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LITTLE NELL
08-12-2007, 11:24 AM
Why is 38,500 consdered a sellout at USCF when official capacity is 40,615. I know there are some comps but 2000 all the time? Looking at attendance figures around baseball it seem we are the only team that never matches capacity when theres a sellout. Last night at least 4 teams had over capacity crowds. Also do the Sox with its huge concourse sell standing room only tickets?

TornLabrum
08-12-2007, 11:46 AM
Why is 38,500 consdered a sellout at USCF when official capacity is 40,615. I know there are some comps but 2000 all the time? Looking at attendance figures around baseball it seem we are the only team that never matches capacity when theres a sellout. Last night at least 4 teams had over capacity crowds. Also do the Sox with its huge concourse sell standing room only tickets?

1) Comps
2) Fire ordinances

LITTLE NELL
08-12-2007, 11:49 AM
Dont the Flubs have fire ordinances?

itsnotrequired
08-12-2007, 11:50 AM
Dont the Flubs have fire ordinances?

Sure they do. So do all MLB teams. How well are they enforced? Beats me...

The Sox sell SRO tickets from time-to-time.

LITTLE NELL
08-12-2007, 11:54 AM
Its just sort of strange that we never have a crowd over 40,000, there cannot be 2000 comps every time theres a sellout.

itsnotrequired
08-12-2007, 11:58 AM
Its just sort of strange that we never have a crowd over 40,000, there cannot be 2000 comps every time theres a sellout.

They'll hit 40,000 from time to time (usually during the Cubs series). With all the group outings, sponsored nights, etc. that the Sox do, it isn't that surprising to see 2,000 comps a game. Remember, capacity is only a touch over 40k.

soxfanreggie
08-12-2007, 12:38 PM
I went to a school that would have 4,000 at some basketball games turn into 5,500-6,000 easily when it came to announcing attendnace. It is very easy to exaggerate attendance, including by giving away tons of comped tickets.

I think our school figured in players, cheerleaders, referees, all the working concessions staff and ushers, and the mascot in the attendance some games. Another game the marketing staff put t-shirts on the chair backs. I think those were counted before the games and added in.

LITTLE NELL
08-12-2007, 12:52 PM
Looking at Espn attendance figures the Sox have not drawn over 40000 for a regular season game since the lopping off of the upper deck in 2004. The only games we reached capacity was in the 2005 postseason. It just seems strange that we are the only team in MLB that does not reach capacity for sellouts.

TDog
08-12-2007, 02:00 PM
Sure they do. So do all MLB teams. How well are they enforced? Beats me...

The Sox sell SRO tickets from time-to-time.

In 1972, I think, Old Comiskey set a record for attendance at a Chicago baseball game at 55,555. Pictures in the Tribune showed people lining the walkways on both sides of the scoreboard. In 1977, when Bill Veeck had the good fortune of having a team that was sparking the imagination of the city, he said the previous owners must not have paid any attention to fire codes because there is no way he could fit that many people into the ballpark.

I haven't heard of the Sox selling standing room only admissions for some years. If they don't when they could, I think that speaks well of management.

LITTLE NELL
08-12-2007, 02:20 PM
In 1972, I think, Old Comiskey set a record for attendance at a Chicago baseball game at 55,555. Pictures in the Tribune showed people lining the walkways on both sides of the scoreboard. In 1977, when Bill Veeck had the good fortune of having a team that was sparking the imagination of the city, he said the previous owners must not have paid any attention to fire codes because there is no way he could fit that many people into the ballpark.

I haven't heard of the Sox selling standing room only admissions for some years. If they don't when they could, I think that speaks well of management.
I remember that day. It was a Sunday DH against the Twins and the attendance was probably 48,000 at the most. The Sox padded the figure to show that the Sox were relevant again after 5 years of horrible support. I think the Sunshine boys also padded the 81 opener when they announced a crowd of 51,000. The largest crowd that I ever saw was at the 1964 Cubs exhibition game in June.They oversold the park and had fans standing on the warning track from CF to the RF Foul pole.

IlliniSox4Life
08-12-2007, 03:38 PM
Why is 38,500 consdered a sellout at USCF when official capacity is 40,615. I know there are some comps but 2000 all the time? Looking at attendance figures around baseball it seem we are the only team that never matches capacity when theres a sellout. Last night at least 4 teams had over capacity crowds. Also do the Sox with its huge concourse sell standing room only tickets?


SRO tickets are only sold at games that did not sell out until the day of the game. The thought being that people go to the park and expect to be able to buy a ticket, but it has sold out, so instead of making them go home they sell them a SRO ticket. If it sells out days before hand, they don't sell them.

