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RCWHITESOX
08-13-2007, 04:29 PM
Please explain why so many of you are high on this guy. Outside of his being a young potential prospect he sure hasn't shown much this year. He has an era of 5.22 won 6 lost 10 and given up 25 homeruns. His last outing he continued to get behind and got lit up for 3 more homers. I see the Sox with 3 dependable pitchers Buehrle, Vasquez, and Garland and he is in a contract year. Outside of looking in the off season for position players I think we better look to add another veteran starter.

itsnotrequired
08-13-2007, 04:34 PM
I hate 22-year-old, number 5 pitchers that show tremendous potential, are paid peanuts and under team control for another 5 years.

:rolleyes:

chisoxmike
08-13-2007, 04:36 PM
Danks has been pretty impressive for a rookie.

He may be starting to get a bit tired now but he's been far from disapointing. Don't look at his W-L record, he had some tough luck losses in April and May where our pathetic offense coulnd't score for him. And about his ERA, he's been getting shelled lately.

I'm perfectly fine with him in the roation in 2008. Buehrle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks should be fine. The Sox will need to get a proven starter to finish out the rotation.

eriqjaffe
08-13-2007, 04:36 PM
I hate 22-year-old, left-handed, number 5 pitchers that show tremendous potential, are paid peanuts and under team control for another 5 years.

:rolleyes:You forgot something there...

The Immigrant
08-13-2007, 04:36 PM
I think we should trade him to the Red Sox for Wily Mo Pena.

And, of course:

:threadsucks

itsnotrequired
08-13-2007, 04:37 PM
You forgot something there...

I also forgot that we traded him for a "polished workhorse". Oh, and the Sox also got two more pitchers out of the deal.

KW is fleeced once again...

upperdeckusc
08-13-2007, 04:37 PM
you also have to take into account this IS the most innings he has thrown in a full season in his entire life. and like INR stated, HE'S OUR #5!!! and dont bring up his record because he should have at least 3-5 more wins because he was getting hosed early in the yr when he was dead on his game, but there was no offensive support. didnt he receive like 5 runs of support in his first 4 games??? *****.....

The Immigrant
08-13-2007, 04:38 PM
The Sox will need to get a proven starter to finish out the rotation.

Not likely. One of either Floyd, Gonzales or Egbert will be the 5th starter next season if Contreras is moved.

FedEx227
08-13-2007, 04:39 PM
Please explain why so many of you are high on this guy. Outside of his being a young potential prospect he sure hasn't shown much this year. He has an era of 5.22 won 6 lost 10 and given up 25 homeruns. His last outing he continued to get behind and got lit up for 3 more homers. I see the Sox with 3 dependable pitchers Buehrle, Vasquez, and Garland and he is in a contract year. Outside of looking in the off season for position players I think we better look to another veteran starter.

Yes, he's had his rough patches, but you have to remember he's still in his first big league year and is only 22 years old. So I'm willing to give him some leway for his rough games, because he has for the most part been DECENT and has shown potential.

3.88 P/PA needs to go down, he's getting down in counts WAAY too early.
7.06 K/9 is something I like, along with 2.09 K/BB. But he really needs to get working on a good sinker or splitter, because obviously he's a pitch for contact pitcher.

Boondock Saint
08-13-2007, 04:40 PM
Please explain why so many of you are high on this guy. Outside of his being a young potential prospect he sure hasn't shown much this year. He has an era of 5.22 won 6 lost 10 and given up 25 homeruns. His last outing he continued to get behind and got lit up for 3 more homers. I see the Sox with 3 dependable pitchers Buehrle, Vasquez, and Garland and he is in a contract year. Outside of looking in the off season for position players I think we better look to another veteran starter.

You're kidding, right? A rookie #5 starter who could have ten wins if it weren't for a month and a half of damned near zero run support, and you don't see why we like him? You have got to be the only guy that doesn't see what he's got.

FedEx227
08-13-2007, 04:44 PM
Yes, lets go out and spend money on Bruce Chen or Rodrigo Lopez. Let's not save up that money and get some god-damn run support for 22 year old, cheap, lefty starter.

chisoxmike
08-13-2007, 04:45 PM
Not likely. One of either Floyd, Gonzales or Egbert will be the 5th starter next season if Contreras is moved.

