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View Full Version : *Official* We Knew They'd Lose It Postgame Thread


thomas35forever
08-07-2007, 10:01 PM
Oh well. Get 'em tomorrow.

QCIASOXFAN
08-07-2007, 10:02 PM
I pronounce this season ovah!

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 10:02 PM
Nice playoff type game. Great job by Danks and the 'pen.

ndgt10
08-07-2007, 10:03 PM
***? Owens can't steal a base against the combo of Borowski and Martinez? Give away a freaking out instead?

oeo
08-07-2007, 10:03 PM
Just a terrible, terrible effort by the offense. If we can win tomorrow against Sabathia, this loss won't hurt as much because I figured we would lose that one anyway. That means Garland actually has to show up and pitch, though, and right now I don't have a lot of confidence in him.

JB98
08-07-2007, 10:03 PM
We haven't had too many ninth-inning comebacks this year. Can't ask for a better chance than the one we were given tonight.

That's why we're a fourth-place club, I guess. Wasted a nice effort by Danks and the bullpen.

kittle42
08-07-2007, 10:03 PM
I pronounce this season ovah!

You could have done that a few months ago.

Lip Man 1
08-07-2007, 10:04 PM
Bad loss tonight because Westbrook was 2-6 with an ERA of five.

Obviously somebody's been beating his brains out when he pitches.

Lip

soltrain21
08-07-2007, 10:04 PM
I thought AJ hit that ball much harder than he actually did. Oh well.


Stone was great.... :dunno:

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 10:05 PM
We haven't had too many ninth-inning comebacks this year. Can't ask for a better chance than the one we were given tonight.

That's why we're a fourth-place club, I guess. Wasted a nice effort by Danks and the bullpen.


Fields did his job...Thome worked a nice count and just missed one, Great AB by PK, and AJ ripped one, but right at a guy. Not a bad job, just not the desired result.

TheOldRoman
08-07-2007, 10:05 PM
Mad props to AJ on the wonderful at bat. After the Sox got a gift error to extend the game, and Konerko drew a walk in a great AB, I just knew AJ would go down on one pitch. Tonight was Walkerball at its finest. Even with as bad as our bullpen has been, we would be right in the thick of things if our offense was even respectable for most of the year.
Danks was really good tonight. It's a shame the offense couldn't hold their own against a ****ty pitcher.

oeo
08-07-2007, 10:05 PM
Stone was great.... :dunno:

Am I the only one that thinks the guy is boring as all hell? I usually like what he has to say, but he's going to put me to sleep. Good thing Hawk was there to keep me up.

HotelWhiteSox
08-07-2007, 10:05 PM
2 ****ing hits?


I have been excited by the Sox lately but didn't have much hope tonight, for
- day off when the team is looking good
- as much as we suck, we really suck at home

But come on...

MCHSoxFan
08-07-2007, 10:06 PM
Well, we may lose the seires. I thought we would win the end games and lose the middle. Now, we lost the first end and will have trouble winning the middle. Oh, does this make me :angry: and :whiner: .

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 10:06 PM
Bad loss tonight because Westbrook was 2-6 with an ERA of five.

Obviously somebody's been beating his brains out when he pitches.

Lip


Danks outing was more impressive, because he was facing a far better offense.

Lip Man 1
08-07-2007, 10:06 PM
JB:

Just FYI, the Sox have had one game this season where they trailed in the 9th inning and won the game, vs. Kansas City on May 10th. Uribe doubled to tie it at 4 in the 9th with two out, then the Sox won it in the 10th.

They have had seven games though where they took the lead in the 8th inning after trailing and won the game.

Lip

QCIASOXFAN
08-07-2007, 10:06 PM
You could have done that a few months ago.
I did until I started drinking the kool-aid around here.

ndgt10
08-07-2007, 10:07 PM
Am I the only one that thinks the guy is boring as all hell? I usually like what he has to say, but he's going to put me to sleep. Good thing Hawk was there to keep me up.
I miss DJ.

DJ > Stone.

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 10:07 PM
:angry:Way to go Ozzie!!!:angry:

Owens on 1B, no one out, down by 1, bottom of the 9th, Borowski on the mound, Martinez behind the plate. Does Owens run? Nope, Fields bunts him over to second. What a waste of a game. Owens has the bag with even anything less than a perfect throw, even if there is a pitch out. Fields can then lay down the bunt to advance Jerry to 3B with one out, which would prompt Wedge to walk Thome, who would then be replaced with a pinch runner, and pitch to Konerko with runners on the corners and one out.