LITTLE NELL
08-12-2007, 03:41 PM
That makes good sense.

itsnotrequired
08-12-2007, 05:03 PM
Looking at Espn attendance figures the Sox have not drawn over 40000 for a regular season game since the lopping off of the upper deck in 2004. The only games we reached capacity was in the 2005 postseason. It just seems strange that we are the only team in MLB that does not reach capacity for sellouts.

Well, I stand corrected. I thought the Sox drew over 40k against the Cubs last year but sure enough, they did not.

As far as I'm aware, all teams across the league report attendance as tickets sold. No one counts any comps.

IlliniSox4Life
08-12-2007, 05:10 PM
Well, I stand corrected. I thought the Sox drew over 40k against the Cubs last year but sure enough, they did not.

As far as I'm aware, all teams across the league report attendance as tickets sold. No one counts any comps.

I thought in the AL they counted actual attendance (people through the turnstiles), while in the NL they counted tickets sold. I'm not sure, could be wrong though.

itsnotrequired
08-12-2007, 05:40 PM
I thought in the AL they counted actual attendance (people through the turnstiles), while in the NL they counted tickets sold. I'm not sure, could be wrong though.

For the Sox it is definitely tickets sold.

Grobber33
08-12-2007, 06:48 PM
For the Sox it is definitely tickets sold.

You are correct. BUT ALL MLB teams list Tickets sold and have for many years. Until the early 80's the NL listed 'butts in the seats' while the AL went with Tickets Sold. The NL wanted the AL to also give true attendance,but were told NO.
So the NL decided to also give Tickets Sold. The NBA and NHL do the same. Most NFL teams do also,but the Bears are one of the few NFL clubs left that gives Tickets distributed as well as No Shows.
In Baseball,there are no longer any TRUE ATTENDANCE figures.
AS for the Fire Marshalls, the Blackhawks during the Bobby Hull/Stan Mikita era,used to announce 16,666 every night in the Stadium, but that was baloney. They often crammed in over 20,000 and never announced it as such.:tongue:

jortafan
08-12-2007, 07:47 PM
I thought in the AL they counted actual attendance (people through the turnstiles), while in the NL they counted tickets sold. I'm not sure, could be wrong though.

It used to be that the National League counted actual people through the turnstiles, regardless of whether they actually paid for a ticket or were comped. The American League counted the number of tickets sold, regardless of whether or not people actually showed up.

But such thinking went the way of separate umpire crews and presidents for each league. Now, both leagues count tickets sold.


It looks like I'm slow on the draw. Grobber's answer is much more thorough.

dcb56
08-13-2007, 03:24 AM
SRO tickets are only sold at games that did not sell out until the day of the game. The thought being that people go to the park and expect to be able to buy a ticket, but it has sold out, so instead of making them go home they sell them a SRO ticket. If it sells out days before hand, they don't sell them.

This is indeed true. A friend of mine was in town last year and wanted to join me and my season ticket partner for a Yankees game, but when he called on the day of the game the only thing they had were SRO tickets for 30 stinkin' dollars :mg:. He told the Sox to get murdered, and frankly I don't blame him.

anewman35
08-13-2007, 07:42 AM
This is indeed true. A friend of mine was in town last year and wanted to join me and my season ticket partner for a Yankees game, but when he called on the day of the game the only thing they had were SRO tickets for 30 stinkin' dollars :mg:. He told the Sox to get murdered, and frankly I don't blame him.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. So, because the Sox offered tickets (that he was under no obligation to buy), he told them to "get murdered"? Would it have been better if they had no tickets at all?

itsnotrequired
08-13-2007, 08:03 AM
This is indeed true. A friend of mine was in town last year and wanted to join me and my season ticket partner for a Yankees game, but when he called on the day of the game the only thing they had were SRO tickets for 30 stinkin' dollars :mg:. He told the Sox to get murdered, and frankly I don't blame him.

The Yankee games are Premier games. The cheapest lower level ticket a person can buy is in the bleachers and last year, those were $36 for Premier games.

So the Sox offer tickets when they don't have to, offer the cheapest ticket for the lower level and they should "get murdered"? Perhaps your friend should "get flogged"...

DumpJerry
08-13-2007, 08:06 AM
Why is so difficult to believe that the Sox give out 2,000 comps? They not only comp players, but military in uniform and corporate sponsors among others. It's real easy to reach 2,000.

itsnotrequired
08-13-2007, 08:09 AM
Why is so difficult to believe that the Sox give out 2,000 comps? They not only comp players, but military in uniform and corporate sponsors among others. It's real easy to reach 2,000.

