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mcfish
08-21-2007, 12:00 PM
Who do you honestly think will be the starting 3B for the Sox on opening day next year. Not what you hope happens or what you would do, what do you think will really happen with Crede/Fields?

I ask because I find it surprising that people here seem to really think that Crede is going to be on the team next year. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but my opinion is that I just don't see any possibility of the Sox bringing Crede back for the $$ he will command even with health issues when they have a perfectly good league minimum replacement for him available. (please no "Crede > Fields" - I'm not saying Fields is as good as Crede in terms of pure ability, just that he would be perfectly fine as our '08 starting 3B.) The money saved would come in very handy when looking for a replacement SS or OF or pitching help.

getonbckthr
08-21-2007, 12:03 PM
I dont think this question can be answered. I say if Crede is healthy he has 3rd and Fields has LF. If not Fields takes 3rd and we need a LF'r.

voodoochile
08-21-2007, 12:07 PM
I expect to see Owens, Fields and Richar ALL starting next year...

soxfan13
08-21-2007, 12:14 PM
I dont think this question can be answered. I say if Crede is healthy he has 3rd and Fields has LF. If not Fields takes 3rd and we need a LF'r.

From my understanding isnt there a deadline for the Sox to pick up the option on the contract. Thought it was sometime in November. Reports are Crede cant start baseball activities until December. That being said I honestly dont see the Sox picking up his option if they dont know if his back will be good.

spiffie
08-21-2007, 12:18 PM
Unless Joe Crede himself says "I won't be healthy in 2008" I don't see the Sox not giving him the 3B job at the start of the season. I'm sure the way they see it is that if he works out they have him and stick Fields elsewhere, if not they have Fields ready. The Sox have a history of gambling on guys with health issues (Dye, Erstad, Pods come to mind) and I'd be shocked if they didn't do this here.

palehozenychicty
08-21-2007, 12:20 PM
I would be stunned if Crede is starting at third next year. Not for that option price. Before his back imploded, he was an inconsistent hitter to begin with, save for last year. Now if we can mold the two into Josh Crede, then we're in business!

soxfan13
08-21-2007, 12:27 PM
Unless Joe Crede himself says "I won't be healthy in 2008" I don't see the Sox not giving him the 3B job at the start of the season. I'm sure the way they see it is that if he works out they have him and stick Fields elsewhere, if not they have Fields ready. The Sox have a history of gambling on guys with health issues (Dye, Erstad, Pods come to mind) and I'd be shocked if they didn't do this here.

The big difference is they knew they would be able to come in and play and hopefully not get hurt again. Crede they do not know if he will be able to play next year.

JohnTucker0814
08-21-2007, 12:34 PM
I would be stunned if Crede is starting at third next year. Not for that option price. Before his back imploded, he was an inconsistent hitter to begin with, save for last year. Now if we can mold the two into Josh Crede, then we're in business!

Do the Sox hold an option on Joe Crede or is he arbitration eligable? I'm sure they will not just let Crede walk.

voodoochile
08-21-2007, 12:39 PM
Do the Sox hold an option on Joe Crede or is he arbitration eligable? I'm sure they will not just let Crede walk.

He signed a one year deal in January to avoid arbitration. It was $4.9M. The Sox own his rights for another year and can go all the way to arbitration again, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just let him go based on the way Fields has performed this year.

That would free up money to sign players at the more pressing CF and SS positions and let Owens/Sweeney/Anderson duke it out for LF.

The Immigrant
08-21-2007, 12:41 PM
Do the Sox hold an option on Joe Crede or is he arbitration eligable? I'm sure they will not just let Crede walk.

The latter - he is arbitration eligible for one more year. The Sox have until December 1, I believe, to offer him arbitration. I also believe that once he is signed to another 1-year contract (either before or as a result of arbitration), he can be traded by the Sox to any team.

If the Sox do not offer him arbitration, he will become a free agent and the Sox will receive no compensation.

Mickster
08-21-2007, 12:45 PM
He signed a one year deal in January to avoid arbitration. It was $4.9M. The Sox own his rights for another year and can go all the way to arbitration again, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just let him go based on the way Fields has performed this year.

That would free up money to sign players at the more pressing CF and SS positions and let Owens/Sweeney/Anderson duke it out for LF.

I respectfully disagree. There is no way in hell that the Sox let Crede walk without any compensation because they declined to offer him arbitration. Crede can be a valuable trading commodity this off-season or can start the year at 3B and show that he is healthy and can be traded earlier in 2008 if necessary. Hell, I could even see Crede being showcased in spring training and being traded before opening day.

The only scenario that I can not envision is Crede being let go with no compensation.

voodoochile
08-21-2007, 12:47 PM
I respectfully disagree. There is no way in hell that the Sox let Crede walk without any compensation because they declined to offer him arbitration. Crede can be a valuable trading commodity this off-season or can start the year at 3B and show that he is healthy and can be traded earlier in 2008 if necessary. Hell, I could even see Crede being showcased in sprint training and being traded before opening day.

The only scenario that I can not envision is Crede being let go with no compensation.

