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voodoochile
08-27-2007, 10:10 AM
Can't say I disagree with most of what he says. So many things went wrong that indeed weirdness has prevailed...

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070826morrisseysox,1,5327254.column?coll=cs-home-headlines

SBSoxFan
08-27-2007, 11:13 AM
Can't say I disagree with most of what he says. So many things went wrong that indeed weirdness has prevailed...

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070826morrisseysox,1,5327254.column?coll=cs-home-headlines


I'm not so sure he really said anything. I agree though, weirdness has prevailed, and that things may be different (better?) if the same roster played next year. I think the Sox, as an organization, need to learn how to win and to sustain it. There actually aren't a lot of good models out there, besides those teams with deep pockets, for such sustained success. The types of teams that compete in a given year nearly make the whole thing seem chaotic. Take, for example, the Diamondbacks and Mariners this year. Certainly one single factor, like a large payroll, is not a defining factor.

So, was 2005 a fluke for the Sox or was 2007 a perfect storm of bad events? How do you tell the difference? I'm glad I don't have to try to figure it out; it's too hard! I just hope they'll be competitive again soon. But either way, I'll be there to cheer for the Sox.

rdivaldi
08-27-2007, 11:37 AM
So, was 2005 a fluke for the Sox or was 2007 a perfect storm of bad events? How do you tell the difference? I'm glad I don't have to try to figure it out; it's too hard! I just hope they'll be competitive again soon. But either way, I'll be there to cheer for the Sox.

Look at 90 wins in 2006 and I think you'll get your answer...

HerzogVon
08-27-2007, 11:44 AM
Can't say I disagree with most of what he says. So many things went wrong that indeed weirdness has prevailed...

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070826morrisseysox,1,5327254.column?coll=cs-home-headlines

It has little to do with the factual nature of what he writes. Rather, it's the way in which he and his compatriots seem to revel in it; like a preacher oh so happy in the straying of a wayward sheep he never nuch liked in the first place. ( This is not just about Morrissey; it applies to most of the writers in this town, at both rags. ) [ Mental image of sheep stumbling over a cliff. ]

When the Cubbies fall on hard times, the media - print and electronic alike - are quick to offer the tea and sympathy of a doting aunt. When it happens to us, the glee is almost palpable. ( Schadenfreude, indeed! ) Guess our biggest sin was to win it all before their darlings ever got a sniff. HAH!!!

The only solace I can find in this entire debacle is that it may - should! - hasten the departure of "Kenny the Genius". If Ozzie goes with him, so be it. It's all part of the same enema.

rdivaldi
08-27-2007, 11:52 AM
The only solace I can find in this entire debacle is that it may - should! - hasten the departure of "Kenny the Genius". If Ozzie goes with him, so be it. It's all part of the same enema.


Yes, let's get rid of anyone even partially responsible for us ever winning ASAP!

voodoochile
08-27-2007, 11:55 AM
It has little to do with the factual nature of what he writes. Rather, it's the way in which he and his compatriots seem to revel in it; like a preacher oh so happy in the straying of a wayward sheep he never nuch liked in the first place. ( This is not just about Morrissey; it applies to most of the writers in this town, at both rags. ) [ Mental image of sheep stumbling over a cliff. ]

When the Cubbies fall on hard times, the media - print and electronic alike - are quick to offer the tea and sympathy of a doting aunt. When it happens to us, the glee is almost palpable. ( Schadenfreude, indeed! ) Guess our biggest sin was to win it all before their darlings ever got a sniff. HAH!!!

The only solace I can find in this entire debacle is that it may - should! - hasten the departure of "Kenny the Genius". If Ozzie goes with him, so be it. It's all part of the same enema.

I don't read any gloating into Morrissey's writing this time. More resignation and befuddlement over what happened to a team that showed so much promise and won the WS two short years ago.

I'm also not willing to throw out KW and OG just yet.

CLR01
08-27-2007, 12:02 PM
Look at 90 wins in 2006 and I think you'll get your answer...

