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View Full Version : Red sox owner "We really are a SMALL market team"


Fenway
08-28-2007, 08:42 AM
My monitor is covered with coffee after reading that :o:

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=1019532 (http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=1019532)

“In 2009 their revenues will move to a higher level when they occupy the next Yankee Stadium,” he wrote. “And we are close to being maxed out in the venerable and magical Fenway Park (http://news.bostonherald.com/search/?searchSite=true&keyword=Fenway+Park&mode=all&sorting=pubdate) [map (http://news.bostonherald.com/maps/?data=fenwayPark)]. So we will be presented with great challenges.
“It will be difficult,” he later added. “We are often called a large market team because our fans provide us with great revenues. But the fact is that we operate the 16th largest television territory as measured by the number of households. The Red Sox are ‘the little engine that could.’ It is because we have such devoted fans who live, breathe, eat and sleep baseball. They are the reason we have been able to build exciting teams. And our players as a group and individually have been a galvanizing force in New England and among Red Sox fans across America . . . around the world.”


Huh???? 16th TV market in baseball?????

You know something from pure numbers he is right

Remember the infamous MLB blackout map?
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/tools/med/2006/06/ipt/1150742098.jpg (http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/tools/med/2006/06/ipt/1150742098.jpg)

Red Sox get 5 1/2 states ( Southwestern CT goes to NYC ) and NESN is restricted to that.

Even Tampa Bay is a "bigger market" as they are beamed all over Florida ( except South Florida )

Boston has dropped to the 7th largest TV market ( down from 5 ) but pretty much a tie with San Francisco and Dallas
http://www.nielsenmedia.com/nc/portal/site/Public/menuitem.3437240b94cacebc3a81e810d8a062a0/?vgnextoid=130547f8b5264010VgnVCM100000880a260aRCR D (http://www.nielsenmedia.com/nc/portal/site/Public/menuitem.3437240b94cacebc3a81e810d8a062a0/?vgnextoid=130547f8b5264010VgnVCM100000880a260aRCR D)#

5 San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, CA 2,383,570
6 Dallas-Ft. Worth, TX 2,378,660
7 Boston, MA (Manchester, NH)2,372,030

but you add Providence and Hartford the Red Sox market is huge
51 Providence, RI-New Bedford, MA 633,950
28 Hartford & New Haven, CT 1,014,630

But just because a team is available doesn't mean anybody is watching...you think anybody in Mobile, Alabama watches the Devil Rays?????

voodoochile
08-28-2007, 08:54 AM
Another MLB owner crying poor - what a shock...:rolleyes:

Fenway
08-28-2007, 08:58 AM
Another MLB owner crying poor - what a shock...:rolleyes:

If Bud allows what they want to do next, poor they won't be.

They want to do what the Celtics did a few years ago...put 49% of the club on the New York Stock Exchange. Every lunatic in New England will buy shares at whatever the price.

Oblong
08-28-2007, 09:00 AM
Another MLB owner crying poor - what a shock...:rolleyes:

Here's a great article on the Marlins stadium issue that offers an example of this.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/other-than-a-rousing-game-of-limbo/

The owners are raking in the money. Don't let them fool you. There is a reason that so few ever release their figures. It'd be embarassing for them.

DoItForDanPasqua
08-28-2007, 09:33 AM
I bet that Toronto, Baltimore and Tampa are passing the hat to help the poor, underprivileged Red Sox.

SoxFan78
08-28-2007, 09:44 AM
After taking the tour of Fenway Park when the Sox were playing there in late July, they will be getting no sympathy from me.

The prices for the new seats they have installed are outrageous! I dont remember the exacts but for the Budweiser seats were 440 for a table, and i think the new roof seats were 95 each for padded, 85 for non padded. On the roof!!

Dan Mega
08-28-2007, 10:14 AM
A Yankees wanna-be team calls themselves small market? Now I've seen it all.

Fenway
08-28-2007, 10:16 AM
After taking the tour of Fenway Park when the Sox were playing there in late July, they will be getting no sympathy from me.

The prices for the new seats they have installed are outrageous! I dont remember the exacts but for the Budweiser seats were 440 for a table, and i think the new roof seats were 95 each for padded, 85 for non padded. On the roof!!