It would depend on his back. If the Sox aren't comfortable with the progress he has made by the arb deadline, they might have to simply walk away instead of risking the $5M. If they sign him and can't trade him, they are stuck eating the money and they don't have THAT much to throw around. With the development of Fields, they may feel it is best to simply walk away as they did with Magglio.

Mickster
08-21-2007, 12:54 PM
It would depend on his back. If the Sox aren't comfortable with the progress he has made by the arb deadline, they might have to simply walk away instead of risking the $5M. If they sign him and can't trade him, they are stuck eating the money and they don't have THAT much to throw around. With the development of Fields, they may feel it is best to simply walk away as they did with Magglio.

The big difference between Magglio and Crede is $$$$. Maggs would have commanded 2.5x what Crede will during arbitration. It is much less risk for the Sox especially because of Fields.

If the Sox would have offered Maggs arbitration, he would have signed a 1 year deal and the Sox would not have been able to sign an adequate replacement if he went down or turned out not to be healthy as was the case in 2005. With Crede, we always have Fields ready to step in and fill the spot. Fields could easily start the season in LF and slot to 3rd if Crede is traded or still injured. Crede is worth the $5M risk, Maggs was not imho.

russ99
08-21-2007, 12:59 PM
Unless Joe Crede himself says "I won't be healthy in 2008" I don't see the Sox not giving him the 3B job at the start of the season. I'm sure the way they see it is that if he works out they have him and stick Fields elsewhere, if not they have Fields ready. The Sox have a history of gambling on guys with health issues (Dye, Erstad, Pods come to mind) and I'd be shocked if they didn't do this here.

And the Sox have a really bad history on paying guys market value when coming off major injuries (Thomas, Ordonez) and Joe's continued return to health is a pretty big if.

All Joe's surgery did was drain fluid to ease pressure on a nerve. His back problems haven't miraculously gone away and could likely flare up again in game situations next season. And then there's the Boras problems, where he's posturing for Joe's impending FA next year and isn't being straight on Joe's rehab and condition.

I'd rather see the Sox spend the 8-10 million (that Crede will get in arb) for 2008 somewhere else and hire someone like Ventura to work with Fields on his defense in the offseason.

He's had a great run for the Sox, but I think it's time that Crede steps aside for Fields's emergence.

Jaffar
08-21-2007, 01:00 PM
Are the White Sox going to be able to check out Crede's back and see all of his medical records before being able to make the decision?

russ99
08-21-2007, 01:02 PM
Are the White Sox going to be able to check out Crede's back and see all of his medical records before being able to make the decision?

You'd think so, but you'll have to ask Mr. Boras that.

But he's a player under contract and not a visiting FA, so I'd think the Sox doctors should have a pretty good idea about his condition by the end of the season. My uneducated opinion is that it's a risk to offer arb in his case, but it's up to Kenny to get more info and decide if it's a risk he (and Jerry) are willing to take for that amount of salary.

Another issue is the overall payroll budget. With Buehrle and Dye's signings, and the possible FAs Kenny wants to go after it's possible the Sox may have to cut back on a few players to stay under or slightly over budget, with Crede and Garland at the top of the list to cut/deal.

esbrechtel
08-21-2007, 01:08 PM
Crede has to start so we can if necessary trade him for something otherwise we are giving away a potential GG/Clutch hitting playoff experience 3B for a AA pitcher NO THANKS...

Hitmen77
08-21-2007, 01:29 PM
I'd rather see the Sox spend the 8-10 million (that Crede will get in arb) for 2008 somewhere else and hire someone like Ventura to work with Fields on his defense in the offseason.


I doubt Joe would get an arbitration ruling that doubles his salary after he spent most of the season on the DL and still is a risk for not making a full recovery.

voodoochile
08-21-2007, 01:56 PM
I doubt Joe would get an arbitration ruling that doubles his salary after he spent most of the season on the DL and still is a risk for not making a full recovery.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the guys who decide these arbitration cases are allowed to factor in injury concerns if the player in question is healthy at the time of the case appearing.

The Sox would have to offer at minimum $4.1M. Crede could ask for anything above that, but the decision can only be one offer or the other, they cannot split the difference. It's why most cases get decided before arbitration because it's safer for both sides to find a middle point.

If Crede is healthy or at least claims to be 100% then they could in theory ask for $8-10M which would be a solid price for a guy who has put up his numbers and plays 3B. That's what the decision comes down to. In addition the arbitrator is not bound by strictly baseball salaries. If they feel there is an example from another sport that represents the aspects of the case, they can use it as precedent for their decision. Seeing as Crede has little "star power" I doubt this will make a big impact on the decision, but the Sox probably cannot afford to let it go all the way through the process for fear they could get stuck with a big single year contract and Crede's back goes out early in the season. They might not even be able to get insurance to cover the contract for back related disability based on the pre-existing condition.

If Crede can claim he is healthy and get a doctor to back that assessment up the Sox could end up on the hook for a substantial chunk of money and that would in turn hinder their attempts to sign the players at the positions they need more desperately. I doubt they are simply crossing their fingers and hoping Fields can play LF adequately even though many of us feel it's a possibility. If they'd rather have a sure thing in CF and at SS then look for Crede to be given his walking papers...