I can't imagine they would have Danks in his second year and a rookie in the starting rotation next year. I like Danks, but I hope we could get someone to take the Contreras spot through a FA signing or trade. Not another rookie that you would have to go through growing pains again. We're looking to compete in 2008.

oeo
08-13-2007, 04:48 PM
Please explain why so many of you are high on this guy. Outside of his being a young potential prospect he sure hasn't shown much this year. He has an era of 5.22 won 6 lost 10 and given up 25 homeruns. His last outing he continued to get behind and got lit up for 3 more homers. I see the Sox with 3 dependable pitchers Buehrle, Vasquez, and Garland and he is in a contract year. Outside of looking in the off season for position players I think we better look to add another veteran starter.

This is because you're obviously setting your expectations way too high. Look back at the predictions for his season this year and many thought he was going to be a top of the rotation guy, a sure thing for rookie of the year. There were not many that were realistic...that he will have his ups and downs, and may not even have an ERA below 5. I know I said that I would be very happy if he had an ERA a little over 5 before the season, and I am very happy with what I've seen.

FedEx227
08-13-2007, 04:54 PM
^ Exactly, I think I had him begged at something like 10-12, 5 ERA and I'd be happy. You have to remember this is our 5th starter who hasn't had one injury or complete meltdown, you don't fine that very often.

balke
08-13-2007, 04:55 PM
Some people were guaranteeing 12 wins out of the 5 spot this season, but I think that was more for Gavin Floyd.

John Danks had a great 1st half, with some bad luck. He's looking pretty human now in the second half though I'd say. Could be related to the Sox wanting to give him less innings. I think pitchers generally get fatigued at seasons end from pitching, and they have to learn and develop that. I may be wrong though, but I'm pretty sure I've heard that before.

RCWHITESOX
08-13-2007, 05:09 PM
This is because you're obviously setting your expectations way too high. Look back at the predictions for his season this year and many thought he was going to be a top of the rotation guy, a sure thing for rookie of the year. There were not many that were realistic...that he will have his ups and downs, and may not even have an ERA below 5. I know I said that I would be very happy if he had an ERA a little over 5 before the season, and I am very happy with what I've seen.

I'm just looking around the league and see where others to name a few have put up much better numbers. C Hamels, T Gorzelanny, J Saunders, and J Weaver. If were looking to win now and not later than I guess Danks numbers are OK. I'm not saying he stinks; I'm saying I was hoping he would have progressed more than he has.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-13-2007, 05:09 PM
If you want to get an idea of what Danks is worth, just ask yourself one question: Who would you rather have, McCarthy or Danks?

That is a no-brainer: Danks. He has a lot more upside and has shown a lot of ability. Yes, he's been knocked around in some of his starts, but he just turned 22. He was supposed to be in AAA this year but rose to the occasion in spring training and won the fifth starter position because of his talent and because he's a competitor.

Give him some time to learn how to pitch in the big leagues. He has a very, very high ceiling.

oeo
08-13-2007, 05:13 PM
I'm just looking around the league and see where others to name a few have put up much better numbers. C Hamels, T Gorzelanny, J Saunders, and J Weaver. If were looking to win now and not later than I guess Danks numbers are OK. I'm not saying he stinks; I'm saying I was hoping he would have progressed more than he has.

And all those guys had big league experience coming into this year (not to mention Saunders and Gorzelanny are both 3+ years older than Danks). As someone just mentioned...Danks was supposed to start the year in AAA. He was the best available 5th starter, though, and I think he's done fine. Look at those 5th starters we had for years and I can't see why you'd be complaining about Danks. Not only has he been very solid until recently, he shows great (not just good) potential.

Mr. White Sox
08-13-2007, 05:16 PM
Danks is leaving the ball up in the zone, which leads to lots and lots of HRs. Jon Garland used to do the same thing. If Danks can harness some control and a consistent curveball, he's going to be one of the better starters in the rotation (and even the AL) in due time. US Cellular will hamper his development somewhat, but I expect quite a bit from this guy in the coming years.

FedEx227
08-13-2007, 05:25 PM
I'm just looking around the league and see where others to name a few have put up much better numbers. C Hamels, T Gorzelanny, J Saunders, and J Weaver. If were looking to win now and not later than I guess Danks numbers are OK. I'm not saying he stinks; I'm saying I was hoping he would have progressed more than he has.

Good comparisons.

Cole Hamels: 23 years old, 1st rounder (17th pick)
Tom Gorzelanny: 25 years old, 2nd rounder
Joe Saunders: 26 years old, 1st rounder (12th pick)
Jered Weaver: 25 years old, 1st rounder (12th pick)
John Danks: 22 years old, 1st rounder (9th pick)

If you still look at that Danks is still the youngest, and in my mind is still the most raw out of the bunch.

