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esbrechtel
08-16-2007, 02:29 PM
For the past few years I have been on this site many fans have been very critical of the team and players on the team (now more than ever since the sox have started their downward spiral) However, one player seems to be not getting much criticism....Danny Richar. His defense is very good but he has been awful at the plate, his BA is .162...Is he our everyday 2b next year or do you think he needs some more polishing in AAA?

Sargeant79
08-16-2007, 02:33 PM
The jury is still out on him, and he looks more comfortable at the plate than a lot of other guys the Sox have called up in the last couple years. Last time I checked a couple of days ago, his OBP was around .320. He's not hitting particularly well, but his plate discipline is way ahead of most rookies. He generally doesn't swing at bad pitches. Pitchers have made adjustments since his first week and now it's his turn to do the same. If he does, he'll be the starting second baseman in 2008. But we probably need another month at least to see that.

salty99
08-16-2007, 02:34 PM
Right now it looks like AAA, but we dont' have any other options do we?

Tragg
08-16-2007, 05:57 PM
Good gracious, he's been up a month.
By all means, let's start beating on him - that's the tradition

Actually his OBP is about the same as Owens' and a mere 10 points less than the Ozzie's .400 hitter, and 30+ points better than Cintron's.
It's not very good but it's also safe to say there there is nothing to be lost by putting him at 2nd and leaving him alone. He can also work the count better than most hitters on this team - I hope he doesn't lose that skill.

esbrechtel
08-16-2007, 06:02 PM
Good gracious, he's been up a month.
By all means, let's start beating on him - that's the tradition

Actually his OBP is about the same as Owens' and a mere 10 points less than the Ozzie's .400 hitter, and 30+ points better than Cintron's.
It's not very good but it's also safe to say there there is nothing to be lost by putting him at 2nd and leaving him alone. He can also work the count better than most hitters on this team - I hope he doesn't lose that skill.
Im not saying we should be "beating on him" but comon...BA was ripped to shreads not too long in his first starting role....

oeo
08-16-2007, 06:04 PM
For the past few years I have been on this site many fans have been very critical of the team and players on the team (now more than ever since the sox have started their downward spiral) However, one player seems to be not getting much criticism....Danny Richar. His defense is very good but he has been awful at the plate, his BA is .162...Is he our everyday 2b next year or do you think he needs some more polishing in AAA?

Sounds like someone is just looking at statistics and not watching is ABs. If you did, you would see how comfortable he looks up there and the way he can work the count. The hits haven't come yet, but they will...I like what I've seen so far.

esbrechtel
08-16-2007, 06:07 PM
Sounds like someone is just looking at statistics and not watching is ABs. If you did, you would see how comfortable he looks up there and the way he can work the count. The hits haven't come yet, but they will...I like what I've seen so far.
That is a pretty bold statement coming from someone who doesnt know me very well...I have seen his ABs and watch the Sox an awful lot...I just was wondering what people were thinking about him after seeing him for a month and am surprised that no one has complained about him.

JB98
08-16-2007, 06:16 PM
Im not saying we should be "beating on him" but comon...BA was ripped to shreads not too long in his first starting role....

He's light years ahead of BA. He makes contact regularly and works counts. Keep trotting him out there the rest of the year and see what happens....

MarySwiss
08-16-2007, 06:19 PM
Well, it is kind of surprising given the number of people who post here that no one's piled on, but as for me, I agree with most of the others. I think he looks comfortable and he also seems to be aggressive and have some decent speed.

upperdeckusc
08-16-2007, 06:25 PM
He's light years ahead of BA. He makes contact regularly and works counts. Keep trotting him out there the rest of the year and see what happens....

with his ab's, there are good things and bad things:
bad things: he seems to get 2 strikes on him awfully quick, possibly from letting 1st pitch fastballs right down the middle go by. now im not saying you should ALWAYS swing at the 1st pitch if its right there like AJ, but its hard to be successful when your always down 0-2/1-2.
good things: even with this in mind, he ALWAYS works his way back to 3-2. he has shown a great eye, and has fouled off some tough pitches. as people have mentioned, all it would taked is an offspeed pitch away or down in the zone to take care of BA...not exactly the case with richar. before piling up a good amount of K's lately, richar was never striking out, which is good to see from a youngster.