Will you? I see that they finished up 2006 with a 33-41 record in the second half and proceeded to suck in 2007. They've been playing .440 ball for a year and a half. It doesn't seem all that clear to me...

infohawk
08-27-2007, 12:02 PM
In my humble opinion, the Sox problems mostly come down on the minor league system. It's been discussed ad naseum, but rightly so. You either have to have huge payrolls year after year or you have to have a deep farm system to pull from for sustained success. You also have to be able to evaluate what you really have.

I think KW clearly recognizes this problem. I, for one, will never fault him for the bevy of trades he made prior to 2005. He wanted to win and allowed some talent to move to other teams to get what he thought he needed. The bigger problem is that I don't think the White Sox evaluate talent very well in the draft or in their own system. It seems like KW is trying to shake this up a bit with the Schaeffer firing.

Case in point, I think that, compared to what we've had, Wasserman has done a pretty decent job in the 'pen. Why did it take so long to bring him up and why were some others (Dewon Day) tried before him? Like a lot of organizations, the Sox become enamored with "stuff" instead of who can get outs. Day's "stuff" may be better, but Wasserman's weird delivery helps him get outs.

I also find it a bit disturbing that we hardly ever hear much about the players we have traded away who were so highly-regarded by the Sox in their own system. The question is whether they were deliberately over-hyped or if the Sox believed they were really that good?

kittle42
08-27-2007, 12:14 PM
Yes, let's get rid of anyone even partially responsible for us ever winning ASAP!

If teams didn't when they fall on hard times, no management would ever get fired.

The minor league system is a mess. The major league team is a mess. The people in charge of those two things need to be held accountable.

rdivaldi
08-27-2007, 12:18 PM
If teams didn't when they fall on hard times, no management would ever get fired.

The minor league system is a mess.

Then I guess the A's should fire Billy Beane immediately for their sub-par season.

Why/how is the minor league system a "mess"? It seems a lot of people have become minor league experts all of a sudden...

oeo
08-27-2007, 12:20 PM
The only solace I can find in this entire debacle is that it may - should! - hasten the departure of "Kenny the Genius". If Ozzie goes with him, so be it. It's all part of the same enema.

There's a better chance that we make the postseason this year. Jerry won't fire Kenny any time in the near future.

rdivaldi
08-27-2007, 12:20 PM
Will you? I see that they finished up 2006 with a 33-41 record in the second half and proceeded to suck in 2007.

I look at full season performances, not half-season performances. This year is a fluke, it will be corrected.

kitekrazy
08-27-2007, 12:38 PM
There's a better chance that we make the postseason this year. Jerry won't fire Kenny any time in the near future.

Why should he? Most of Kenny's deals have worked out. They may not always long term.

With so much changing of team rosters, dynasties don't exist anymore. George S. still tries to buy one but it hasn't worked out. A bunch of stars don't always make a great team.

Did anyone really think with the 2005 roster that they would win the Series? I just thought that it was another lame attempt to be "competitive". I'm, not going to let this season erase how special 2005 was. There was no fluke. Last years Tigers were a fluke. They got beat by a .500 team from a weak league. To me not being in the post season was better than that.

LITTLE NELL
08-27-2007, 01:57 PM
One of the biggest mistakes the organization made was trading Rowand. I know this board has gone over this before but to me Rowand is a Nellie Fox sort of player. Every team needs a few like that and this team does not have any. I know some one is going to respond with some OBP and OBS stats but Rowand is a grinder and there are no stats for that, just wins.

Grzegorz
08-27-2007, 01:59 PM
One of the biggest mistakes the organization made was trading Rowand. I know this board has gone over this before but to me Rowand is a Nellie Fox sort of player. Every team needs a few like that and this team does not have any. I know some one is going to respond with some OBP and OBS stats but Rowand is a grinder and there are no stats for that, just wins.

That theory just might be put to the test in 2008.

LITTLE NELL
08-27-2007, 02:22 PM
That theory just might be put to the test in 2008.
Rowand leads in a poll on WhiteSox.com on who you would like the Sox to sign from a list of FAs.

