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View Full Version : Is This the Beginning of the End for the Tigers?


SBSoxFan
08-19-2007, 05:36 PM
Alternate title: 2007 Tigers = 2006 White Sox?

After another Tiger loss today, they stand 3 (3.5 if Seattle finishes off it's 8-2 lead over the Sox :whiner:) games back in the wild card and 2 (possibly 2.5 by days end) games back in the division with a record of 67 - 57. Last year at this time, the Sox were 73 - 49 with a 2 game lead over Minnesota in the wild card, and we all know how that ended.

Has the world series run finally caught up with Detroit? With Cleveland and Minnesota playing mediocre does it matter?

WhiteSox5187
08-19-2007, 05:55 PM
Alternate title: 2007 Tigers = 2006 White Sox?

After another Tiger loss today, they stand 3 (3.5 if Seattle finishes off it's 8-2 lead over the Sox :whiner:) games back in the wild card and 2 (possibly 2.5 by days end) games back in the division with a record of 67 - 57. Last year at this time, the Sox were 73 - 49 with a 2 game lead over Minnesota in the wild card, and we all know how that ended.

Has the world series run finally caught up with Detroit? With Cleveland and Minnesota playing mediocre does it matter?
Going into the year I said that the Tigers would suffer the same fate as the Sox did last year in the second half. That rotation never threw anywhere near the amount of innings it racked up last year. But since the Central this year is really only a two team race (as opposed to the three team one last year) it's concieveable that the Tigers could squeak into a divisional championship or maybe possibly get hot and get a wild card berth.

FloridaTigers
08-19-2007, 07:52 PM
The wildcard is not a concern for Tigers fans. With the way Seattle and Yankees playing, the team can control their own fate by beating up on Cleveland. The WC depends too much on other teams too many times. The Tigers are 1 1/2 game back. It is mid-August. With Zumaya returning, if anything, they are in great shape to make a September run as opposed to the Indians who still aren't hitting and still use Joe Borowski.

But then again, the Tigers still use Jason Grilli, so I don't know.

Noneck
08-19-2007, 08:10 PM
But since the Central this year is really only a two team race (as opposed to the three team one last year) it's concieveable that the Tigers could squeak into a divisional championship or maybe possibly get hot and get a wild card berth.

Its a 3team race this year also.

WhiteSox5187
08-19-2007, 08:21 PM
Its a 3team race this year also.
I think the Twins are done.

Noneck
08-19-2007, 08:32 PM
I think the Twins are done.

Last year on this date:
GB
Tigers 79-44
Sox 73-49 5.5
Minn 71-51 7.5

If that was a 2 team race, you have to realize that this year has to be considered a 3team race.

Red Barchetta
08-19-2007, 08:58 PM
Last year on this date:
GB
Tigers 79-44
Sox 73-49 5.5
Minn 71-51 7.5

If that was a 2 team race, you have to realize that this year has to be considered a 3team race.

Man! If we were 73-49 this year, we would be in first by 5 games!

Cubs are 4 games over .500 and they're talking World Series. :mad:

FloridaTigers
08-19-2007, 08:59 PM
Cubs are 4 games over .500 and they're talking World Series. :mad:

Frankly, as long as you're just 3 or 4 games under .500 in the NL, World Series is a possibility.

WhiteSox5187
08-19-2007, 09:04 PM
Last year on this date:
GB
Tigers 79-44
Sox 73-49 5.5
Minn 71-51 7.5

If that was a 2 team race, you have to realize that this year has to be considered a 3team race.
Yea, but the Twins don't have that fierce rotation of Santana, Lirano and Nathan this year. That rotation really is the reason they made that surge.

Noneck
08-19-2007, 09:39 PM
Yea, but the Twins don't have that fierce rotation of Santana, Lirano and Nathan this year. That rotation really is the reason they made that surge.

Lirano had 1 appearance since this time last year and Nathan is a relief pitcher(this year and last) and wasn't part of the rotation last year.

