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JermaineDye05
08-15-2007, 03:01 PM
Don't agree with the rotation, I highly doubt the Sox go into 2008 with Contreras AND Masset in the rotation, way too many question marks

Link (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/509010,141SPT3.article)

Mr.1Dog
08-15-2007, 03:07 PM
What about Fields? How can you not keep him up after the decent season he is having. As much as I love him Crede's days on the Sox should be over.

hose
08-15-2007, 03:09 PM
All right I'll throw this out there:

SS- Furcal * Dodgers swap contracts , get Contreras and a prospect
LF- Fields
DH- Thome
1b- Paulie
C- AJ
RF- Dye *resigned for 3 years
3b- Crede
CF- Rowland * FA
2b- Richar

SoxxoS
08-15-2007, 03:27 PM
If Masset is a starter on this team we are going to be back in 4th place. He shouldn't even be in the bullpen. He isn't good.

Hope he turns it around, but he has an awful long minor league history saying that that won't happen.

Mickster
08-15-2007, 03:31 PM
All right I'll throw this out there:

SS- Furcal * Dodgers swap contracts , get Contreras and a prospect
LF- Fields
DH- Thome
1b- Paulie
C- AJ
RF- Dye *resigned for 3 years
3b- Crede
CF- Rowland * FA
2b- Richar


Who is this "Rowland" person you speak of??? :tongue:

Noneck
08-15-2007, 03:34 PM
You can't let Fields play 1/2 year in AAA. It will ruin him.

Mr. White Sox
08-15-2007, 03:34 PM
Who is this "Rowland" person you speak of??? :tongue:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:c9DAFZz8AD8vhM:http://delivery.viewimages.com/xv/73713216.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26c%3DViewImages%26k%3D2%26d% 3D17A4AD9FDB9CF1932BBB80AB57C97602F1AF09F9A067E6AD 4854FFF91D748C6E
"I play better defense than ANYONE in CF!"

PalehosePlanet
08-15-2007, 03:36 PM
I agree w/Mr1Dog that there is absolutely no way you can keep Josh Fields out of the lineup. This kid is going to be a monster! I don't care if he's in LF but no way on the bench or in the minors.

And I also agree w/Hose that we should bring back JD for 3 years. He'll take less to stay; he's already said as much. I think 3/30 mil gets it done.

JermaineDye05
08-15-2007, 03:37 PM
If Masset is a starter on this team we are going to be back in 4th place. He shouldn't even be in the bullpen. He isn't good.

Hope he turns it around, but he has an awful long minor league history saying that that won't happen.

Isn't good? I beg to differ. Masset has the stuff and should be a pretty good starter, so far in Charlotte he's done well. In 7 games (5 starts) he's 0-2 with a 2.96 ERA and batters are hitting .202 against him. Masset has the pitches to make as a pretty good major league starter, I feel his stuff was wasted in the bullpen we saw how he did a lot better when pitching for 5+ innings (against Cleveland and the Cubs) than opposed to coming in for relief when he was just hammered.

oeo
08-15-2007, 03:45 PM
If Masset is a starter on this team we are going to be back in 4th place. He shouldn't even be in the bullpen. He isn't good.

Hope he turns it around, but he has an awful long minor league history saying that that won't happen.

His current statistics in AAA are proving you wrong.

russ99
08-15-2007, 03:55 PM
I completely disagree with the Garland deal. If the Sox trade Garland, they're going to have to get a lot more than Greene & Bell in return.

Outfield is the obvious place the Sox need a big upgrade. Carl Crawford's having a monster season and Tampa might deal him since his value is probably the highest it's going to be until he hits FA, so I'd deal Garland, a major leaguer and a few high prospects for him. Another guy I really like for the Sox outfield is Jason Bay. Not sure if the Pirates have any interest in dealing him, but one can hope. The Sox can also upgrade an corner outfield spot in FA with a younger and healthier player using the salary money that it would cost to retain an aging and declining Jermaine Dye.

I think the Sox can sign Eckstein relatively cheaply (6-8MM) for SS next year. Fields will be at 3B, since I have serious doubts (and the Sox should too) that Crede can play the field full time with his back condition.

Another point - if that relief corps the writer is proposing is in reality the Sox '08 bullpen, I'll be really shocked and we're in for another long season. I doubt Kenny will make the same mistakes next year with the pen.

kittle42
08-15-2007, 04:23 PM
His current statistics in AAA are proving you wrong.

Gavin Floyd's were pretty good, too.

JermaineDye05
08-15-2007, 04:26 PM
Gavin Floyd's were pretty good, too.

Nick has one thing Gavin doesn't, mound presence. Whenever Gavin is up there he looks so nervous, every time I saw Masset he looked as if he should have been there. Also, Nick doesn't throw nearly as many fastballs as Gavin, and he has more pitches then Gavin too.

oeo
08-15-2007, 04:26 PM
Gavin Floyd's were pretty good, too.

True, but different pitchers they are. One can't handle pressure, the other one (from what I've seen) can. And he's shown success multiple times up here (as well as at the end of 2006 with the Rangers), not just once or twice like Mr. Floyd.

And I still haven't given up on Floyd, either. He needs to harness that breaking ball first, though.

They're both guys with great stuff, and are both still relatively young. I don't understand how you can just say 'they suck' and that's it. There's still time for both.

AJ Hellraiser
08-15-2007, 04:44 PM
I think the silverlining here is that 2 months ago after getting swept by the Flubs, it looked like this team was in need of a complete roster overhaul and everyone could be gone....

Now, I'd say they need 1 new OF and a new SS plus 1 or 2 bullpen arms...

Owens, Fields and Richar have all played pretty well for rookies and the bullpen has been better of late

Now, the holes aren't as glaring.... that being said, I due expect Garland to get dealt because it will free up money and he's in his final year.. he will get a big return and he won't be getting the same money from the Sox that Buehrle got anyhow

Also, I do expect the Sox to spend pretty big... whether that means A-Rod or just legit players at each SS, OF and bullpen I don't know... but I am confident both Uncle Jerry and KW know this must turn around fast

The most important thing is the starting pitching is there to right the ship quickly... 1 good trade and a couple shrewd signings and I think things are good

SoxxoS
08-15-2007, 05:14 PM
His current statistics in AAA are proving you wrong.

Small sample size, maybe?

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Nick-Masset.shtml

He has pitched 659 innings, has a WHIP of 1.45 (bad) allowing more than a hit an inning.

He is a fringe major leaguer AT BEST - and will not be a sucessful starter. Please don't bring up that Cubs game were he pitched well - I was at that game front and center and watched Cub after Cub hit ropes off him right at people. That was definitely a lucky box score for Masset.

soxfanreggie
08-15-2007, 05:38 PM
We won't win with that rotation. I agree with MB, Danks, and Vaz, but the other two...not unless there is significant improvement.

Bullpen could be good if a couple guys return to form.

If Dye hasn't been dealt yet, I think there's a good chance we'll re-sign him. I don't think Kenny was looking for compensation picks out of him.

RCWHITESOX
08-15-2007, 06:11 PM
All right I'll throw this out there:

SS- Furcal * Dodgers swap contracts , get Contreras and a prospect
LF- Fields
DH- Thome
1b- Paulie
C- AJ
RF- Dye *resigned for 3 years
3b- Crede
CF- Rowland * FA
2b- Richar

Here's my lineup for what it's worth C AJ 1B Konerko 2B Hudson 3B Fields SS Greene LF Owens CF Rowand RF Dye SP Buehrle Vasquez Harang Saunders Danks Closer Jenks

Lip Man 1
08-15-2007, 06:11 PM
Phil Rogers also has some ideas on what the Sox off season could produce:

WHITE SOX

1. The list is deep at the position where the Sox would seem most motivated to add a free agent -- center field. Mike Cameron, who still looks in great shape at 34, is a reasonable fallback if Philadelphia keeps Aaron Rowand and pie-in-the-sky names Torii Hunter and Andruw Jones land elsewhere.

2. Unless Ken Williams pulls off a stunner and adds Alex Rodriguez, the chances of Juan Uribe sticking around are better than you might think. David Eckstein, Omar Vizquel and maybe Marco Scutaro are the only potentially signable players who could become regulars. Eckstein would be worth a run if the Cardinals let him get away but Williams will be in a tough spot because he has to make a decision on Uribe at the start of the offseason.

3. As usual, there will be a lot of relief pitchers available. The Sox need a veteran or two to add to their mix -- Luis Vizcaino, Joe Beimel, Scott Linebrink, Shawn Chacon -- but Jeremy Affeldt is the kind of guy who gets Williams' blood flowing. It's hard to see how Colorado can let him reach the market.

4. Yes, there's a chance the White Sox lose Joe Crede. Back surgery makes him an expensive gamble for a team that has an option available for $5 million less in Josh Fields. The decision on Crede doesn't have to be made until mid-December, however, and could come down to whether they have traded one of their four veteran starting pitchers.

5. The Detroit Tigers face an interesting decision with Craig Monroe, who could be priced out of his job, especially with Marcus Thames available as a cheaper alternative. He would be an interesting name for the White Sox. Ditto Bobby Abreu, but only if his price tag comes down a bunch. A versatile veteran like Endy Chavez, So Taguchi or Brad Wilkerson could fit in the outfield mix.

Lip

oeo
08-15-2007, 06:17 PM
Phil Rogers also has some ideas on what the Sox off season could produce:

WHITE SOX

1. The list is deep at the position where the Sox would seem most motivated to add a free agent -- center field. Mike Cameron, who still looks in great shape at 34, is a reasonable fallback if Philadelphia keeps Aaron Rowand and pie-in-the-sky names Torii Hunter and Andruw Jones land elsewhere.