The Budweiser seats are about 900 feet from home plate as well ( no ball has ever landed on that part of the roof ) but they do give you a $25 food voucher with the $110 ticket
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/bos/images/ballpark/y2005/deck_200x184a.gif

As you can see the roof seats are WAY up there...... as are the concession prices

Meanwhile the grandstand seats are impossible to sit in :angry:

johnr1note
08-28-2007, 10:18 AM
This is really ridiculous. I'd have to scrounge to find the article, but there was study done on the economics of baseball and competition among the different teams and population centers with and without teams etc. IIRC, the article was written in response to the call for retraction, and the concept of potential baseball expansion.

Do you know what the conclusion of expert economists as to where the most lucrative place to plant an expansion team or to relocate an existing team?

Either place a third team in the NY metro area, or place a second team in Boston. Strictly from an economic analysis, which included broadcast revenue, these were the best spots for new teams.

The old adage "Everything old is new again" comes to mind.

Fenway
08-28-2007, 10:33 AM
Either place a third team in the NY metro area, or place a second team in Boston. Strictly from an economic analysis, which included broadcast revenue, these were the best spots for new teams.

The old adage "Everything old is new again" comes to mind.

I have no doubt the Boston area could support a second team....and if this talk show host gets lucky in Federal Court....it might happen

He bought the old Worcester franchise and has a letter from the National League owners saying Worcester can be admitted back to the NL at any time

Granted it was written in 1882 but in a courtroom "any time" could cause Bud a big headache

To the legal minds here how would a court look at a document from 125 years ago?

TDog
08-28-2007, 11:19 AM
I have no doubt the Boston area could support a second team....

Boston could support a second team, and New York could support a third team. The area around Tampa Bay could support a single team. Chicago can support two teams when things are going right for the White Sox.

Populations and television markets don't support teams. Fans support teams.

HerzogVon
08-28-2007, 12:08 PM
Boston could support a second team, and New York could support a third team. The area around Tampa Bay could support a single team. Chicago can support two teams when things are going right for the White Sox.

Populations and television markets don't support teams. Fans support teams.

Maybe not, but the national media - not to mention Hollywood - have done more than their part in keeping the Carmine in the public eye; rather like a festering stye. Not just talking about the Eastern Seaboard Publicity Network, either. Ever take a gander at ( what passes for ) AOL sports? New Yawk, Bawston, Bawston, New Yawk ~ till you want to puke!!

Speaking of which - and I realize this is straying a bit - just finished watching the movie "Departed" on cable. So, is there really a fen around Fenway? Just curious...

Ralph Vaughan-Williams

ode to veeck
08-28-2007, 12:27 PM
Boston has dropped to the 7th largest TV market ( down from 5 ) but pretty much a tie with San Francisco and Dallas
http://www.nielsenmedia.com/nc/portal/site/Public/menuitem.3437240b94cacebc3a81e810d8a062a0/?vgnextoid=130547f8b5264010VgnVCM100000880a260aRCR D (http://www.nielsenmedia.com/nc/portal/site/Public/menuitem.3437240b94cacebc3a81e810d8a062a0/?vgnextoid=130547f8b5264010VgnVCM100000880a260aRCR D)#

5 San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, CA 2,383,570
6 Dallas-Ft. Worth, TX 2,378,660
7 Boston, MA (Manchester, NH)2,372,030



Huh? After LA and NY which are like 20 and 15 mil souls each, Balt/DC, Chicago, and SF Bay area are next together in 7-8 mil each, depending on where you cut the boundary (e.g, wine country, monterey/SCruz often left out of SF Bay area). I couldn't find any list from your link to neilsen

Fenway
08-28-2007, 01:00 PM
Huh? After LA and NY which are like 20 and 15 mil souls each, Balt/DC, Chicago, and SF Bay area are next together in 7-8 mil each, depending on where you cut the boundary (e.g, wine country, monterey/SCruz often left out of SF Bay area). I couldn't find any list from your link to neilsen

These numbers are not population, but HOUSEHOLDS with tv's.