You know what a good racket would be? If the Sox owned their own secondary broker agency! The Sox could sell the tickets to their broker firm and since the team sold them, they will count toward attendance even if the broker firm doesn't resell them! For more popular games, the tickets would surely sell and at a profit to boot! A win-win for everyone! How come no one has ever thought of this before?

Railsplitter
08-13-2007, 08:23 AM
Yeah there's fudging in attendance figures. Never believe it when a somebody says a million people lined a parade route, that includes to Tournament of Roses and The Macy's parade.

LITTLE NELL
08-13-2007, 01:25 PM
Why is so difficult to believe that the Sox give out 2,000 comps? They not only comp players, but military in uniform and corporate sponsors among others. It's real easy to reach 2,000.
Whats difficult to believe is that we have never drawn 40,615 (capacity) or over since the downsizing of the upper deck. Based on daily attendance figures we are the only team that this happens to.

DannyCaterFan
08-13-2007, 05:11 PM
I remember that day. It was a Sunday DH against the Twins and the attendance was probably 48,000 at the most. The Sox padded the figure to show that the Sox were relevant again after 5 years of horrible support. I think the Sunshine boys also padded the 81 opener when they announced a crowd of 51,000. The largest crowd that I ever saw was at the 1964 Cubs exhibition game in June.They oversold the park and had fans standing on the warning track from CF to the RF Foul pole.

I also was at that game in 73 where there were 55,555 in attendance. That may have been an accurate figure. There were people everywhere, on the catwalks, the aisles, and crowded throughout the stands and picnic area.

I am also puzzled why we never can hit 40,000 fans? Do they actually give that many tickets away? Are we that different from other teams?

areilly
08-13-2007, 09:47 PM
I am also puzzled why we never can hit 40,000 fans? Do they actually give that many tickets away? Are we that different from other teams?

People often forget the difference between the terms "sellout" and "capacity crowd." "Sellout" means you sold all the tickets created for the event; "capacity crowd" means there are no vacant seats or standing space whatsoever.

USCF hosts "capacity crowd" many times, namely Opening Day, Sox/Cubs games and postseason appearances. It makes sense they didn't sell 40k tickets to the 2005 playoff games, given that not only Sox players and staff were handing out comps but MLB and the Astros were as well - but anyone who was at any of those games (myself included) will tell you there were no seats left unfilled save for same-day emergency or death of a ticketholder.

It's not uncommon for teams to report different specific attendance numbers for different games but still cite each as sold out. Thinking about it more, it's technically possible the Sox haven't sold out a game in years.

russ99
08-13-2007, 10:02 PM
Whats difficult to believe is that we have never drawn 40,615 (capacity) or over since the downsizing of the upper deck. Based on daily attendance figures we are the only team that this happens to.

You got it - the Sox eliminated a lot of seats (6000 +) in that 8 row upper deck reduction to put the roof in. Unless the Sox add more seating (homer porch?) we'll probably never get above 40,000 again.

The official post-2004 capacity in my media guide is 40,615. With the comps, etc. that's probably why the official sellout capacity is 38,500.

The Sox had a 46,027 vs. the Cubs in 2002 and the record attendence is 47,609 for the 2003 All-star game.

itsnotrequired
08-13-2007, 10:41 PM
You got it - the Sox eliminated a lot of seats (6000 +) in that 8 row upper deck reduction to put the roof in. Unless the Sox add more seating (homer porch?) we'll probably never get above 40,000 again.

The official post-2004 capacity in my media guide is 40,615. With the comps, etc. that's probably why the official sellout capacity is 38,500.

The Sox had a 46,027 vs. the Cubs in 2002 and the record attendence is 47,609 for the 2003 All-star game.

38,500 is not an official sell out number. It varies from game to game. It gets really weird during season ticket exchange dates as all the turn-ins are comps. There isn't a place to sit and attendance is announced at something like 30,000...a sellout.

TDog
08-14-2007, 03:05 AM
... The largest crowd that I ever saw was at the 1964 Cubs exhibition game in June.They oversold the park and had fans standing on the warning track from CF to the RF Foul pole.

Do you remember that game? I ask because it may be the first game I attended as a kid. I couldn't see anything. My nearsightedness hadn't been diagnosed. I have no memories of what the crowd looked like. My father said if this batter swings and misses, the game would be over. All I could see was a blur and some movement of yellow. I don't know if this was in 1963 or 1964. I remember the score of the game was Sox 7, Cubs 2, but the baseball retrosheet doesn't list exhibition games.