Steelrod
08-21-2007, 02:05 PM
I respectfully disagree. There is no way in hell that the Sox let Crede walk without any compensation because they declined to offer him arbitration. Crede can be a valuable trading commodity this off-season or can start the year at 3B and show that he is healthy and can be traded earlier in 2008 if necessary. Hell, I could even see Crede being showcased in spring training and being traded before opening day.

The only scenario that I can not envision is Crede being let go with no compensation.
I can easily see that happen. To offer him 6 million and not even know if he can walk, let alone play. According to the papers, the Sox have not been able to speak to him or his agent in over a month. Previous experience tells me that Boras will not allow a physical prior to 12/1.
6 million may not be much to you, but it will go a long way to fill a spot!

WhiteSox5187
08-21-2007, 02:05 PM
I think it's going to be Crede simply because we need to play him in order to raise his trade value.

russ99
08-21-2007, 02:06 PM
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the guys who decide these arbitration cases are allowed to factor in injury concerns if the player in question is healthy at the time of the case appearing.

The Sox would have to offer at minimum $4.1M. Crede could ask for anything above that, but the decision can only be one offer or the other, they cannot split the difference. It's why most cases get decided before arbitration because it's safer for both sides to find a middle point.

If Crede is healthy or at least claims to be 100% then they could in theory ask for $8-10M which would be a solid price for a guy who has put up his numbers and plays 3B. That's what the decision comes down to. In addition the arbitrator is not bound by strictly baseball salaries. If they feel there is an example from another sport that represents the aspects of the case, they can use it as precedent for their decision. Seeing as Crede has little "star power" I doubt this will make a big impact on the decision, but the Sox probably cannot afford to let it go all the way through the process for fear they could get stuck with a big single year contract and Crede's back goes out early in the season. They might not even be able to get insurance to cover the contract for back related disability based on the pre-existing condition.

If Crede can claim he is healthy and get a doctor to back that assessment up the Sox could end up on the hook for a substantial chunk of money and that would in turn hinder their attempts to sign the players at the positions they need more desperately. I doubt they are simply crossing their fingers and hoping Fields can play LF adequately even though many of us feel it's a possibility. If they'd rather have a sure thing in CF and at SS then look for Crede to be given his walking papers...

I think Joe would have a strong case to justify his offer based on his numbers the last two seasons when he was healthy.

But who's to know what Boras would do in this case. Remember, he sent Magglio to Austria to see a doctor who could do something with his injury to ensure a good FA offer. I'm sure he could produce a medical "expert" if the money's right.

As I said, Kenny's going to have to weigh the risk. On one hand the Sox could non-tender Crede and lose any return they could get in a deal (if healthy), and on the other the Sox would have a chronically injured player who might not be able to play, with a big salary and also have to deal with Boras' shenanigans in arb and in Crede's upcoming FA.

I know what I'd do, but I'm not sure what Kenny's gonna do...

Steelrod
08-21-2007, 02:33 PM
If Crede is healthy or at least claims to be 100% then they could in theory ask for $8-10M which would be a solid price for a guy who has put up his numbers and plays 3B. That's what the decision comes down to. In addition the arbitrator is not bound by strictly baseball salaries. If they feel there is an example from another sport that represents the aspects of the case, they can use it as precedent for their decision. Seeing as Crede has little "star power" I doubt this will make a big impact on the decision, but the Sox probably cannot afford to let it go all the way through the process for fear they could get stuck with a big single year contract and Crede's back goes out early in the season. They might not even be able to get insurance to cover the contract for back related disability based on the pre-existing condition.

You can only insure a multi-year contract and the player must be out a full year before it kicks in!

wilburaga
08-21-2007, 02:57 PM
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the guys who decide these arbitration cases are allowed to factor in injury concerns if the player in question is healthy at the time of the case appearing.

The Sox would have to offer at minimum $4.1M. Crede could ask for anything above that, but the decision can only be one offer or the other, they cannot split the difference. It's why most cases get decided before arbitration because it's safer for both sides to find a middle point.

If Crede is healthy or at least claims to be 100% then they could in theory ask for $8-10M which would be a solid price for a guy who has put up his numbers and plays 3B. That's what the decision comes down to. In addition the arbitrator is not bound by strictly baseball salaries. If they feel there is an example from another sport that represents the aspects of the case, they can use it as precedent for their decision. Seeing as Crede has little "star power" I doubt this will make a big impact on the decision, but the Sox probably cannot afford to let it go all the way through the process for fear they could get stuck with a big single year contract and Crede's back goes out early in the season. They might not even be able to get insurance to cover the contract for back related disability based on the pre-existing condition.

If Crede can claim he is healthy and get a doctor to back that assessment up the Sox could end up on the hook for a substantial chunk of money and that would in turn hinder their attempts to sign the players at the positions they need more desperately. I doubt they are simply crossing their fingers and hoping Fields can play LF adequately even though many of us feel it's a possibility. If they'd rather have a sure thing in CF and at SS then look for Crede to be given his walking papers...