i have alot of hope for this kid that he can, at least, bat .250, get on base around .340, and play solid D, next yr. hopefully he can exceed some of those numbers, but i think those are fair numbers to expect in '08 if he has the starting job.

getonbckthr
08-16-2007, 06:34 PM
He is a rookie
He is a rookie
He is a rookie
He is a rookie
He is a rookie
He is a rookie

JB98
08-16-2007, 06:36 PM
with his ab's, there are good things and bad things:
bad things: he seems to get 2 strikes on him awfully quick, possibly from letting 1st pitch fastballs right down the middle go by. now im not saying you should ALWAYS swing at the 1st pitch if its right there like AJ, but its hard to be successful when your always down 0-2/1-2.
good things: even with this in mind, he ALWAYS works his way back to 3-2. he has shown a great eye, and has fouled off some tough pitches. as people have mentioned, all it would taked is an offspeed pitch away or down in the zone to take care of BA...not exactly the case with richar. before piling up a good amount of K's lately, richar was never striking out, which is good to see from a youngster.

i have alot of hope for this kid that he can, at least, bat .250, get on base around .340, and play solid D, next yr. hopefully he can exceed some of those numbers, but i think those are fair numbers to expect in '08 if he has the starting job.

Even though he's struggling, I don't see the deer-in-the-headlights thing I've seen with some other young players we've called up. I think he'll make the adjustment. We'll just see how he progresses the final 42 games.

skobabe8
08-16-2007, 06:54 PM
I like him. He filled up the box score today. I was kinda mad he wasnt savvy enough to drop that liner hit to him in the 10th to turn 2. Then of course, the walk off! :tongue:

TomBradley72
08-16-2007, 07:04 PM
Anyone hitting .162 after being up a month deserves scrutiny (the same way a starting CF on a defending World Series Champion hitting below .200 deserved scrutiny a year ago)...but a hot week or two...and that average could change quickly. Keep putting him out there through the end of the year. Make a decision in the offseason.

Lots of signs we are becoming a mediocre franchise again....John Danks (6-10,5.22), Owens (.256) and Richar (.162) are some of the jewels of our youth movement. I like their potential..but the numbers (other than Fields) don't support any optimism for our near term outlook. KW needs to move heaven and earth in the off season for us to contend in 2008.

JB98
08-16-2007, 07:11 PM
Anyone hitting .162 after being up a month deserves scrutiny (the same way a starting CF on a defending World Series Champion hitting below .200 deserved scrutiny a year ago)...but a hot week or two...and that average could change quickly. Keep putting him out there through the end of the year. Make a decision in the offseason.

Lots of signs we are becoming a mediocre franchise again....John Danks (6-10,5.22), Owens (.256) and Richar (.162) are some of the jewels of our youth movement. I like their potential..but the numbers (other than Fields) don't support any optimism for our near term outlook. KW needs to move heaven and earth in the off season for us to contend in 2008.

Heaven, earth and Uribe. :tongue:

oeo
08-16-2007, 07:15 PM
I like him. He filled up the box score today. I was kinda mad he wasnt savvy enough to drop that liner hit to him in the 10th to turn 2. Then of course, the walk off! :tongue:

It was hit right at him, he actually almost fell. Plus, that's a risky play...there's no guarantee Uribe actually makes a good turn.

kittle42
08-16-2007, 07:18 PM
He is a rookie
He is a rookie
He is a rookie
He is a rookie
He is a rookie
He is a rookie

So's Ryan Braun. Can't we have one of those sometime?

seventytwo
08-16-2007, 07:23 PM
So's Ryan Braun. Can't we have one of those sometime?

Sure, when we pick 5th overall. Which, come to think of it, could be next June.

JermaineDye05
08-16-2007, 07:35 PM
Dropping a liner to turn two, I hardly ever see that. There's many reasons why he didn't do that, 1) he's a rookie, it was the 10th inning with the game on the line and the ball was hit right to him your instincts tell you to make the out there. 2) the infield was in with a liner right to Danny I don't know if you really have time to turn 2 since you need to wait for Juan to get to the bag then for him to fire to first and get Murphy out, a pretty risky play. Also it's a bit bush league as it's almost like the infield fly, dropping the ball on purpose just to turn a double play. I really don't blame Danny for just making the out there.