The reason I didn't believe the 55,555 figure was inflated was that in those days, visiting teams got a percentage of the announced gate. That's no longer true, of course, but I couldn't imagine why a cheap owner would inflate attendance figures.

Nellie_Fox
08-14-2007, 03:28 AM
Do you remember that game? I ask because it may be the first game I attended as a kid. I couldn't see anything. My nearsightedness hadn't been diagnosed.Interesting. My nearsightedness was diagnosed when my dad took me to a ballgame and he discovered that I couldn't read the scoreboard. He had me at the optometrist that week. I thought everybody saw the world through a cloud like I did.

Soxfanspcu11
08-14-2007, 03:52 AM
A few things.....

Standing Room Only tickets are available at the ballpark only. They are made available only for a Sold Out game. If the game is Sold Out AFTER 48 Hours prior to the scheduled game time, then SRO is available for 24 Hours PRIOR to the game. Meaning, if a game sold out a day and a half before the game, you could purchase SRO at the park at 7:11PM, during that game, but not a minute before.

Also, as someone else mentioned, the Season Ticket Holder Comp days, there can technically be a "Sellout" with less than 30K. A "Season Ticket Holder Comp Day" last year, in September I believe, had a "Listed" crowd of 28,000. Even though that is technically 12,000 away from a "normal" Sellout, the game was a "Sellout" because of all tickets bought and Season Ticket Holder Comps.

My rep told me that that was the most popular game for the Season Ticket Holder exchange. The reason? Many people believed that that would be right around the time that the Sox would clinch either the division or Wild Card. So, many people made the exchange for that day because they either, 1. Wanted to bring as many friends/family as they could to see the Sox clinch, or 2. Wanted to sell them for mega bucks because it could/would have been the clincher.

LITTLE NELL
08-14-2007, 05:59 AM
Do you remember that game? I ask because it may be the first game I attended as a kid. I couldn't see anything. My nearsightedness hadn't been diagnosed. I have no memories of what the crowd looked like. My father said if this batter swings and misses, the game would be over. All I could see was a blur and some movement of yellow. I don't know if this was in 1963 or 1964. I remember the score of the game was Sox 7, Cubs 2, but the baseball retrosheet doesn't list exhibition games.

The reason I didn't believe the 55,555 figure was inflated was that in those days, visiting teams got a percentage of the announced gate. That's no longer true, of course, but I couldn't imagine why a cheap owner would inflate attendance figures.
It was 1964 and the Sox won 11-1 What was unique was that the Cubs were the "home team" and batted last. Any ball hit into the fans on the right field warning track was a ground rule double. There is a picture of this game in Pictorial History of the White Sox printed in 1980.

itsnotrequired
08-14-2007, 08:05 AM
People often forget the difference between the terms "sellout" and "capacity crowd." "Sellout" means you sold all the tickets created for the event; "capacity crowd" means there are no vacant seats or standing space whatsoever.

A sellout means every ticket available for sale has been sold, not every single seat was sold. Comp tickets are given away by the Sox and are therefore not sold nor do they count against sellout definitions.

It's not uncommon for teams to report different specific attendance numbers for different games but still cite each as sold out. Thinking about it more, it's technically possible the Sox haven't sold out a game in years.

I would argue that the Sox have sold out plenty of times but haven't had a capacity crowd in years. A capacity crowd implies the stadium is filled as high as the fire code allows. In other words, every single person who bought tickets to the game made it to the game. If even one person can't make it (gets sick, car breaks down, etc.), then it is no longer a capacity crowd. I would have to imagine there are several dozen people a game that buy tickets and don't make it into the stadium for whatever reason.

soxfan80
08-14-2007, 10:17 AM
Tickets for employees are comped.
Tickets for the press(who can recieve up to 4 FREE tickets per game) are comped.
Vip tickets are comped.

soxfan80
08-14-2007, 10:22 AM
This is indeed true. A friend of mine was in town last year and wanted to join me and my season ticket partner for a Yankees game, but when he called on the day of the game the only thing they had were SRO tickets for 30 stinkin' dollars :mg:. He told the Sox to get murdered, and frankly I don't blame him.
SRO has lower deck access. I dont see the problem, aside frrm the high price.
Hell, there's people that have tickets for SEATS and they stand in the outfield all damm day.

soxfan80
08-14-2007, 10:24 AM
Whats difficult to believe is that we have never drawn 40,615 (capacity) or over since the downsizing of the upper deck. Based on daily attendance figures we are the only team that this happens to.Is it that big of a deal?
Hell, with the way we're playing right now, we should be glad there's still action at the box office.