2. Unless Ken Williams pulls off a stunner and adds Alex Rodriguez, the chances of Juan Uribe sticking around are better than you might think. David Eckstein, Omar Vizquel and maybe Marco Scutaro are the only potentially signable players who could become regulars. Eckstein would be worth a run if the Cardinals let him get away but Williams will be in a tough spot because he has to make a decision on Uribe at the start of the offseason.

3. As usual, there will be a lot of relief pitchers available. The Sox need a veteran or two to add to their mix -- Luis Vizcaino, Joe Beimel, Scott Linebrink, Shawn Chacon -- but Jeremy Affeldt is the kind of guy who gets Williams' blood flowing. It's hard to see how Colorado can let him reach the market.

4. Yes, there's a chance the White Sox lose Joe Crede. Back surgery makes him an expensive gamble for a team that has an option available for $5 million less in Josh Fields. The decision on Crede doesn't have to be made until mid-December, however, and could come down to whether they have traded one of their four veteran starting pitchers.

5. The Detroit Tigers face an interesting decision with Craig Monroe, who could be priced out of his job, especially with Marcus Thames available as a cheaper alternative. He would be an interesting name for the White Sox. Ditto Bobby Abreu, but only if his price tag comes down a bunch. A versatile veteran like Endy Chavez, So Taguchi or Brad Wilkerson could fit in the outfield mix.

Lip

Sorry, but Phil Rogers = moron. These are his fixes? Mike Cameron? :puking: Uribe, back? There are such things as trades, Mr. Rogers. Craig Monroe? Again...:puking: The Tigers wouldn't bring him back because he sucks...a lot.

Good thing the guy is wrong 9 out of every 10 times.

sox230
08-15-2007, 06:25 PM
Why does everybody seem to be wanting Owens more than Pods. I'm sorry. Owens hjas not proved to me that when healthy, has the ability to hit .300 at the major league level like pods can, and I haven't even seen him steal that many bases. I am so pissed that everyone is giving up on pods even though it wouldn't take that much to sign him and if he fails THEN you could try jerry owens.

Domeshot17
08-15-2007, 06:34 PM
I really dont expect us to spend big in the offseason. We don't really sign big FA's, thats not how Kenny Works. Add that Arod is a Boras client, and will get around 30 a year, and yah, no chance. I would more expect to see us make Trades, thats how Kenny works, not free agency. I could see us moving on a guy like Rowand, but not Jones-Hunter-Arod. The biggest FA Kenny has signed in the last few years is Dye, and he got him as a mid level FA who had a history of being talented but Injury prone, it wasn't like he was even a top 10 guy on the market at the time.

I could see a Furcal for Contreras swap but not sure Dodgers do it. I also am not a fan of Owens in the starting lineup. Even with his "hot streak" he is hitting in the .240-.255 area since the break, not good by any means. I think you keep Owens on the bench, and at best you Play him 3 times a week with Pods getting the other games. The problem with this though is its tough to have 2 lefties platoon together, so its kind of a jumbled mess. Im guessing Owens gets it because hes one of those mediocre guys Ozzie has fallen in love with.

hi im skot
08-15-2007, 06:40 PM
Phil Rogers also has some ideas on what the Sox off season could produce:

WHITE SOX

1. The list is deep at the position where the Sox would seem most motivated to add a free agent -- center field. Mike Cameron, who still looks in great shape at 34, is a reasonable fallback if Philadelphia keeps Aaron Rowand and pie-in-the-sky names Torii Hunter and Andruw Jones land elsewhere.

2. Unless Ken Williams pulls off a stunner and adds Alex Rodriguez, the chances of Juan Uribe sticking around are better than you might think. David Eckstein, Omar Vizquel and maybe Marco Scutaro are the only potentially signable players who could become regulars. Eckstein would be worth a run if the Cardinals let him get away but Williams will be in a tough spot because he has to make a decision on Uribe at the start of the offseason.

3. As usual, there will be a lot of relief pitchers available. The Sox need a veteran or two to add to their mix -- Luis Vizcaino, Joe Beimel, Scott Linebrink, Shawn Chacon -- but Jeremy Affeldt is the kind of guy who gets Williams' blood flowing. It's hard to see how Colorado can let him reach the market.

4. Yes, there's a chance the White Sox lose Joe Crede. Back surgery makes him an expensive gamble for a team that has an option available for $5 million less in Josh Fields. The decision on Crede doesn't have to be made until mid-December, however, and could come down to whether they have traded one of their four veteran starting pitchers.

5. The Detroit Tigers face an interesting decision with Craig Monroe, who could be priced out of his job, especially with Marcus Thames available as a cheaper alternative. He would be an interesting name for the White Sox. Ditto Bobby Abreu, but only if his price tag comes down a bunch. A versatile veteran like Endy Chavez, So Taguchi or Brad Wilkerson could fit in the outfield mix.

Lip

I, too, wouldn't be shocked if Uribe sticks around. If we make the right improvements, I don't think keeping him at short would be the worst thing for the Sox.

AJ Hellraiser
08-15-2007, 06:45 PM
Why does everybody seem to be wanting Owens more than Pods. I'm sorry. Owens hjas not proved to me that when healthy, has the ability to hit .300 at the major league level like pods can, and I haven't even seen him steal that many bases. I am so pissed that everyone is giving up on pods even though it wouldn't take that much to sign him and if he fails THEN you could try jerry owens.

Because most of us aren't sentimental to a fault and see players' shortcomings despite being part of the 2005 team... Pods continues to get older and can't be counted on to play over 100 games anymore.... therefore, if the sox count on him as a starting OFer and main source of speed then they just screw themselves yet again

I, for one, was upset when they brought him back this year in a starting role... No, I didn't know he would basically be hurt all year but I knew it was a distinct possibility and it's clear that he's slowing down on the basepaths

Jerry Owens is younger with fresher legs and will only get better at the plate.... If Pods wants to return as a 4th OFer or pinch-runner that's fine with me but if he's in the Sox starting OF in 2008 I expect much the same result as 2007

upperdeckusc
08-15-2007, 06:52 PM
Why does everybody seem to be wanting Owens more than Pods. I'm sorry. Owens hjas not proved to me that when healthy, has the ability to hit .300 at the major league level like pods can, and I haven't even seen him steal that many bases. I am so pissed that everyone is giving up on pods even though it wouldn't take that much to sign him and if he fails THEN you could try jerry owens.

-he's cheaper
-he doesnt get injured
-he's a better fielder and covers more ground than pods
-he hasn't been thrown out one time this yr stealing. he hasnt been able to steal as much cuz usually we're down by 6 or so when he gets on (and that's pointless) or we bunt him over to 2nd instead of straight steal him.
-he hasn't hit his prime yet and should get better with each at bat.

should i keep going??

JB98
08-15-2007, 07:01 PM
Whalen's projected roster would go 67-95 next year. Essentially, he took Garland, Dye and Uribe off the team, and added Sweeney, Masset and Greene. That roster is very similar to this year's.

Erstad, Cintron, Ozuna and Hall as a bench. LOL. Both Bukvich and Wasserman still hanging out in the bullpen. Please.

To suggest that Ryan Sweeney will get an everyday job next year while Josh Fields will not is ridiculous. Sweeney has done nothing to distinguish himself this year. Fields has.

kobo
08-15-2007, 07:04 PM
Why does everybody seem to be wanting Owens more than Pods. I'm sorry. Owens hjas not proved to me that when healthy, has the ability to hit .300 at the major league level like pods can, and I haven't even seen him steal that many bases. I am so pissed that everyone is giving up on pods even though it wouldn't take that much to sign him and if he fails THEN you could try jerry owens.
Owens isn't injury-prone like Pods. And 16/19 in stolen base attempts isn't enough for you?

upperdeckusc
08-15-2007, 07:15 PM
Whalen's projected roster would go 67-95 next year. Essentially, he took Garland, Dye and Uribe off the team, and added Sweeney, Masset and Greene. That roster is very similar to this year's.

Erstad, Cintron, Ozuna and Hall as a bench. LOL. Both Bukvich and Wasserman still hanging out in the bullpen. Please.

To suggest that Ryan Sweeney will get an everyday job next year while Josh Fields will not is ridiculous. Sweeney has done nothing to distinguish himself this year. Fields has.

I dont think i'd mind Wasserman that much in the bullpen. He's proven to be successful in the short amount of time he's been up here, and provides a different look from the other bullpen guys. And a month ago, I was probably the biggest Bukvich hater on here. But he has had recent success, can pump it up there pretty hard with a little movement, and maybe an offseason developing/strengthening his secondary pitches can make him tolerable. but dont get me wrong, if we can acquire a veteran bullpen arm, i'll take him anyday over bukvich.

JB98
08-15-2007, 07:21 PM
I dont think i'd mind Wasserman that much in the bullpen. He's proven to be successful in the short amount of time he's been up here, and provides a different look from the other bullpen guys. And a month ago, I was probably the biggest Bukvich hater on here. But he has had recent success, can pump it up there pretty hard with a little movement, and maybe an offseason developing/strengthening his secondary pitches can make him tolerable. but dont get me wrong, if we can acquire a veteran bullpen arm, i'll take him anyday over bukvich.

You could live with one of those guys as your 11th man on the pitching staff. Both of them? Pass.

kobo
08-15-2007, 07:26 PM
Outfield is the obvious place the Sox need a big upgrade. Carl Crawford's having a monster season and Tampa might deal him since his value is probably the highest it's going to be until he hits FA, so I'd deal Garland, a major leaguer and a few high prospects for him.