That's an interesting point about the arbitrators factoring in injury concerns in their decisions, and I don't know the answer to it. But I'll bet that the Sox and Boras will avoid arbitration since there will be so much uncertainty concerning Joe's status and neither side will want to take a big hit in arbitration.

Once Boras has the hammer, as he will next year, we can expect him to wield it in his customary style. But he really doesn't have it yet, and the Sox have been successful recently in avoiding arbitration even with Boras clients.

W

mcfish
08-21-2007, 03:56 PM
With Crede, we always have Fields ready to step in and fill the spot. Fields could easily start the season in LF and slot to 3rd if Crede is traded or still injured. Crede is worth the $5M risk, Maggs was not imho.Who plays LF when Crede goes down again and Fields is slotted into 3B?

oeo
08-21-2007, 03:58 PM
I dont think this question can be answered. I say if Crede is healthy he has 3rd and Fields has LF. If not Fields takes 3rd and we need a LF'r.

I think he would have already been moved to left if he was going to play it next year. If not by now, it would have to come soon. I know he can play winter ball, but we all know how that turned out last year. If he's going to be playing left next year, there's no reason he shouldn't be playing it right now.

There was a comment in a Trib article (I think), that said Kenny put moving Fields to left 'on hold' because he's been impressed. Crede may have played his last game as a Sox.

voodoochile
08-21-2007, 04:26 PM
That's an interesting point about the arbitrators factoring in injury concerns in their decisions, and I don't know the answer to it. But I'll bet that the Sox and Boras will avoid arbitration since there will be so much uncertainty concerning Joe's status and neither side will want to take a big hit in arbitration.

Once Boras has the hammer, as he will next year, we can expect him to wield it in his customary style. But he really doesn't have it yet, and the Sox have been successful recently in avoiding arbitration even with Boras clients.

W

Boras has to get Crede a big money, long-term contract ASAP. He really cannot afford to risk letting Joe play a single year contract and reinjuring his back. At the present the Sox have the power of being able to force a one year contract but that comes with the risk of having Joe go down.

I doubt Boras will agree to a 1-year contract pre-hearing unless it is close to what he feels Crede deserves. No way he allows the Sox to say, "we'll give him the same deal as last year and if he's healthy discuss long-term deal then."

I figure either way 2008 is Joe's last year with the team because if the case goes all the way, it will engender a lot of bad blood and lower the chances Joe will re-up with the Sox when the time comes. Obviously, if the Sox beat all other offers that would be the determining factor, but if Joe is healthy next season he is going to command a lot of money on the FA market as one of the premiere 3B in the game. If the Sox do manage to sign him to a one year deal for reasonable money (yeah, right) I expect them to work hard on trading him as soon as they can. That might mean Boras will ask for a no-trade clause for the single year contract and that in turn would probably be a deal breaker.

Any way you slice it, it's not going to be a happy decision by either party...

ode to veeck
08-21-2007, 04:29 PM
I figure either way 2008 is Joe's last year with the team because if the case goes all the way, it will engender a lot of bad blood and lower the chances
<...>
Any way you slice it, it's not going to be a happy decision by either party...

Say it ain't so Joe!

spiffie
08-21-2007, 04:38 PM
Boras has to get Crede a big money, long-term contract ASAP. He really cannot afford to risk letting Joe play a single year contract and reinjuring his back. At the present the Sox have the power of being able to force a one year contract but that comes with the risk of having Joe go down.

I doubt Boras will agree to a 1-year contract pre-hearing unless it is close to what he feels Crede deserves. No way he allows the Sox to say, "we'll give him the same deal as last year and if he's healthy discuss long-term deal then."

I figure either way 2008 is Joe's last year with the team because if the case goes all the way, it will engender a lot of bad blood and lower the chances Joe will re-up with the Sox when the time comes. Obviously, if the Sox beat all other offers that would be the determining factor, but if Joe is healthy next season he is going to command a lot of money on the FA market as one of the premiere 3B in the game. If the Sox do manage to sign him to a one year deal for reasonable money (yeah, right) I expect them to work hard on trading him as soon as they can. That might mean Boras will ask for a no-trade clause for the single year contract and that in turn would probably be a deal breaker.

Any way you slice it, it's not going to be a happy decision by either party...
But I thought Joe was never going to let Boras come between he and the White Sox and that he would fire Boras if there was any possibility that he might make it harder for Joe to be a White Sox player until he retires.

voodoochile
08-21-2007, 04:42 PM
But I thought Joe was never going to let Boras come between he and the White Sox and that he would fire Boras if there was any possibility that he might make it harder for Joe to be a White Sox player until he retires.


Weirder things have happened, and I'm not inside the negotiations nor do I have KW's cell phone number (not even when I'm in the airport) or a crystal ball.

