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oldcomiskey
04-07-2002, 03:35 PM
now I aks ya----bring up crede and trade the choice for a minor leaguer--hes certainly no better than singleton

RKMeibalane
04-07-2002, 04:14 PM
The only player worse than the choice is Chuck Knoblauch. His average is slightly worse.

RichieRichAllen
04-07-2002, 04:26 PM
Ah, that's it. It's all Choice's fault again.

I'm pretty sure a moribund offense and a disastrous excuse for a superstar first baseman is doing us in today.

Can we, at least, blame the goat when he's responsible?

doublem23
04-07-2002, 04:33 PM
In today's game, having someone in your lineup who's batting .059 doesn't help winning...

We may as well just hit the damn pitcher.

:crede
I could at least hit my weight.

CubKilla
04-07-2002, 04:39 PM
Lower than .059 after looking at strike 3 at the knees to lead-off the 8th. I tried to be patient at the beginning of this season but after seeing the White Sox start this season like last season, something has to be done and done quickly. No more Frank at first, fire Nardi, do SOMETHING! Can't afford to fall too far into the hole again.

RichieRichAllen
04-07-2002, 04:46 PM
In today's game, you win and lose as a team. Sometimes one player gives you the lift you need, other times one player lets you down...but it's pretty much a team effort.

I'm not an apologist for Clayton...just sick and tired of hearing he's the anti-christ who's responsible for all our wrongs.

Originally posted by doublem23
In today's game, having someone in your lineup who's batting .059 doesn't help winning...

We may as well just hit the damn pitcher.

:crede
I could at least hit my weight.

Paulwny
04-07-2002, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
now I aks ya----bring up crede

Can he pitch out of the bull pen?

duke of dorwood
04-07-2002, 04:55 PM
There is NO upside to keeping him

voodoochile
04-07-2002, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
There is NO upside to keeping him

And that is the final argument...

No, it isn't all Choice's fault, but that isn't the point either. The point is why do you play a guy who is no better than league average at his position (all around game) and arguably one of the worst in the league.

RichieRichAllen
04-07-2002, 05:04 PM
And there will never be an upside to those who choose to believe he's the anti-christ.

You point to his second-half last year...you'll point out his first-half.

You cite his defensive numbers last year...you'll point out he doesn't reach for balls like he should.

You mention that he seemed to come to camp with a decent attitude this spring...you'll skewer him for his snit (and yeah, it was just that...a whiny, snit) last year.

It's pointless and irrational. Let's face it, for better or worse, he's the focal whipping boy here. I'm just saying, I think it's dumb.

Frankly speaking (no pun intended), I'd prefer to ride roughshod on Manuel's decision to start Thomas in the field again today. What's the point there? Plus...if you like to point fingers...Manuel's the manager. If you're looking for a scapegoat, he definitely makes a better "Exhibit A" than Clayton ever would.

Originally posted by duke of dorwood
There is NO upside to keeping him

doublem23
04-07-2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
Frankly speaking (no pun intended), I'd prefer to ride roughshod on Manuel's decision to start Thomas in the field again today. What's the point there? Plus...if you like to point fingers...Manuel's the manager. If you're looking for a scapegoat, he definitely makes a better "Exhibit A" than Clayton ever would.

Konerko's hurt

RichieRichAllen
04-07-2002, 05:14 PM
Sorry, Jerry (the real one). I didn't know. Everything you did today was tops.

Except for keeping Nardi employed for another day, that is.

Originally posted by doublem23


Konerko's hurt

RKMeibalane
04-07-2002, 05:56 PM
Yes, Frank was horrible in the field, but that's to be expected. He's not a good fielder. He has said this numerous times, yet Manuel puts him out there. Frank does what he's told. Besides, he was the Sox offense today. Without him, they get shutout.

Clayton is batting .059, reminiscent of his horrible first half in 2001. If he doesn't get it going by the end of the Detroit series, Manuel should bench him, bring Crede up from Charlotte, and put Jose Valentin back at his natural position. Clayton has been so bad early this season that he is almost a sure out when he steps into the batter's box.

Yesterday, when every Sox regular got a hit, Clayton was the exception. What does that tell you? He sucks. That's why no one else wants him. The likes of John Rocker and Carl Everett were able to find jobs on other teams this past off-season, but there were no takers for Royce, mainly because he's not any good.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-07-2002, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Clayton is batting .059, reminiscent of his horrible first half in 2001. If he doesn't get it going by the end of the Detroit series, Manuel should bench him, bring Crede up from Charlotte, and put Jose Valentin back at his natural position. Clayton has been so bad early this season that he is almost a sure out when he steps into the batter's box.