Grzegorz
08-19-2007, 09:51 PM
Screw the Twins; they're done.

The Tigers on the other hand are not done.

WhiteSoxJunkie
08-19-2007, 11:56 PM
Cubs are 4 games over .500 and they're talking World Series. :mad:

Last year the Cardinals finished 4 games over .500 and they won the World Series.

WhiteSox5187
08-20-2007, 12:01 AM
Lirano had 1 appearance since this time last year and Nathan is a relief pitcher(this year and last) and wasn't part of the rotation last year.
I'm sorry, I meant to say Radke. Not Nathan...but still Liriano was a HUGE part of that team's resurgance last year.

Noneck
08-20-2007, 12:11 AM
I'm sorry, I meant to say Radke. Not Nathan...but still Liriano was a HUGE part of that team's resurgance last year.

Like I told you before Liriano had 1 appearance since this time last year when they were 7.5 out, so he was not a factor in their late surge to win the division. Radke had 3 appearances since this time last year and was 2-1 since they were 7.5 out.

soltrain21
08-20-2007, 12:31 AM
The Twins are never done. In fact, I'm not entirely convinced that we won the division in 2005.

JB98
08-20-2007, 01:02 AM
The Tigers definitely have some age at key positions. Rodriguez and Sheffield are getting up there. Don't know how much longer Guillen can play shortstop. Polanco isn't young either.

Really, the thing that perplexes me about Detroit is how their starting pitching has tanked in the second half two years in a row. It seems like everyone on that staff is a first-half pitcher. They caught a second wind for the playoffs last year, but that was largely on the back of Rogers, who is injured this season.

The Central isn't nearly as strong as we thought it was at the start of the year. Makes the Sox struggles all the more frustrating.

Oblong
08-20-2007, 10:11 AM
I'm not ready to say it's the end because Cleveland doesn't seem to want the central title either. They are only 1.5 games up. Leyland's starting to shake things up. Inge is being benched, the dumped Monroe. Zumaya is coming back this week and Rogers may begin rehab... again. Until one of the top 3 teams take charge then I don't think you can say any of them are done.

Forget the wild card. Too many teams in the hunt. The division is the path to the playoffs.

That said, making the playoffs is hard and I like it that way. It's rare to make it two years in a row.

TDog
08-20-2007, 11:44 AM
...

The Central isn't nearly as strong as we thought it was at the start of the year. Makes the Sox struggles all the more frustrating.

I didn't think the AL Central was such a strong division at the beginning of the year and I posted as much. That said, I didn't expect the AL Central to be the second weakest division in the majors. Were the first-place Indians in the wild card race, they would have a couple of teams in front of them. It's not as bad as the Cubs who would have, I think, at least three teams ahead of them in the wild card race.

The Twins are better than I thought they would be, considering the state of their starting pitching. Still, I expected both the Tigers and Indians to have trouble winning in the second half.

What's frustrating as a Sox fan is that if the Sox had played well after their low point following interleague play, they could still be hahed of hte Twins, probably the Tigers and they could be battling with the Indians.

jabrch
08-20-2007, 12:29 PM
Nope - can't be. They have Miller, Maybin and Porcello.

FloridaTigers
08-20-2007, 03:43 PM
Nope - can't be. They have Miller, Maybin and Porcello.

Which is why our "age" won't matter in the future. So what if Sheffield retires? Maybin, a 22 year old when Sheff's contract expires will play outfield. Kenny Rogers? Andrew Miller will be ready to pitch when Rogers retires.

Tigers also drafted a slew of promising middle infield prospects. Iorg and Worth are currently the most promising but have a long way. If the Tigers fail to make the playoffs this year, they'll be in contention for a while in the upcoming seasons.

thomas35forever
08-20-2007, 04:34 PM
ESPN.com reports that Zumaya will activated for tomorrow night's game. Wonder if this'll turn things around for the team.

FloridaTigers
08-20-2007, 04:37 PM
ESPN.com reports that Zumaya will activated for tomorrow night's game. Wonder if this'll turn things around for the team.