PatK
08-27-2007, 03:09 PM
I also find it a bit disturbing that we hardly ever hear much about the players we have traded away who were so highly-regarded by the Sox in their own system. The question is whether they were deliberately over-hyped or if the Sox believed they were really that good?

Chris Young seems to be getting some attention.

kitekrazy
08-27-2007, 05:19 PM
One of the biggest mistakes the organization made was trading Rowand. I know this board has gone over this before but to me Rowand is a Nellie Fox sort of player. Every team needs a few like that and this team does not have any. I know some one is going to respond with some OBP and OBS stats but Rowand is a grinder and there are no stats for that, just wins.

From a hindsight view it was a bad trade. The Sox organization can't break way from station to station baseball any more than an addict from his crack pipe.

TommyJohn
08-27-2007, 07:10 PM
I don't read any gloating into Morrissey's writing this time. More resignation and befuddlement over what happened to a team that showed so much promise and won the WS two short years ago.

I'm also not willing to throw out KW and OG just yet.

No, the gloating is coming from Mariotti and Couch.

MarySwiss
08-27-2007, 08:00 PM
No, the gloating is coming from Mariotti and Couch.
Actually, the Windsock seems to have set his sights on Grossman of late. And although I am no Grossman fan, that fact alone makes me root for "Sexy Rexy."

CLR01
08-27-2007, 09:51 PM
I look at full season performances, not half-season performances. This year is a fluke, it will be corrected.

How's the view from down there?

One of the biggest mistakes the organization made was trading Rowand. I know this board has gone over this before but to me Rowand is a Nellie Fox sort of player. Every team needs a few like that and this team does not have any. I know some one is going to respond with some OBP and OBS stats but Rowand is a grinder and there are no stats for that, just wins.

Just like in '01, '02, '03, '04, 06 and most likely '07. :rolleyes:

LITTLE NELL
08-28-2007, 12:19 PM
How's the view from down there?



Just like in '01, '02, '03, '04, 06 and most likely '07. :rolleyes:
Except for this year we were over .500 for those years. In fact the Sox have one of the best records for this decade. When I said wins thats what I meant; wins. If you dont win some sort of a championship a winning season is still a whole lot better than this year.

CLR01
08-28-2007, 04:49 PM
Except for this year we were over .500 for those years. In fact the Sox have one of the best records for this decade. When I said wins thats what I meant; wins. If you dont win some sort of a championship a winning season is still a whole lot better than this year.

Yeah there's nothing like 83 wins and a second place, playoff missing year. Rowand will save us....duh....

LITTLE NELL
08-28-2007, 05:05 PM
Yeah there's nothing like 83 wins and a second place, playoff missing year. Rowand will save us....duh....
All I know is that I'd rather have 25 Rowands on my team than 25 Uribes or Claudell Washingtons.

CLR01
08-28-2007, 05:08 PM
All I know is that I'd rather have 25 Rowands on my team than 25 Uribes or Claudell Washingtons.


I'll take death, thank you.

LITTLE NELL
08-28-2007, 05:12 PM
I'll take death, thank you.
Why all the hate for Rowand from not only you but others on this board? Im not a baseball genius but Ive been a Sox fan since 1953 and I miss Rowand. Who would you like in center next year?

chisoxfanatic
08-28-2007, 05:38 PM
Why all the hate for Rowand from not only you but others on this board?
I don't understand it either. He was a huge ingredient in the World Series Championship two years ago! He's the ultimate "grinder." He can both hit and field at the elite level. I'd take him back in a heartbeat.

LITTLE NELL
08-28-2007, 05:49 PM
I don't understand it either. He was a huge ingredient in the World Series Championship two years ago! He's the ultimate "grinder." He can both hit and field at the elite level. I'd take him back in a heartbeat.
Thank you sir, however it might be a moot point. Just read that Philly is on the verge of resigning him.

CLR01
08-28-2007, 05:54 PM
Why all the hate for Rowand from not only you but others on this board? Im not a baseball genius but Ive been a Sox fan since 1953 and I miss Rowand. Who would you like in center next year?

Because he is the most over rated player ever on WSI and people wont shut up about him.