Frater Perdurabo
08-16-2007, 07:41 PM
Even though he's struggling, I don't see the deer-in-the-headlights thing I've seen with some other young players we've called up.

Serious question - do you think it's because he's the product of, and got coaching in, another organization?

JB98
08-16-2007, 07:51 PM
Serious question - do you think it's because he's the product of, and got coaching in, another organization?

That's hard to say. It is interesting to note, though, that Danks seems to handle adversity well for a young player, and he is also the product of another organization.

I definitely think we have issues with player development. This organization was counting on reloading the outfield from within, and I can't say for certain that's going to happen at this point. Anderson has had two tough years in a row. I'm lukewarm on Owens, and Sweeney really hasn't done anything to distinguish himself this year.

FedEx227
08-16-2007, 08:55 PM
Ugh...

why did you make this thread?

If you can't see the potential Richar has shown at the plate then you should really stop watching baseball.

He's seeing an average of 4.2 pitches per plate apperance, easily one of the top on the team. Only Andy Gonzalez and Brian Anderson have more.

He's playing GREAT defense at 2B, he's had a couple hiccups here and there, but nothing that I would be too worried about.

Yes, he's only batting .162, but is getting on-base at a .295 clip. That's great for only 13 games played. Considering he's in the middle of the pack with our team at that number despite batting only .162 is saying alot. That even when he's not on, which he hasn't fully been, he can still contribute to this offense.

The hitting will come, but honestly, why must be throw every young player under the bus 13 games into their big league careers.

If White Sox were running organizations we would have designated 19-year old A-Rod for assignment after a .207/.241 stint in 1994.

getonbckthr
08-16-2007, 08:59 PM
So's Ryan Braun. Can't we have one of those sometime?
Thats the problem we see kids like Braun and Pujols and they just mash from the get go however to expect that is rediculous.

JUribe1989
08-16-2007, 10:14 PM
I mean there is only so much you can say about Richar taking pitches and having good at-bats. I've watched every single game Richar has played with. The bottom line is that you can't really argue with a .171 batting average. I know he's a rookie, and we just fired our Director of Scouting, but I mean look around the league at nearly every team who has some player in their everyday lineup that they have called up and has had major success.

AL East
Boston Red Sox - Dustin Pedroia (.324, 5 home runs, 24 years old)
New York Yankees - Shelley Duncan (.317, 6 home runs, 28 years old, Melky Cabrera (.297, 8 home runs, 23 years old)
Toronto Blue Jays - Aaron Hill (.270, 12 home runs, 62 RBI, 25 years old)
Baltimore Orioles - Nick Markakis (.300, 11 home runs, 74 RBI, 24 years old)
Tampa Bay Devil Rays - Delmon Young (.293, 9 home runs, 64 RBI, 22 years old), BJ Upton (.317, 16 home runs, 23 years old)

AL Central
Cleveland Indians - Franklin Gutierrez (.283, 8 home runs, 24 years old), Grady Sizemore (.278, 20 home runs, 25 years old)
Detroit Tigers - Ryan Raburn (.333, 3 home runs, 26 years old), Curtis Granderson (.294, 16 home runs, 26 years old)
Minnesota Twins - Joe Mauer (.305, 5 home runs, 24 years old)
Chicago White Sox - Danny Richar (.171, 24 years old), Josh Fields (.250, 13 home runs, 25 years old), Andy Gonzalez (.223, 2 home runs, 26 years old), Jerry Owens (.249, 17 stolen bases, 26 years old)
Kansas City Royals - Mark Teahen (.286, 6 home runs, 26 years old), Billy Butler (.302, 34 RBI, 21 years old)

AL West
Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim - Casey Kotchman (.301, 9 home runs, 24 years old), Reggie Willits (.304, 25 stolen bases, 26 years old)
Seattle Mariners - Yuniesky Betancourt (.291, 8 home runs, 25 years old), Jose Lopez (.261, 8 home runs, 50 RBI, 24 years old, great 2006)
Oakland A's - Kurt Suzuki (.255, 4 home runs, obviously he can hit us), Travis Buck (.287, 7 home runs, 24 years old)
Texas Rangers - Ian Kinsler (.255, 15 home runs, 42 RBI, 25 years old), Jarrod Saltalamacchia (.253, 4 home runs, 22 years old)

