PDA

View Full Version : Reinsdorf Gives Ozzie an 'A' - What's your grade?


Ken
08-25-2007, 05:38 PM
Professor Jerry Reinsdorf was on the WSCR and gave Ozzie an 'A' for the season! That was not a total surprise, considering Reinsdorf reputation of loyalty to his staff.

Everyone knows this team has been terrible since July 2006 (even prior to any injuries). Ozzie has to assume a major responsibility for this long running collapse.

Look how a new field manager did wonders for the slumping Cubs this year. I give Ozzie an 'F' and say this team needs new leadership in 2008!

ode to veeck
08-25-2007, 05:50 PM
Obviously, in giving this year's reviews out to the Sox management team, Reinsy has ignored the advise of his trusted advisor, ondafarm.

I know we're all greatly disappointed by the 2007 Sox and the last two weeks of sweeps in Oakland and to the Wrong Sox are even that much more painful than they were earlier in the season, but what do you expect from a staunch loyalist who is so mindful of his public image? He's not gonna blast Ozzie and Kenny in public even if he's got some strong feelings and private words for them. He's just not that kind of guy.

Patrick134
08-25-2007, 06:05 PM
Obviously, in giving this year's reviews out to the Sox management team, Reinsy has ignored the advise of his trusted advisor, ondafarm.

I know we're all greatly disappointed by the 2007 Sox and the last two weeks of sweeps in Oakland and to the Wrong Sox are even that much more painful than they were earlier in the season, but what do you expect from a staunch loyalist who is so mindful of his public image? He's not gonna blast Ozzie and Kenny in public even if he's got some strong feelings and private words for them. He's just not that kind of guy.


Between injuries and slumps, what the heck could Ozzie have done anyway ? The fact he hasn't gone insane earns him an A.

kittle42
08-25-2007, 06:10 PM
D

He is a horrible game planner and doesn't seem to understand matchups or bullpen management.

JB98
08-25-2007, 06:14 PM
D

He is a horrible game planner and doesn't seem to understand matchups or bullpen management.

I would also assign a D. Ozzie has had to choose between a host of bad options throughout most of the year, but he has mishandled the pitching staff this season.

From top to bottom, this has been a bad year for the organization. Ozzie shares in the responsibility. If asked, I doubt he would give himself an A.

The Immigrant
08-25-2007, 06:15 PM
I'd give him a C-. This team is absolutely lifeless and the manager bears responsibility for that.

JermaineDye05
08-25-2007, 06:18 PM
Reinsdorf isn't going to bash Kenny or Ozzie on the radio, he'll keep that to himself until he talks to them face to face. Ozzie hasn't done terrible I mean given what he's had to work with after all the injuries and bullpen blowups he probably has between a C+ and a B for me.

Railsplitter
08-25-2007, 06:21 PM
I went to school in one of those district where they give out a "E" grade that does not stand for "Excellent." That's what I''m giving him.

We need a solid buul pen.

dickallen15
08-25-2007, 06:24 PM
Its funny the same man who said Gene LaMont deserved to be fired about 30 games into the 1995 season after leading the team to the division title in 1993 and 1994 was the year the organization still insists except for a strike they would have won the WS, gives Ozzie an A for this season.

WhiteSox5187
08-25-2007, 06:24 PM
D

He is a horrible game planner and doesn't seem to understand matchups or bullpen management.
Boy, he was a genius in '05...I give him a C. He got dealt a lousy hand and did the most with it, it's not his fault nobody in the bullpen can get someone out, it's not his fault he doesn't have a leadoff man, it's not his fault that there is a massive black hole at short, it's not his fault that no one on this team can get a god damned bunt down...the team has quit, he DOES bear some responsiblity for that. But really, when you get swepted in the West Coast and get your ass kicked at home, how do you keep your team into it?? THe kids should be into it already because they're fighting for jobs, if they're not into it that's more of a reflection on them then on Ozzie. But how the hell do you keep guys like Konerko, AJ, Thome and Dye intrested in this season?? What the hell are they playing for??

veeter
08-25-2007, 06:27 PM
Obviously he's a terrible manager in times of crisis. In '05 when Cleveland was closing in, he looked scared and lost. They hung on and kicked ass because of the players, mainly: Hermanson, Jenks, Politte and Cotts. I really feel Ozzie had nothing to do with holding the team together or anything. He was a lucky monkey driving the bus.

JB98
08-25-2007, 06:27 PM
Boy, he was a genius in '05...I give him a C. He got dealt a lousy hand and did the most with it, it's not his fault nobody in the bullpen can get someone out, it's not his fault he doesn't have a leadoff man, it's not his fault that there is a massive black hole at short, it's not his fault that no one on this team can get a god damned bunt down...the team has quit, he DOES bear some responsiblity for that. But really, when you get swepted in the West Coast and get your ass kicked at home, how do you keep your team into it?? THe kids should be into it already because they're fighting for jobs, if they're not into it that's more of a reflection on them then on Ozzie. But how the hell do you keep guys like Konerko, AJ, Thome and Dye intrested in this season?? What the hell are they playing for??

I see more fight out of AJ than any player on this club.

WhiteSox5187
08-25-2007, 06:28 PM
Obviously he's a terrible manager in times of crisis. In '05 when Cleveland was closing in, he looked scared and lost. They hung on and kicked ass because of the players, mainly: Hermanson, Jenks, Politte and Cotts. I really feel Ozzie had nothing to do with holding the team together or anything. He was a lucky monkey driving the bus.
I think that the whole team got together and acted as one, Ozzie included. I don't think it was any fun for him though, I don't think it was any fun for ANYONE on that team.

WhiteSox5187
08-25-2007, 06:29 PM
I see more fight out of AJ than any player on this club.
I agree, but I think that's just his personality. My point was how do you keep a vet inspired when there's clearly nothing to play for.

veeter
08-25-2007, 06:30 PM
Grades: B during spring training and when the team is playing well.
F for times of trouble.

ilsox7
08-25-2007, 06:32 PM
I agree, but I think that's just his personality. My point was how do you keep a vet inspired when there's clearly nothing to play for.

There's this thing called pride.

veeter
08-25-2007, 06:32 PM
I agree, but I think that's just his personality. My point was how do you keep a vet inspired when there's clearly nothing to play for.Shouldn't it be every professional atheletes personality, to be intense?

