PDA

View Full Version : Question About Saves


Soxfanspcu11
08-23-2007, 03:37 AM
With The Texas Rangers scoring 30 runs yesterday in the 1st game of a double-header against Baltimore, it made me think of question that I have been trying to figure out for awhile now. And of course, who better to turn to then the people here at WSI. The SMARTEST fans in the world if you ask me!

I was watching the highlights of the game on ESPN and they said that the closer or whomever was acting as the closer for that blowout was credited with the save.

What?!?!?!

I thought that a "save" was only ever an option when it was a really close game. I thought that the rule was that the tying run had to be at least On-deck for it to be a save situation??

I remember thinking the same think about a month ago when the scrubs won a blowout game by a score of like 12-2 or something. They said on the scrubs postgame show that the guy who pitched the ninth got the save. And they were making a big deal about it because it was like his first or second time ever pitching at the major league level and it was his first save.

How can this be?!?!?!?

All the time we hear how a game and situation is a "No-Save" situation. And I always thought that you could not get a save unless the situation was how I described above.

What am I missing here?? Are there 2 different kinds of "saves" or something??

I know that this sounds like a moronic question, but I have been watching baseball all my life and this is the first time that I have been confused about a rule.

Obviously, I feel stupid for asking, because I should know. And truth be told, I thought that I DID know! But I guess all this time I was wrong?

Can someone explain this please??

What am I missing here?

Frater Perdurabo
08-23-2007, 07:30 AM
By MLB rules, a pitcher can be credited with a save if he pitches the last three innings of a win. This kind of save is exceedingly rare nowadays. (Not as rare as a 30-run outburst, though!) :)

eriqjaffe
08-23-2007, 10:06 AM
Here's the official save rule, per mlb.com:

Rule 10.20 in the Official Rule Book states:
Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions:
(1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and
(2) He is not the winning pitcher; and
(3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
- (a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or
- (b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces; or
- (c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game.

jabrch
08-23-2007, 10:58 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2007_08_22_texmlb_balmlb_1&c_id=mlb

Now please explain to me how a pitcher "saved" this game?

SBSoxFan
08-23-2007, 11:21 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2007_08_22_texmlb_balmlb_1&c_id=mlb

Now please explain to me how a pitcher "saved" this game?

He satisfied criteria 1, 2, and 3c above. Stupid, but them's the rules. :(:

Theoretically, had he not pitched "effectively", but finished the game nonetheless, the official scorer could have withheld the save.

itsnotrequired
08-23-2007, 11:23 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2007_08_22_texmlb_balmlb_1&c_id=mlb

Now please explain to me how a pitcher "saved" this game?

What is to explain? He met the requirements for a save. It is certainly not a "normal" save but a save nonetheless. The save rule is broken and needs fixing!

It is sort of like being able to have a higher AVE than OBP. It doesn't really make sense but the way the rules are laid out, it is possible.

jabrch
08-23-2007, 11:24 AM
I understand why he qualified per the rule...that wasn't my point.

itsnotrequired
08-23-2007, 11:27 AM
I understand why he qualified per the rule...that wasn't my point.

Then what is your point?

SBSoxFan
08-23-2007, 11:33 AM
Then what is your point?

:DJ
"Explain yourself, jabrch."

jabrch
08-23-2007, 11:33 AM
Then what is your point?

nothing was "saved"....the definition of a save still sucks.

voodoochile
08-23-2007, 11:36 AM
The only way to change it might be to add a slaughter rule. Like if a team is up by 10 runs when the reliever enters they cannot get a save, but the question becomes where do you draw the line?

Should a pitcher get a save if they come in with their team winning 10-3 and pitches the last 3 innings?

What if their team puts another 10 runs on the board in the final 3 innings and makes the final score 20-3?

When the reliever entered this game the team was up 14-3. He held the Orioles to zero runs over the final three innings while the Rangers went on a tear.

Doesn't seem fair to dock the picther because the offense went nuts...

itsnotrequired
08-23-2007, 11:52 AM
nothing was "saved"....the definition of a save still sucks.

BP was right! Who will deliver us from these Crimes against Humanity! The save has lost all integrity!

Daver was correct when he said the save is a meaningless stat.

Huisj
08-23-2007, 01:54 PM
BP was right! Who will deliver us from these Crimes against Humanity! The save has lost all integrity!

Daver was correct when he said the save is a meaningless stat.

I agree. There was some article somewhere that had a stat about the percentage of time a team scores a run in an inning and also broke that down into the percentage of time a team scores two or three or more runs in an inning. I don't remember the percentages, but the idea was that with the 3-run lead 1-inning saves that happen so much, it's easy for a very mediocre pitcher to rack up a lot of saves if the situations are right.

Evidence that the rule is dumb? Just look at the closers of the top two teams in the AL central. They are 2nd and 4th in the AL in saves while being basically mediocre pitchers.

TDog
08-23-2007, 06:32 PM
Is it fair to give a pitcher a win if his team scores 30 runs? If a pitcher pitches 4 innings for a save, he has pitched an inning less than the starter getting the win, or possibly more than a reliever who got the win.

When Littleton entered the game, the lead was only 11. If he had given up 6, he probably wouldn't have been given a save because the scorer would have had the discretion to deny him.

If Matt Thornton gets comes in to strike out an opponent to end the eighth inning and leave the bases loaded to preserve a 1-run lead for the Sox, and the Sox score 10 runs in the bottom of the inning, and Thornton stays in the game to get three outs in the ninth, he would save a game with an 11-run differential. If Thornton gave up 10 runs in the ninth and still finished the game, he would get a save.

That's the way the save rule works. You can find unfair wins and unfair losses if you look hard enough. There are deceptive ERAs. Stats only tell you so much. In isolation they rarely tell you how good a player or what he has accomplished.

I have more problem with Borowski's save today than I do with Littleton's save yesterday. Before I would change the rule to credit a save for a pitcher protecting the lead for the final three innings, I would eliminate the 3-outs-to-protect-a-3-run-lead save.

Soxfanspcu11
09-06-2007, 03:49 AM
I really appreciate all the responses to my question, thanks to everyone!

But I have another question about it (well, not "another", I asked it in the original post, but I don't think that there was ever really a clear answer given.)

And it is this, -So why do announcers and other people say that, "It was a No-Save situation"? What does that mean??

I mean, if you can technically get a save when you have a 10 run or more lead, what possibly could constitute a "No-Save" situation?

I'm not imagining(sp?) this am I?? I mean, I have heard people say that it was a "No-Save" situation right?

God, I know that this sounds sooooo stupid, and like I said in the original post, I really should know this, but I'm really having trouble understanding it!!!

All of the responses have been great and they really have cleared up a lot for me, but that one question still remains! Thoughts?? Help???:?::(:

chaerulez
09-06-2007, 09:28 AM
The save is a flawed stat. If your team is up 5-2 and you come in the bottom of the 9th and give up 2 runs, should you get a positive stat out of it? Or what is the extra reward for pitching 1 2/3 innings in a 4-3 game?

Another odd rule involving relievers is if the starting pitcher for whatever reason leaves the game before he can get a win (before pitching 5 innings) with his team in the lead, I always thought the win transfers over to the reliever that came in for the starter. I didn't know until a couple years ago the official scorer can give the win to the reliever he felt pitched the best. This is all assuming the lead is kept intact at all times of course.

itsnotrequired
09-06-2007, 09:33 AM
I really appreciate all the responses to my question, thanks to everyone!

But I have another question about it (well, not "another", I asked it in the original post, but I don't think that there was ever really a clear answer given.)

And it is this, -So why do announcers and other people say that, "It was a No-Save situation"? What does that mean??

I mean, if you can technically get a save when you have a 10 run or more lead, what possibly could constitute a "No-Save" situation?

I'm not imagining(sp?) this am I?? I mean, I have heard people say that it was a "No-Save" situation right?

God, I know that this sounds sooooo stupid, and like I said in the original post, I really should know this, but I'm really having trouble understanding it!!!

All of the responses have been great and they really have cleared up a lot for me, but that one question still remains! Thoughts?? Help???:?::(:

If a pitcher pitches in a situation that does not meet the minimum requirements set forth to qualify for a save, then it is a no-save situataion.

Pretty straight-forward.

:dunno:

voodoochile
09-06-2007, 10:00 AM
Examples of non-save situations:

Enter a game in the 8th or 9th inning with a 4 run lead and no one on base.

Enter a game in the 8th or 9th inning with the bases loaded and a 6 run lead.

The three inning save is the only one that doesn't have a maximum lead requirement.

SBSoxFan
09-06-2007, 10:26 AM
And Joe Borowski can become the first reliever in history to lead a league in saves while having an ERA over 5.