NL East
New York Mets - Jose Reyes (.303, 9 home runs, 58 stolen bases, 24 years old), Lastings Milledge (.314, 3 home runs, 22 years old)
Atlanta Braves - Yunel Escobar (.323, 1 home run, 25 years old), Brian McCann (.272, 12 home runs, 67 RBI, 23 years old), Kelly Johnson (.293, 13 home runs, 60 RBI, 25 years old), Jeff Francouer (.307, 14 home runs, 76 RBI, 23 years old)
Philadelphia Phillies - Ryan Howard (.264, 33 home runs, 97 RBI, 27 years old)
Florida Marlins - Jeremy Hermida (.261, 10 home runs, 23 years old), Hanley Ramirez (.343, 21 home runs, 61 RBI, 37 stolen bases, 23 years old), Miguel Cabrera (.336, 29 home runs, 86 RBI, 24 years old)
Washington Nationals - Ryan Zimmerman (.266, 18 home runs, 23 years old)

NL Central
Milwaukee Brewers - Corey Hart (.273, 18 home runs, 25 years old), Ryan Braun (.346, 23 home runs, 23 years old), Prince Fielder (.284, 37 home runs, 23 years old), JJ Hardy (.270, 20 home runs, 24 years old)
Chicago Cubs - Matt Murton (.268, 4 home runs, 25 years old), Mike Fontenot (.291, 3 home runs, 27 years old), Ryan Theriot (.288, 3 home runs, 27 years old)
St. Louis Cardinals - Yadier Molina (.279, 3 home runs, NLCS-winning HR, 25 years old), Chris Duncan (.273, 20 home runs, 26 years old), Brendan Ryan (.333, 3 home runs, 25 years old)
Houston Astros - Hunter Pence (.330, 12 home runs, 45 RBI, 24 years old)
Cincinnati Reds - Josh Hamilton (.288, 15 home runs, 26 years old), Edwin Encarnacion (.264, 8 home runs, 24 years old), Brandon Phillips (.270, 21 home runs, 26 years old)
Pittsburgh Pirates - Jose Castillo (.263, 26 years old), Jose Bautista (We traded him to prevent Minnesota from getting Kris Benson in '04, .259, 8 home runs, 26 years old)

NL West
Arizona Diamondbacks - Justin Upton (.273, 19 years old), Chris Young (.231, 21 home runs, 23 years old), Conor Jackson (.273, 9 home runs, 25 years old)
San Diego Padres - Adrian Gonzalez (.265, 19 home runs, 25 years old)
Colorado Rockies - Matt Holliday (.338, 21 home runs, 93 RBI, 27 years old), Troy Tulowitzki (.283, 15 home runs, 22 years old)
Los Angeles Dodgers - Matt Kemp (.321, 7 home runs, 22 yeras old), James Loney (.317, 5 home runs, 23 years old), Andre Ethier (.300, 9 home runs, 25 years old)
San Francisco Giants - Dan Ortmeier (.260, 3 home runs, 26 years old)

With the exception of Chris Young, every one of these guys has a better average than any of or "young guns" or "call-ups" or whatever you want to call them. It's just incredible how we haven't called up any great hitters in the last 15 years besides maybe Big Frank, El Caballo, Maggs, and maybe a few more guys.

FedEx227
08-16-2007, 10:36 PM
I mean there is only so much you can say about Richar taking pitches and having good at-bats. I've watched every single game Richar has played with. The bottom line is that you can't really argue with a .171 batting average. I know he's a rookie, and we just fired our Director of Scouting, but I mean look around the league at nearly every team who has some player in their everyday lineup that they have called up and has had major success.


Actually you can. Who cares if you have a .171 batting average, if you get on first base with a walk or hit what's the difference?

But if your point is the sad state of our minor league system then I totally agree. Quit that "we never draft high" crap. David Wright was a first round sandwich pick, Pujols wasn't a special pick, it's about the willingness to take risks and general scouting.

esbrechtel
08-17-2007, 07:31 AM
Ugh...

why did you make this thread?

If you can't see the potential Richar has shown at the plate then you should really stop watching baseball.