WhiteSox5187
08-25-2007, 06:35 PM
There's this thing called pride.
I think that pride is dead in most professional sports. It's sad but it's true. When you're getting paid twelve million dollars a year, who needs pride?

Also, pride or not, it's HARD to go out there day after day for three hours in brutal heat and play your heart out...I think after that series with Cleveland (after we swept Detroit) we started to give a little less and a little less and after that series out west, we just totally gave up. Our boys our mentally beaten. Who wouldn't be?

ilsox7
08-25-2007, 06:36 PM
I think that pride is dead in most professional sports. It's sad but it's true. When you're getting paid twelve million dollars a year, who needs pride?

Also, pride or not, it's HARD to go out there day after day for three hours in brutal heat and play your heart out...I think after that series with Cleveland (after we swept Detroit) we started to give a little less and a little less and after that series out west, we just totally gave up. Our boys our mentally beaten. Who wouldn't be?

That's bull****. If you don't have pride in what you do, no matter what profession, then get the hell out of there. If these players cannot show some ****ing pride, then **** them.

WhiteSox5187
08-25-2007, 06:41 PM
That's bull****. If you don't have pride in what you do, no matter what profession, then get the hell out of there. If these players cannot show some ****ing pride, then **** them.
I want to clarify this, when I said pride was dead in professional sports I wasn't refering to the White Sox specifically. I think for the most part pride is dead, or at the very least, for sale. If there was more pride you wouldn't see guys going from the Red Sox to the Yankees or hardly ever leaving their first team...

I think the case with the White Sox is they are just mentally beaten. In fact, I think they're mentally destroyed. And who wouldn't be?

JB98
08-25-2007, 06:41 PM
That's bull****. If you don't have pride in what you do, no matter what profession, then get the hell out of there. If these players cannot show some ****ing pride, then **** them.

I agree completely. The White Sox have been embarrassed in several games the last two weeks. It's old and tiring. It's infuriating to watch this club just sit there and take beatings like this.

I don't get to mail in the rest of my season tickets for a refund, so these players better not mail in the rest of the season. I'm starting to see signs of that, and I'm not pleased. Not pleased at all.

ilsox7
08-25-2007, 06:43 PM
I want to clarify this, when I said pride was dead in professional sports I wasn't refering to the White Sox specifically. I think for the most part pride is dead, or at the very least, for sale. If there was more pride you wouldn't see guys going from the Red Sox to the Yankees or hardly ever leaving their first team...

I think the case with the White Sox is they are just mentally beaten. In fact, I think they're mentally destroyed. And who wouldn't be?

And all I am saying is if guys on this team don't have the pride to go out there every day and give it their all, then **** them. I don't want them on this team, no matter who it is. If they are not mentally capable of going through an awful season like this, then maybe they had better show up in April before they are out of it.

SOXandILLINI
08-25-2007, 06:47 PM
D-

WhiteSox5187
08-25-2007, 06:57 PM
And all I am saying is if guys on this team don't have the pride to go out there every day and give it their all, then **** them. I don't want them on this team, no matter who it is. If they are not mentally capable of going through an awful season like this, then maybe they had better show up in April before they are out of it.
I really think you underestimate how hard it is mentally to go out there day after day give it your all and get your ass kicked. None of us have been on a major league roster (I don't think) so I don't think any of us can say accurately what the mental strain of a season like this is. My point is, it's a hell of a lot tougher than you think.

It's one thing when you can just sit back and watch the game and when it displeases you, turn it off, change the channel or not watch the game. It's very very different when you HAVE to be there day in and day out. And when you're winning the thought of "Oh God how are we going to blow this?" has to be very difficult and mentally draining. Christ, everybody gets mentally drained, that's why we have friggin' vacations. And for a baseball player, their vacation doesn't start until October.

ilsox7
08-25-2007, 07:01 PM
I really think you underestimate how hard it is mentally to go out there day after day give it your all and get your ass kicked. None of us have been on a major league roster (I don't think) so I don't think any of us can say accurately what the mental strain of a season like this is. My point is, it's a hell of a lot tougher than you think.

It's one thing when you can just sit back and watch the game and when it displeases you, turn it off, change the channel or not watch the game. It's very very different when you HAVE to be there day in and day out. And when you're winning the thought of "Oh God how are we going to blow this?" has to be very difficult and mentally draining. Christ, everybody gets mentally drained, that's why we have friggin' vacations. And for a baseball player, their vacation doesn't start until October.

Ever had a job that is mentally draining and you HAVE to go in for 12-14 hours a day? All while working for an abusive boss? And you have to pay your bills so you cannot quit? Sorry, just b/c these guys have to stand out in the heat for 3 hours, whilst getting the best medical treatment money can buy and earning 7 figures, does not make them immune to harsh and deserved criticism if they cannot give it their all.

So no, being a major league baseball player on a horrible team is not tougher than I think.

CLR01
08-25-2007, 07:02 PM
I really think you underestimate how hard it is mentally to go out there day after day give it your all and get your ass kicked. None of us have been on a major league roster (I don't think) so I don't think any of us can say accurately what the mental strain of a season like this is. My point is, it's a hell of a lot tougher than you think.

It's one thing when you can just sit back and watch the game and when it displeases you, turn it off, change the channel or not watch the game. It's very very different when you HAVE to be there day in and day out. And when you're winning the thought of "Oh God how are we going to blow this?" has to be very difficult and mentally draining. Christ, everybody gets mentally drained, that's why we have friggin' vacations. And for a baseball player, their vacation doesn't start until October.

It doesn't end until late February either.

Poor guys, must be so hard to work for 6 months straight...:rolleyes:

KyWhiSoxFan
08-25-2007, 07:11 PM
I'd give him a D. He is a terrible bench manager and he can't seem to inspire the team. The Sox have been listless and underacheiving for a more than a year. How JR can give him an A is unfathomable, unless A means something else.

FarWestChicago
08-25-2007, 07:16 PM
I really think you underestimate how hard it is mentally to go out there day after day give it your all and get your ass kicked.This is pure bull****. I've worked in more than one plant that got closed down for one reason or another. In each instance we spent months working hard every day knowing on day x the place was gone. We still did our jobs. And we weren't getting paid millions. You seriously underestimate what a true professional can do.