I just don't like the way things are shaping up at present. To me it has Magglio written all over it and the Sox have bigger needs to fill than 3B right now. Not saying I'm correct, but the way things are going, I just don't see things going well. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Boras did the same thing with Joe that he did with Magglio and refused to let the Sox doctors examine Joe before the deadline hoping to force the Sox to non-tender him.

chisoxfanatic
08-21-2007, 05:39 PM
As long as his back surgery went well, I think Crede will be back next year. I know for sure that I'd rather Crede play simply for his defense. Fields is in need of working on that before he should be considered the top starter.

voodoochile
08-21-2007, 05:53 PM
As long as his back surgery went well, I think Crede will be back next year. I know for sure that I'd rather Crede play simply for his defense. Fields is in need of working on that before he should be considered the top starter.

I could live with Fields' glove at 3B because he looks like he is going to outhit Crede by a ton once he really gets comfortable. This kid just puts the bat on the ball and when he does it jumps.

Project his rookie season numbers to a full year and you're looking at almost 40 HR. Yeah, he has struckout a lot, but that should decrease as he gets settled in. This kid can hit...

Daver
08-21-2007, 06:01 PM
I could live with Fields' glove at 3B because he looks like he is going to outhit Crede by a ton once he really gets comfortable. This kid just puts the bat on the ball and when he does it jumps.

Project his rookie season numbers to a full year and you're looking at almost 40 HR. Yeah, he has struckout a lot, but that should decrease as he gets settled in. This kid can hit...

How has Crede's power been affected from playing with a bad back for three season? You need to answer that question before giving the nod to a not so hot defensive Fields.

kobo
08-21-2007, 06:04 PM
As much as I like Joe I don't see him in a White Sox uniform next season. As pointed out by a few others in this thread, there are bigger needs for this team right now than 3B. The Sox have an option at 3rd next year with Fields, it would be beneficial to the team to shore up a few other positions (SS and CF) rather than spending $4-$6 million on Crede and then having to wonder if he is going to make it through the entire season without getting hurt. At this stage I just don't see the Sox taking the gamble on Crede with the way Fields has performed and Crede's back problems.

Frater Perdurabo
08-21-2007, 06:15 PM
How has Crede's power been affected from playing with a bad back for three season? You need to answer that question before giving the nod to a not so hot defensive Fields.

I agree. I think Crede's bad back caused (and probably will cause) pain, but didn't prevent him from hitting for power or from being an excellent fielder. As long as Crede can continue to perform the way he performed before surgery, the Sox should keep him. (In that scenario, Fields could be a great "super sub;" he could DH against lefties, give Crede some games off at third against RHP, give Paulie some games off, play a few games in left, and pinch hit.)

I have a hunch that the back pain might have caused Crede's swing to get long (swinging more with his arms and less with his core). Do you think that's possible, Daver?

misty60481
08-21-2007, 06:27 PM
KW promised Mark B. & Paulie he would try to win again in 08, he has to have both there bats in line-up for that. Fields can surely play decent LF if a 250# bulldozer Carlos Lee can. We could rotate Pods and Erstead in CF to lessen chances of injury. Then our only weaknesses are 2nd base and SS. If we still had Mack we could rotate him and Cintron at 3rd and Fields could be out there now. The sooner we get him in regular position the better.

UnionJack
08-21-2007, 06:28 PM
I would like to see a healthy Crede back next year, but I think his asking price will be too high and his health is not guaranteed. My vote is that we will see Fields.

WhiteSox5187
08-21-2007, 06:39 PM
KW promised Mark B. & Paulie he would try to win again in 08, he has to have both there bats in line-up for that. Fields can surely play decent LF if a 250# bulldozer Carlos Lee can. We could rotate Pods and Erstead in CF to lessen chances of injury. Then our only weaknesses are 2nd base and SS. If we still had Mack we could rotate him and Cintron at 3rd and Fields could be out there now. The sooner we get him in regular position the better.
Having a Pods and Erstad rotation in CF is not going to help us win in 2008.

mjmcend
08-21-2007, 06:41 PM
How has Crede's power been affected from playing with a bad back for three season? You need to answer that question before giving the nod to a not so hot defensive Fields.

The more important question is how much will Crede's back limit his power (and playing time) in the future.

skottyj242
08-21-2007, 06:59 PM
I am for Crede at third and Fields in left.

Daver
08-21-2007, 07:16 PM
I am for Crede at third and Fields in left.

How does putting a third baseman in left make this team better defensively?

JB98
08-21-2007, 07:45 PM
I would support Crede's return. I'd like to see Fields used in a backup role. He can DH against lefties and start at 3B at couple times a week to keep JC healthy over a long season. This way, Fields would still start about four games a week and continue to develop as a player.

kevin57
08-22-2007, 09:34 AM
I'm hesitant about Fields at 3B. I like his offensive potential and his glove is adequate and likely to improve, but he's no Joe Crede. At the same time, Crede would have to cut the Sox a huge hometown discount for management to pony up the kind of money that BorASS would extort. And that ain't gonna happen.

cws05champ
08-22-2007, 11:43 AM
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the guys who decide these arbitration cases are allowed to factor in injury concerns if the player in question is healthy at the time of the case appearing.

The Sox would have to offer at minimum $4.1M. Crede could ask for anything above that, but the decision can only be one offer or the other, they cannot split the difference. It's why most cases get decided before arbitration because it's safer for both sides to find a middle point.