Unless Tampa Bay decides they want to take on about another $20 million in payroll, which I am going to assume they won't based on their history, this supposed deal will never happen. And why would you trade Garland and prospects for 1 guy? That's not an even trade.

WhiteSox5187
08-15-2007, 07:41 PM
-he's cheaper
-he doesnt get injured
-he's a better fielder and covers more ground than pods
-he hasn't been thrown out one time this yr stealing. he hasnt been able to steal as much cuz usually we're down by 6 or so when he gets on (and that's pointless) or we bunt him over to 2nd instead of straight steal him.
-he hasn't hit his prime yet and should get better with each at bat.

should i keep going??
Here's my problem with Owens, he doesn't get a whole lot of hits...add on top of that he's got a weak little swing and is gonna get a whole lot of bloops. I don't mind him coming off the bench, but he is NOT an everyday player. At Pods can hit the ball hard into the gap somewhere, Owens, not so much. He has a lot of speed but that doesn't do you a whole lot of good if you don't get on base...And trading Garland would be surrendering the season. He is a key part of our rotation...as for Fields, I think he has hit his way onto this team, but the problem is, well, he's lousy in the field. If we can get Crede back 100% healthy I would put him over at third and Josh in LF. I like the idea of Greene starting at short. So it sounds like our team defensively would line up like:

C AJ
1B Paulie
2B Richar
SS Greene
3B Crede
LF Fields
CF Rowand
RF Dye (?)

The problem is there isn't a whole of speed in that lineup...

soltrain21
08-15-2007, 07:45 PM
Here's my problem with Owens, he doesn't get a whole lot of hits...add on top of that he's got a weak little swing and is gonna get a whole lot of bloops. I don't mind him coming off the bench, but he is NOT an everyday player. At Pods can hit the ball hard into the gap somewhere, Owens, not so much. He has a lot of speed but that doesn't do you a whole lot of good if you don't get on base...And trading Garland would be surrendering the season. He is a key part of our rotation...as for Fields, I think he has hit his way onto this team, but the problem is, well, he's lousy in the field. If we can get Crede back 100% healthy I would put him over at third and Josh in LF. I like the idea of Greene starting at short. So it sounds like our team defensively would line up like:

C AJ
1B Paulie
2B Richar
SS Greene
3B Crede
LF Fields
CF Rowand
RF Dye (?)

The problem is there isn't a whole of speed in that lineup...


And WHO leads off in that lineup?

UserNameBlank
08-15-2007, 07:47 PM
Whalen's projected roster would go 67-95 next year. Essentially, he took Garland, Dye and Uribe off the team, and added Sweeney, Masset and Greene. That roster is very similar to this year's.

Erstad, Cintron, Ozuna and Hall as a bench. LOL. Both Bukvich and Wasserman still hanging out in the bullpen. Please.

To suggest that Ryan Sweeney will get an everyday job next year while Josh Fields will not is ridiculous. Sweeney has done nothing to distinguish himself this year. Fields has.
Take a step back from the Wassermann hate. Ehren is exactly what this team needs with the way Ozzie runs a bullpen.

Notice this year in the majors righties are hitting .038 against him. In Charlotte prior to his callup righties were hitting .186 against him. I can't find his BAA vs. RH for previous years, but he has a minor league career ERA of 2.34 and has given up only 5 home runs in professional baseball, which totals 260.2 innings.

I've liked this guy for a while now and I'm very glad he's finally gotten an opportunity. In fact I'd say out of everyone in our bullpen currently, with the exception of Jenks, Wassermann is probably the guy with the greatest chance to stick around the big leagues for a long time. He's a funky sidearmer who doesn't throw hard and can handle a large workload, as he has worked over 60 IP since his first full year of pro ball in 2004. Considering how cheap he is it would be a huge mistake for us to dump him. Whatever we could get for him in trade isn't going to be close to his worth to the team, and in order to get similar results vs. RH from a reliever with "sexier" stuff, we'd pay out the ass. Ehren should be a lock for next year's team. Bukvich OTOH is walking on thin ice every time he steps out there.

JB98
08-15-2007, 08:03 PM
Take a step back from the Wassermann hate. Ehren is exactly what this team needs with the way Ozzie runs a bullpen.

Notice this year in the majors righties are hitting .038 against him. In Charlotte prior to his callup righties were hitting .186 against him. I can't find his BAA vs. RH for previous years, but he has a minor league career ERA of 2.34 and has given up only 5 home runs in professional baseball, which totals 260.2 innings.

I've liked this guy for a while now and I'm very glad he's finally gotten an opportunity. In fact I'd say out of everyone in our bullpen currently, with the exception of Jenks, Wassermann is probably the guy with the greatest chance to stick around the big leagues for a long time. He's a funky sidearmer who doesn't throw hard and can handle a large workload, as he has worked over 60 IP since his first full year of pro ball in 2004. Considering how cheap he is it would be a huge mistake for us to dump him. Whatever we could get for him in trade isn't going to be close to his worth to the team, and in order to get similar results vs. RH from a reliever with "sexier" stuff, we'd pay out the ass. Ehren should be a lock for next year's team. Bukvich OTOH is walking on thin ice every time he steps out there.

I said we could live with either Bukvich or Wassermann as the last man on the pitching staff. Wassermann is a situational right-hander. He's like Takatsu. His command has to be impeccable for him to get outs. We'll see if he can hold up when the league adjusts to him.

If we're counting on him to be the main righty setup man or something like that next year, our bullpen is going to suck again. To me, the key to this whole thing is a healthy, effective Mike MacDougal. From the right side, you have Jenks, Mac, an offseason acquisition, and then you can live with either Bukvich or Wassermann as the last guy.

I don't want to see a bullpen with Bukvich, Wassermann AND Logan. All those guys are 11th man types.

UserNameBlank
08-15-2007, 08:24 PM
I said we could live with either Bukvich or Wassermann as the last man on the pitching staff. Wassermann is a situational right-hander. He's like Takatsu. His command has to be impeccable for him to get outs. We'll see if he can hold up when the league adjusts to him.

If we're counting on him to be the main righty setup man or something like that next year, our bullpen is going to suck again. To me, the key to this whole thing is a healthy, effective Mike MacDougal. From the right side, you have Jenks, Mac, an offseason acquisition, and then you can live with either Bukvich or Wassermann as the last guy.

I don't want to see a bullpen with Bukvich, Wassermann AND Logan. All those guys are 11th man types.
I see what you are saying then, but I wouldn't say Ehren's value is that of a "last man in the bullpen." There are specific roles in a bullpen that need to be filled. Ehren fits one of those roles very nicely.

Every good bullpen needs:
1. A reliable closer. We have that in Jenks.
2. Someone who can get lefties out situationally, typically in late inning pressure situations. We have that in Logan.
3. Someone who can get righties out situationally, again typically in late inning situations. We have that in Wassermann.
4. 2 relievers who can pitch full innings and get out both lefties and righties. We were supposed to have that this year in Thornton and MacDougal, although lefties have hit Thornton hard and MacDougal until recently has been terrible in general.
5. One reliable "utility man" type out of the bullpen who can pitch in any role, including long relief. IMO this has been our most glaring weakness in our pen since Vizcaino left after 2005. KW has failed to address this and apparently doesn't think this spot is very important. We need a veteran to fill this role.

IMO, if we get one reliable veteran major league arm to fill spot #5 and both MacDougal and Thornton put up better numbers next year we will have a very solid bullpen... so long as Ozzie doesn't mismanage it and use continue to use relievers who are capable of pitching a full inning as lefty/righty specialists, increasing the workload of other relievers.

Also on Shingo: the league didn't adjust to anything. Shingo couldn't find the plate and his stuff wasn't good enough to be thrown down the middle. Maybe it was a lack of confidence and the language/culture barrier made it hard to overcome, but whatever the case, Shingo-time became batting practice time. If he had his control however he would have been fine.

JB98
08-15-2007, 08:33 PM
I see what you are saying then, but I wouldn't say Ehren's value is that of a "last man in the bullpen." There are specific roles in a bullpen that need to be filled. Ehren fits one of those roles very nicely.

Every good bullpen needs:
1. A reliable closer. We have that in Jenks.
2. Someone who can get lefties out situationally, typically in late inning pressure situations. We have that in Logan.
3. Someone who can get righties out situationally, again typically in late inning situations. We have that in Wassermann.
4. 2 relievers who can pitch full innings and get out both lefties and righties. We were supposed to have that this year in Thornton and MacDougal, although lefties have hit Thornton hard and MacDougal until recently has been terrible in general.
5. One reliable "utility man" type out of the bullpen who can pitch in any role, including long relief. IMO this has been our most glaring weakness in our pen since Vizcaino left after 2005. KW has failed to address this and apparently doesn't think this spot is very important. We need a veteran to fill this role.

IMO, if we get one reliable veteran major league arm to fill spot #5 and both MacDougal and Thornton put up better numbers next year we will have a very solid bullpen... so long as Ozzie doesn't mismanage it and use continue to use relievers who are capable of pitching a full inning as lefty/righty specialists, increasing the workload of other relievers.

Also on Shingo: the league didn't adjust to anything. Shingo couldn't find the plate and his stuff wasn't good enough to be thrown down the middle. Maybe it was a lack of confidence and the language/culture barrier made it hard to overcome, but whatever the case, Shingo-time became batting practice time. If he had his control however he would have been fine.