WhiteSox5187
08-25-2007, 07:16 PM
Ever had a job that is mentally draining and you HAVE to go in for 12-14 hours a day? All while working for an abusive boss? And you have to pay your bills so you cannot quit? Sorry, just b/c these guys have to stand out in the heat for 3 hours, whilst getting the best medical treatment money can buy and earning 7 figures, does not make them immune to harsh and deserved criticism if they cannot give it their all.

So no, being a major league baseball player on a horrible team is not tougher than I think.
I'm not saying that they should be IMMUNE from criticism. Quite the contrary, I think that this team should be criticized. Nor am I trying to show the "plight" of the poor ball players who make millions. But what exactly are they supposed to be taking pride in??? "hey, we jsut got our ass kicked 12-2! Woo-hoo!" I think that they ought to be embarrased for this. They oughta be embarrased at the way they're playing. And I'm sure guys like Konerko and AJ are.

My real point is though that it's easy for us to sit back and criticize them for not showing any hustle, not showing any heart or pride, but really, what the **** would we be doing in that situation? The 2007 White Sox right now are models of human behavior. Let's put money out of the question for a second right now, and let me ask you this if you had to work 12-14 hours day in and day out with maybe, maybe if your lucky you get about four days off in a month, and then after your work and while you work you have about 30,000 people on your ass because you didn't do this right, or you made a mistake or even if you DID do a good job your company or whatever sill lost money, are you telling me that after a couple months of that you wouldn't start going in to work with your head hung low? You wouldn't start dreading going into work? I think it's just human nature to start dreading going into work REGARDLESS of how much you get paid.

So I'm not saying don't criticize, a team this bad deserves to be criticized. But let's cut 'em SOME slack. If Konerko makes an error, call him on the error, but don't go in there and start saying "Why the hell doesn't he show any god damned pride! I'm so ****ing sick of these ****ers what the **** is wrong with them? I deserve better for this!" Because I look at a guy like Konerko and I see an immensely proud man and it can't be any fun for him or anyone else on this team to get their ass kicked day in and day out and I think it's only basic human nature to start to get a little down. I'll call him on the error, I'll call him on his mechanics, but to start to question a guy's pride...that's where we get into a rather murky area and I'm not willing to do that. I don't know what's going through his head...not to say that I WON'T do it, but I really shouldn't, because I think if either you or I were out there, we'd be doing the same thing.

Tragg
08-25-2007, 08:17 PM
I really think you underestimate how hard it is mentally to go out there day after day give it your all and get your ass kicked.
Actually, it isn't hard at all. But they're out of the race, the contract is guaranteed - the incentives aren't there. So they don't.
And losing that mental/physical/emotional edge makes a huge difference.
As for Ozzie- I don't think he's done his best work this year. He had a tougher job than he had in prior years: manage a team with the least talent he's had to date (partly self-inflicted because of his personnel choices); and manage a lot of young players and make them better. So far, not too good.

JB98
08-25-2007, 08:33 PM
Ozzie was asked today what grade he would give himself. His response: "Z."

jdm2662
08-25-2007, 09:58 PM
This is pure bull****. I've worked in more than one plant that got closed down for one reason or another. In each instance we spent months working hard every day knowing on day x the place was gone. We still did our jobs. And we weren't getting paid millions. You seriously underestimate what a true professional can do.

I'm with you West. I've had two jobs that where we were getting laid off/phased out. Everyone still worked. I worked under a terrible management team my last job. I still worked. I can only imagine being worse in your profession. Don't want to hear how hard it is. My wedding I'm planning is going to me more than half my yearly salary. :o:

As for the the question on hand, I will give Ozzie a C- this season. I'm not a fan of his matchups. However, a manager can only do so much when your team doesn't hit and your pitchers can't get outs. A manager can only give so many pep talks. Ozzie and Kenny have earned themselves the right to fix this mess. Let's see what happens in the off season.

kitekrazy
08-25-2007, 10:02 PM
Between injuries and slumps, what the heck could Ozzie have done anyway ? The fact he hasn't gone insane earns him an A.

I have to agree with you there. He could've resigned and be like the rest of the quitters on this team.
This is his first bad season.

GlassSox
08-25-2007, 10:05 PM
Well after reading this thread I guess on Sep 1st they should go ahead and refund any tickets, close the cell, and give the Sox the rest of the season off. Oh yea, let management and the players keep all of their salaries.

BainesHOF
08-25-2007, 10:39 PM
Ozzie: D+
Kenny: D
Players: F

jabrch
08-25-2007, 10:42 PM
Everyone had a crappy season in terms of results.

A. Cavatica
08-25-2007, 11:14 PM
This is his first bad season.

*cough* 2006 *cough*

TornLabrum
08-26-2007, 12:30 AM
*cough* 2006 *cough*

Yeah, I hate those 90-win seasons.

ode to veeck
08-26-2007, 12:35 AM
Ozzie was asked today what grade he would give himself. His response: "Z."

Ozzie will always give you the most brutal honesty off the top of his head. You just don't always know what the heck's hanging out on the top of his head, and as he's watching all these really ugly games the rest of us are, I can tell you it can't be pretty.

JB98
08-26-2007, 02:02 AM
Ozzie will always give you the most brutal honesty off the top of his head. You just don't always know what the heck's hanging out on the top of his head, and as he's watching all these really ugly games the rest of us are, I can tell you it can't be pretty.

Ozzie went on to say that he is ultimately responsible for the poor play of this ballclub. Of course, many people are responsible for the poor play of this ballclub, not just Ozzie. But I'm glad the manager is not trying to run from the fact that he shares in the blame. The question for Ozzie now is, what can he do to fix the problems that exist here?

TDog
08-26-2007, 03:42 AM
Obviously, in giving this year's reviews out to the Sox management team, Reinsy has ignored the advise of his trusted advisor, ondafarm.

I know we're all greatly disappointed by the 2007 Sox and the last two weeks of sweeps in Oakland and to the Wrong Sox are even that much more painful than they were earlier in the season, but what do you expect from a staunch loyalist who is so mindful of his public image? He's not gonna blast Ozzie and Kenny in public even if he's got some strong feelings and private words for them. He's just not that kind of guy.

You make a good point. Of course, Jerry Reinsdorf has been known for his lack of diplomacy at times (i.e., "anyone who thinks we're going to catch the Indians is crazy"). I do believe there is some sincerity in what Jerry Reinsdorf said about Kenny Williams and Ozzie Gullen.

People may disagree with Mr.Reinsdorf in his support of Williams and Guillen. I can only imagine the anger around here if he had expressed his support for Greg Walker.

Grzegorz
08-26-2007, 04:44 AM
I have to agree with you there. He could've resigned and be like the rest of the quitters on this team.
This is his first bad season.

*cough* 2006 *cough*

Yeah, I hate those 90-win seasons.

How come the Chicago White Sox didn't make the 2006 playoffs? Wasn't ninety wins supposed to get them there?

Total number of wins in a season means nothing unless there is a title associated with that season. Success is measured by titles not by victories.

MILTMAY5
08-26-2007, 06:15 AM
I see more fight out of AJ than any player on this club.That is why I feel this "Captain" Konerko idea is BS. I love Paulie, however, AJ is the ONLY leader on this team.

TornLabrum
08-26-2007, 08:44 AM
How come the Chicago White Sox didn't make the 2006 playoffs? Wasn't ninety wins supposed to get them there?

Total number of wins in a season means nothing unless there is a title associated with that season. Success is measured by titles not by victories.


That means only one team in every league in the world is successful and all others are failures, which of course is nonsense.

Grzegorz
08-26-2007, 09:58 AM
Torn,

There are degrees of success but ultimately baseball is measured in titles.

I've been a part of this thread long enough to see many posters rail against the Twins. They win a division title or two and then fade in the playoffs. This is seen as a failure by the WSI folk. We fans should judge ourselves and our team based on the same criteria we judge other teams in our league.

Face it, building a team and seeing it coalesce for a title run means something. A steady improvement year over year is what fans want to see. The Tigers of the early eighties and Blue Jays of the mid-eighties are good examples of building with youth/imported talent and ultimately winning a title.

The 2006 White Sox, with their ninety wins never played consistent baseball. Maybe one could argue that the first half was good (I would not based on baseball fundementals) but the second half proved to be a huge disappointment.

So what am I saying? Wins mean nothing; they (wins) are a means to an end. (titles)

soxrme
08-26-2007, 10:06 AM
Ozzie: D+
Kenny: D
Players: F
You have Kenny graded way to high!

UserNameBlank
08-26-2007, 10:15 AM
Ozzie is a part of this mess and doesn't deserve an A for anything. No one on this team does except for Jenks (A+) and Buehrle (A++++++) because of his no-hitter and sweet below market contract extension.

Erstad gets an F for fantastic. He always does.

slavko
08-26-2007, 10:25 AM
That is why I feel this "Captain" Konerko idea is BS. I love Paulie, however, AJ is the ONLY leader on this team.

Is it too far-fetched to imagine him (AJ) as a future manager? Here? Sooner than later? If baseball smarts is a criterion, he's in.

UserNameBlank
08-26-2007, 10:25 AM
You have Kenny graded way to high!
I certainly wouldn't give KW an A but I wouldn't give him a D either. Maybe a C+ or B-. He made some good moves over the offseason but they haven't paid off, at least not yet. Danks still has a ways to go but is on the right track, Massett, Floyd, Sisco, and Aardsma were solid pickups considering who we traded to get them but haven't played to even 1/10 of their potential. Gio was a good move.

I think the best moves Kenny could have made were the ones he didn't make, but that is all in hindsight. I'd take Hirsch, Tavares, and Buccholz for Garland (especially if Pence could have been substituted for someone in that deal) and I'd take Figgins and Santana for Crede right now, but what's in the past is in the past. Kenny does need to be seriously active this winter and I'm not talking about Rowand and Eckstein. He needs to get some young players with potential and build a core.

DoItForDanPasqua
08-26-2007, 10:26 AM
Yeah, I hate those 90-win seasons.

I don't think many people, including myself, would consider last year to be a success. The expectations were high for the 2006 team and they did not meet them.

A baseball season is always judged in context. If Milwaukee finishes .500 this year (and they probably won't) the season will be considered a success because of their history of failure and the bar being set low for them.

Last year's White Sox, however, were coming of a title and were supposed to have gotten even better. The team had 55 wins by July 1, but managed only 35 after that. To me last year was a disappointment, 90 wins or not.

TornLabrum
08-26-2007, 10:57 AM
I don't think many people, including myself, would consider last year to be a success. The expectations were high for the 2006 team and they did not meet them.

A baseball season is always judged in context. If Milwaukee finishes .500 this year (and they probably won't) the season will be considered a success because of their history of failure and the bar being set low for them.

Last year's White Sox, however, were coming of a title and were supposed to have gotten even better. The team had 55 wins by July 1, but managed only 35 after that. To me last year was a disappointment, 90 wins or not.

As I've noted many times in my column, I wanted a dynasty. My point is pretty close to what you said. Coming off 2004, a 90-win season would have been considered a success. Last year, it was a disappointment, but it certainly wasn't unsuccessful. After all, they could have played like they did this year for the entire season.

Context IS everything. As Carl Skanberg might have said, we wanted more pie.

To put it another way. Up until 2005 there were numerous polls and other threads on this web site that asked the question, "Would you settle for x number of seasons (usually 20) of last place finishes for one World Championship?" The number of "Yes" answers was (to me) frightening.

Well, you can't have it both ways. I was calling for a dynasty then. I wonder how many of the people who are *****ing about this year's team voted "Yes" in those polls. I still want a dynasty. Always did. It seems to me that a lot of expectations have changed, and I certainly hope that those who are complaining about this year, were "Yes" voters in those polls.

Brian26
08-26-2007, 11:03 AM
The Score must be replaying that interview every other hour this weekend. I was in my car on Friday night and yesterday at random times, and both times the interview was on.

I thought it was a pretty decent interview, but Reinsdorf's claim that the Dan Ryan is preventing them from drawing 3-million is something I disagree with. If people want to go to the games, they're going to find a way, whether it be leaving earlier, taking the CTA, or taking a different route.

Ozzie's grade shouldn't be an A. Anyone who's seen some of his blunders this year can attest to that, but JR has to be a politician too. There's no reason for him to throw his manager under the bus while on the radio.

Brian26
08-26-2007, 11:07 AM
2005 there were numerous polls and other threads on this web site that asked the question, "Would you settle for x number of seasons (usually 20) of last place finishes for one World Championship?" The number of "Yes" answers was (to me) frightening.

Well, you can't have it both ways. I was calling for a dynasty then.

What is your definition of a dynasty? Would 10 straight second place finishes qualify? If it was a choice between that scenario or one World Title and nine last place finishes, I'd take the World Title.

As for the "dynasty" option, I don't remember that being offered. I remember the poll here being an "either/or" scenario.

One other quick comment: do you consider the Sox teams of the 60's a dynasty? I don't. Yet, they finished with 90+ wins and second place many years in a row.

dickallen15
08-26-2007, 11:29 AM
I certainly wouldn't give KW an A but I wouldn't give him a D either. Maybe a C+ or B-. He made some good moves over the offseason but they haven't paid off, at least not yet. Danks still has a ways to go but is on the right track, Massett, Floyd, Sisco, and Aardsma were solid pickups considering who we traded to get them but haven't played to even 1/10 of their potential. Gio was a good move.

I think the best moves Kenny could have made were the ones he didn't make, but that is all in hindsight. I'd take Hirsch, Tavares, and Buccholz for Garland (especially if Pence could have been substituted for someone in that deal) and I'd take Figgins and Santana for Crede right now, but what's in the past is in the past. Kenny does need to be seriously active this winter and I'm not talking about Rowand and Eckstein. He needs to get some young players with potential and build a core.
I'm sorry but you have to grade on how they perform, not what your perceived potential for them is. KW needed to upgrade the bullpen, he actually turned a bad bullpen into one of the worst in team history. He counted on Pods and Erstad to remain healthy. He gave a multi-year deal to Contreras. His minor league system which he publicly was so high on, especially the pitching "depth" has totally failed him. He has the highest payroll in the division and one of the highest in baseball and his team only has a better record than the Tampa Bay D-Rays. He gets an F for 2007. As for Ozzie, if you want to give him all the credit for 2005, you must blame him for 2007. If Jerry Manuel happened to be the manager this season and the exact same results occurred every game, he would be getting buried here, in the media and in the White Sox front office. Personally, I don't think Ozzie was given the horses to win this season so he would get a C- from me. He's done nothing amazing either good or bad, but I think they should have won at least a few more games, so he would be slighty below average. When you actually have Andy Gonzalez leading off occassionally you really can't expect victory.

Lip Man 1
08-26-2007, 12:19 PM
Partial transcript of interview with JR:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070824&content_id=2167554&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Lip

JB98
08-26-2007, 12:29 PM
I don't think many people, including myself, would consider last year to be a success. The expectations were high for the 2006 team and they did not meet them.

A baseball season is always judged in context. If Milwaukee finishes .500 this year (and they probably won't) the season will be considered a success because of their history of failure and the bar being set low for them.

Last year's White Sox, however, were coming of a title and were supposed to have gotten even better. The team had 55 wins by July 1, but managed only 35 after that. To me last year was a disappointment, 90 wins or not.

The 90-win season last year was a disappointment. Personally, I'm glad
we've reached this point as an organization and a fan base. We strive for excellence now, and anything less is disappointing and unacceptable.

That doesn't mean I think 2006 was a bad season. That was a good club. However, it wasn't a championship club, and that was disappointing.

JB98
08-26-2007, 12:39 PM
That is why I feel this "Captain" Konerko idea is BS. I love Paulie, however, AJ is the ONLY leader on this team.

I disagree with that. I think Konerko and Buehrle are leaders. They are the longest tenured players on the team. They are both intense competitors who work extremely hard at their craft. However, you're not likely to see either of those guys punch over a water cooler or anything like that. Since we don't see that, a lot of fans don't perceive them as leaders. But they are.

AJ is more outwardly intense. He's the one guy on this club that we can all tell is very upset by what it taking place here. He just has a different personality than Paulie or Mark.

I think if you asked the players who the leaders are, I think they would point toward Konerko and Buehrle. Here in Chicago, we love the fiery players, the guys like AJ who wear their emotions on their sleeves. But just because a player is fiery does not mean he is the leader of the team.

Frontman
08-26-2007, 01:02 PM
Torn,

There are degrees of success but ultimately baseball is measured in titles.

I've been a part of this thread long enough to see many posters rail against the Twins. They win a division title or two and then fade in the playoffs. This is seen as a failure by the WSI folk. We fans should judge ourselves and our team based on the same criteria we judge other teams in our league.

Face it, building a team and seeing it coalesce for a title run means something. A steady improvement year over year is what fans want to see. The Tigers of the early eighties and Blue Jays of the mid-eighties are good examples of building with youth/imported talent and ultimately winning a title.

The 2006 White Sox, with their ninety wins never played consistent baseball. Maybe one could argue that the first half was good (I would not based on baseball fundementals) but the second half proved to be a huge disappointment.

So what am I saying? Wins mean nothing; they (wins) are a means to an end. (titles)

Then it means that my Grandad's lifelong love of the White Sox meant nothing. Born in 1919, died in 1985. His whole life he was a Sox fan, and I'll be the first to tell you; he loved that team. And I'll be the first to say that his love of the Sox certainly meant something to himself, and his family. That all those days and night of attending games at Comiskey with his grandsons meant nothing to them then, and didn't have a positive end on the men they became?

Yes, titles are the first reason any MLB player plays the game. And obviously, he who wins the last game of the season wins the title. But in saying that, look at how many HoF players who never even played in the World Series, and tell me that they mean nothing to the game.

Are you willing to say Frank Thomas means nothing to the game of baseball? Sure, he's got his ring, but he never took a single swing during the World Series.

That Carlton Fisk, while at least playing in the Series; yet never winning it, means nothing to the game of baseball?

Do you mean to say that the countless hours of watching baseball as a Sox fan meant nothing prior to October of 2005? That players like Billy Pierce, Ozzie Guillen, Greg Luzinski, Ron Kittle, Minnie Minoso; mean nothing to a Sox fan?

It's sad that the "all or nothing" mentality brings about disappointment 99.9 percent of the time. I agree with Hal, I want a dynasty. But the reality of it is that even the best plans, the most amount of money, and making the "right" decisions will not give you a championship.