I hope. I'm not expecting 2006-Dominant Zumaya off the bat though. It'll take a week or two for him to probably get his control completely where he wants it and maybe a little longer for velocity to get there. Don't be surprised if Zumaya doesn't do well in his first few appearances.

palehozenychicty
08-20-2007, 04:48 PM
ESPN.com reports that Zumaya will activated for tomorrow night's game. Wonder if this'll turn things around for the team.


I think they have one more charge left in them. When they're on, they're really good.

The Immigrant
08-20-2007, 04:48 PM
Which is why our "age" won't matter in the future.

You got me convinced - we might as well crown their asses now.

jabrch
08-20-2007, 05:02 PM
Which is why our "age" won't matter in the future. So what if Sheffield retires? Maybin, a 22 year old when Sheff's contract expires will play outfield. Kenny Rogers? Andrew Miller will be ready to pitch when Rogers retires.

Tigers also drafted a slew of promising middle infield prospects. Iorg and Worth are currently the most promising but have a long way. If the Tigers fail to make the playoffs this year, they'll be in contention for a while in the upcoming seasons.


Must be awesome to be able to project all of your prospects will flourish at the big league level. Whatever you are sniffing, please send me some.

SABRSox
08-20-2007, 05:33 PM
Beginning of the end for the Tigers? Hardly. They're stocked in the minors.

Beginning of the end for the White Sox is much more likely.

FloridaTigers
08-20-2007, 07:28 PM
Must be awesome to be able to project all of your prospects will flourish at the big league level. Whatever you are sniffing, please send me some.

I didn't say they would flourish, but they are very promising. Like I said, Worth and Iorg have a very very long road ahead of them, and Porcello won't see the bigs for a long time. I didn't say anything was set in stone yet, but the prospects closer to the big leagues (Maybin and Miller) are looking very promising and talented.

PKalltheway
08-20-2007, 07:40 PM
I'm not ready to say it's the end because Cleveland doesn't seem to want the central title either. They are only 1.5 games up.

Forget the wild card. Too many teams in the hunt. The division is the path to the playoffs.


I agree. How can you say that the Tigers are done when Cleveland has been stumbling as well? I also agree that it's the AL Central title or bust for the Tigers and Indians.

UserNameBlank
08-21-2007, 12:39 AM
Must be awesome to be able to project all of your prospects will flourish at the big league level. Whatever you are sniffing, please send me some.
You are putting words in his mouth, or text in his text box, or whatever ou want to call it. He never said they would flourish; he simply said the Tigers would have players from their farm system to replace their veterans with. Maybe they turn out great, maybe they don't. But it's not like we are talking about the Tigers' versions of Jerry Owens and Lance Broadway here. Maybin and Miller are very good prospects, and if they were Sox prospects you wouldn't be so dismissive of them.

UserNameBlank
08-21-2007, 12:51 AM
The Tigers definitely have some age at key positions. Rodriguez and Sheffield are getting up there. Don't know how much longer Guillen can play shortstop. Polanco isn't young either.

Really, the thing that perplexes me about Detroit is how their starting pitching has tanked in the second half two years in a row. It seems like everyone on that staff is a first-half pitcher. They caught a second wind for the playoffs last year, but that was largely on the back of Rogers, who is injured this season.

The Central isn't nearly as strong as we thought it was at the start of the year. Makes the Sox struggles all the more frustrating.
You make good points here.

First, it is true that they are getting up there in some areas, but let's remember that the Tigers did go to the WS without Sheffield last year, so while he is a big part of their team, it's not like they will collapse without him. Also, Sheff is a DH so he can extend his career a bit in that spot. Even when Sheff retires, as long as the Tigers have a good MLB team and at least a decent farm system, they will be able to find another high caliber offesive player to stick at the DH spot. Either that or they can find a productive OF and shift Maggs to DH.