And don't let draft position fool you, Weaver if not for one Scott Boras would have easily been a no.1 pick, plus he played TOP college baseball. Many times players are drafted out of signability, many of the guys taken after Danks were obviously more talented (Billingsley), but not as easily signable.

JB98
08-13-2007, 08:12 PM
Please explain why so many of you are high on this guy. Outside of his being a young potential prospect he sure hasn't shown much this year. He has an era of 5.22 won 6 lost 10 and given up 25 homeruns. His last outing he continued to get behind and got lit up for 3 more homers. I see the Sox with 3 dependable pitchers Buehrle, Vasquez, and Garland and he is in a contract year. Outside of looking in the off season for position players I think we better look to add another veteran starter.

Danks has a good fastball, an outstanding deuce and an improving changeup. His record should be reversed *his teammates have given him horse**** for run support this year.

When he's bad, he's real bad. But every young pitcher goes through that. I'm optimistic about him.

cws05champ
08-13-2007, 08:52 PM
Good comparisons.

Cole Hamels: 23 years old, 1st rounder (17th pick)
Tom Gorzelanny: 25 years old, 2nd rounder
Joe Saunders: 26 years old, 1st rounder (12th pick)
Jered Weaver: 25 years old, 1st rounder (12th pick)
John Danks: 22 years old, 1st rounder (9th pick)

If you still look at that Danks is still the youngest, and in my mind is still the most raw out of the bunch.

And don't let draft position fool you, Weaver if not for one Scott Boras would have easily been a no.1 pick, plus he played TOP college baseball. Many times players are drafted out of signability, many of the guys taken after Danks were obviously more talented (Billingsley), but not as easily signable.

I'm not saying he'll be Johan Santana... but Johan Santana's rookie season at 21 years old: 2-3 6.49 ERA in 30 games(5 starts), gave up 11HR in 86 IP.

You have to be a little patient with these young pitchers for them to develop. If I were the Sox I would have Ozzie Guillen hook up Danks with Johan in the offseason and order him to learn everything he knows about throwing that change. If Danks can command his change (and arm speed) he will dramatically improve next year.

Zisk77
08-13-2007, 09:26 PM
Please explain why so many of you are high on this guy. Outside of his being a young potential prospect he sure hasn't shown much this year. He has an era of 5.22 won 6 lost 10 and given up 25 homeruns. His last outing he continued to get behind and got lit up for 3 more homers. I see the Sox with 3 dependable pitchers Buehrle, Vasquez, and Garland and he is in a contract year. Outside of looking in the off season for position players I think we better look to add another veteran starter.

Have you watched any of his games or are you just looking at statistics? The start before last he gave up a bloop 2 rbi single against the tribe at thats it. giving up 3 or less runs in 6 or more innings is called a quality start. You should win most quality starts. Danks lost 2-1. Danks has had a bunch of quality starts but few wins. He could easily be something like 12-4 now and considered for ROY. Unfortunatly, our offense has usually put a knife in his back. Don't be surprised if Danks gets shelled a bit down the stretch as many rookies run out of gas their first full year.

UserNameBlank
08-14-2007, 12:30 AM
Have you watched any of his games or are you just looking at statistics? The start before last he gave up a bloop 2 rbi single against the tribe at thats it. giving up 3 or less runs in 6 or more innings is called a quality start. You should win most quality starts. Danks lost 2-1. Danks has had a bunch of quality starts but few wins. He could easily be something like 12-4 now and considered for ROY. Unfortunatly, our offense has usually put a knife in his back. Don't be surprised if Danks gets shelled a bit down the stretch as many rookies run out of gas their first full year.
He's had 8 quality starts and is 3-3 in them. If he won them all he'd be 11-7, but still, that's good for a rookie who really was rushed to the big leagues.

The thing I like more than anything about Danks is his mentality. He isn't happy with himself if he even gives up one run or allows one walk, which I really like. He seems strong enough to take criticism and looks like he will be a battler. He needs to improve his control and keep his offspeed stuff down, but he certainly seems to have the willingness to improve. I expect pretty big things out of him his second year, like an ERA in the 4's and no less than 12 wins, depending on the quality of the 2008 team. He looks like a guy who will work very hard in the offseason to get where he wants to be.

Grzegorz
08-14-2007, 05:48 AM
Danks will be fine; he's a young pitcher feeling his way through the major leagues.