I didn't hear what Hawk had to say, but I'm betting he said nothing. On the radio however, Rooney and Farmer agreed that Alomar is getting NOTHING to hit because the pitchers know Clayton is up next. They compared it to being a #8 hitter in the National League where the pitcher is on-deck.

BTW, I've never heard Rooney or Farmer accused of being Royce haters. FYI.

:hawk
"I wouldn't say **** if I had..."

RichieRichAllen
04-07-2002, 06:24 PM
Or, maybe that Sox management actually WANTED him at SS this year (not totally implausible...we are talking Sox management here).

BTW, I'm pretty sure Royce does what he's told too. I doubt he winces upon seeing his name on the lineup card and says "Awww, c'mon Skip...you KNOW those guys over at WSI don't like it when you do that."

Another BTW...and this is not a Clayton vs. Valentin thing. Valentin (standing alone on his own merits) is a pretty shabby SS. I don't care if he dives head first in the second base bag for the ball...chances are that he'll throw it away anyway. And Jose was hitting what....about .190 before today's game? Well, that's certainly an offensive plug for 'ya.

Just a side note: I like Valentin. Think he offers good leadership in the clubhouse. Also believe he'll eventually hit every bit as good as last year overall. He'll play a fair-to-middling third base. Of course, I'm pretty sure that Clayton will put up his same numbers too. And despite the constant knocks, they weren't too bad. Too bad about Crede. I believe he belongs in the senior circuit. And he'll probably get there by mid-season.

Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Yes, Frank was horrible in the field, but that's to be expected. He's not a good fielder. He has said this numerous times, yet Manuel puts him out there. Frank does what he's told. Besides, he was the Sox offense today. Without him, they get shutout.

Clayton is batting .059, reminiscent of his horrible first half in 2001. If he doesn't get it going by the end of the Detroit series, Manuel should bench him, bring Crede up from Charlotte, and put Jose Valentin back at his natural position. Clayton has been so bad early this season that he is almost a sure out when he steps into the batter's box.

Yesterday, when every Sox regular got a hit, Clayton was the exception. What does that tell you? He sucks. That's why no one else wants him. The likes of John Rocker and Carl Everett were able to find jobs on other teams this past off-season, but there were no takers for Royce, mainly because he's not any good.

Daver
04-07-2002, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen


BTW, I'm pretty sure Royce does what he's told too.





Um no he doesn't,he refused to take extra BP with hitting coach Von Joshua last year,and did the same with Gary Ward.

rmusacch
04-07-2002, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by doublem23


Konerko's hurt

If Konerko is hurt, why is he DHing? IF he is hurt, put him on the DL. Play Liefer, anything but playing Frank at first.

CubKilla
04-07-2002, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


I didn't hear what Hawk had to say, but I'm betting he said nothing. On the radio however, Rooney and Farmer agreed that Alomar is getting NOTHING to hit because the pitchers know Clayton is up next. They compared it to being a #8 hitter in the National League where the pitcher is on-deck.

BTW, I've never heard Rooney or Farmer accused of being Royce haters. FYI.

:hawk
"I wouldn't say **** if I had..."

Hawk and DJ didn't say anything. DJ, however, did point out that Clayton's only hit was the HR in Seattle. The duo dropped the discussion at that.

Kilroy
04-07-2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch


If Konerko is hurt, why is he DHing? IF he is hurt, put him on the DL. Play Liefer, anything but playing Frank at first.

Konerko has a strained quadricep according to Hawk and Rooney.
Yesterday and today they talked about it.

As far as Royce: He's stinkin like a dog's ass right now at the plate. But that doesn't change the fact that Sox pitching gave up 9 runs today. Nor does it change the fact that the Sox once again, followed up a huge offensive day with a **** one. They do it all the time. if they score more than 10, you can almost guarantee the will score 1 or 2 and lose the next day.

I'm not gonna blame Royce for anything while teams are putting up huge numbers on our pitching. Besides, once again, people want to blame the ****ing #9 hitter for the team being 2-4. That's ludicrous. If it weren't for bad pitching, this team would be at least 4-2.

RichieRichAllen
04-07-2002, 07:26 PM
Hmmmm...and Manuel allows that? Well, we all know he didn't back Joshua. If Manuel does allow it, I suppose Clayton knows it's an option. Is it an option, isn't it? If not, then I guess you've got a management problem here. Wouldn't you say?