Second, I think a lot of people thought Detroit's pitching would tail off. I know I said this before ST and I know a lot of other people here did too. Much of that though can be attributed to the youth in Detroit's staff, but as long as they all avoid major injury, they should only improve in that area. Kenny Rogers will be replaced soon enough. Robertson is a good #4/#5, Verlander, Bonderman, and Miller all have ace potential, and I'm sure they won't hve much trouble finding one more starter for the back of their rotation. Miller IMO is their biggest worry. For some reason I just think that guy is going to **** up his arm.

Lastly, I think the whole division is underachieving this year which is pretty strange considering the talent level. Things should change next year, which IMO will be big improvements by the Sox and Minnesota. KC will also be more of a factor. I think Cleveland is going to end up like all those Sox teams that we had when Cleveland was whooping on us: all offense with some pitching but not enough and poor fundamentals.

ma-gaga
08-21-2007, 02:01 AM
I'm sorry, I meant to say Radke. Not Nathan...but still Liriano was a HUGE part of that team's resurgance last year.

Yea, but the Twins don't have that fierce rotation of Santana, Lirano and Nathan this year. That rotation really is the reason they made that surge.


The Twins have the pitching to contend. But their offense has completely tanked. A lot of people, here at WSI, were predicting this, but I don't remember you being one of them. Last weekend they scored a TOTAL of 3 runs against Texas in a three game set. And won two of those games.

But they are simply not going to win 96, 1-0 or 2-1 games. And that's all their offense seems to be able to support. If you would have done a little research before posting, you would have seen that instead of mis-spelling Liriano and putting Nathan into the rotation.

:rolleyes:

DrewSox56
08-21-2007, 02:18 AM
The Twins have the pitching to contend. But their offense has completely tanked. A lot of people, here at WSI, were predicting this, but I don't remember you being one of them. Last weekend they scored a TOTAL of 3 runs against Texas in a three game set. And won two of those games.

But they are simply not going to win 96, 1-0 or 2-1 games. And that's all their offense seems to be able to support. If you would have done a little research before posting, you would have seen that instead of mis-spelling Liriano and putting Nathan into the rotation.

:rolleyes:


Pwned.

And he attributed Liriano for a 12+ game comeback last year (from today's date) when he was on the DL too... read that at lunch today...

SBSoxFan
08-21-2007, 08:26 AM
Beginning of the end for the Tigers? Hardly. They're stocked in the minors.

Beginning of the end for the White Sox is much more likely.

I was only speaking of 2007. Whether they are stocked in the minors remains to be seen. However, they're in the thick of a pennant chase and have had to dip into the farm system in hopes of some late season support. That's not necessarily a good thing. Take tonight's game against Cleveland, for example. They're starting some guy named Jurrjens (0-1) vs. Carmona.

You make good points here.

First, it is true that they are getting up there in some areas, but let's remember that the Tigers did go to the WS without Sheffield last year, so while he is a big part of their team, it's not like they will collapse without him. Also, Sheff is a DH so he can extend his career a bit in that spot. Even when Sheff retires, as long as the Tigers have a good MLB team and at least a decent farm system, they will be able to find another high caliber offesive player to stick at the DH spot. Either that or they can find a productive OF and shift Maggs to DH.

You could have written that first paragraph about the 2006 White Sox, just replace Thome with Sheffield. There seem to be some close comparisons between the two teams. The main difference, of course, is that the White Sox were coming off a world series victory, while Detroit ... not so much. :D: I don't know how much of a difference that makes regarding "hunger" or whatever the next season.

Second, I think a lot of people thought Detroit's pitching would tail off. I know I said this before ST and I know a lot of other people here did too. Much of that though can be attributed to the youth in Detroit's staff, but as long as they all avoid major injury, they should only improve in that area. Kenny Rogers will be replaced soon enough. Robertson is a good #4/#5, Verlander, Bonderman, and Miller all have ace potential, and I'm sure they won't hve much trouble finding one more starter for the back of their rotation. Miller IMO is their biggest worry. For some reason I just think that guy is going to **** up his arm.