As I said, Wassermann has to have impeccable control, or he will become the next Shingo. Logan and Wassermann just haven't proved to me they can be part of a championship bullpen. In the case of Wassermann, we just haven't seen enough of him to judge. He certainly isn't a "lock" for next year's bullpen by any stretch of the imagination. All he's done is prove he's better than David Aardsma.

UserNameBlank
08-15-2007, 08:45 PM
As I said, Wassermann has to have impeccable control, or he will become the next Shingo. Logan and Wassermann just haven't proved to me they can be part of a championship bullpen. In the case of Wassermann, we just haven't seen enough of him to judge. He certainly isn't a "lock" for next year's bullpen by any stretch of the imagination. All he's done is prove he's better than David Aardsma.
I'll agree that Ehren hasn't proven a whole lot in his limited time at the major league level, but IMO there is no reason to think that he can't be a very good righty specialist. I'd call him a lock because no one else we have has proven they can do better.

Over Ehren's minor league career he has averaged 3.4 BB/9 IP. For a reliever, espcially one that was used against lefties and righties, I'd say that's pretty good control. Also note the 5 total home runs he's given up in his professional career and the fact that none of them have come in Charlotte or in the Majors. Additionally, his BAA vs. RH say that righties don't hit him very well or very hard.

From his minor league and brief major league success alone I'd say he is head and shoulders above everyone else who should be competing for that spot. Now, whether or not Ozzie decides he wants to use MacDougal for the righty specialist role is one thing, but to me that would be pointless considering the stuff MacDougal has. Mike should be working full innings.

Edit: one more point about control: it doesn't matter what you throw up there or how hard it is because Major League hitters are the ones at the plate. If you have an 85mph fastball or a 100mph fastball, if you can't get anything else over and become a one-pitch pitcher, the hitters are going to sit on it. You throw anything right down the middle with a Major League hitter sitting on it and there's a good chance it is going a long way.

AJ Hellraiser
08-15-2007, 08:52 PM
1. Will people stop talking about Josh Fields in LF... He played there for like 4 games as an experiment.... that is not a seamless transition and it aint' gonna happen

2. Garland will be dealt, mark my word.... they can't afford to lose him for nothing and they don't want yet another contract hanging over their heads with a key guy like this year... he's going to want more than Buehrle got and the Sox simply aren't going to invest that much into the starting rotation, especially with so many young pitchers on the way.... Garland should get 2 or 3 ML ready players

3. Wassermann has earned a spot in next year's bullpen because he provides a different look and is a change from the flame throwers we have... Also, I guess I'm the only one around here who has been happy with Bukvich of late... to me, it was simple with him... throw inside and don't care about hitting people and since then he's grown a pair... I'm not saying to hand him a spot in the 2008 bullpen but I think he deserves an extended look in ST... if he's the first guy out of the pen next year I won't be too upset

sox1970
08-15-2007, 08:54 PM
You can't let Fields play 1/2 year in AAA. It will ruin him.

Agreed. Fields' minor league days are over.

kobo
08-15-2007, 08:58 PM
Here's my problem with Owens, he doesn't get a whole lot of hits...add on top of that he's got a weak little swing and is gonna get a whole lot of bloops. I don't mind him coming off the bench, but he is NOT an everyday player. At Pods can hit the ball hard into the gap somewhere, Owens, not so much. He has a lot of speed but that doesn't do you a whole lot of good if you don't get on base...And trading Garland would be surrendering the season. He is a key part of our rotation...as for Fields, I think he has hit his way onto this team, but the problem is, well, he's lousy in the field. If we can get Crede back 100% healthy I would put him over at third and Josh in LF. I like the idea of Greene starting at short. So it sounds like our team defensively would line up like:

C AJ
1B Paulie
2B Richar
SS Greene
3B Crede
LF Fields
CF Rowand
RF Dye (?)

The problem is there isn't a whole of speed in that lineup...
None of us have any idea of how good or bad Owens is going to be if given a chance to play a full season. Right now, Owens has the potential to be a solid lead off man for the Sox next season. Pods does as well, but he's also injury prone. So if Pods does get hurt again next year, and most likely he will based on the last 2 seasons, Owens would be playing everyday. If Owens gets the chance to finish this season and then plays winter ball and works on his swing I'd gladly take him over Pods.

Why does trading Garland mean the season is over? If a starter is going to get dealt this off season it will most likely be Jon. And he seems to have regressed this season after 2 pretty solid seasons, which alarms me. Garland is going to bring back the most in return, and he's got one year left on his deal. If KW can get something of value for trading Jon I'm all for it.

Fields in LF. I don't get this. The guy is the 3B of the future. He needs to keep working at 3B to improve his defense. Moving him to LF, a position he has not played save for a couple appearances, is not going to help his development at 3rd. Like Owens, Fields is going to have to play winter ball to work on his fielding at 3rd. I really think the Crede days are over. If you're Sox management what would you do? Bring back someone who has a history of back problems that just underwent season ending back surgery and pay him between $4 and $7 million, or stick with the youngster who has shown potential and had a decent rookie season who makes $500K?

Tragg
08-15-2007, 09:13 PM
Re the writer's roster - we may need to trade Garland. But for a real hitter please - like a CF. There's a reason the Padres have been trying to move Greene...that reason is he hits about like Uribe. So we should trade Garland and Anderson for a Uribe clone and a pitching prospect? Why?

Cintron on the bench again - that's not even trying to improve; Erstad- come on.

UserNameBlank
08-15-2007, 09:18 PM
1. Will people stop talking about Josh Fields in LF... He played there for like 4 games as an experiment.... that is not a seamless transition and it aint' gonna happen

2. Garland will be dealt, mark my word.... they can't afford to lose him for nothing and they don't want yet another contract hanging over their heads with a key guy like this year... he's going to want more than Buehrle got and the Sox simply aren't going to invest that much into the starting rotation, especially with so many young pitchers on the way.... Garland should get 2 or 3 ML ready players

3. Wassermann has earned a spot in next year's bullpen because he provides a different look and is a change from the flame throwers we have... Also, I guess I'm the only one around here who has been happy with Bukvich of late... to me, it was simple with him... throw inside and don't care about hitting people and since then he's grown a pair... I'm not saying to hand him a spot in the 2008 bullpen but I think he deserves an extended look in ST... if he's the first guy out of the pen next year I won't be too upset

1. Agreed on Fields as far as it not being a seamless transition, but I do think the Sox hold on to Crede. If they were rebuilding I'd say they'd probably dump him, but the fact is they don't have the OF depth to let Crede go and start Fields at 3B. IMO it's unfortunate though because Fields looks comfortable now and I'd hate to move him around and **** with his development in the Majors simply because of Crede, who probably isn't going to be enough to "put us over the top" in any case.

2. I hope you're right about Garland. I'd like to get a couple of position players for him.

3. Bukvich scares me. All that offspeed stuff up in the zone can't bring good results forever. I agree that ever since he started throwing hard inside he's been better and has seemed to become more confident, but again, that high offspeed **** scares the hell out of me.

roadrunner
08-15-2007, 10:02 PM
Re the writer's roster - we may need to trade Garland. But for a real hitter please - like a CF. There's a reason the Padres have been trying to move Greene...that reason is he hits about like Uribe. So we should trade Garland and Anderson for a Uribe clone and a pitching prospect? Why?

I agree completely with the Uribe comparison. A top of the rotation pitcher like Garland has way more value than the booty described in the article. I don't know why they would print such a crappy article based on an obviously faulty premise.

(If the Padres could somehow manage to swindle KW they would have an absolutely sick 1-2-3 in the rotation)

WhiteSox5187
08-15-2007, 10:17 PM
None of us have any idea of how good or bad Owens is going to be if given a chance to play a full season. Right now, Owens has the potential to be a solid lead off man for the Sox next season. Pods does as well, but he's also injury prone. So if Pods does get hurt again next year, and most likely he will based on the last 2 seasons, Owens would be playing everyday. If Owens gets the chance to finish this season and then plays winter ball and works on his swing I'd gladly take him over Pods.

Why does trading Garland mean the season is over? If a starter is going to get dealt this off season it will most likely be Jon. And he seems to have regressed this season after 2 pretty solid seasons, which alarms me. Garland is going to bring back the most in return, and he's got one year left on his deal. If KW can get something of value for trading Jon I'm all for it.

Fields in LF. I don't get this. The guy is the 3B of the future. He needs to keep working at 3B to improve his defense. Moving him to LF, a position he has not played save for a couple appearances, is not going to help his development at 3rd. Like Owens, Fields is going to have to play winter ball to work on his fielding at 3rd. I really think the Crede days are over. If you're Sox management what would you do? Bring back someone who has a history of back problems that just underwent season ending back surgery and pay him between $4 and $7 million, or stick with the youngster who has shown potential and had a decent rookie season who makes $500K?
The reason I think that Fields should be in LF is because there is going to be no way possible to move Crede. No one is going to want to risk a 3B with a bad back, so you're kinda between a rock and a hard spot there with him. Do you ahve him ride the bench and try and move him from there? Or do you see what he can do and how he looks (if he comes back 100% the potential upside is enormous) then maybe poke around for a possible contract extension (it could be for cheap too). Personally, I'd see how he looks starting the season and how he feeling, if he feels good and looks good, I'd start asking about an incentive laden contract extension.