Baseball is a game that relies on luck, more than folks would care to admit. You can do everything right as a pitcher, yet the batter gets ahold of the ball, drives it into the air, and the wind keeps it from going foul.

I hate to bring up an old post and brag, but like I said here:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1597095&postcount=53

Sports glory and the fun of being a fan isn't just in winning championships.

I'm one of the biggest Walter Payton fans there is, yet he won only one championship. Cory Dillon has won three. Care to make the argument that Dillon is a superior running back, and that Payton wasn't and still is; more significant to the game of football?

Hal was also right that you can't have it both ways. While I want that dynasty, I have to accept that they aren't there now, they may not be there next season. But as I told a customer that I delivered to yesterday, who commented on my Sox hat.

"You really should take that off."

I grinned, winked and said, "Nope. I've worn it too long to take it off now."

Sox Pride may diminish, but it never, EVER goes away.

HomeFish
08-26-2007, 02:33 PM
The guy won the friggin World Series two years ago. Show some grattitude.

Ozzie gets a B from me, since I don't think he can handle a bullpen. He's too into the whole righty/lefty matchup thing, and I hate it when he doesn't bring in the closer or the set-up man until the preceeding pitcher has given up a baserunner. But those of you blaming Ozzie for the Sox being terrible this year need to find a new scapegoat.

downstairs
08-26-2007, 03:16 PM
The guy won the friggin World Series two years ago. Show some grattitude.

Ozzie gets a B from me, since I don't think he can handle a bullpen. He's too into the whole righty/lefty matchup thing, and I hate it when he doesn't bring in the closer or the set-up man until the preceeding pitcher has given up a baserunner. But those of you blaming Ozzie for the Sox being terrible this year need to find a new scapegoat.

Gratitude?

The guy gets paid every year, he's expected to succeed every year. At this point, the team has shown it CAN win a World Series. So from now on, I expect them to.

HomeFish
08-26-2007, 04:22 PM
Gratitude?

The guy gets paid every year, he's expected to succeed every year. At this point, the team has shown it CAN win a World Series. So from now on, I expect them to.

I think your understanding of baseball is flawed. An awful lot of things have to go right for a team to win the World Series. A lot of guys have to have career years at the same time. That's what happened in 2005. To expect all those coincidences to happen again the next year is delusional thinking.

It's really, really hard to repeat in baseball. The only teams that do it are those who shell out lots of money to reload and reload, like the Yankees -- and even they have had a lot of trouble doing it.

Ozzie is not responsible for that failure to reload. Economics is responsible for that failure -- we can't afford to bring in A-Rod, Dice-K, or Vlad Guerrero. As a middle-class team, all we can do is resign the good players we have, take gambles on guys like AJ, Dye, Erstad, etc., and hope that we get lucky again.

SpartanSoxFan
08-26-2007, 04:50 PM
I think Mike North should have his buddy Jerry back on tomorrow morning and see if he would still give Ozzie an 'A' for keeping the team motivated. When you get your ass handed to you 46-7 in a 4 game series, there is no sense of urgency or hustle.

SpartanSoxFan
08-26-2007, 04:53 PM
I think your understanding of baseball is flawed. An awful lot of things have to go right for a team to win the World Series. A lot of guys have to have career years at the same time. That's what happened in 2005. To expect all those coincidences to happen again the next year is delusional thinking.

It's really, really hard to repeat in baseball. The only teams that do it are those who shell out lots of money to reload and reload, like the Yankees -- and even they have had a lot of trouble doing it.

Ozzie is not responsible for that failure to reload. Economics is responsible for that failure -- we can't afford to bring in A-Rod, Dice-K, or Vlad Guerrero. As a middle-class team, all we can do is resign the good players we have, take gambles on guys like AJ, Dye, Erstad, etc., and hope that we get lucky again.

Luck shouldn't be in the equation. The problem is that this organization has a shoddy farm system, and always has. Look at the Twins and the Diamondbacks. They certainly don't have the kind of money the Sox do yet they continue to build contending teams from in-house talent they groomed themselves. The Sox have to change their approach.

UserNameBlank
08-26-2007, 05:24 PM
I'm sorry but you have to grade on how they perform, not what your perceived potential for them is.

You are right to a degree, but at some point you have to look at the players themselves. A GM relies on luck and good scouting, and sometimes things don't work out. The scouting has been there IMO but the luck hasn't.

Thornton and MacDougal were great last year but sucked it hard the first half. Aardsma was lights out and then fell off the planet. Sisco started out well and took a nosedive. Aardsma has the stuff and did very well in the second half of '06. Sisco has the stuff and had a very nice '05. So, the results had been there in the past and each of those relievers just needed an opportunity to right themselves. I'll never look at my GM in a bad light for trading a soft tossing lefty with 2 pitches - both fastballs - who got murdered last year and a 30+ year old bench player who can only reliably play one position, a position which we have the most MLB depth BTW, for 2 young high upside arms who have shown flashes at the MLB level.

KW needed to upgrade the bullpen, he actually turned a bad bullpen into one of the worst in team history.

There were no solutions that jumped out at the time, and usually there never are. The great relievers are generally closers and if they aren't untouchable, they cost top talent. There were a couple decent relievers on the relief market, but notice how they ended up either on crappy teams with comparitively huge contracts and/or on the DL. It's a lot harder to build a bullpen and know what you are getting than it is to build a starting rotation or lineup.

He counted on Pods and Erstad to remain healthy.

I'd rather have Pods and be able to deny arbitration on him over the offseason than be stuck with Julio Lugo, Dave Roberts, or Juan Pierre and those contracts. KW made the right move in not overspending for these types of players on the market. Taveras was available and according to one report almost traded to the Sox, but KW decided to keep Garland in order to contend. In retrospect I wish the Sox made the deal, but I can't fault KW for keeping Jon because he wanted to contend and looked at Jon as a key contributor.

As for Erstad, he was supposed to be a backup CF and insurance for Pods who wasn't supposed to begin the season with the team. That was a good move up until Ozzie decided to play Grinderstad every day.

He gave a multi-year deal to Contreras.