I just don't get this Bonderman = ace/ace potential stuff. Maybe he's sort of like Vazquez, only with lesser stuff. :dunno:

You are putting words in his mouth, or text in his text box, or whatever ou want to call it. He never said they would flourish; he simply said the Tigers would have players from their farm system to replace their veterans with. Maybe they turn out great, maybe they don't. But it's not like we are talking about the Tigers' versions of Jerry Owens and Lance Broadway here. Maybin and Miller are very good prospects, and if they were Sox prospects you wouldn't be so dismissive of them.

So do the White Sox, so does any team that has a farm system ... which would be all of them! The question is how well they perform at the ML level, not whether they have a body to take up space.

UserNameBlank
08-21-2007, 10:34 AM
You could have written that first paragraph about the 2006 White Sox, just replace Thome with Sheffield. There seem to be some close comparisons between the two teams. The main difference, of course, is that the White Sox were coming off a world series victory, while Detroit ... not so much. :D: I don't know how much of a difference that makes regarding "hunger" or whatever the next season.

I agree with this. Lots of comparisons can be made to the '06 Sox. While the '06 were a better team than the '07 Tigers (by record anyway), they weren't anywhere near the level overall of the '05 Sox. This is also the case with the Tigers, even though, like the 2006 Sox, the team on the field after the WS trip was better on paper.

I just don't get this Bonderman = ace/ace potential stuff. Maybe he's sort of like Vazquez, only with lesser stuff. :dunno:

That's why I said "potential" and I guess it also depends on what you call an "ace." He'll never be a true ace in the Santana/Halladay/Oswalt type of mold but I think he'll be one of those very good #2's that lead pitching staffs and are referred to as "aces," kind of like us in 2005 when people were calling Buehrle, Garland, and Garcia all aces. Truth is Contreras is the only one with true ace ability, and the rest are all pretty solid #2's when they aren't hurt or experiencing "knots" in their shoulders (untie the ****ing thing already).

So do the White Sox, so does any team that has a farm system ... which would be all of them! The question is how well they perform at the ML level, not whether they have a body to take up space.

Well, that's why I believe the next sentence down I mentioned Owens and Broadway. Maybin and Miller are much better prospects than anyone we have in the high levels as far as ceiling goes. Sweeney still isn't showing power and both he and Anderson have battled injuries a lot this year, Owens is already overrated and can barely hit the ball out of the infield, and while we have a couple good looking SP prospects in Double A, they aren't fast-moving hard throwing lefties with, as Hawk would say, "Nintendo stuff."

I do love me some Josh Fields though. I'll say it right now probably to a lot of criticism, but 2 years from now Fields is going to be putting up David Wright numbers and will be viewed as the consensus best player on the team. If he plays everyday next year without injury, he'll get 30+ bombs and drive in around 100 in his first full year, all with 20-25 SB's. I love what Crede has done here, but I'd hate to **** Josh over by making him switch positions next year. I'd rather take the hit, cut Crede, and keep Josh at 3B over the winter and through ST and the regular season. He's the best looking position prospect I've seen the Sox bring up since Maggs.

Oblong
08-21-2007, 11:02 AM
paraphrasing another poster on another MB.... Bonderman's viewed as a potential ace because he's got a mid 90s fastball, gets a lot of strikeouts, doesn't walk too many, has what many think is the best slider in baseball, and is pretty durable, plus he's still young. That sounds like the recipe for an ace. He just hasn't performed like one yet.

cwsfannick
08-21-2007, 12:10 PM
paraphrasing another poster on another MB.... Bonderman's viewed as a potential ace because he's got a mid 90s fastball, gets a lot of strikeouts, doesn't walk too many, has what many think is the best slider in baseball, and is pretty durable, plus he's still young. That sounds like the recipe for an ace. He just hasn't performed like one yet.

He needs to figure out how to get out of the first without putting the Tigers in a hole. Baby Steps for Bonderman.