The hitting will come, but honestly, why must be throw every young player under the bus 13 games into their big league careers.

If White Sox were running organizations we would have designated 19-year old A-Rod for assignment after a .207/.241 stint in 1994.

I made this tread because I think Richar would benefit from one year at AAA instead of starting next season...

I never said he did not have potential and that is extremely insulting to say that "you should stop watching baseball" and is uncalled for....

That being said I am not throwing Richar "under the bus" (worst saying ever) All I am saying is I do not think he is fully polished maybe by next season, after having a few more ML games under his belt he would be better but I was just wondering what the WSIers thought about him and where he should play next season...

skobabe8
08-17-2007, 09:07 AM
Dropping a liner to turn two, I hardly ever see that. There's many reasons why he didn't do that, 1) he's a rookie, it was the 10th inning with the game on the line and the ball was hit right to him your instincts tell you to make the out there. 2) the infield was in with a liner right to Danny I don't know if you really have time to turn 2 since you need to wait for Juan to get to the bag then for him to fire to first and get Murphy out, a pretty risky play. Also it's a bit bush league as it's almost like the infield fly, dropping the ball on purpose just to turn a double play. I really don't blame Danny for just making the out there.

I know, I know. I don't blame him for catching the liner at all. I just thought it would have been a great move to at least knock it down and take a look at 2. The runner on first is going no where on a line drive like that so theres plenty of time. I didnt see where Uribe was positioned, but I'm sure he beats the runner to the bag. Worst comes to worst, you throw to first to get the batter anyway. Its something I can see Omar Vizquel doing, and I dont think its "bush" in the least. And of course, the game ends on the next batter afetr that. I'm not going to be an idiot and blame Richar for not dropping a ball like that. I'm just saying it would have been a serious heads up play.

WhiteSox5187
08-17-2007, 10:21 AM
At times he's impressed me, other times, no...so in short, he's a rookie. I think he'll be a good solid player in his career (maybe not NEXT year, but three years down the line, yea). He should certainly finish out the year (if we could get him at short for a couple of games, that would be nice) up here as our starter and then decide going into the offseason. But as of right now, I would say that we're ok at second base.

kittle42
08-17-2007, 10:35 AM
I mean there is only so much you can say about Richar taking pitches and having good at-bats. I've watched every single game Richar has played with. The bottom line is that you can't really argue with a .171 batting average. I know he's a rookie, and we just fired our Director of Scouting, but I mean look around the league at nearly every team who has some player in their everyday lineup that they have called up and has had major success.

[SNIP]



This is one of the best posts on the site in a long time. Our minor league system is a joke and very few, if any, of these "can't-miss" guys KW has had have done jack squat.

FedEx227
08-17-2007, 04:52 PM
I made this tread because I think Richar would benefit from one year at AAA instead of starting next season...

I never said he did not have potential and that is extremely insulting to say that "you should stop watching baseball" and is uncalled for....

That being said I am not throwing Richar "under the bus" (worst saying ever) All I am saying is I do not think he is fully polished maybe by next season, after having a few more ML games under his belt he would be better but I was just wondering what the WSIers thought about him and where he should play next season...

Yeah my fault for saying that stop watching baseball stuff, I actually had a similar argument with a friend before that so it kind of carried over.

Personally, I think guys don't get MLB ready in AAA. But if we can find a top-tier 2B in FA or trade I'd definitely say do it, but if hes our in-house replacement I'm more than happy with that.

RowanDye
08-17-2007, 11:58 PM
I mean there is only so much you can say about Richar taking pitches and having good at-bats. I've watched every single game Richar has played with. The bottom line is that you can't really argue with a .171 batting average. I know he's a rookie, and we just fired our Director of Scouting, but I mean look around the league at nearly every team who has some player in their everyday lineup that they have called up and has had major success.
[snip is how it's done]


Good post, and I agree with your general point that our farm system looks bad right now, but it's not like we passed on a lot of those guys. They weren't available.

How many of those teams have won a World Series since the guys you mention have been drafted, 6 or 7 including us? How many of those teams have even contended in their division since then?

KW gave away Chris Young because he was trying to win another ring in '06, I can't fault him for that.