If Crede is healthy or at least claims to be 100% then they could in theory ask for $8-10M which would be a solid price for a guy who has put up his numbers and plays 3B. That's what the decision comes down to. In addition the arbitrator is not bound by strictly baseball salaries. If they feel there is an example from another sport that represents the aspects of the case, they can use it as precedent for their decision. Seeing as Crede has little "star power" I doubt this will make a big impact on the decision, but the Sox probably cannot afford to let it go all the way through the process for fear they could get stuck with a big single year contract and Crede's back goes out early in the season. They might not even be able to get insurance to cover the contract for back related disability based on the pre-existing condition.

If Crede can claim he is healthy and get a doctor to back that assessment up the Sox could end up on the hook for a substantial chunk of money and that would in turn hinder their attempts to sign the players at the positions they need more desperately. I doubt they are simply crossing their fingers and hoping Fields can play LF adequately even though many of us feel it's a possibility. If they'd rather have a sure thing in CF and at SS then look for Crede to be given his walking papers...

If the arbitrators can not take into account injuries then all they have to go on is performance and #'s. And by Joe's #'s from this year (.216, 4HR, 22 RBI), how could any arbitraitor give Crede 8-10 mil? I really don't think Crede has leverage in any aribitration case. Further more, I don't think there will be that much bad blood from this years arb negotiations. All the Sox have to say is, we did not have him for much of the last season and his performance wasn't up to standards. If Boras wants to say his performance suffered because of the injury, that's fine, but now the ARE interjecting injuries into the conversation.

I think the Sox will offer him Arbitration...they can not afford to lose him for nothing.

JermaineDye05
08-22-2007, 11:47 AM
Crede will be the starting 3B, because the Sox need to show that he is in fact healthy. They can't move him until his health has been proven. Later on in the season Crede will be traded and Fields will be the starting 3B.

soxfan13
08-22-2007, 11:49 AM
Crede will be the starting 3B, because the Sox need to show that he is in fact healthy. They can't move him until his health has been proven. Later on in the season Crede will be traded and Fields will be the starting 3B.

No they cant move him but they dont have to pick up his option year.

JermaineDye05
08-22-2007, 11:51 AM
No they cant move him but they dont have to pick up his option year.

I think they'd like to get something for Crede, unless they plan on using the money to invest into someone like Hunter/Rowand or whoever.

soxfan13
08-22-2007, 11:56 AM
I think they'd like to get something for Crede, unless they plan on using the money to invest into someone like Hunter/Rowand or whoever.

So you would take the chance of going to arb and possibly payin aroung 8 to 10 million for next year and have his back crap out again? If that happens your poorer and you still have nothing to show for it. Like you mentioned I would rather save the money use it for some other holes because Fields IMO has shown he will hit comparably too Crede if not better. The defense should only improve also.

spiffie
08-22-2007, 12:03 PM
So you would take the chance of going to arb and possibly payin aroung 8 to 10 million for next year and have his back crap out again? If that happens your poorer and you still have nothing to show for it. Like you mentioned I would rather save the money use it for some other holes because Fields IMO has shown he will hit comparably too Crede if not better. The defense should only improve also.
Considering Crede settled for a shade under $5 million this year, I see no reason on earth to believe his salary would double in arbitration. He'd likely get the same money or a slight increase to 5.5 or so. Now, you can argue if that's even worth it, but the idea he'd end up earning $10 million has no real basis in fact.

soltrain21
08-22-2007, 12:04 PM
KW promised Mark B. & Paulie he would try to win again in 08, he has to have both there bats in line-up for that. Fields can surely play decent LF if a 250# bulldozer Carlos Lee can. We could rotate Pods and Erstead in CF to lessen chances of injury. Then our only weaknesses are 2nd base and SS. If we still had Mack we could rotate him and Cintron at 3rd and Fields could be out there now. The sooner we get him in regular position the better.


He is in a regular position. Some of you are relying way too much on thinking that Crede is going to come back and not miss a beat.

soxfan13
08-22-2007, 01:03 PM
Considering Crede settled for a shade under $5 million this year, I see no reason on earth to believe his salary would double in arbitration. He'd likely get the same money or a slight increase to 5.5 or so. Now, you can argue if that's even worth it, but the idea he'd end up earning $10 million has no real basis in fact.

Considering that in 2006 of the 106 players in arb they averaged a 106% increase in salary. 10 million is not an unreasonable number to be throwing around even though I think it would be closer to about 8 million.

spiffie
08-22-2007, 01:34 PM
Considering that in 2006 of the 106 players in arb they averaged a 106% increase in salary. 10 million is not an unreasonable number to be throwing around even though I think it would be closer to about 8 million.
Yes but most of those players actually played in 2005.

Perhaps a useful case to look at can be found across town. In 2006 Mark Prior earned 3.65 million. When the two sides prepped for arbitration the Cubs offered 3.4, and his side asked for 3.875 million. They agreed on a deal for 3.575 million.

Crede will not get a substantial increase. He might get a slight one, but I don't care if his agent is Boras or not, no arbitrator on earth is going to say "you played not even half a season with crappy numbers...9.5 million!"

soxfan13
08-22-2007, 01:40 PM
Yes but most of those players actually played in 2005.