Soxfanspcu11
09-07-2007, 04:27 AM
Examples of non-save situations:

Enter a game in the 8th or 9th inning with a 4 run lead and no one on base.

Enter a game in the 8th or 9th inning with the bases loaded and a 6 run lead.

The three inning save is the only one that doesn't have a maximum lead requirement.

It is "with a 4 run or 6 run lead or MORE" right?

Geez, now I am all confused again. It brings me back to my original question. I mean, your saying that it is a "No-save" situation if it is a 4 run lead and no one on base, or a 6 run lead with the bases loaded.

So how does a pitcher get a save when his team is up 12-2?

I know that other posts in this thread have addressed that, but I am having trouble for some reason figuring out the difference. (Trust me, I feel like an idiot, so no one needs to start calling me one!:redface:)

I mean, VOODOO, I get what you are saying in your explaination, and it makes sense, infact I thought that that was how it worked! And that part I get. But I'm still having trouble understanding how a pitcher can get a "save" when he has a 10 run lead. I thought that the details/circumstances that you (Voodoo) gave were the only ways that saves could be accomplished.:?:

I dunno, I am probably making no sense. It is probably impossible to understand the question that I am asking. I'm trying to describe my confusion the best way that I can, but...........ARGH!!!!!:angry:

I know that you guys are trying to help me out here, and I really do appreciate it, but I am still not understanding these 2 main points. Basically, how can there be something called a "No-Save Situation", yet a pitcher still gets a save in a 12-2 game? I mean, it seems like there should be no such thing as a "No-Save" situation if you can still get a save in a 12-2 game!

Was that a better explaination of my confusion? If not, don't worry about it, it's not the end of the world if I can't figure this out. But seriously, thank you to everyone for trying to help me out here. It's not you guys fault that I am a Grade A Moron.:(::mad:

voodoochile
09-07-2007, 08:06 AM
If a relief pitcher enters the game with a lead and pitches the final three innings and doesn't allow the other team to tie or take the lead it doesn't matter what the score was when they entered the game.

I honestly don't know how I can clarify it more simply read the rules. It's all about how big the lead is and whether the tying run is on deck, at bat or on base.

EXCEPT for the 3 inning save in which case the lead doesn't matter. That's why I specified the 8th and 9th inning in the above examples.

For example: No pitcher can ever earn a save if they enter the game in the 8th inning or later with a 6 run lead. The tying run is still in the dugout so it's a non-save situation. So if the score was 12-2 when Joe Blow comes on in relief in the 8th inning he cannot earn a save, period. However, if Joe Blow comes on in relief to start the 7th inning (or earlier) with a 12-2 lead he can still earn a save if he pitches all three (or more) of the final innings and doesn't let the other team tie the game.

Hope that makes it clearer.

pierzynski07
09-07-2007, 06:17 PM
It is "with a 4 run or 6 run lead or MORE" right?

Geez, now I am all confused again. It brings me back to my original question. I mean, your saying that it is a "No-save" situation if it is a 4 run lead and no one on base, or a 6 run lead with the bases loaded.

So how does a pitcher get a save when his team is up 12-2?

I know that other posts in this thread have addressed that, but I am having trouble for some reason figuring out the difference. (Trust me, I feel like an idiot, so no one needs to start calling me one!:redface:)

I mean, VOODOO, I get what you are saying in your explaination, and it makes sense, infact I thought that that was how it worked! And that part I get. But I'm still having trouble understanding how a pitcher can get a "save" when he has a 10 run lead. I thought that the details/circumstances that you (Voodoo) gave were the only ways that saves could be accomplished.:?:

I dunno, I am probably making no sense. It is probably impossible to understand the question that I am asking. I'm trying to describe my confusion the best way that I can, but...........ARGH!!!!!:angry:

I know that you guys are trying to help me out here, and I really do appreciate it, but I am still not understanding these 2 main points. Basically, how can there be something called a "No-Save Situation", yet a pitcher still gets a save in a 12-2 game? I mean, it seems like there should be no such thing as a "No-Save" situation if you can still get a save in a 12-2 game!

Was that a better explaination of my confusion? If not, don't worry about it, it's not the end of the world if I can't figure this out. But seriously, thank you to everyone for trying to help me out here. It's not you guys fault that I am a Grade A Moron.:(::mad:

Once again:
Rule 10.20 in the Official Rule Book states:
Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions:
(1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and
(2) He is not the winning pitcher; and
(3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
- (a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or
- (b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces; or
- (c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game.