Yes he did. In the 2005-06 offseason. If Jose had hit the FA market after '06 he would have gotten a large multi-year contract from some team - at least two years if not three plus. And while right now it would look better by not signing him, going into this year many Sox fans would have been pissed that we gave up what had been our best pitcher because of our philosophy on not signing older pitchers. Also, if we had no Contreras that would mean at least one of the Garcia/McCarthy trades would not have occurred.

His minor league system which he publicly was so high on, especially the pitching "depth" has totally failed him.

I don't think Kenny is high on our minor league system at all. He fired Duane Schaffer. What he says in the media should be taken with a grain of salt. Before the Garcia trade (from Seattle) KW was calling Joe Borchard "untouchable." Kenny would have shipped off Borchard for something valuable in a heartbeat. Watch him say some positive stuff about Broadway over this offseason. Then watch Lance end up in a new organization. Kenny is a ninja, remember.

He has the highest payroll in the division and one of the highest in baseball and his team only has a better record than the Tampa Bay D-Rays. He gets an F for 2007.

I'd say the results so far are an F all the way around, but I don't think the moves he made are worthy of such a grade. He did a lot better than an F job over the offseason but the results haven't been there. He didn't make one stupid trade and like I said before, the best moves he could have made he didn't. But still, he was trying to contend. We'd be better off in the future if he would have dealt Garland, Jose, Dye, Pods, Anderson, Sweeney, Crede, Thornton, and MacDougal in the offseason/ST, but again, this is all in hindsight.

As for Ozzie, if you want to give him all the credit for 2005, you must blame him for 2007. If Jerry Manuel happened to be the manager this season and the exact same results occurred every game, he would be getting buried here, in the media and in the White Sox front office. Personally, I don't think Ozzie was given the horses to win this season so he would get a C- from me. He's done nothing amazing either good or bad, but I think they should have won at least a few more games, so he would be slighty below average. When you actually have Andy Gonzalez leading off occassionally you really can't expect victory.

I wouldn't give Ozzie an F because he didn't have the team he needs. No manager in baseball would have won with our team this year. That said, baseball wise this has been Ozzie's worst year by far. He gets a C from me all things considered. If not for such a garbage team around him I'd give him a D-. Ozzie has been very frustrating this year.

TornLabrum
08-26-2007, 10:06 PM
What is your definition of a dynasty? Would 10 straight second place finishes qualify? If it was a choice between that scenario or one World Title and nine last place finishes, I'd take the World Title.

As for the "dynasty" option, I don't remember that being offered. I remember the poll here being an "either/or" scenario.

One other quick comment: do you consider the Sox teams of the 60's a dynasty? I don't. Yet, they finished with 90+ wins and second place many years in a row.

Dynasty: Consistently in the playoffs and several World Series appearances over at least a decade.

Domeshot17
08-26-2007, 10:18 PM
C-

He gets slack for injuries. But he is too loyal to certain players (Contreras Uribe Cintron Uribe Uribe). He runs bad lineups out there, he hits guys in the order wrong, he uses the bullpen as bad as any manager in the league, and this year he lost his team. Guys aren't playing together, poor defense, poor execution. I mean hell, all we heard all spring training was the Ozzie Guillen Grinder Ball boot camp, and we still have no idea what we are doing fundamentally. Ozzie needs to learn the coach the team he has and stop wishing for the national league team he wants.

Brian26
08-26-2007, 10:35 PM
Dynasty: Consistently in the playoffs and several World Series appearances over at least a decade.

Ok- fair enough. Sounds like the Atlanta Braves of the 90s. So let's assume the Braves didn't win the 1995 World Series. Would you take the White Sox 2005 World Series win and one other playoff appearance (2000) or Atlanta's 14 straight division titles and three or four WS appearances w/out a WS win.
I'd still take the '05 Series win (if I had to choose between the two).

Patrick134
08-26-2007, 10:38 PM
Ok- fair enough. Sounds like the Atlanta Braves of the 90s. So let's assume the Braves didn't win the 1995 World Series. Would you take the White Sox 2005 World Series win and one other playoff appearance (2000) or Atlanta's 14 straight division titles and three or four WS appearances w/out a WS win.
I'd still take the '05 Series win (if I had to choose between the two).


Amen. It's all about the world series. 40 losing seasons and one world series win is better than 40 first place finishes with no world series win.

chisoxmike
08-26-2007, 10:43 PM
I didn't think it was a very good team to start the season. I didn't think they were last place bad, but he had a ****ty bullpen to start the season, a inconsistant offense that showed its true colors last season, and aging and oft injured players.

Still, it just seemed like the Sox were completely unprepared for every game this season in terms of the opposing pitcher and some sort of game plan.

I would give him a D for this season, but really, what do I know. :dunno:

Brian26
08-26-2007, 10:47 PM
but he had a ****ty bullpen to start the season,

The bullpen was actually pretty decent to start the season though. Remember Aardsma's strikeout streak, and MacDougal and Thornton looked good. The bullpen meltdowns started in May...maybe in Detroit when Aardsma gave up that homer when we were one strike away from winning.

chisoxmike
08-26-2007, 10:52 PM
The bullpen was actually pretty decent to start the season though. Remember Aardsma's strikeout streak, and MacDougal and Thornton looked good. The bullpen meltdowns started in May...maybe in Detroit when Aardsma gave up that homer when we were one strike away from winning.

I don't know. I never thought David Aardsma and Andrew Sisco were components to a winning bullpen.

Patrick134
08-26-2007, 10:53 PM
The bullpen was actually pretty decent to start the season though. Remember Aardsma's strikeout streak, and MacDougal and Thornton looked good. The bullpen meltdowns started in May...maybe in Detroit when Aardsma gave up that homer when we were one strike away from winning.


Right. There's a myth that the season was domed from day 1. But the sox were 4 games over .500 in late May while still hitting .230 If they had just played .500 since then, they'd be about 5 games out now.

Patrick134
08-26-2007, 10:54 PM
I don't know. I never thought David Aardsma and Andrew Sisco were components to a winning bullpen.


Not many though Politte and Cotts were great components before 2005 either.

tstrike2000
08-26-2007, 11:00 PM
Ozzie is not responsible for that failure to reload. Economics is responsible for that failure -- we can't afford to bring in A-Rod, Dice-K, or Vlad Guerrero. As a middle-class team, all we can do is resign the good players we have, take gambles on guys like AJ, Dye, Erstad, etc., and hope that we get lucky again.