We haven't drafted well, and the few good position players we've had haven't worked out, I get it, but the fact that we haven't had high draft picks is not a moot point.

All it takes is one Pujols, Reyes, Ramirez, Braun, etc. and your farm system is suddenly elite. So rejoice draft fans, this might be our year!

SoxxoS
08-18-2007, 10:07 AM
KW gave away Chris Young because he was trying to win another ring in '06, I can't fault him for that.



And the guy we got for him is a top 15 pitcher in the AL and RIGHT NOW would not be traded for Chris Young.

And the funny thing is, the DBacks would trade back Young for Vazquez in a heartbeat. (Their #2 pitcher is Livan Hernandez for the upcoming playoffs if they get in.)

oeo
08-18-2007, 10:18 AM
I mean there is only so much you can say about Richar taking pitches and having good at-bats. I've watched every single game Richar has played with. The bottom line is that you can't really argue with a .171 batting average.

Sure you can. You say you've watched all his ABs...then you have to like what you've seen from him. He's batting .182, but he also has an OBP of .308. He's walked more than he's struck out. The hits are going to come.

I think if there's one thing he really needs to work on, it's stealing bases. He's incredibly fast, but from what I've seen/heard, he can't use that speed.

Malgar 12
08-18-2007, 10:26 AM
t's just incredible how we haven't called up any great hitters in the last 15 years besides maybe Big Frank, El Caballo, Maggs, and maybe a few more guys.

Its not incredible. It is plain logic. If you except every good hitter they've produced, then of course, "we haven't called up any great hitters."

There are plenty of reasons to be concerned about the state of the Sox current Farm system, but this argument is nonsense.

jabrch
08-18-2007, 11:00 AM
KW gave away Chris Young because he was trying to win another ring in '06, I can't fault him for that.


No, KW didn't "Give Chris Young away"

He trade Young to get a guy with a 3.74/1.12/.237 line in a hitters park who was under control for a few years. We could flip Javy today for a better prospect than Chris Young was at the time. (.267/.358/.501 in the minors)

champagne030
08-18-2007, 12:38 PM
KW gave away Chris Young because he was trying to win another ring in '06, I can't fault him for that.

We haven't drafted well, and the few good position players we've had haven't worked out, I get it, but the fact that we haven't had high draft picks is not a moot point.



You forgot El Duque and Luis Vizcaino were also included in the deal. I don't know if Young would have produced the same numbers last season, but we would have made the playoffs had he done so and we hadn't made the trade.

Hopefully if KW trades Garland to improve other areas he'll won't settle for Gio and Floyd.

Malgar 12
08-18-2007, 01:14 PM
You forgot El Duque and Luis Vizcaino were also included in the deal. I don't know if Young would have produced the same numbers last season, but we would have made the playoffs had he done so and we hadn't made the trade.

How so?

RockJock07
08-18-2007, 02:04 PM
Richar has nothing to prove at AAA, he ripped it up down there, as many have said, he's a rookie, 13 games in, he needs more time as does Josh and Sweeney before we really say what this player is.

As far as a farm system goes, Milwaukee should have a good farm system when they are picking in the top 10 for the past 5-8 years. Our system is average, teams like both LA's, Houston, Boston are good and pick towards the back end of the first round and find gems, everywhere, the Sox aren't awful but far from acceptable. Kenny drafts TONS of pitchers every year, I can't fault him for that, the right mix of home grown talent and smart FA pickups wins rings.

Tragg
08-18-2007, 02:35 PM
And the guy we got for him is a top 15 pitcher in the AL and RIGHT NOW would not be traded for Chris Young.

And the funny thing is, the DBacks would trade back Young for Vazquez in a heartbeat.
I'm not sure you right, but it's an interesting proposition. And you might be right.

It's a natural thing to discuss - we got a good pitcher BUT CF is the biggest hole on our team, that gets wider every year, with no prospects for improvement any time soon.

jabrch
08-18-2007, 02:46 PM
BUT CF is the biggest hole on our team, that gets wider every year, with no prospects for improvement any time soon.

I'm not sure how you can possibly say that. We have had MANY prospects for improvement. Young, BA, Sweeney AND Owens were all prospects to improve CF. I'm not sure anyone can conclude yet that any of them will ever amount to anything or will never amount to anything.