As for Garland, the problem with moving him is, who takes his place??? Do we really want a rotation that goes Buerhle, Javy, Danks, Floyd, Jose/Masset/Gio/Russell? I think that Danks will be a very good pitcher in three years, but for now he is no better than a respectable fourth starter, and that's being generous. Floyd is a huge question mark as is the quartet of Jose, Masset, Gio and Russell. I understand he will be looking for a deal like Buerhle's and I wouldn't object to giving him one like that, but if he asks for MORE, my response would be "Have you won 100+ games? Do you have a sub-four career ERA?" Now, he certainly deserves a similar deal to Buerhle. Say maybe, four years at 40-50 million.

As for Owens, yea, maybe it's a little too soon to judge. But ya know, he hasn't really impressed me with anything other than his speed. Obviously though, you'd like a better leadoff guy than him and I think it's silly to go to Pods again as "Plan A."

soxinem1
08-15-2007, 10:23 PM
Nick has one thing Gavin doesn't, mound presence. Whenever Gavin is up there he looks so nervous, every time I saw Masset he looked as if he should have been there. Also, Nick doesn't throw nearly as many fastballs as Gavin, and he has more pitches then Gavin too.

Most of which tend to be called balls or wind up in the seats in fair territory.:mad:

Neither pitcher has shown the ability to throw quality strikes, and Masset's numbers in AAA are deceiving. Looks to me like he has trouble making it into the fifth inning.

And at this stage, any writer who even suggests that Fields be a AAA player next year, should start looking for a new career.

UserNameBlank
08-15-2007, 10:23 PM
I agree completely with the Uribe comparison. A top of the rotation pitcher like Garland has way more value than the booty described in the article. I don't know why they would print such a crappy article based on an obviously faulty premise.

(If the Padres could somehow manage to swindle KW they would have an absolutely sick 1-2-3 in the rotation)
Garland isn't a top of the rotation starter. He would be a great fit for the Pads though.

Greene and Uribe are comparable as far as the fact that they are very good defensive RH SS with power and very little plate discipline, but Greene is the more powerful of the two. Khalil has 19 HR's right now and just by looking at his hit chart in comparison to the Cell's dimensions, it looks like if PetCo had the Cell's dimensions he'd have about 25-26 homers by now. Khalil on the Sox could become a 30 HR SS. I'd definitely take him over Uribe but not as the centerpiece in a deal for Garland. We need an OF. I still think Seattle is the best fit for Jon.

JB98
08-15-2007, 10:44 PM
Most of which tend to be called balls or wind up in the seats in fair territory.:mad:

Neither pitcher has shown the ability to throw quality strikes, and Masset's numbers in AAA are deceiving. Looks to me like he has trouble making it into the fifth inning.

And at this stage, any writer who even suggests that Fields be a AAA player next year, should start looking for a new career.

I'm not sure why Masset would be ahead of Gonzalez, if the Sox were going to put another young pitcher in the rotation next year. He just doesn't throw enough strikes, much like Sisco.

I agree, it's a moronic to suggest Fields should go back to AAA next year. Why the writer gave a starting nod to Sweeney, but not Fields, is beyond me. I think it's pretty clear which of those two players has made a name for himself this season.

Tragg
08-15-2007, 11:42 PM
Greene and Uribe are comparable as far as the fact that they are very good defensive RH SS with power and very little plate discipline, but Greene is the more powerful of the two. Khalil has 19 HR's right now and just by looking at his hit chart in comparison to the Cell's dimensions, it looks like if PetCo had the Cell's dimensions he'd have about 25-26 homers by now. Khalil on the Sox could become a 30 HR SS. I'd definitely take him over Uribe but not as the centerpiece in a deal for Garland. We need an OF. I still think Seattle is the best fit for Jon.
YOu can nuance the difference between Uribe and Khalil (Khalil also has the benefit of NL pitching) but as you said, he's no centerpiece. We need a real ballplayer or a couple of real prospects for Garland. Our O is just awful right now.

Sargeant79
08-15-2007, 11:52 PM
I'm not sure why Masset would be ahead of Gonzalez, if the Sox were going to put another young pitcher in the rotation next year. He just doesn't throw enough strikes, much like Sisco.



It would probably be best for Gio's development if he spent the entire year at AAA next year. Masset is a little bit older and has some major league experience now, so next year would be a good time to see if he can cut it as a starter. Although I would be a bit concerned with that scenario if it's Contreras still here next year and not Garland.

Buehrle - Garland - Vazquez - Danks - Masset ; I can live with that
Buehrle - Vazquez - Contreras - Danks - Masset ; likely third place at best

Nellie_Fox
08-16-2007, 01:34 AM
All right I'll throw this out there:

SS- Furcal * Dodgers swap contracts , get Contreras and a prospect
LF- Fields
DH- Thome
1b- Paulie
C- AJ
RF- Dye *resigned for 3 years
3b- Crede
CF- Rowland * FA
2b- Richar

Who is this "Rowland" person you speak of??? :tongue:Pants? :dunno:

hose
08-16-2007, 08:03 AM
Pants? :dunno:

oh you mean George's kid .:cool:

kevin57
08-16-2007, 12:53 PM
Let me suggest what few dare to contemplate...trading Thome.

I have been truly underwhelmed by his performance this season, and I think he would fetch some very good possibilities on the market.

I also think Crede is gone in favor of Fields.

I think they'll keep Contreras, if for no other reason than nobody wants him at that price and will be willing to give the Sox anything for him...but gambling on his resurgence is going to be THE game of '08.

SoxxoS
08-16-2007, 12:55 PM
Let me suggest what few dare to contemplate...trading Thome.

I have been truly underwhelmed by his performance this season, and I think he would fetch some very good possibilities on the market.


He wouldnt fetch that much in the open market b/c teams know exactly what we know - He is injury prone and strictly a DH. That is limited to only a few teams...where I think he could be a good player - But he isn't going to fetch a top prospect or anything.

russ99
08-16-2007, 01:35 PM
He wouldnt fetch that much in the open market b/c teams know exactly what we know - He is injury prone and strictly a DH. That is limited to only a few teams...where I think he could be a good player - But he isn't going to fetch a top prospect or anything.

Agreed. It would have to be a salary dump and Thome's worth a lot more to the Sox than what they could get for him. Also the Phils are still paying part of next year's salary.

I just wish big Jim could hit to the left side when they put the shift on...

There's a possibility Thome might retire after next season as well.

balke
08-16-2007, 02:07 PM
I was mildly surprised the Angels didn't ask about Thome. He was more obtainable than Konerko, and would've came for much less prospect wise. I don't think Thome would go though if he had a choice.

thedudeabides
08-16-2007, 03:22 PM
An article from the Daily Herald suggesting the Sox move Fields to left now.

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/story.asp?id=340456

Of course, there is no suggestion on who is going to start at third the remainder of the season. Cintron? No thanks.

I would think if they ultimately decide to move Fields to left, he'll work on the transition in winter ball and spring training. I'd like to see him work on his defense at third the rest of the year in case he stays there.

Jaffar
08-16-2007, 03:43 PM
An article from the Daily Herald suggesting the Sox move Fields to left now.

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/story.asp?id=340456

Of course, there is no suggestion on who is going to start at third the remainder of the season. Cintron? No thanks.

I would think if they ultimately decide to move Fields to left, he'll work on the transition in winter ball and spring training. I'd like to see him work on his defense at third the rest of the year in case he stays there.

I would rather Josh Fields play 3b at AAA next year then LF anywhere. He is our future 3B and making him learn LF would just slow down the learning process. Crede is gone after 08 no matter what.

balke
08-16-2007, 03:49 PM
I would rather Josh Fields play 3b at AAA next year then LF anywhere. He is our future 3B and making him learn LF would just slow down the learning process. Crede is gone after 08 no matter what.

Defensively, I just don't see it. He makes a lot of mistakes, and his power isn't going to make up for that. I'd like to see him moved, but I'd like the Sox to have a plan for leadoff next season as well.

Hawk and some others have hinted he'll be in LF next season. Hawk also said Josh is going to learn 3B like Crede did, but I just don't see it. The reactions aren't there (Seen him move right initially on balls hit to his left), and there's been a lot of dumb mistakes and misthrows that I've seen.

SoxxoS
08-16-2007, 03:49 PM
Crede is gone after 08 no matter what.

Based on what evidence?

Lip Man 1
08-16-2007, 05:33 PM
Soxxos:

Two words. Scott Boras.

Crede by the way is the only player on the roster with him as his agent.

Lip

UserNameBlank
08-16-2007, 05:42 PM
Soxxos:

Two words. Scott Boras.

Crede by the way is the only player on the roster with him as his agent.

Lip
I could see Borass refusing to negotiate an extension considering Crede's back, but that still wouldn't stop the Sox from trading him for prospects midseason if he'd having a good year or holding on to him and collecting draft picks. Personally I'd rather just go with Fields at 3B and cut all our losses while we still can, but KW doesn't want to rebuild, so whatever.

WhiteSox5187
08-16-2007, 06:25 PM
Soxxos:

Two words. Scott Boras.

Crede by the way is the only player on the roster with him as his agent.

Lip
Well, Crede has said that he would change agents if he thought it would improve his chances to stay with the Sox and his current agent was "hurting his chances of getting an offer."

MisterB
08-16-2007, 06:40 PM
Soxxos:

Two words. Scott Boras.

Crede by the way is the only player on the roster with him as his agent.

Lip

Boras represents John Danks as well.

Lip Man 1
08-16-2007, 08:38 PM
Mister:

I didn't know that...thanks. I guess that means at best Danks will be around for another five years.

:D:

White Sox5187:

Well Crede's no dummy, he's seen what's happened to other Boras clients with the Sox. If he was going to change agents he would have done so by now.

Unless the agent's philosophy or Sox management's philosophy changes, Crede's days are numbered and that's with or without a healthy back.