Ozzie isn't responsible for economics, but he is responsible for lineups, in game changes, pitching changes, pitching matchups, and being a heads up baseball manager. In those areas, he's not done a very good job this year. Yeah, he's had to deal with injuries and crappy play, but in those tough times, his flaws at times have been glaring.

Patrick134
08-26-2007, 11:02 PM
Ozzie isn't responsible for economics, but he is responsible for lineups, in game changes, pitching changes, pitching matchups, and being a heads up baseball manager. In those areas, he's not done a very good job this year. Yeah, he's had to deal with injuries and crappy play, but in those tough times, his flaws at times have been glaring.


Aside form bringing Jenks in in every relief situation this year, name a reliever who showed Ozzie he could trust him in any situation, be it lefty, righty, or ambidextrous.

WhiteSox5187
08-27-2007, 12:31 AM
C-

He gets slack for injuries. But he is too loyal to certain players (Contreras Uribe Cintron Uribe Uribe). He runs bad lineups out there, he hits guys in the order wrong, he uses the bullpen as bad as any manager in the league, and this year he lost his team. Guys aren't playing together, poor defense, poor execution. I mean hell, all we heard all spring training was the Ozzie Guillen Grinder Ball boot camp, and we still have no idea what we are doing fundamentally. Ozzie needs to learn the coach the team he has and stop wishing for the national league team he wants.
I don't like Uribe, but other than Cintron what other options do we have at short???

Grzegorz
08-27-2007, 06:08 AM
Then it means that my Grandad's lifelong love of the White Sox meant nothing. Born in 1919, died in 1985. His whole life he was a Sox fan, and I'll be the first to tell you; he loved that team. And I'll be the first to say that his love of the Sox certainly meant something to himself, and his family. That all those days and night of attending games at Comiskey with his grandsons meant nothing to them then, and didn't have a positive end on the men they became?

Yes, titles are the first reason any MLB player plays the game. And obviously, he who wins the last game of the season wins the title. But in saying that, look at how many HoF players who never even played in the World Series, and tell me that they mean nothing to the game.


The measure of a team is titles. Fans are a different story.

Viva Medias B's
08-27-2007, 07:22 AM
Ozzie gets a C from me.

soxinem1
08-27-2007, 09:54 AM
Unfortunately when teams perform like this at any level in any sport, the coach/manager is the first to blame.

Conversely, when the teams do well, the manager gets too much credit, IMO.

In this case, Guillen's experiments and moves have mostly backfired, but it is the players who are to come through and perform. It's not like he has a lot of options right now if someone is ineffective in their role on the team.

The only thing that drives me really nuts about Guillen is the lefty-lefty, righty-righty crap. I have never liked that kind of managing, and believe it is over rated in most cases.

Therefore, I give him a C+.

dickallen15
08-27-2007, 12:09 PM
The bullpen was actually pretty decent to start the season though. Remember Aardsma's strikeout streak, and MacDougal and Thornton looked good. The bullpen meltdowns started in May...maybe in Detroit when Aardsma gave up that homer when we were one strike away from winning.
Just about the time they didn't have to quote windchill factor during the games.

TDog
08-27-2007, 12:44 PM
Just about the time they didn't have to quote windchill factor during the games.

Funny, though, that the bullpen was outperforming the starters while wind-chill factors were being quoted during the games. Given that relievers had less time to warm up, you might expect the opposite. At the beginning of the season, it was Thornton who was underperforming out of the pen, and people were concerned with Jenks' velocity, especially after that dismal outing I witnessed where he failed to protect Garland's 1-0 lead in Oakland.

dickallen15
08-27-2007, 12:47 PM
Funny, though, that the bullpen was outperforming the starters while wind-chill factors were being quoted during the games. Given that relievers had less time to warm up, you might expect the opposite. At the beginning of the season, it was Thornton who was underperforming out of the pen, and people were concerned with Jenks' velocity, especially after that dismal outing I witnessed where he failed to protect Garland's 1-0 lead in Oakland.
As the game went on the colder the hitters became. It doesn't matter though, the season is 6 months long, they need to perform longer than 1 month.

WhiteSoxJunkie
08-27-2007, 01:23 PM
C

russ99
08-27-2007, 01:37 PM
Ozzie gets a B- from me, but his coaching staff gets an D, and Kenny gets a D- for assembling such a horrid team.

Hopefully this will be a learning experience for Oz. It's a lot easier to coach a winning team.

TDog
08-27-2007, 03:00 PM
As the game went on the colder the hitters became. It doesn't matter though, the season is 6 months long, they need to perform longer than 1 month.

And I can count on my left hand, using only my thumb, the number of times in my lifetime a Chicago team performed long enough to finish on top. The fact is, a lot of baseball people believed the White Sox had a very good bullpen coming into this season. The bullpen's failure isn't as simple calculating transitory wind-chill factors.

Jerko
08-27-2007, 03:31 PM
D from me. His bullpen management is beyond horrible. I know the pen sucked but he put the same guys in the same positions to fail every time. He wouldn't bring in guys fast enough (he'd wait till the other team had a guy or 2 on) and EVERY situation that these guys were asked to perform in was a pressure situation. He should have just picked a guy for the 7th, a guy for the 8th, and then Jenks. No more LRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLRLR ****. We actually pitched to Crawford this year because a lefty was on the mound with Greg ****in Norton on deck. Needless to say, like Sizemore, Hafner, and every lefty before him since game 1 of the season, Crawford came thru with a hit. It's been going on for 2 years now and we make the SAME bad moves over and over to the same people and get the same results. D easy. Game 2. Roberto Hernandez comes in. AJ greets him with a double. Gooch is asked to bunt and pops it up. You just raked the guy and you're gonna give him an out? Even if the bunt worked you had 2 guys coming up (Cintron, Pods) that didn't deliver. Awful year. I know the players sucked too but my D stands.

tstrike2000
08-27-2007, 08:31 PM
Aside form bringing Jenks in in every relief situation this year, name a reliever who showed Ozzie he could trust him in any situation, be it lefty, righty, or ambidextrous.

There's a lot more to being a manager than having a choice of crappy relievers.