Prospects we have - results we are missing.

Tragg
08-18-2007, 03:00 PM
I'm not sure how you can possibly say that. We have had MANY prospects for improvement. Young, BA, Sweeney AND Owens were all prospects to improve CF. I'm not sure anyone can conclude yet that any of them will ever amount to anything or will never amount to anything.

Prospects we have - results we are missing.

I meant prospects as a synonym for "chances" not really talking specifically about minor league prospects. Also note the present tense, which excludes young from discussion.

But, looking at the specific player prospects

BA - I don't see him getting another chance. And even if he does, it won't be soon.

Sweeney - where is he? If he were a prospect for improvment in our CF play sometime soon, he'd be up here now. It doesn't mean he's not a top prospect in terms of talent. It means, someone doesn't think he can help us anytime soon.

Owens - here's a young player that Ozzie is giving an extended look. To erase our hole in CF, he nees to raise his OBP 60 points and gain some arm strength. Do you see that happening?

jabrch
08-18-2007, 03:56 PM
But, looking at the specific player prospects

BA - I don't see him getting another chance. And even if he does, it won't be soon.

Sweeney - where is he? If he were a prospect for improvment in our CF play sometime soon, he'd be up here now. It doesn't mean he's not a top prospect in terms of talent. It means, someone doesn't think he can help us anytime soon.

Owens - here's a young player that Ozzie is giving an extended look. To erase our hole in CF, he nees to raise his OBP 60 points and gain some arm strength. Do you see that happening?

BA has a chance every day once he is healthy. He needs to take advantage of it. He did not take advante of his chance when he got sent down before getting hurt. Brian will get a chance again when he is off the DL (either in Charlotte or in Chicago. And the same will be true next season. Eventually BA needs to take advantage of his chances. But it is inaccurate to say he isn't getting chances. It's more accurate to say he continues to sqander them.

Nobody from the club has indicated the things about Sweeney that you are. Maybe they want him to continue to develop and get ABs every day in the minors - and that they don't want him here getting sporadic ABs? From your posts, you keep suggesting we bring up guys and develop them here. I'd like to see us bring up guys who are more developed, and Sweeney could do thati thi minors.

He's our CF option because we had no other choice when Erstad and BA were iboth hurt. He's earned the right to stay. Can he raise his OBP to .350? I don't see any reason why he can't. He's got the talent to do it. Will he? That's a different story.

Tragg
08-18-2007, 05:16 PM
From your posts, you keep suggesting we bring up guys and develop them here. I'd like to see us bring up guys who are more developed, and Sweeney could do thati thi minors.

He's our CF option because we had no other choice when Erstad and BA were iboth hurt. He's earned the right to stay. Can he raise his OBP to .350? I don't see any reason why he can't. He's got the talent to do it. Will he? That's a different story. Considering we're out of it, we have the worst offense in the AL, the incumbents are awful, yea, I'd bring more hitters up. Sweeney's proven already he can hit AAA pitching. He's shown more than Owens did and I wonder why he isn't here. But he isn't, so he won't be our CF anytime soon (and that's all I said). And indeed, I am less than confident in the manager's interest in developing young players (i.e. is Sweeney not here because he isn't ready?); and listening to Williams this week preaching obp and taking pitches, I ask: are Williams and his coaching staff on the same page?

Owens has certainly been given an unfettered chance to earn the position; plays every day, the benefit of the 1 hole, etc....he should stay because the alternatives are terrible and we're out of it anyway. Slap hitting your way to a .300 OBP, however, is bad ML hitting. He doesn't work counts or demonstrate patience. He's got a long, long way to go offensively.

Richar has a higher OBP and OPS than does Owens, despite Ozzie batting him last and giving him no protection. He works counts, and has some patience. Has more power. Looks like a better hitting prospect to me than Owens.

I'm not enthralled with the CF free agents. Rowand is having a career year but he's not elite and can't hit leadoff, I like Hunter but he's overpriced.....none of them seem like great fits here. So I hope we can develop an outfielder.

delben91
08-18-2007, 05:31 PM
Owens has certainly been given an unfettered chance to earn the position; plays every day, the benefit of the 1 hole, etc....he should stay because the alternatives are terrible and we're out of it anyway. Slap hitting your way to a .300 OBP, however, is bad ML hitting. He doesn't work counts or demonstrate patience. He's got a long, long way to go offensively.