Lip

Madvora
08-16-2007, 08:56 PM
Where do they get this idea that Rowand is a base stealer?

Lip Man 1
08-16-2007, 09:32 PM
It's ironic that just as we are having this discussion about Joe's future comes this comment from Oakland by Kenny Williams regarding the 'recovery' of Crede.

It's from White Sox.com and sort of smacks of the Ordonez situation doesn't it?

When asked Thursday about the progress being made by Crede with his surgically repaired back, Williams presented a somewhat cryptic response. "I hear that he is doing better," Williams said. "It's a little difficult to keep tabs on that situation for reasons I would rather not go into."
-----
It's well know that JR and Boras don't get along and it appears clear to me that Kenny and he does not either.

Crede is gone probably as soon as he shows that he can get back out on the field in the spring.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
08-16-2007, 09:54 PM
It's ironic that just as we are having this discussion about Joe's future comes this comment from Oakland by Kenny Williams regarding the 'recovery' of Crede.

It's from White Sox.com and sort of smacks of the Ordonez situation doesn't it?

When asked Thursday about the progress being made by Crede with his surgically repaired back, Williams presented a somewhat cryptic response. "I hear that he is doing better," Williams said. "It's a little difficult to keep tabs on that situation for reasons I would rather not go into."
-----
It's well know that JR and Boras don't get along and it appears clear to me that Kenny and he does not either.

Crede is gone probably as soon as he shows that he can get back out on the field in the spring.

Lip
That's too bad...if Boras keeps hiding the health conditions of his clients, he's going to find fewer and fewer teams willing to pick them up. As I recall, the Tigers were the only team that made Maggs an offer.

soxinem1
08-17-2007, 12:34 AM
That's too bad...if Boras keeps hiding the health conditions of his clients, he's going to find fewer and fewer teams willing to pick them up. As I recall, the Tigers were the only team that made Maggs an offer.

So what? JD Drew got paid, he got a ton for Kenny Rogers from DET, and Gagne and Magglio got paid. Maggs only concession from DET was concerning his kneee during the first year of his contact.

If anything, the other teams don't seem to care, esp. considering BOS extremely dumb signing of JD Drew.

WhiteSox5187
08-17-2007, 02:31 AM
So what? JD Drew got paid, he got a ton for Kenny Rogers from DET, and Gagne and Magglio got paid. Maggs only concession from DET was concerning his kneee during the first year of his contact.

If anything, the other teams don't seem to care, esp. considering BOS extremely dumb signing of JD Drew.
I just think that after enough JD Drew signings teams will say "Enough is enough! We're not going to even consider signing your guy until we get a look at him." However, I have come to learn to never underestimate the stupidity of GMs.

Frater Perdurabo
08-17-2007, 07:39 AM
After some contemplation, I would be be OK with the Sox receiving less than equal value back in a Garland trade provided that such a deal gave the Sox significant salaray relief that they could reinvest in upgrading several positions (that is, the Sox don't receive any overpaid players in return), and the deal sends a top-notch MLB-ready (or nearly ready) starting pitching prospect to the Sox.

I don't know if the Padres have much starting pitching depth in their minor league system, though.

INSox56
08-17-2007, 09:26 AM
I just think that after enough JD Drew signings teams will say "Enough is enough! We're not going to even consider signing your guy until we get a look at him." However, I have come to learn to never underestimate the stupidity of GMs.You'd think that would be true, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, year after year, some team (points north) always ****s things up and makes dumbass moves that perpetuate the cycle.

WhiteSox5187
08-17-2007, 10:59 AM
You'd think that would be true, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, year after year, some team (points north) always ****s things up and makes dumbass moves that perpetuate the cycle.
Yea, and it's not just up North, it's teams like the Red Sox and Yankees...the MLBPA has also hurt this cause. My dad has been saying ever since free agency that at some point the market will correct this, that teams won't be able to afford to keep this up anymore (next year bleacher tickets are going to cost fifty bucks at Wrigley, think anyone will pay fifty bucks to see a 90 loss team in five years? Uh, no) and teams will start, well, folding. But as we saw with Montreal, the MLBPA won't allow a team to just go out of buisness.

soxtalker
08-17-2007, 11:14 AM
It's ironic that just as we are having this discussion about Joe's future comes this comment from Oakland by Kenny Williams regarding the 'recovery' of Crede.

It's from White Sox.com and sort of smacks of the Ordonez situation doesn't it?

When asked Thursday about the progress being made by Crede with his surgically repaired back, Williams presented a somewhat cryptic response. "I hear that he is doing better," Williams said. "It's a little difficult to keep tabs on that situation for reasons I would rather not go into."
-----
It's well know that JR and Boras don't get along and it appears clear to me that Kenny and he does not either.

Crede is gone probably as soon as he shows that he can get back out on the field in the spring.

Lip

It does sound similar to the Ordonez situation, but maybe there is an added twist. What motivation does Boras have to keep KW well informed? If there is enough uncertainty, the Sox may not be willing to exercise the $5MM option on Crede for next year. That could be a better alternative for Boras, if he's fairly certain he can negotiate a better deal with another team.

WhiteSox5187
08-17-2007, 11:36 AM
Where do they get this idea that Rowand is a base stealer?
Well, he's not Paul Konerko out there, but he's not a leadoff guy who is a big danger on the basepaths either...but he doesn't clog 'em up or anything.

russ99
08-17-2007, 01:52 PM
It does sound similar to the Ordonez situation, but maybe there is an added twist. What motivation does Boras have to keep KW well informed? If there is enough uncertainty, the Sox may not be willing to exercise the $5MM option on Crede for next year. That could be a better alternative for Boras, if he's fairly certain he can negotiate a better deal with another team.

Seriously between Boras' rehab misinformation antics and the massive questions on exactly what Crede's surgery even corrected could leave the Sox no choice to non-tender him. I'm not sure if I would risk paying Crede $5-8M for one more year (arb eligible?) with this cloud of disinformation.

If Joe wants to stay here, he's going to have to do something about this.

soxtalker
08-17-2007, 02:09 PM
Seriously between Boras' rehab misinformation antics and the massive questions on exactly what Crede's surgery even corrected could leave the Sox no choice to non-tender him. I'm not sure if I would risk paying Crede $5-8M for one more year (arb eligible?) with this cloud of disinformation.

If Joe wants to stay here, he's going to have to do something about this.

And Crede's probably weighing the possibility that his career could be cut short by injury.

High-stakes decisions on all sides.

FarWestChicago
08-17-2007, 05:09 PM
And Crede's probably weighing the possibility that his career could be cut short by injury.

High-stakes decisions on all sides.This is a huge point. Joe needs to go where he can get the most money. His back is a ticking time bomb. Joe was huge in our 2005 march to victory. I'll always appreciate that and would like to see him do the best for himself.

Lip Man 1
08-17-2007, 05:36 PM
There's a lot of truth in what West says. I just wish (hope) that things don't deteriorate the way they did with Magglio and Frank. Let's keep the going's on inside the offices.

Lip

RowanDye
08-18-2007, 04:34 AM
It's ironic that just as we are having this discussion about Joe's future comes this comment from Oakland by Kenny Williams regarding the 'recovery' of Crede.

It's from White Sox.com and sort of smacks of the Ordonez situation doesn't it?

When asked Thursday about the progress being made by Crede with his surgically repaired back, Williams presented a somewhat cryptic response. "I hear that he is doing better," Williams said. "It's a little difficult to keep tabs on that situation for reasons I would rather not go into."
-----
It's well know that JR and Boras don't get along and it appears clear to me that Kenny and he does not either.

Crede is gone probably as soon as he shows that he can get back out on the field in the spring.

Lip

Did Kenny drop his cell phone in the toilet and lose Crede's phone number or something?

Lip Man 1
08-18-2007, 01:52 PM
Rowan:

That's a good point. I just assume it's because Kenny and Scott don't get along and he tries to limit contact with his injured players.

Lip

Flight #24
08-23-2007, 02:43 PM
2 thoughts on the topic of offseason moves and the construction of the 2008 Sox:

IMO the Sox are going to make a big move in the offseason. By all accounts MLB has significantly greater revenues with the new media contracts. And Kenny's moves this past offseason seemed geared towards maintaining financial flexibility for the '08 offseason. At least one stathead thinks that may also be the case.


Nate Silver: To me, it's very much an unresolved question about whether the front office *didn't* see it coming. If you look at what they did this winter, they were pretty much Contenders in Name Only (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RINO).

The thing about the White Sox (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?team=CHA) though is that the fan support has been tremendous -- they had something like 33,000 people last night for a weekday game against the Royals (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?team=KCA). So, maybe you take this year to do some re-tinkering when the league is looking very tough, the market very expensive, and you still have a lot of credibility built up from 2005. I don't think we'll be able to say whether the White Sox did the right thing last winter until we see what they do *this* winter.


2) ESPN has an interesting piece on the wafer-thin FA pitching market. It's basically old, injured guys like Schilling who'll do 1-year deals and gigantic ?s like Carlos Silva and Kyle Lohse who'll get multiyear big money deals. If Lohse gets a multi-year deal at $12+, is Contreras really going to look that bad at 2/$20? And is Garland on a 1-year / $12M deal going to be gold?