Philly is on the verge of resigning him.

:praying: I'll chip in, buy season tickets or do whatever it takes to get it done.

KingXerxes
08-30-2007, 12:31 PM
:praying: I'll chip in, buy season tickets or do whatever it takes to get it done.

Funny.

HerzogVon
08-30-2007, 12:44 PM
Because he is the most over rated player ever on WSI and people wont shut up about him.


:

How is he overrated? Kenny made a bad trade. Now, everyone wants to blame Rowand because Kenny the Genius can do no wrong. Talk about overrated...

FedEx227
08-30-2007, 12:52 PM
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/language_tips/2007-04/04/xin_090404041921791055611.gif

Oh my god. Can we EVER, EVER, EVER have like 2 days straight here at WSI where somebody doesn't bring up bringing Rowand back. For god's sake people he wasn't and still isn't that good.

Great he's having a monster year in Philadelphia that's fine, of the games I've seen he still struggles at reading the balls in CF. There was a play last week where he came up then had to go back and ended up letting a ball eat him up, and lost the game for the Phillies.

And don't forget what a hitters paradise Philadelphia is.

Look at these splits and tell me he's not benefiting from playing in Citizens Bank Park or in the NL.

Aaron Rowand 2007

Home: 244 ABs, .336/.406/.594, 15 HR, 43 RBIs,
Away: 243 ABs, .284/.354/.428, 6 HRs, 31 RBI
Difference Home to Away: -.52/-.52/-.240, -9 HR, -12 RBI

drewcifer
08-30-2007, 01:25 PM
Oh my god. Can we EVER, EVER, EVER have like 2 days straight here at WSI where somebody doesn't bring up bringing Rowand back. For god's sake people he wasn't and still isn't that good.

Great he's having a monster year in Philadelphia that's fine, of the games I've seen he still struggles at reading the balls in CF. There was a play last week where he came up then had to go back and ended up letting a ball eat him up, and lost the game for the Phillies.

And don't forget what a hitters paradise Philadelphia is.

Look at these splits and tell me he's not benefiting from playing in Citizens Bank Park or in the NL.

Aaron Rowand 2007

Home: 244 ABs, .336/.406/.594, 15 HR, 43 RBIs,
Away: 243 ABs, .284/.354/.428, 6 HRs, 31 RBI
Difference Home to Away: -.52/-.52/-.240, -9 HR, -12 RBI

Put Philly aside - Over the last 5 years with us, Rowand averaged:
423 ABs, .288/.343/.468, 16 HR, 57 RBIs

Not saying I think Rowand is the panacea to the problems with this team, but
you'd have to be blind to NOT to see why/where the love is coming from.

Nobody in the OF this year is anywhere near this.

soxrme
08-30-2007, 02:50 PM
Except for this year we were over .500 for those years. In fact the Sox have one of the best records for this decade. When I said wins thats what I meant; wins. If you dont win some sort of a championship a winning season is still a whole lot better than this year.
KW traded away or let go many of the players responsible for that record. A pretty good team was built and then dismantled with not enough in return.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2007, 03:18 PM
How is he overrated? Kenny made a bad trade. Now, everyone wants to blame Rowand because Kenny the Genius can do no wrong. Talk about overrated...

It was the right move to make at the time given the information KW had at the time.

It didn't turn out as planned.

The absence of Rowand and presence of Thome did not cost the Sox a shot at the playoffs in 2006 - the poor starting pitching did.

FedEx227
08-30-2007, 04:08 PM
It was the right move to make at the time given the information KW had at the time.

It didn't turn out as planned.

The absence of Rowand and presence of Thome did not cost the Sox a shot at the playoffs in 2006 - the poor starting pitching did.

People just cannot grasp that fact. Thome made our offense one of the most powerful in White Sox history. We didn't lose because we didn't have enough grindyness or toughness or any of the other ridiculous things attributed to average white players without great stats, it was horrible starting pitching and a poor bullpen.