Perhaps a useful case to look at can be found across town. In 2006 Mark Prior earned 3.65 million. When the two sides prepped for arbitration the Cubs offered 3.4, and his side asked for 3.875 million. They agreed on a deal for 3.575 million.

Crede will not get a substantial increase. He might get a slight one, but I don't care if his agent is Boras or not, no arbitrator on earth is going to say "you played not even half a season with crappy numbers...9.5 million!"

With Boras as his agent I dont see why he wouldnt ask for 8 or 9 million and the Sox counter with 5 or 6. Prior actually IMO isnt a good comparision as he didnt have the history that Crede has.

Lip Man 1
08-22-2007, 02:59 PM
Story in Daily Southtown on this, includes Kenny quotes:

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/520131,221SPT3.article

Lip

soxinem1
08-22-2007, 10:45 PM
Having a Pods and Erstad rotation in CF is not going to help us win in 2008.

Not only that, but neither of them will probably even be in the 2008 plans.

MetroPD
08-23-2007, 04:38 AM
Crede will be lucky if he's able to lace on the spikes without help, let alone playing daily at 3b next year. I'd like Joe, for the sake of his health, take the time necessary to be 100% instead of going on the DL coming back prematurely and reinjuring himself again.

Frater Perdurabo
08-23-2007, 06:15 AM
Not only that, but neither of them will probably even be in the 2008 plans.

I don't mind Pods on the team as a 4th OF/pinch runner.

I don't want Ozzie to have the option of Erstad. He's fine as a 4th OF and backup 1B, but Ozzie won't use him that way, because Ozzie thinks he's a .400 hitter. Therefore, to prevent Ozzie from doing that, I'd rather not have Erstad on the team.

soxrme
08-23-2007, 08:06 AM
So you would take the chance of going to arb and possibly payin aroung 8 to 10 million for next year and have his back crap out again? If that happens your poorer and you still have nothing to show for it. Like you mentioned I would rather save the money use it for some other holes because Fields IMO has shown he will hit comparably too Crede if not better. The defense should only improve also.
I would take that chance in a heart beat. We gave up Maggs for nothing and now you want to give up one of the best 3rd basemen in baseball? Put Fields in left now. KW has made too damn many mistakes already this will only add to it.

soxfan13
08-23-2007, 10:32 AM
I would take that chance in a heart beat. We gave up Maggs for nothing and now you want to give up one of the best 3rd basemen in baseball? Put Fields in left now. KW has made too damn many mistakes already this will only add to it.

Im glad you would have payed Mags the money he was asking for without knowing he was healthy. He wasnt 100 percent until last year so the Sox did what was right they saved themselves a bunch of cash to use elsewhere. With Mags IMO we dont win the division considering he only played about 80 games in 2005 and we would have had a low level right fielder in there playing for him cuz we had the money tied up on him. As for Crede yes he is one of the best third basemen out there but his situation physically is starting to set up alot like Mags did. Alot of uncertainty about whether he will play. Crede brought this on himself by taking some bad advice from his agent and not having this procedure done last winter when the Sox begged him to. So yes let him go use the money elsewhere. Fields has proven he can play and his defense will improve.

mjmcend
08-23-2007, 10:35 AM
I would take that chance in a heart beat. We gave up Maggs for nothing and now you want to give up one of the best 3rd basemen in baseball? Put Fields in left now. KW has made too damn many mistakes already this will only add to it.

You have a wide definition of best.

voodoochile
08-23-2007, 10:45 AM
You have a wide definition of best.

If healthy, Crede is one of the top 5 3B in baseball right now unless I am missing something.

How many would you rank above him?

mjmcend
08-23-2007, 11:08 AM
If healthy, Crede is one of the top 5 3B in baseball right now unless I am missing something.

How many would you rank above him?

ARod
Cabrera
Wright
Jones
Rameriz
Braun
Zimmerman

And if we are going to play the 'if healthy' game then I would take Rolen as well.

Atkins is close as well.

I know this is just semantics, but to me 'one of the best' is not just top 10, more like top 3.

soxfan13
08-23-2007, 11:17 AM
ARod
Cabrera
Wright
Jones
Rameriz
Braun
Zimmerman

And if we are going to play the 'if healthy' game then I would take Rolen as well.

Atkins is close as well.

I know this is just semantics, but to me 'one of the best' is not just top 10, more like top 3.

Yes Braun has an amazing bat but he is ,and i am not exagerating, a complete butcher in the field. He makes Fields look like a Gold Glover.

socko82
08-23-2007, 03:09 PM
Just curious. Can anyone name a player coming off major surgery and a season where he hit in the range of .216/4/22 was awarded a 4 million dollar raise by an arbitrator? Not a free agent like Mags, an arbitration case. I'm not saying their isn't one or it's not possible I'm just not aware of it ever happening before. Also if he was going to ask for 8 to 10 million why didn't he ask for it last winter when he was coming off his career year and had a much stronger case. I'm a big fan of watching Josh hit but watching him field makes me appreciate Joe even more. I think you resign Crede with a small raise and move Fields to either LF or 1st base if they listen to offers for Konerko.

voodoochile
08-23-2007, 04:05 PM
Just curious. Can anyone name a player coming off major surgery and a season where he hit in the range of .216/4/22 was awarded a 4 million dollar raise by an arbitrator? Not a free agent like Mags, an arbitration case. I'm not saying their isn't one or it's not possible I'm just not aware of it ever happening before. Also if he was going to ask for 8 to 10 million why didn't he ask for it last winter when he was coming off his career year and had a much stronger case. I'm a big fan of watching Josh hit but watching him field makes me appreciate Joe even more. I think you resign Crede with a small raise and move Fields to either LF or 1st base if they listen to offers for Konerko.