BTW...did Clayton's offensive numbers last year surprise you Daver? Did he not measure up to what his typical numbers would dictate?

I'm gonna' get to the root of all this if it kills me. :smile:

Originally posted by daver


Um no he doesn't,he refused to take extra BP with hitting coach Von Joshua last year,and did the same with Gary Ward.

Daver
04-07-2002, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
Hmmmm...and Manuel allows that? Well, we all know he didn't back Joshua. If Manuel does allow it, I suppose Clayton knows it's an option. Is it an option, isn't it? If not, then I guess you've got a management problem here. Wouldn't you say?

BTW...did Clayton's offensive numbers last year surprise you Daver? Did he not measure up to what his typical numbers would dictate?

I'm gonna' get to the root of all this if it kills me. :smile:



I think it is quite obvious that there are 4.5 million reasons that Royce is not on the bench or waived,and none of them have to do with baseball.

RichieRichAllen
04-07-2002, 07:50 PM
Now, we're getting somewhere!

No need to post all 4.5 mil. Maybe the top 3 might shed some light on this age old debate.

I imagine his salary might have a lil' something to do with it. Maybe a lil' ego on Kenny's part? BTW, is it proof positive that KW originally got Clayton to trade him or is this based on the Piniella/"Nardi is the worst pitching coach ever" type of conjecture?

Only the facts, please...thanks.

Originally posted by daver


I think it is quite obvious that there are 4.5 million reasons that Royce is not on the bench or waived,and none of them have to do with baseball.

Daver
04-07-2002, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
Now, we're getting somewhere!

No need to post all 4.5 mil. Maybe the top 3 might shed some light on this age old debate.

I imagine his salary might have a lil' something to do with it. Maybe a lil' ego on Kenny's part? BTW, is it proof positive that KW originally got Clayton to trade him or is this based on the Piniella/"Nardi is the worst pitching coach ever" type of conjecture?

Only the facts, please...thanks.



Kenny Williams has been quoted more than once that Royce was acqired to use in another trade,a deal that fell through by a multi team trade two days later,so it depends on whetether you trust Kenny's word or not.Saying that,Jose was signed to a contract extension AFTER the acquisition of Royce,which kinda points to Kenny being truthful in his statement.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-07-2002, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
BTW, is it proof positive that KW originally got Clayton to trade him or is this based on the Piniella/"Nardi is the worst pitching coach ever" type of conjecture?

Only the facts, please...thanks.



Williams himself was quoted by one of the beatwriters last August claiming precisely this. I think it was given to Cowley in the Southtown, but it might have been Deluca of the Sun-Times. It was widely reported from there, and mentioned by Sox announcers, like Dave Wills, as well.

Williams didn't officially take Royce off the market until last January when, again, he was quoted by one of the beatwriters. Put the two statements together, add it up, and it equals 13 months of shopping Royce unsuccessfully for KW.

Those are the facts.

RichieRichAllen
04-07-2002, 08:02 PM
...but what's the sense in making that statement anyway? It only makes you look stupid...like somebody who pulls the trigger before taking careful aim at the target. Hey, I think I just answered my own question there!

Plus, got in an analogy that only you might appreciate. :D:

Originally posted by daver


Kenny Williams has been quoted more than once that Royce was acqired to use in another trade,a deal that fell through by a multi team trade two days later,so it depends on whetether you trust Kenny's word or not.Saying that,Jose was signed to a contract extension AFTER the acquisition of Royce,which kinda points to Kenny being truthful in his statement.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-07-2002, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by daver
Kenny Williams has been quoted more than once that Royce was acqired to use in another trade,a deal that fell through by a multi team trade two days later,so it depends on whetether you trust Kenny's word or not.Saying that,Jose was signed to a contract extension AFTER the acquisition of Royce,which kinda points to Kenny being truthful in his statement.

Actually, KW re-signed Valentin as a free agent in November, 2000. That was before the winter meetings, at the time the Sox were actively pursuing Alex Rodriguez. Baltimore had offered an extra year to Valentin (something their GM never denied), but Jose took the Sox offer, claiming he wanted to play for a winner.

After the Arod debacle, KW made the trade for Royce. That was December, 2000. It wasn't until the following August that KW made public the truth about his motives for acquring Clayton.

Every bit of this was widely reported in the Chicago papers.

oldcomiskey
04-07-2002, 08:14 PM
bottom line---I think all marginal players like Manos and Raul Ibanez should do what they do---do your job and keep your mouth shut...Its not that Clayton sucks--which he does----as apparent by the fact that even teams needing a shortstop dont want him---its that he is now and always been a cancer while sucking--kinda reminds of a certain righthander we had here a few years ago---a hint---he was traded for manos

RichieRichAllen
04-07-2002, 08:14 PM
So, the Sox get Clayton to replace the hugely popular (albeit IMHO mediocre defensely) Valentin at SS. Then, to top it off, Clayton posts an awful first half of the season in a year that had Sox fans flying high after a highly successful 2000 campaign. So, he pretty much gets targeted as THE reason for the 2001 debacle in addition getting skewered for replacing the popular Valentin at SS. Am I reading this right so far?

Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Actually, KW re-signed Valentin as a free agent in November, 2000. That was before the winter meetings, at the time the Sox were actively pursuing Alex Rodriguez. Baltimore had offered an extra year to Valentin (something their GM never denied), but Jose took the Sox offer, claiming he wanted to play for a winner.

After the Arod debacle, KW made the trade for Royce. That was December, 2000. It wasn't until the following August that KW made public the truth about his motives for acquring Clayton.

Every bit of this was widely reported in the Chicago papers.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-07-2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by RichieRichAllen
So, the Sox get Clayton to replace the hugely popular (albeit IMHO mediocre defensely) Valentin at SS. Then, to top it off, Clayton posts an awful first half of the season in a year that had Sox fans flying high after a highly successful 2000 campaign. So, he pretty much gets targeted as THE reason for the 2001 debacle in addition getting skewered for replacing the popular Valentin at SS. Am I reading this right so far?



This has nothing to do with what you asked, nor with what I wrote in response.

What are you talking about?

RichieRichAllen
04-07-2002, 10:00 PM
Sorry, George. Thought you might have been following the entire thread. My bad. No response needed.

Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


This has nothing to do with what you asked, nor with what I wrote in response.

What are you talking about?

guillen4life13
04-07-2002, 11:00 PM
this is my personal opinion. yes, i am with the rest of you, and i say that i'd rather have jose at ss, and crede playing 3B. On the other hand, i believe that it's unfair to blame royce clayton for the failure of last year, and the progress made so far this year. this is the real truth:

last year, a career .319, 30-40 hr, 120-140 rbi guy, was lost for a good 142 games.

4/5 starting pitchers were all gone by the halfway point of the season with either injuries, or in one case, a trade. we were lucky that the only one who survived had ace caliber stuff, although at the time, he was the #5 starter.

3 1/2 (i consider bob howry's pitching performance last year a 1/2 of normal caliber campaign) relief pitchers were lost to injury by the 1/2 way point of the season (barcelo, wunsch, and osuna)

the whole offense did not really get going until the middle of may. while royce clayton was part of the problem, the only player on the team who was not to blame was probably paul konerko. yet, you must remember last may's (april's?) performance. yet he had a few game winners.

as for this year:

relief pitching has killed us so far. had they not blown the lead royce hit that homer, royce would have won us that game. i think that you must give him at least some credit for what he's done on this ballclub, and not make him the ultimate evil among evils.

just my humble opinion.

guillen4life13
04-07-2002, 11:10 PM
i would like to point out something about my last post. i'm sure many of you will understand this, but just to emphasize the point:

8 1/2 out of 11 pitchers were gone, i believe. the only ones left from the beginning were: buehrle, k wells, foulke, and half of bob howry. i might be wrong, but, i believe k wells and gary glover started out in the minors. if that's the case, then the pitchers left over from the beginning were:

lowe, foulke, half of howry, and buehrle. while that is a pretty good leftover, in terms of quality pitching (howry's the only weak spot), that still is pretty much the loss of a whole pitching staff.

pitchers gone:

david wells (screwed up back)
baldwin (trade)
eldred (elbow)
jim parque (labrum)
kelly wunsh (rotator cuff)
half of bob howry (i don't remember)
lorenzo barcelo (idk)
antonio osuna (labrum)

again, we can't blame royce clayton for the fact that more than 2/3 of our staff was injured. or can we? i just think you guys are being a tad unfair to him.

RichieRichAllen
04-07-2002, 11:33 PM
You'll get no argument from me, guillen4life. But it sure is fun to have a punching bag available when the going gets a little rough, isn't it?

I mean, hell...you can't blame all those guys you listed (plus a few you mighta' missed) for last year and this year's poor start, can 'ya? It would be almost like you had a hard on for the whole team. And that ain't right. We're Sox fans, correct?

Hey, I've got my favorites too. But if I relied strictly on emotion, Harold would still be DH'ing (c'mon man...you just gotta' get to 3000!). Sit down, Frank. Harold is still Mr. White Sox. Last year was just an aberation. Now batting, #3, Harrrold Baines. Uh-huh.

I dunno. I'm spent. I just get tired of the whining about Clayton. He ain't Alex or Nomar...but I never expected him to be. IMHO, the expectations placed on him are clearly out of whack.

PS- Now Ozzie...THERE was a shortstop, dude. If it weren't for those diminished skills of his, I'd sign him up and put him at SS. Oops...there goes those emotions agin'.

Originally posted by guillen4life13
[again, we can't blame royce clayton for the fact that more than 2/3 of our staff was injured. or can we? i just think you guys are being a tad unfair to him. [/B]

Mathew
04-08-2002, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13


again, we can't blame royce clayton for the fact that more than 2/3 of our staff was injured. or can we? i just think you guys are being a tad unfair to him.

I don't blame Clayton for us losing, I don't blame him for injuring every pitcher to don the uniform last year(I think the blame for that is pretty obvious.) I do certainly blame him for hitting as poorly as the blind alcoholics in my mom and dads beer league slow pitch games. As for Frank playing the field, statistically he has hit better when playing 1st, he wants to play many of the NL games, and he tries hard out there, how he was injured, other 1B types of his stardom don't dive for balls. Finally, a defensive shortstop doesn't have to hit like my grandmother. Hell I'd take one Rey Ordonez, over about 50 Clayton's combined, Rey Ordonez doesn't hit much better than I do, but come on, if you are a defensive specialist, why do you hit worse than Joey Hamilton?

Cheryl
04-08-2002, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Yes, Frank was horrible in the field, but that's to be expected. He's not a good fielder. He has said this numerous times, yet Manuel puts him out there. Frank does what he's told. Besides, he was the Sox offense today. Without him, they get shutout.


Just to be fair about this, I've also heard Thomas moan and whine about how he has to play in the field to keep his head in the game. It's hardly Manuel's fault Frank can't play a position.

Kilroy
04-08-2002, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Cheryl


Just to be fair about this, I've also heard Thomas moan and whine about how he has to play in the field to keep his head in the game. It's hardly Manuel's fault Frank can't play a position.

Really? I've never heard that from Thomas. In fact, I've heard quite the opposite. Him insisting that there's nothing to the stat that has him hitting better when he plays the field as opposed to DH. A couple years ago he waved at a grounder, turning it from what should have been an out in to a 2 run double, and after the game he said "that's why I shouldn't be out there." Do you have a reference for this whine?

As far as him being brutal yesterday, that may be. but no one should be complaining about his two errors. All 9 runs the Royals scored were earned. Basically, I don't give a damn because his errors didn't make any real difference. Kinda like when someone did the examination of Jose's 36 errors in 2K to show how they didn't matter,

PaleHoseGeorge
04-08-2002, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Cheryl
It's hardly Manuel's fault Frank can't play a position.

Sure he can. It's called designated hitter. :smile:

This is the thirtieth season for the DH, and there are still lots of baseball fans who don't think it's legitimate. You can thank Bowie Kuhn for stumbling baseball into this predicament, hiding in his office, allowing the two leagues to make their own rules regarding the position. "It's a league matter," ought to go down in baseball infamy, right next to Ford Frick's asterisk.

Please decide whether to keep the DH or do away with it once and for all. Now that A.L. and N.L. teams meet regularly, this whole matter has become a farce.

Why am I sure this issue will be decided on the one criteria that guides every decision Bud and his fellow baseball owner barnicles make.

:tool
"It's in the best interest of baseball to get rid of the best-paid group of athletes in the league."

guillen4life13
04-08-2002, 09:05 PM
really, i mean, nardi's already a punching bag, but he's secondary.

listen: royce hit something like .263, 9 hr last year. that is by no means bad. is it great? not a chance. but he did more than expected, even when you factor in his awful start. while i have no doubt that a regular jose valentin and herbert perry playing the left side of the IF is better than the clayton-valentin tandem... clayton was traded here. whose fault is that?

really, the punching bags on this team, are nardi, and lenny.