Give him time...

soxfan13
08-14-2007, 10:04 AM
I'm just looking around the league and see where others to name a few have put up much better numbers. C Hamels, T Gorzelanny, J Saunders, and J Weaver. If were looking to win now and not later than I guess Danks numbers are OK. I'm not saying he stinks; I'm saying I was hoping he would have progressed more than he has.

Look around the league a little harder. He is a very young number 5 pitcher, that as many posters have said, easily could have a double digit win record. This kid has really shown me alot. You have to remember he is learning on the run here and I think he has handled it very well. There are quite a few teams that wouldnt mind having him as their number 5. I am not saying he can be an ace of a staff but I think he has shown more then enough to be a very dependable 2 or 3 in a rotation. in the future.

jenn2080
08-14-2007, 10:51 AM
Please explain why so many of you are high on this guy. Outside of his being a young potential prospect he sure hasn't shown much this year. He has an era of 5.22 won 6 lost 10 and given up 25 homeruns. His last outing he continued to get behind and got lit up for 3 more homers. I see the Sox with 3 dependable pitchers Buehrle, Vasquez, and Garland and he is in a contract year. Outside of looking in the off season for position players I think we better look to add another veteran starter.


Yeah I mean he is not a 22 yr old rookie in the starting rotation or anything like that. The guy shows potential. Rip on him when he has been in the big leagues for a few more years and is still getting lit up.

SoxxoS
08-14-2007, 11:23 AM
The thing I like more than anything about Danks is his mentality. He isn't happy with himself if he even gives up one run or allows one walk, which I really like. He seems strong enough to take criticism and looks like he will be a battler. He needs to improve his control and keep his offspeed stuff down, but he certainly seems to have the willingness to improve. I expect pretty big things out of him his second year, like an ERA in the 4's and no less than 12 wins, depending on the quality of the 2008 team. He looks like a guy who will work very hard in the offseason to get where he wants to be.


And this is a huge asset - What good is all world talent when you are mentally fragile - See Ankiel, Rick and to a lesser extent, possibly, Gavin Floyd.

rdivaldi
08-14-2007, 11:44 AM
Ugh, play me a tune Dizzy....

:threadblows:

TomBradley72
08-14-2007, 12:08 PM
Please explain why so many of you are high on this guy. Outside of his being a young potential prospect he sure hasn't shown much this year. He has an era of 5.22 won 6 lost 10 and given up 25 homeruns. His last outing he continued to get behind and got lit up for 3 more homers. I see the Sox with 3 dependable pitchers Buehrle, Vasquez, and Garland and he is in a contract year. Outside of looking in the off season for position players I think we better look to add another veteran starter.

If we were in a pennant race...Danks would no longer be in the rotation with his "Danny Wright" numbers. But this year, we're out of it, and can focus on his potential...which seems to be real. When a team sucks....any signs of potential in players gets inflated.

Remember how excited we were about Richar a few weeks ago? He's hitting .188.

soxfan13
08-14-2007, 12:17 PM
If we were in a pennant race...Danks would no longer be in the rotation with his "Danny Wright" numbers. But this year, we're out of it, and can focus on his potential...which seems to be real. When a team sucks....any signs of potential in players gets inflated.

Remember how excited we were about Richar a few weeks ago? He's hitting .188.

Danny Wright would have killed for Danks numbers!!!

eriqjaffe
08-14-2007, 12:27 PM
If we were in a pennant race...Danks would no longer be in the rotation with his "Danny Wright" numbers.How about with his "Orlando Hernandez" numbers?

W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
Hernandez 2005 9 9 24 22 0 0 1 1 128.3 137 77 73 18 50 91 12 3 568 1 2 5.12 4.45 87 1.457
Danks 2007 6 10 22 22 0 0 0 0 122.3 136 75 71 25 46 96 3 1 539 4 0 5.22 4.57 88 1.488

The only real variance is the number of HRs allowed - everything else is almost identical, and IIRC, the Sox did alright in 2005.

soxinem1
08-14-2007, 12:28 PM
The biggest issue with Danks is his durability. That is why Guillen has rarely had him throw more than six innings, and has really kept him at or under 100 on his pitch counts. He is being stretched out further than he ever has, and is in unfamiliar waters.

If it was me, though I hate even the five man rotation, I'd go to six for the rest of the year. By doing this you help him get used to a 162 game season, and you keep him throwing.

I for one think his control has been godd, and his K/BB ratio is fine, as it is over 2/1. But he tips and hangs too many pitches, including his fastball.

All of this improves with experience, if he learns from his mistakes.