Chicago for example is third with 3,455,020 homes

better list in html

http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/markettrack/US_HH_by_DMA.asp

StillMissOzzie
08-28-2007, 02:04 PM
I have no doubt the Boston area could support a second team....and if this talk show host gets lucky in Federal Court....it might happen

He bought the old Worcester franchise and has a letter from the National League owners saying Worcester can be admitted back to the NL at any time

Granted it was written in 1882 but in a courtroom "any time" could cause Bud a big headache

To the legal minds here how would a court look at a document from 125 years ago?
:tool
"This is obviously a forgery, and a lame effort it is, I might add."

Boston could support a second team, and New York could support a third team. The area around Tampa Bay could support a single team. Chicago can support two teams when things are going right for the White Sox.

Populations and television markets don't support teams. Fans support teams.

I have never understood this argument. Daver has proposed a 3rd franchise for the NY area, but has yet to explain why this would fly. Maybe one of you two would like to take a shot: Why would fans in the NY or Boston area flee the teams they've followed all their life, with all their storied history, to jump on the bandwagon of some upstart expansion team?
Why would a Yankee fan abandon their team and their 26 (or whatever) World Series titles for some upstart that probably won't have a chance for the first 5-10 years or so? Because it would be a NL rival to the hated Mets? :rolleyes:
Why would a Boston fan abandon their team, historic Fenway Park, the rivalry with the Yankees, for some upstart with a squeaky clean new park, no history, tradition, or chance of competing in the forseeable future? :rolleyes:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, look at what the Marlins did, I hear THAT, but do you think it would happen again? If fans support teams, why would these fans dump the team they have grown up to love and follow? For a new ballpark? For readily available tickets? I just don't see it.

SMO
:gulp:

PS *** is up with a $16 lobster roll at Fenway? Do they sell more than 2 of these per year???

Steelrod
08-28-2007, 02:17 PM
Maybe not, but the national media - not to mention Hollywood - have done more than their part in keeping the Carmine in the public eye; rather like a festering stye. Not just talking about the Eastern Seaboard Publicity Network, either. Ever take a gander at ( what passes for ) AOL sports? New Yawk, Bawston, Bawston, New Yawk ~ till you want to puke!!

Speaking of which - and I realize this is straying a bit - just finished watching the movie "Departed" on cable. So, is there really a fen around Fenway? Just curious...

Ralph Vaughan-Williams
Yes, about two blocks away.

StillMissOzzie
08-28-2007, 02:19 PM
Here's a great article on the Marlins stadium issue that offers an example of this.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/other-than-a-rousing-game-of-limbo/

The owners are raking in the money. Don't let them fool you. There is a reason that so few ever release their figures. It'd be embarassing for them.

That's a GREAT article you linked to, Oblong! Anyone who's reading this thread, take 5 more minutes of your time to read this article.

SMO
:gulp:

Fenway
08-28-2007, 02:21 PM
Yes, about two blocks away.

That is where the name of the park came from....

It is a beautiful park


http://p.vtourist.com/1430102-the_sun_setting_on_the_Fens-Boston.jpg

ode to veeck
08-28-2007, 03:43 PM
I have never understood this argument. Daver has proposed a 3rd franchise for the NY area, but has yet to explain why this would fly. Maybe one of you two would like to take a shot: Why would fans in the NY or Boston area flee the teams they've followed all their life, with all their storied history, to jump on the bandwagon of some upstart expansion team?


They did it for the horrible Mets, even after the mortal wounds of both Dodgers and Giants moving the left coast, albeit, the Mets popularity soared when the stopped being the doormat of the league (1st 8 years) and got the series twice '69-'73. It also helped that the Yankees faded in the same timeframe as the Orioles and A's became the preeminant AL franchises until the late 70s.

LITTLE NELL
08-28-2007, 04:19 PM
Boston could support a second team, and New York could support a third team. The area around Tampa Bay could support a single team. Chicago can support two teams when things are going right for the White Sox.

Populations and television markets don't support teams. Fans support teams.
Boston had two teams, the Braves moved to Milwaukee in 1952 then to Atlanta in 1966.

TDog
08-28-2007, 04:22 PM
I have never understood this argument. ...