Richar has a higher OBP and OPS than does Owens, despite Ozzie batting him last and giving him no protection. He works counts, and has some patience. Has more power. Looks like a better hitting prospect to me than Owens.


I definitely agree on Richar, and I agree, for the moment on Owens. I haven't seen to many of the games, but from time to time I've seen him work the count for individual games. And I've seen him take what the pitcher gives him and occasionally hit it with authority the other way. This is not lighting the world on fire by any stretch, but if these are flashes of what he could eventually do, I think he has a chance to be at least a bottom of the order hitter, and an adequate left fielder. He spent most of college as a WR and came to baseball late, so it is feasible that he hasn't hit his developmental peak yet.

Then again, I could be full of ****. Wouldn't be the first time. :redface:

jabrch
08-18-2007, 05:34 PM
I ask: are Williams and his coaching staff on the same page?

Knowing KW - they are. If they weren't, it would be addressed.

Owens has certainly been given an unfettered chance to earn the position

The same chance BA already had. The same chance Sweeney would have if he were ready.

he should stay because the alternatives are terrible and we're out of it anyway. Slap hitting your way to a .300 OBP, however, is bad ML hitting. He doesn't work counts or demonstrate patience. He's got a long, long way to go offensively.

He's been showing progress in terms of hitting over the past two months. You don't like his style - that's clear. But baseball people around the league, since the game was invented, have believed there is room for guys who are fast who can make it to 1B faster than the ball even if they don't hit the ball to the moon. Juan Pierre is a classic example. Going from your posts, I assume you wouldn't want a guy like Pierre on your team (not talking about salary - talking about his style of play). I don't think you will ever like Owens - he's not your style. That's fine. There are a lot of people who think that a slap hitter who can get on base at a .350 clip and then run the bases well can be a very effective leadoff hitter. (Now the question is - Can JO get to a .350ish obp ?)

Richar has a higher OBP and OPS than does Owens, despite Ozzie batting him last and giving him no protection. He works counts, and has some patience. Has more power. Looks like a better hitting prospect to me than Owens.

Richar does not project to lead off. He may project to be a #2 or a #9, but he doesn't look like a leadoff hitter.

I'm not enthralled with the CF free agents. Rowand is having a career year but he's not elite and can't hit leadoff, I like Hunter but he's overpriced.....none of them seem like great fits here. So I hope we can develop an outfielder.

That I agree with 100%. I wouldn't pay the price these guys will want (15mm for Hunter/Jones and 10mm for Rowand)

JB98
08-18-2007, 06:00 PM
Considering we're out of it, we have the worst offense in the AL, the incumbents are awful, yea, I'd bring more hitters up. Sweeney's proven already he can hit AAA pitching. He's shown more than Owens did and I wonder why he isn't here. But he isn't, so he won't be our CF anytime soon (and that's all I said). And indeed, I am less than confident in the manager's interest in developing young players (i.e. is Sweeney not here because he isn't ready?); and listening to Williams this week preaching obp and taking pitches, I ask: are Williams and his coaching staff on the same page?

Owens has certainly been given an unfettered chance to earn the position; plays every day, the benefit of the 1 hole, etc....he should stay because the alternatives are terrible and we're out of it anyway. Slap hitting your way to a .300 OBP, however, is bad ML hitting. He doesn't work counts or demonstrate patience. He's got a long, long way to go offensively.

Richar has a higher OBP and OPS than does Owens, despite Ozzie batting him last and giving him no protection. He works counts, and has some patience. Has more power. Looks like a better hitting prospect to me than Owens.

I'm not enthralled with the CF free agents. Rowand is having a career year but he's not elite and can't hit leadoff, I like Hunter but he's overpriced.....none of them seem like great fits here. So I hope we can develop an outfielder.

Just a quick point about Sweeney: He's only hitting .266 in Charlotte, and that batting average has been on a steady decline. He's not healthy. He's just back off the DL. Perhaps now is not a great time to throw him out there against major-league pitchers.

I do think Ryan will be here in September. Hopefully, he gets his stroke back before the Knights' season ends.