IMO Kenny's going after ARod. If he has to deal Garland to do it, he will (to free up $$$$ because no one will take Jose), but if Jose can be deemed even halfway valuable, they'll be able to dump him and free up that $$$.

soxinem1
08-23-2007, 03:06 PM
2 thoughts on the topic of offseason moves and the construction of the 2008 Sox:

IMO the Sox are going to make a big move in the offseason. By all accounts MLB has significantly greater revenues with the new media contracts. And Kenny's moves this past offseason seemed geared towards maintaining financial flexibility for the '08 offseason. At least one stathead thinks that may also be the case.



2) ESPN has an interesting piece on the wafer-thin FA pitching market. It's basically old, injured guys like Schilling who'll do 1-year deals and gigantic ?s like Carlos Silva and Kyle Lohse who'll get multiyear big money deals. If Lohse gets a multi-year deal at $12+, is Contreras really going to look that bad at 2/$20? And is Garland on a 1-year / $12M deal going to be gold?

IMO Kenny's going after ARod. If he has to deal Garland to do it, he will (to free up $$$$ because no one will take Jose), but if Jose can be deemed even halfway valuable, they'll be able to dump him and free up that $$$.

If either of them gets that kind of money, this sport is in more trouble than ever.

mjmcend
08-23-2007, 03:25 PM
If either of them gets that kind of money, this sport is in more trouble than ever.

Why? It means that revenue is way up and teams can afford such large contracts. The only change is that since the league minimum won't increase as quickly as FA contracts, it will make young players (especially pitchers) more valuable.

spiffie
08-23-2007, 03:51 PM
With nearly 90 million already committed to next season, a shaky bullpen, and a starting rotation with 2 question marks in it I see absolutely no way the Sox make any major moves. The only FA I could see them going after would be Rowand, not because he's great or to satisfy the cult of Aaron here, but because I could see him taking a discount to come back here. And that's been the strategy as of late (and by no means has it been a bad one, it got us Buehrle for the long-term). But I can't see any other major FA's taking anything below max value to come play here. So if I had to guess I'd say it ends up with Konerko, Richar, Uribe, Crede, Owens, Rowand, Dye, AJ starting and a rotation of Buehrle, Garland, Javy, Jose, and Danks. Pods, Erstad, and Cintron don't return.

I don't care how much money MLB is bringing in, I just don't see them raising payroll after a year in which attendance will be lower. I don't see them cutting it either. I believe JR is committed to putting the money into the team, but anyone imagining the Sox will be putting the 6/140 or so out there needed for A-Rod is living in deeppink.

Flight #24
08-23-2007, 04:53 PM
I don't care how much money MLB is bringing in, I just don't see them raising payroll after a year in which attendance will be lower. I don't see them cutting it either. I believe JR is committed to putting the money into the team, but anyone imagining the Sox will be putting the 6/140 or so out there needed for A-Rod is living in deeppink.

I guess where we apparently differ is that you believe Sox ownership will pocket the incremental profits from the new contracts for XM, etc. I think they'll put it back into the team. (And they could put it back into the team and not go after ARod, but make other payroll-increasing moves.)

spiffie
08-23-2007, 05:21 PM
I guess where we apparently differ is that you believe Sox ownership will pocket the incremental profits from the new contracts for XM, etc. I think they'll put it back into the team. (And they could put it back into the team and not go after ARod, but make other payroll-increasing moves.)
I don't think they will be pocketing it, but I suspect that the increases from the new contracts will likely be offset by the losses caused by somewhat decreased attendance. Add to that the already existing payroll obligations (which I don't think will be able to be significantly lowered due to the people involved and the way the team is currently set up) and I can't see the payroll increasing to a point where any major changes could be made. Yes, payroll might increase somewhat, but our obligations will likely eat that up in a way that I can't picture anything more significant than a Rowand signing happening. Even that would likely push us into the 110-115 range when its all said and done.

The Immigrant
08-23-2007, 05:25 PM
I don't think they will be pocketing it, but I suspect that the increases from the new contracts will likely be offset by the losses caused by somewhat decreased attendance.

Signing A-Rod would probably offset the inevitable drop in attendance as a result of this year's disappointing showing. The team is in a position where it almost has to make a big splash in the offseason in order to maintain the current attendance levels and the casual fan's attention. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see it happen.

Jerksticks
08-23-2007, 05:29 PM
I wouldn't rule out a big ARod splash here on the SouthSide. I mean we are one of what, 4-5 teams that could swing that amount of cash at him?

As much as everyone likes to say KW JR and OG don't care about the cubs, I think they do. Soriano was the biggest signing in Chicago since I don't know. This is the perfect opportunity to trump the heck outa that, and put the greatest player of all time on our team.

Hell yea.

JSticks

soxinem1
08-23-2007, 07:26 PM
Why? It means that revenue is way up and teams can afford such large contracts. The only change is that since the league minimum won't increase as quickly as FA contracts, it will make young players (especially pitchers) more valuable.

$12 million a year for Lohse or Silva? *****!!!!!!! Tell the younger players if you go 8-13 with a 5.00 ERA and you are all set? No thanks.

Sure, revenue may be up, and a team may have $$$, but if that is what the salary structure becomes, then I guess $20 million a year gets you Brad Penny, $30 million a year gets you Oswalt, and $45 million a yrear gets you Santana.

Way out of control.

mjmcend
08-23-2007, 07:49 PM
$12 million a year for Lohse or Silva? *****!!!!!!! Tell the younger players if you go 8-13 with a 5.00 ERA and you are all set? No thanks.

Sure, revenue may be up, and a team may have $$$, but if that is what the salary structure becomes, then I guess $20 million a year gets you Brad Penny, $30 million a year gets you Oswalt, and $45 million a yrear gets you Santana.

Way out of control.

Not out of control if teams can afford it and are willing to pay for it.

Domeshot17
08-24-2007, 12:52 AM
Arod is represented by Boras

Kenny and Boras do not get a long

Kenny refuses to deal with Scott Boras

Ozzie called out Arod a few years ago, making very public headlines.

Boras is in good graces with the Red Sox

The Red Sox have a bad SS, an old 3b, and a bottomless pocket

Ozzie loves him some Uribe/Cintron combo

Pick a card any card, they all say Arod is not coming here.

spiffie
08-24-2007, 10:26 AM
Arod is represented by Boras

Kenny and Boras do not get a long

Kenny refuses to deal with Scott Boras

Ozzie called out Arod a few years ago, making very public headlines.

Boras is in good graces with the Red Sox

The Red Sox have a bad SS, an old 3b, and a bottomless pocket

Ozzie loves him some Uribe/Cintron combo

Pick a card any card, they all say Arod is not coming here.
The first two of these are likely the dealbreakers, even assuming the Sox could afford such a contract.

The Ozzie thing would likely not matter. And I would be surprised to see Rodriguez go to Boston. He seems to not really like the constant spotlight, and in Boston it sounds like life there is pretty much Red Sox 24/7. I expect him to go somewhere that the baseball team is not #1 so either the California/LA teams or the Cubs (where as important as they are, they're still not the Bears in terms of importance in this city).

And honestly, if Kenny Williams called up Ozzie Guillen and said, "I'm thinking of offering A-Rod a deal, would you be happy about it?" that Ozzie would say, "Nah, I got Juan Uribe and Alex Cintron, I'm set." Just because a few people here talked themselves into the idea that regardless of the money involved they'd rather have Crede or Uribe than A-Rod doesn't mean Ozzie is that insane.

Flight #24
08-24-2007, 10:42 AM
I don't think they will be pocketing it, but I suspect that the increases from the new contracts will likely be offset by the losses caused by somewhat decreased attendance. Add to that the already existing payroll obligations (which I don't think will be able to be significantly lowered due to the people involved and the way the team is currently set up) and I can't see the payroll increasing to a point where any major changes could be made. Yes, payroll might increase somewhat, but our obligations will likely eat that up in a way that I can't picture anything more significant than a Rowand signing happening. Even that would likely push us into the 110-115 range when its all said and done.
:?:

Payroll after factoring in the increases you mention is ~$90M. If per your own statement they'd push it to 110-115M, that's $25M right there, which gets you into ARod's neighborhood. And that's assuming that you don't lose Garland/Contreras and their $10-12M in salary. If the pitching market continues to inflate and Jose can pitch like he did his last time out, he'd be equivalent to an Adam Eaton, who IIRC got 3/$24 from the Phils despite sucking and coming off of injury. If the options are say 3/$36 for Kyle Lohse or 2/$20 for Jose, I'd bet the Sox can dump the salary pretty easily. If they can, they can get ARod and other guys, if not it may be a choice between the 2. He's also the one guy that I could see them stretching payroll for because he'll draw (unlike Rowand).

Now whether or not they'd deal with Boras on ARod is another matter. I'd like to think that ARod's proving that he's worth the contract if you can put the rest of the team around him (which the Sox would be able to at a $115M payroll). If it comes down to a combo of ARod and Owens in CF or Uribe/Vizquel and Rowand/Hunter, I'd take the former in a heartbeat.

And while Ozzie has called out ARod during the whole WBC thing, he's also repeatedly praised him, and was probably the guy who had his back the most during the recent Blue Jay yelling episode. Certainly more than Torre or any of his teammates.

spiffie
08-24-2007, 12:09 PM
:?:

Payroll after factoring in the increases you mention is ~$90M. If per your own statement they'd push it to 110-115M, that's $25M right there, which gets you into ARod's neighborhood. And that's assuming that you don't lose Garland/Contreras and their $10-12M in salary. If the pitching market continues to inflate and Jose can pitch like he did his last time out, he'd be equivalent to an Adam Eaton, who IIRC got 3/$24 from the Phils despite sucking and coming off of injury. If the options are say 3/$36 for Kyle Lohse or 2/$20 for Jose, I'd bet the Sox can dump the salary pretty easily. If they can, they can get ARod and other guys, if not it may be a choice between the 2. He's also the one guy that I could see them stretching payroll for because he'll draw (unlike Rowand).