Chez
08-21-2007, 01:30 PM
With their pitching getting healthy, I like Detroit's chances to win the Central. It hurts (and shocks) me to say it, but leaving pitching out of the analysis, the Tigers are stronger than the White Sox at every position but first base. Hard to believe.

Huisj
08-21-2007, 01:53 PM
Remember August of '05? The Sox had been unbeatable all year, and then of a sudden they were terrible and almost lost their whole lead. Then they got it together half way through September, got hot, and the rest is history.

Every team goes through rough stretches, even very good teams like the '05 Sox and the Tigers this year. They had some injuries and a bit of roster churning lately, and they've stumbled a bit as a result. They'll get things in line and come together. They are far from being done. Sure they've got a few weaknesses here and there, but so does every team, especially in this division.

kjhanson
08-21-2007, 02:54 PM
paraphrasing another poster on another MB.... Bonderman's viewed as a potential ace because he's got a mid 90s fastball, gets a lot of strikeouts, doesn't walk too many, has what many think is the best slider in baseball, and is pretty durable, plus he's still young. That sounds like the recipe for an ace. He just hasn't performed like one yet.

Bonderman's slider is nowhere near the best in all of baseball. It's definitely a plus pitch, but he relies on it way too much, especially with the command he has over his fastball. I agree with everything else you said. He's 24, has a great K:BB and has a great fastball.

I don't think anyone is complaining about his 24-14 (.632) record over the past two years when speaking about him as an ace. Rather, it's his 4.71 career ERA and 1.36 WHIP. Those are pretty bad numbers after five full years in the majors. The most similar pitcher to him at his age is the great Pedro Ramos. That's not who you want to be compared with. Most pitchers who started at age 20 seemed to struggle for the first four years, and really break out in the 5th. Instead, Bonderman has regressed terribly this year.

FloridaTigers
08-21-2007, 09:10 PM
Tonight's game felt like 2006. Dominant starting pitching, clutch homeruns, with Zumaya-Rodney-Jones to close it out.

champagne030
08-21-2007, 09:41 PM
paraphrasing another poster on another MB.... Bonderman's viewed as a potential ace because he's got a mid 90s fastball, gets a lot of strikeouts, doesn't walk too many, has what many think is the best slider in baseball, and is pretty durable, plus he's still young. That sounds like the recipe for an ace. He just hasn't performed like one yet.

I don't know about the best slider in baseball, but the Javy analogy is pretty damn close. He's an enigma.

Grzegorz
08-21-2007, 09:47 PM
I love what Crede has done here, but I'd hate to **** Josh over by making him switch positions next year. I'd rather take the hit, cut Crede, and keep Josh at 3B over the winter and through ST and the regular season. He's the best looking position prospect I've seen the Sox bring up since Maggs.

Just cut Crede? Get nothing for him? BTW, Fields has miles to go defensively at third base. A stint in winter ball and some aggressive spring training drills will do him wonders.

So will watching one of the best in the game go about his business: Joe Crede.

He needs to figure out how to get out of the first without putting the Tigers in a hole. Baby Steps for Bonderman.

Bonderman will be fine and that staff will be fine. Dave Dombrowski built the Detroit Tigers correctly. They have good field management too.

Oblong
08-21-2007, 10:10 PM
I don't know about the best slider in baseball, but the Javy analogy is pretty damn close. He's an enigma.

I'm just going by what I've heard the pundits say. It's not necessarily
my opinion.

SBSoxFan
08-22-2007, 10:26 AM
Tonight's game felt like 2006. Dominant starting pitching, clutch homeruns, with Zumaya-Rodney-Jones to close it out.

Yeah. Shows you what I know. :D:

AngryCollins
08-22-2007, 02:50 PM
yes

FloridaTigers
08-22-2007, 03:14 PM
Yeah. Shows you what I know. :D:

Actually, in a week the team can go promising to brain dead and vice versa. Thats just baseball. Cleveland can win the next two games and many Tigers fans will be in a panic.