I am agreeing with you. Suggesting that the Tampa Bay area can support a major league team should have indicated as much. I also referenced the fact that there are people who don't want Chicago to support two major league teams.

As for the Mets, the 1962 expansion team capitalized on fans whose National League teams had deserted them. There was a void because those fans didn't flock to support the Yankees. The circumstances behind the 1962 expansion into New York were unique. The Red Sox have now captured the Boston baseball market with the Braves serving as a more minor footnote to history than the Philadelphia A's. Ask Phillies fans about the frustration of The City of Brotherly Love, and you'll hear about Phillies incompetence going back to the 19th century. You won't hear about the Connie Mack championships.

Foultips
08-28-2007, 06:43 PM
The Budweiser seats are about 900 feet from home plate as well ( no ball has ever landed on that part of the roof ) but they do give you a $25 food voucher with the $110 ticket
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/bos/images/ballpark/y2005/deck_200x184a.gif

As you can see the roof seats are WAY up there...... as are the concession prices

Meanwhile the grandstand seats are impossible to sit in :angry:

Those RF seats look like they are a mile away. $110? Are Boston fans that dumb?

LongLiveFisk
08-28-2007, 07:57 PM
A small market team? I don't know whether to laugh or puke.

soxtalker
08-28-2007, 08:00 PM
:tool
...
I have never understood this argument. Daver has proposed a 3rd franchise for the NY area, but has yet to explain why this would fly. Maybe one of you two would like to take a shot: Why would fans in the NY or Boston area flee the teams they've followed all their life, with all their storied history, to jump on the bandwagon of some upstart expansion team?
...

I'm guessing that there won't be many NL fans left in Boston, so you might be right. (When I was in school there back in the 70's, there were still some former Brave fans -- but not a lot.) But travel to the city is more difficult these days, and it might help if the NL franchise were located in (what is now) the far western suburbs. Same argument for NY. If a team were located in NJ, say, it might draw fans initially simply because travel to Queens or the Bronx takes too much time.

PKalltheway
08-28-2007, 08:20 PM
I have never understood this argument. Daver has proposed a 3rd franchise for the NY area, but has yet to explain why this would fly. Maybe one of you two would like to take a shot: Why would fans in the NY or Boston area flee the teams they've followed all their life, with all their storied history, to jump on the bandwagon of some upstart expansion team?
Why would a Yankee fan abandon their team and their 26 (or whatever) World Series titles for some upstart that probably won't have a chance for the first 5-10 years or so? Because it would be a NL rival to the hated Mets? :rolleyes:
Why would a Boston fan abandon their team, historic Fenway Park, the rivalry with the Yankees, for some upstart with a squeaky clean new park, no history, tradition, or chance of competing in the forseeable future? :rolleyes:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, look at what the Marlins did, I hear THAT, but do you think it would happen again? If fans support teams, why would these fans dump the team they have grown up to love and follow? For a new ballpark? For readily available tickets? I just don't see it.
Maybe they want to try to reach out to a new generation of fans? A lot people think a 3rd New York team, or a 2nd Boston team can work because it's happened before, and there's enough people living there, and enough money to where it could possibly work out.:dunno: I don't know, that's my only explanation. I do agree with you though.:thumbsup:

That's a GREAT article you linked to, Oblong! Anyone who's reading this thread, take 5 more minutes of your time to read this article.

SMO
:gulp:

That was a great article. That writer really went to town on the Marlins!

Fenway
08-29-2007, 09:56 AM
Daver is 100% correct. A third New York team playing in The Meadowlands would do very well.

Fans in NY or Boston would embrace a new team as it has been proven in hockey.

Islander and Devils fans most certainly were fans of the Rangers but could not get tickets. Same happened in Boston with the Whalers. In fact the Whalers became so popular the Bruins evicted them from the Garden and they were forced to move to Springfield and then Hartford.

A second team in Boston should be located in Metro-West ( Framingham ) near the outer beltway.

PatK
08-29-2007, 10:07 AM
Well since Boston is such a small market, can we please do away with 90% of ESPN being about them?

pmck003
08-29-2007, 02:10 PM
If Boston is small market, I suppose that would make the Royals negative market?