Nellie_Fox
08-30-2007, 04:37 PM
People just cannot grasp that fact. Thome made our offense one of the most powerful in White Sox history. We didn't lose because we didn't have enough grindyness or toughness or any of the other ridiculous things attributed to average white players without great stats, it was horrible starting pitching and a poor bullpen.Leave race out of it.

Man Soo Lee
08-30-2007, 04:55 PM
So, was 2005 a fluke for the Sox or was 2007 a perfect storm of bad events?

I've seen this question come up several times and I don't see why either has to be true. Compared to 2005, the 2007 team has played inferior players at LF, CF, 3B, and 2B. The bullpen is weaker.

The 2005 Sox were fortunate to get career years from a few relievers, but it was a solid team. The 2007 roster is full of bad players.

FedEx227
08-30-2007, 05:16 PM
Leave race out of it.

It wasn't meant to be a racial thing, it was a joke we had here awhile ago when we were picking out who was/wasn't grinders. But sorry, I suppose.

wassagstdu
08-30-2007, 07:01 PM
I look at full season performances, not half-season performances. This year is a fluke, it will be corrected.
This team went from best in baseball to worst overnight at the All-Star break in 2006. That's a year and a half in each category. Is it just that the difference between best and worst is a couple of bad breaks and an injury or two? Or did something change the team chemistry that nobody is talking about? I think it has gone well beyond random statistical variation.

kitekrazy
08-30-2007, 08:27 PM
This team went from best in baseball to worst overnight at the All-Star break in 2006. That's a year and a half in each category. Is it just that the difference between best and worst is a couple of bad breaks and an injury or two? Or did something change the team chemistry that nobody is talking about? I think it has gone well beyond random statistical variation.

I think it's a bunch of players with steadily declining skills. Most of them only have one skill. When that one skill isn't happening then we know how bad they are.

Uribe always sucked as a hitter. Without his great glove, his poor hitting, base running sticks out.

Konerko doesn't bring much other than homeruns. Sloooooooowww. You don't have to pitch from the stretch if he's on base. Probably not marketable in the NL.

Thome-I'm not fond of injured players in the DH position.

Dye-does come up with a good play in the OF once in a while. Health concerns.

Pods-can't field, throw or stay on the field.

Crede- a big ?. Great glove with power. No speed. I feel sorry for Fields because we have been spoiled by great 3rd basemen.

I now see the love affair some fans have with Rowand. He's a good but not a great ball player and he could do a lot of the little things.

Kenny's moves didn't work out 100%. Sometimes that happens. Everyone forgets in 2005 it was the Cubs projected to be in the Series with additions like Maddux and that didn't work out.

I just don't see 2008 being much better unless they added a player like A-Rod. He might bring back some of those season ticket cancellations.

They need to replace Walker even if he doesn't deserve the blame.

Is anyone willing to trade a few years of losing baseball while they rebuild the minor league organization?

TommyJohn
08-31-2007, 08:45 AM
Is anyone willing to trade a few years of losing baseball while they rebuild the minor league organization?


I should think so. Hell. it was just a few years ago that many people on this
board were asked "would you trade 10 straight, losing 100 loss seasons for
one World Series title?" And the overwhelming response was "Yes! Yes! In a
heartbeat! Yes! Yes!" Wise old posters like Nellie and Torn weren't buying
it, but there it was.

My point is after all that talk, I'm suuuuure everyone will patiently wait while
the farm system is rebuilt.

And by the way, remember the old saying "Be careful what you wish for"?

SBSoxFan
08-31-2007, 10:32 AM
I've seen this question come up several times and I don't see why either has to be true. Compared to 2005, the 2007 team has played inferior players at LF, CF, 3B, and 2B. The bullpen is weaker.

The 2005 Sox were fortunate to get career years from a few relievers, but it was a solid team. The 2007 roster is full of bad players.

At the beginning of this season all but CF had the same starter as 2005. Early on, they looked fairly competitive; most hoped they could continue to tread water while the offense heated up. Well, the offense never heated up, the bullpen tanked for about 1-1/2 months, and a lot of starters got injured. That's a confluence of bad events. I sure don't know what the reason is though!