Now whether or not they'd deal with Boras on ARod is another matter. I'd like to think that ARod's proving that he's worth the contract if you can put the rest of the team around him (which the Sox would be able to at a $115M payroll). If it comes down to a combo of ARod and Owens in CF or Uribe/Vizquel and Rowand/Hunter, I'd take the former in a heartbeat.

And while Ozzie has called out ARod during the whole WBC thing, he's also repeatedly praised him, and was probably the guy who had his back the most during the recent Blue Jay yelling episode. Certainly more than Torre or any of his teammates.
I don't see Jose getting dumped. I would be stunned if anyone took him on at 1/2 his salary. The difference between the guys you mentioned and Jose is neither of those mediocre pitchers is possibly in their early to mid 40's. Also, those guys may suck, but you don't have to give up anything other than cash for them. Better to take a mediocre 30 year old for just money than a mediocre 36-42 year old who costs at least a low-level prospect. The Sox will have to eat a significant chunk of salary to move that contract. And if you trade Garland, then you have a rotation of Buehrle, Vazquez, Contreras, Danks, and Broadway/Gonzalez/Floyd. I don't think that team wins unless A-Rod can hit 600/900/2400 or so. And be cloned to make 3 of him.

Problem is that the team is already commited to nearly 90 million for next year. And that is without factoring in Crede, Uribe, Pods, Erstad, or Cintron. If they were to go sign A-Rod for $20 million a year then you're basically committing to playing kids in LF, CF, 3B, 2B, and a couple bench spots, and the entire bullpen. Yes, they could sign A-Rod. I agree. But to do so, I would guess you see this:
1B - Konerko - 12M
2B - Richar - .4M
SS - Rodriguez - 22M
3B - Fields - .4M
RF - Dye - 9.5M
CF - Owens - .4M
LF - Sweeney - .4M
C - Pierzynski - 5.5M
DH - Thome - 8M (appx.)
SP - Buehrle - 14M
SP - Garland - 12M
SP - Vazquez - 11.5M
SP - Contreras - 10M
SP - Danks - .4M
RP - Jenks - .6M
RP - MacDougal - 1.95M
RP - Thornton - .875M
RP - Wasserman - .4M
RP - Bukvich - .4M
RP - Myers - 1.1M
RP - Floyd - .4M
BN - Hall - 1.75M
BN - Ozuna - 1.25M
BN - Anderson - .4M
BN - Gonzalez - .4M

That's $116 million or so. Does that look like a World Series contender? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

oeo
08-24-2007, 12:15 PM
I don't see Jose getting dumped. I would be stunned if anyone took him on at 1/2 his salary. The difference between the guys you mentioned and Jose is neither of those mediocre pitchers is possibly in their early to mid 40's. Also, those guys may suck, but you don't have to give up anything other than cash for them. Better to take a mediocre 30 year old for just money than a mediocre 36-42 year old who costs at least a low-level prospect. The Sox will have to eat a significant chunk of salary to move that contract. And if you trade Garland, then you have a rotation of Buehrle, Vazquez, Contreras, Danks, and Broadway/Gonzalez/Floyd. I don't think that team wins unless A-Rod can hit 600/900/2400 or so. And be cloned to make 3 of him.

Problem is that the team is already commited to nearly 90 million for next year. And that is without factoring in Crede, Uribe, Pods, Erstad, or Cintron. If they were to go sign A-Rod for $20 million a year then you're basically committing to playing kids in LF, CF, 3B, 2B, and a couple bench spots, and the entire bullpen. Yes, they could sign A-Rod. I agree. But to do so, I would guess you see this:
1B - Konerko - 12M
2B - Richar - .4M
SS - Rodriguez - 22M
3B - Fields - .4M
RF - Dye - 9.5M
CF - Owens - .4M
LF - Sweeney - .4M
C - Pierzynski - 5.5M
DH - Thome - 8M (appx.)
SP - Buehrle - 14M
SP - Garland - 12M
SP - Vazquez - 11.5M
SP - Contreras - 10M
SP - Danks - .4M
RP - Jenks - .6M
RP - MacDougal - 1.95M
RP - Thornton - .875M
RP - Wasserman - .4M
RP - Bukvich - .4M
RP - Myers - 1.1M
RP - Floyd - .4M
BN - Hall - 1.75M
BN - Ozuna - 1.25M
BN - Anderson - .4M
BN - Gonzalez - .4M

That's $116 million or so. Does that look like a World Series contender? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

A-Rod is going to take more than $22 million. Think closer to 30.

I'm against signing A-Rod now. Too many holes to fill. At the beginning of the year when it looked like we were a solid team, I was all for it. $30 million is too much to put into one player when you need to fill 5, 6, 7 other holes.

spiffie
08-24-2007, 12:16 PM
A-Rod is going to take more than $22 million. Think closer to 30.

I'm against signing A-Rod now. Too many holes to fill. At the beginning of the year when it looked like we were a solid team, I was all for it. $30 million is too much to put into one player when you need to fill 5, 6, 7 other holes.
I think his average will be around what it is now. I figured any deal he signs would likely be an escalating one starting in the low 20s and going up as the deal moves on.

oeo
08-24-2007, 12:17 PM
Payroll after factoring in the increases you mention is ~$90M. If per your own statement they'd push it to 110-115M, that's $25M right there, which gets you into ARod's neighborhood. And that's assuming that you don't lose Garland/Contreras and their $10-12M in salary. If the pitching market continues to inflate and Jose can pitch like he did his last time out, he'd be equivalent to an Adam Eaton, who IIRC got 3/$24 from the Phils despite sucking and coming off of injury. If the options are say 3/$36 for Kyle Lohse or 2/$20 for Jose, I'd bet the Sox can dump the salary pretty easily. If they can, they can get ARod and other guys, if not it may be a choice between the 2. He's also the one guy that I could see them stretching payroll for because he'll draw (unlike Rowand).

Maybe you haven't realized how bad Contreras has been. I'm sure some team would rather pay Lohse than Contreras...and it's not going to take them $12/year to do it, either.

We're stuck with Contreras, it's time to deal with it. Hopefully he turns it around because I highly doubt we will be able to get rid of him. Unless he suddenly becomes an ace again for the rest of the year, which seems unlikely. People keep saying that we'll just have to eat most of the contract, but the Sox do not do business that way. They're either dumping the whole thing, or they're keeping him. And since he's lost 16 games and has an ERA over 6, his velocity was back down again in his last start, etc., we're not going to dump it.

Flight #24
08-24-2007, 02:02 PM
I don't see Jose getting dumped. I would be stunned if anyone took him on at 1/2 his salary. The difference between the guys you mentioned and Jose is neither of those mediocre pitchers is possibly in their early to mid 40's. Also, those guys may suck, but you don't have to give up anything other than cash for them. Better to take a mediocre 30 year old for just money than a mediocre 36-42 year old who costs at least a low-level prospect. The Sox will have to eat a significant chunk of salary to move that contract. And if you trade Garland, then you have a rotation of Buehrle, Vazquez, Contreras, Danks, and Broadway/Gonzalez/Floyd. I don't think that team wins unless A-Rod can hit 600/900/2400 or so. And be cloned to make 3 of him.

Problem is that the team is already commited to nearly 90 million for next year. And that is without factoring in Crede, Uribe, Pods, Erstad, or Cintron. If they were to go sign A-Rod for $20 million a year then you're basically committing to playing kids in LF, CF, 3B, 2B, and a couple bench spots, and the entire bullpen.

You're getting kids in 3B/LF(Fields), CF/LF(Owens), 2B(Richar) like it or not (see Kenny's recent comments). So you're talking one slot more that's a rookie. And that assumes that you nontender Crede, if not you just have 3 rookies. Is Rowand/Hunter+Uribe/Vizquel really better than Sweeney/Owens + Arod? No chance. Is Rowand/Hunter+Uribe/Vizquel + Mackowiak/Cintron better than ARod+Sweeney/Owens+Gonzalez/Terrero? Likewise - no.

As for Jose, a team could give up a guy who's about to be a minor league FA (ala Borchard) for him and lose nothing. It's like signing him to an FA deal, only a shorter term and possibly even a cheaper salary than any comparable FA.

Maybe you haven't realized how bad Contreras has been. I'm sure some team would rather pay Lohse than Contreras...and it's not going to take them $12/year to do it, either.

We're stuck with Contreras, it's time to deal with it. Hopefully he turns it around because I highly doubt we will be able to get rid of him. Unless he suddenly becomes an ace again for the rest of the year, which seems unlikely. People keep saying that we'll just have to eat most of the contract, but the Sox do not do business that way. They're either dumping the whole thing, or they're keeping him. And since he's lost 16 games and has an ERA over 6, his velocity was back down again in his last start, etc., we're not going to dump it.

Go back and look at what Jason Marquis did last year to "earn" his 3/$21 deal. Or what Adam Eaton did to "earn" his 3/$24 deal. Factor in a bit of inflation year over year and Jose putting up an ERA near 6 on a 2/$20 deal isn't that bad - especially because if it's a mistake, it's a shorter term one.

Now Jose would have to keep his end of the bargain on that and actually go forward with an ERA near 6 rather than the 10 or whatever it was in July. But his last start was just that - 6IP, 4ER, 6H, 1BB, 3K. If he puts those kind of outings up down the stretch, I'd be fairly confident of moving him and not eating more than a couple mil in salary.