Konerko isn't going anywhere, so you can just put that idea out of your head.

Jerksticks
08-23-2007, 04:19 PM
Konerko isn't going anywhere, so you can just put that idea out of your head.


Worst post ever. He said IF. This is a message board not a contest. You aren't KW, he's not KW, and I'm not KW. People can speculate all they want here.

Although I do agree Konerko is going nowhere, I find no reason to state it like a total dbag.

voodoochile
08-23-2007, 04:23 PM
Worst post ever. He said IF. This is a message board not a contest. You aren't KW, he's not KW, and I'm not KW. People can speculate all they want here.

Although I do agree Konerko is going nowhere, I find no reason to state it like a total dbag.

:?:

I can think of a LOT worse posts that have been posted on these forums and I stand by what I said. Konerko isn't going anywhere, so it won't be if, it won't be when, it just won't happen.

And exactly how is stating my opinion of the matter in blunt terms acting like a "dbag". I think there's a lot more "dbag" in telling someone you think they sound like a "dbag" than there is in what I said.

In other words, I know you are, but what am I? :rolleyes:

:walnuts
"I gave the chairman the ball. I'm set for life..."

voodoochile
08-23-2007, 04:31 PM
Oh and one other thing. At the end of this season, PK will officially be a 10/5 guy so he can veto any trade...

Flight #24
08-23-2007, 04:47 PM
Back to Joe, factor in that while back surgery (and any surgery, really) involves a lot of risk regarding recovery, the surgery Joe had is relatively routine and full recovery is common. That makes it quite different from Maggs situation in which not only was the condition of his knee somewhat unknown, the procedure and recovery prospects were as well.

If indeed the arbitrator cannot factor in injury potential and also doesn't get to reealy factor in the poor play this past season (using the argument that he's healthy now so look at his healthy seasons), it's still not that bad a risk for the Sox to pay $8M to Joe because the chances are fairly high that his back is recovered. Also, call me naive, but I feel like Joe's a lot more honest & reliable than Maggs ever was, and I can't see him screwing the Sox over as completely as Maggs was willing to.

mjmcend
08-23-2007, 06:28 PM
Also, call me naive, but I feel like Joe's a lot more honest & reliable than Maggs ever was, and I can't see him screwing the Sox over as completely as Maggs was willing to.

Well thankfully that will be easy to determine. If Crede lets the Sox's docs look at him before the arbitration deadline, and they give him a clean bill of health (or at least that they believe he is on his way to being healthy) then you can go right ahead with arbitration/signing him to a one year deal. If he doesn't let the Sox look at him (like Maggs), then it should be 'don't let the door hit you on the way out' (like Maggs).

KyWhiSoxFan
08-23-2007, 06:42 PM
I like Fields alot, but I think Crede will be given the chance to return for one reason: He is too valuable to give away for nothing in return. If he is not in the long-range, you have to play him in order to get fair value in a trade.

I do think they'll trade him as soon as he establishes some value.

The question is, what do you do with Fields if you break spring training with Crede and they really want to trade him? I don't know the answer to that.

BadBobbyJenks
08-23-2007, 07:57 PM
Has Crede seen Tracy Mcgrady's back guy?

Frontman
08-24-2007, 07:47 PM
If Joe returns to form, it will be him. If not, Josh will be the starting 3B, with possibly Joe becoming a bench player, or even possibly DH.

Frater Perdurabo
08-24-2007, 10:17 PM
There's room for both players.

Against LHP: Crede at 3B, Fields at DH (200 plate appearances each)

Against RHP, with Buehrle/Garland/other GB pitcher pitching for the Sox: Crede at 3B (160-240 PAs), Thome at DH (200 PAs)

Against RHP, with Vazquez/Danks/other flyball/K pitcher throwing for the Sox: Fields at 3B (160-240 PAs), Thome at DH (200 PAs)

In every scenario, one of Thome, Crede or Fields could pinch hit.

Fields also could play a little 1B and LF. This makes hackers like Cintron, Erstad and Gonzalez expendable, and clears space for a LHB like Mackowiak. Fields (3B, DH, 1B, LF), Ozuna (2B, SS, LF), Mack (LF, RF, 3B, 1B), Owens (CF, LF) and Hall (C) makes a stout bench. Now, just fill the LF, CF and SS holes, and the Sox offense is set!

Artoo
08-27-2007, 03:51 PM
I hope it's Crede, but I'm having my doubts...:(: