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View Full Version : Offense or Bullpen, which hurt the '07 more?


DrCrawdad
08-15-2007, 09:23 AM
I'd like to see the outcome of a vote from my fellow Sox fans about which has hurt the Sox more, the offense or the bullpen.

On one side is the fact that the Sox scored the fewest runs in the American League and rank low in other offensive categories. On the other side (and this is where I reside) is the view that the bullpen has cost the Sox dearly. While Jenks has largely been fine, the 'pen hurt when the Sox could have kept in the race.

So, where do you fall? Bullpen or Offense?

oeo
08-15-2007, 09:39 AM
They both played their part.

But, I still feel had we had a good bullpen, even with our offensive woes, we would have stayed close for most of the year and at the very least, within striking distance of Detroit. Over the first month and a half, the bullpen was solid, and we stayed over .500, even with our awful offensive production...once that went down, the whole team did.

soltrain21
08-15-2007, 09:46 AM
The offense put us in the hole early, the bullpen let off a grenade in said hole.

balke
08-15-2007, 09:50 AM
I think people will say offense now that the bullpen looks fine. The bullpen absolutely killed the Sox when they were down.

I think the offense looks fine, its the injuries that hurt the offense.

MisterB
08-15-2007, 09:59 AM
I asked myself the other day "How is Detroit winning?", and was surprised to find that the Tigers' pitching is not that much better than the Sox - the big difference was Detroit has the #2 offense in the A.L. and the Sox are dead last. I believe if the Sox offense was producing like it was last year (3rd in the A.L.) we'd be right in the thick of it, even with a shoddy bullpen.

DrCrawdad
08-15-2007, 10:05 AM
I asked myself the other day "How is Detroit winning?", and was surprised to find that the Tigers' pitching is not that much better than the Sox - the big difference was Detroit has the #2 offense in the A.L. and the Sox are dead last. I believe if the Sox offense was producing like it was last year (3rd in the A.L.) we'd be right in the thick of it, even with a shoddy bullpen.

This is very similar to what a friend said to me about the BP vs. Offense.

Sure, the bullpen is in the bottom ten, but if the Sox and the Tigers were to swap bullpens there wouldn't be a big change in the standings; swap offenses and the Sox are probably in contention and the Tigers probably aren't. I know it's a lot more emotionally frustrating when the bullpen blows a game you thought you had in hand than when they put up an average of two runs a game for a few weeks straight (numbers there hypotheticals, not drawn from game records), but that doesn't change what's more relevant to the team's overall won-loss record.

The offensive stats are easy to find and compare. From what I've seen, the bullpen stats are elusive. How does the Sox BP compare to Detroit's as far as blown saves, ERA, W/L, blown holds, inherited runs allowed, etc?

TheOldRoman
08-15-2007, 10:07 AM
I honestly think the offense has a lot to do with the bullpen being terrible. The bullpen was full of young kids you went south in a hurry (with the exception of MacDougal and Thornton, who weren't young). The bullpen was pitching in way too many tight games early. They were good for a month plus of the Sox having no offense. But I think the constant one run games and tight situations wore on these kids more than it normally would. When you have $60 million or so worth of offense doing jack ****, it would be a little intimidating knowing that you get a loss if you let a third run in. Things started going really bad for the pen, and it was a horrible rut that they just couldn't get out of. Everyone aside from Bobby was terrible. When a team is struggling to score for so long, and the pitching is solid, sooner or later the stress will wear on the pitching. They just exploded.
The bullpen cost us a lot of games, but I fully believe that Aardsma, Massett, and Sisco would still be on the major league squad doing mediocre at worst had the offense even been respectable. This high paid offense picked up where it left off last year.

MisterB
08-15-2007, 10:29 AM
The offensive stats are easy to find and compare. From what I've seen, the bullpen stats are elusive. How does the Sox BP compare to Detroit's as far as blown saves, ERA, W/L, blown holds, inherited runs allowed, etc?

From what I can find:

Det BP: 17-19, 4.67, 37sv/17bs, 1.50whip, .768 OPS allowed
Sox BP: 14-17, 5.27, 34sv/18bs, 1.57whip, .776 OPS allowed

soxfan13
08-15-2007, 10:41 AM
I would have to say the bullpen. Like previously stated the beginning of the year the bullpen was lights out and the offense was horrendous but the Sox were 4 or 5 games above .500. Once the bullpen imploded and combined with that horrendous offense the season went south very fast.

balke
08-15-2007, 10:45 AM
This is a team built around the pitching as well, and the bullpen really killed a lot of great outings for the Sox' Starters.

The Sox can win without an overabundant offense. I think they look real strong now offensively, I'm still worried a bit about the bullpen for next season. Some of the games the Sox lost due to the bullpen were only going to get worse. No matter what offense was out there, then bullpen was going to lose the game.

SBSoxFan
08-15-2007, 12:19 PM
I have to go with the offense on this one. The bullpen has been great at times and stayed in a groove for awhile. Neither can be said about the offense.

SoxSpeed22
08-15-2007, 12:28 PM
April to early may, the offense was killing us. Late may to July, it was the bullpen. The offense has always been bad though, so that's why I said offense.

balke
08-15-2007, 12:37 PM
In July and August the team is hitting above .260. They had 145 RBI last month, with 56 so far this month.


Compare that with June when they hit .237 with 93 RBI.

I don't have the bullpen total for July, but the total ERA was 4.33, the 2nd lowest month of the season. July they had their highest ERA.

The Sox were the most games back of the season in June, and had the best record in July.


So the pitchings 2nd best month was the Sox Offense's worst month. The best offensive month came when the ERA of the team went through the roof. A lot of that would've been Contreras and Garland though I believe.

HomeFish
08-15-2007, 02:29 PM
The offense blew in 2005 too. We didn't have a single player above .300, and I seem to recall only Podsednik hitting over .290.

But the bullpen in 2005 was a marvel to behold. It's what won that season for us. And I think it's deterioration is what killed us in 2007. With a good bullpen, we'd be in position to compete again after the offense recovered.

Cuck_The_Fubs
08-15-2007, 02:35 PM
I honestly think the offense has a lot to do with the bullpen being terrible. The bullpen was full of young kids you went south in a hurry (with the exception of MacDougal and Thornton, who weren't young). The bullpen was pitching in way too many tight games early. They were good for a month plus of the Sox having no offense. But I think the constant one run games and tight situations wore on these kids more than it normally would. When you have $60 million or so worth of offense doing jack ****, it would be a little intimidating knowing that you get a loss if you let a third run in. Things started going really bad for the pen, and it was a horrible rut that they just couldn't get out of. Everyone aside from Bobby was terrible. When a team is struggling to score for so long, and the pitching is solid, sooner or later the stress will wear on the pitching. They just exploded.
The bullpen cost us a lot of games, but I fully believe that Aardsma, Massett, and Sisco would still be on the major league squad doing mediocre at worst had the offense even been respectable. This high paid offense picked up where it left off last year.

Great insight about why our bullpen went south this year. I completely agree with everything you said.

balke
08-15-2007, 02:41 PM
Side note: I had to peek at what the Yankees hitting is like this season. they hit .320 last month with 45 HR's and 195 RBI!!!

LITTLE NELL
08-15-2007, 02:44 PM
It was a tie. Right now the bullpen might be better.

chisoxfanatic
08-15-2007, 03:10 PM
The bullpen blew a ton of winnable games. It's no doubt the bullpen is the most responsible for the struggles this season.

Corlose 15
08-15-2007, 03:19 PM
I think they're both to blame. The offense cost the Sox games early and the Bullpen later.

However, I think the biggest culprit is the fact that they happened at the same time too. The bullpen totally collapsed and the offense hadn't quite heated up yet. I mean, when Sisco, Aardsma, MacDougal, and Masset all started going south Dye, Crede, Pierzynski, and Konerko were all still hitting like garbage.

Chisox353014
08-15-2007, 03:39 PM
They both played their part.

But, I still feel had we had a good bullpen, even with our offensive woes, we would have stayed close for most of the year and at the very least, within striking distance of Detroit. Over the first month and a half, the bullpen was solid, and we stayed over .500, even with our awful offensive production...once that went down, the whole team did.

I agree. How many games did the bullpen blow that directly resulted in losses this year? Turn even 4 or 5 of those into wins and we're still in the race at this point.

Patrick134
08-15-2007, 04:16 PM
The bullpen blew a ton of winnable games. It's no doubt the bullpen is the most responsible for the struggles this season.


The bullpen blew it's share of wins. But more often , it was runs being added on to games we were never going to win because of the pathetic performance of the offense.

TomBradley72
08-15-2007, 04:55 PM
I voted for the offense. The latest round of batting averages I saw had our LEADING hitter's batting average in the .260s...this is 2007 not 1967...no other MLB team is even close.

We're dead last in the AL in runs scored, we've scored 204 fewer runs than the league leader, 28 fewers runs than the 2nd worst team in the AL. We're last in runs scored, hits, doubles, Avg, OBP,OPS, Stealing Percentage, we're 12th in SLG, we're 12th in SBs but 4th in Caught Stealing, 5th in GDP (while getting the fewest runners on base....not easy to do). Whether related to injuries or other factors...we have nothing going on the offensive side of the game.