 PM
He was a .300 hitter in one 2/3 of a season as a semi-regular in 1988. He hit about .260 with no speed, extra base power, and little range in 1989, the year of the last-place White Sox. Sure, he was a nice guy, and a nice bench player, but a regular CF, he was not.
That is an excellent comparison for Jerry Owens. A faster version of Gallagher. I don't think he'll ever be more than what he is now. A guy who would make a better 4th outfielder and pinch runner than an everyday starter. Owens has some good qualities that make him valuable on the roster but he seems to be a low ceiling type of player. If he is going to be an everyday player for us, I hope it is in the 9 hole and not the leadoff spot.

Zisk77
09-04-2007, 03:16 PM
What exactly did Willie Harris accomplish in a White Sox uniform with exception of scoring the winning run to win in '05 as a pinch runner which proves he is a better player than Jerry Owens. Willie Harris was fast, but I don't recall him being an exceptional base stealer and the Sox organization supplanted his position with a player from Japan whom Kenny Williams only saw on video tape.


Actually he was a pinch hitter for freddie garcia and lined a single to left off of "lights out" Lidge. Pods sac. him to 2nd base. He took 3b on Crazy Carl's 4-3 and scored the only run on the MVP's single to center. The rest is History.:)

Lip Man 1
09-04-2007, 03:52 PM
That was the thing about Willie...had talent...could never get it together.

He was a lead off guy with a low batting average who struck out a ton, didn't walk and couldn't bunt to save his life. He had a world of speed but never learned the trick of stealing bases.

He was a bench guy at best. I'm glad he's having a fine season in Atlanta...I don't think he'll do it again next year. (Think Cotts or Politte)

Lip

getonbckthr
09-04-2007, 04:10 PM
At one point wasn't Harris the top prospect for the Orioles?

D. TODD
09-05-2007, 03:07 PM
At one point wasn't Harris the top prospect for the Orioles? He has been stellar for Atlanta this year. A big surprise all around for the Bravos!

Palehose13
09-05-2007, 08:51 PM
I thoguht that two glaring holes at the end of last year was SS and CF. Actually, I think I wrote that out of LF, CF, and SS, two of the three needed offensive upgrades without becoming defensive liabilities. I would love to have Torii Hunter, but if Rowand can be had cheaper* to where KW can improve SS I would do that.

I just don't think that the Sox can have so many glaring holes offensively (let's add 2B to that now too) and I would rather spend money filling more holes than using a big chunk of salary for one guy.



*let's see how bad he wants to come back to Chicago.

Frater Perdurabo
09-06-2007, 07:17 AM
I thoguht that two glaring holes at the end of last year was SS and CF. Actually, I think I wrote that out of LF, CF, and SS, two of the three needed offensive upgrades without becoming defensive liabilities. I would love to have Torii Hunter, but if Rowand can be had cheaper* to where KW can improve SS I would do that.

I just don't think that the Sox can have so many glaring holes offensively (let's add 2B to that now too) and I would rather spend money filling more holes than using a big chunk of salary for one guy.

Well look who's back! :)

The rumored Contreras for Furcal swap really helps solidify things for 2008. I think Richar is going to be the answer at 2B.

The Immigrant
09-06-2007, 08:05 AM
The rumored Contreras for Furcal swap really helps solidify things for 2008. I think Richar is going to be the answer at 2B.

That rumor was pulled from thin air by the guy who runs mlbtraderumors.com, based on his perception of the Dodgers' desperate need for pitching just after the trade deadline and the fact that Hu *should* be ready to take over SS for the Dodgers. I don't see the Dodgers taking on Jose's salary this offseason, and I don't think he has enough starts left to prove that he's worth the price. Also, given that Furcal is only signed through 2008, I don't see the Dodgers rushing to move him. I don't know why any GM would.

I do, however, expect KW to make a play in the trade market for someone like Renteria, with either Garland or Vazquez being moved.