Remember Greg Maddux going 6-14 his rookie year? Or Johan Santana and his near 6.50 ERA his rookie year?

Or better yet, how about having our fifth starters for the past, say, 13 seasons?

Danks, if he keeps showing the maturity he has, will be fine. It's not like he's in the middle of a pennant race, but he sure may have a shot to help be a spoiler.

At the same time, I'm not too quick to slam Brandon McCarthy. I believe he will have a solid career as a starter, though maybe not in TEX. I'll bet any team in MLB, except us, would snatch him up in a second.

Huisj
08-14-2007, 12:39 PM
How about with his "Orlando Hernandez" numbers?

W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
Hernandez 2005 9 9 24 22 0 0 1 1 128.3 137 77 73 18 50 91 12 3 568 1 2 5.12 4.45 87 1.457
Danks 2007 6 10 22 22 0 0 0 0 122.3 136 75 71 25 46 96 3 1 539 4 0 5.22 4.57 88 1.488The only real variance is the number of HRs allowed - everything else is almost identical, and IIRC, the Sox did alright in 2005.


That is really a heck of a good comparison. Those stats are amazingly similar.

And about the Danny Wright numbers, I think a lot of people forget that he actually put together parts of a decent season in 2002. He threw almost 200 innings and won 14 games. He had a good arm and looked like he had a little bit of promise to at least be a decent back of the rotation guy, and then he totally fell apart and had his arm just about fall off--didn't he eventually have shoulder and elbow surgery at pretty much the same time?

itsnotrequired
08-14-2007, 12:44 PM
That is really a heck of a good comparison. Those stats are amazingly similar.

The big difference is that Hernandez was getting paid $3.5 million while Danks is getting paid $380k. Danks is also 20 years younger.

Gammons Peter
08-14-2007, 02:13 PM
why is this in "what's the score?"

TornLabrum
08-14-2007, 04:29 PM
Ugh, play me a tune Dizzy....

:threadblows:

Louis: http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=5890&rendTypeId=4

Dizzy: http://www.jazzphoto.ch/images/Dizzy_Gillespie.jpg

UserNameBlank
08-14-2007, 05:48 PM
Remember how excited we were about Richar a few weeks ago? He's hitting .188.

Well if we're all going to look at small sample sizes, why not look at his .316 OBP which is a whopping 128 points higher than his batting average.

Danny has shown good instincts in the field, very good range, a nice arm, some speed, some patience at the plate, a quick bat, and some pop. Danny is looking like a very nice pickup by Kenny. He needs to lay off the high fastball but I think that will come once he adjusts to his role and place in the lineup better. He is our future no. 2 hitter. Fields is an RBI guy, and I'm not sure why Ozzie has him in the 2 spot over Danny right now (actually I think it's because Fields has put down good bunts before, which is also something Danny can do).

Tragg
08-14-2007, 06:13 PM
(actually I think it's because Fields has put down good bunts before, which is also something Danny can do).
If I accept the notion that bunting is an important strategy - why is bunting an important skill for a 2 hitter, when home-run hitters immediately follow the 2 hitter?

I can see it for the 7 hitter. But the 2 hitter?

Richar did a nice job working the count Saturday night.

And leave Danks alone...he's a promising young pitcher.

UserNameBlank
08-14-2007, 06:33 PM
If I accept the notion that bunting is an important strategy - why is bunting an important skill for a 2 hitter, when home-run hitters immediately follow the 2 hitter?

I can see it for the 7 hitter. But the 2 hitter?

Richar did a nice job working the count Saturday night.

And leave Danks alone...he's a promising young pitcher.
Ask Ozzie. He regularly bunts over leadoff hitters that can run to bring up his middle of the order with a RISP.

dickallen15
08-14-2007, 06:55 PM
If we were in a pennant race...Danks would no longer be in the rotation with his "Danny Wright" numbers. But this year, we're out of it, and can focus on his potential...which seems to be real. When a team sucks....any signs of potential in players gets inflated.

Remember how excited we were about Richar a few weeks ago? He's hitting .188.
You are absolutely right. If the Sox were contending Danks would be in Charlotte.

UserNameBlank
08-14-2007, 07:04 PM
You are absolutely right. If the Sox were contending Danks would be in Charlotte.
If the Sox were contending and sent any member of our rotation to Charlotte it would be Jose Contreras. If not, Jose would be in the bullpen and we'd still need to replace him with someone else. Floyd wouldn't be doing the job, so the revolving door would probably start with Gio or Egbert. Either way Danks would still be up here.