Damn you Ozzie, that was simple as hell. The chances of Owens successfully stealing 2B in that situation had to be much higher than the chances of the Sox getting a basehit there. Ozzie flat out blew this game.

Edit: You love speed so much, Ozzie? Well ****ing use it. Trust your players.

JB98
08-07-2007, 10:07 PM
Fields did his job...Thome worked a nice count and just missed one, Great AB by PK, and AJ ripped one, but right at a guy. Not a bad job, just not the desired result.

AJ did not hit that ball hard.

roadrunner
08-07-2007, 10:07 PM
***? Owens can't steal a base against the combo of Borowski and Martinez? Give away a freaking out instead?

I couldn't agree more. Absolutely thoughtless managing. Martinez looked pathetic on previous steal attempts. Why let him off the god damn hook? I am sick and tired of Ozzie's eagerness to give away outs every ****ing chance he gets.

QCIASOXFAN
08-07-2007, 10:08 PM
JB:

Just FYI, the Sox have had one game this season where they trailed in the 9th inning and won the game, vs. Kansas City on May 10th. Uribe doubled to tie it at 4 in the 9th with two out, then the Sox won it in the 10th.

They have had seven games though where they took the lead in the 8th inning after trailing and won the game.

Lip
The 2007 White Sox, the anti-clutch.

JB98
08-07-2007, 10:08 PM
JB:

Just FYI, the Sox have had one game this season where they trailed in the 9th inning and won the game, vs. Kansas City on May 10th. Uribe doubled to tie it at 4 in the 9th with two out, then the Sox won it in the 10th.

Lip

Yes, I attended that game. I was trying to think of another ninth-inning comeback and couldn't recall one.

I can recall three or four games where we left the tying run in scoring position in the ninth.

oeo
08-07-2007, 10:12 PM
I couldn't agree more. Absolutely thoughtless managing. Martinez looked pathetic on previous steal attempts. Why let him off the god damn hook? I am sick and tired of Ozzie's eagerness to give away outs every ****ing chance he gets.

Yeah, and then when Owens gets thrown out, it's why is he stealing? He could have slipped, the umpire could have made a bad call...anything could have happened there.

The bunt was the right move, IMO. The problem came afterwards...our big boppers did nothing, which is happening quite frequently as of late.

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 10:12 PM
I couldn't agree more. Absolutely thoughtless managing. Martinez looked pathetic on previous steal attempts. Why let him off the god damn hook? I am sick and tired of Ozzie's eagerness to give away outs every ****ing chance he gets.
Giving away an out is fine as long as it is done in the right situation. Ozzie ****ed this one up. If Ozzie has Owens run on one of the first two pitches and Owens does somehow get thrown out, you still have Fields and Thome guaranteed to hit while only down one run. You still have enough power to have a chance at a longball. Instead Ozzie throws away an out in a situation where he doesn't have to. Meanwhile we all get to here how Ozzie is one of the best managers in baseball. Yeah, right. That's baseball 101 and he ****s it up.

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 10:13 PM
Yeah, and then when Owens gets thrown out, it's why is he stealing?

The bunt was the right move, IMO. The problem came afterwards...our big boppers did nothing, which is happening quite frequently as of late.


Amen. And as bad as Martinez is at throwing back there, there are plenty of times he lucks out and makes the perfect throw.

FarWestChicago
08-07-2007, 10:18 PM
Bad loss tonight because Westbrook was 2-6 with an ERA of five.

Obviously somebody's been beating his brains out when he pitches.

LipNot lately. I was watching the Cleveland broadcast and Westbrook has given up one earned run per game for 3 consecutive starts according to their announcers. You should check your facts before ranting, Lip. :wink:

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 10:18 PM
Yeah, and then when Owens gets thrown out, it's why is he stealing? He could have slipped, the umpire could have made a bad call...anything could have happened there.

The bunt was the right move, IMO. The problem came afterwards...our big boppers did nothing, which is happening quite frequently as of late.
Owens is I think 14-17 in SB attempts this year. A good catcher throws out what, 30% or so of attempted basestealers? And Martinez is pretty ****ty at throwing out attempted basestealers, plus you have a guy on the mound who doesn't get the ball to home plate very quickly and throws in the 80's. The most logical decision is to have Owens run, yet Ozzie gives up the out instead. Even if Owens does get thrown out though, which probably doesn't happen unless Jerry trips on his way to 2B, you still have two guys with power in Fields and Thome guaranteed to hit and only down 1 run. Just a bad decision all the way around by such a fantastic manager.

Tragg
08-07-2007, 10:19 PM
Late in a game down ONE run, we use a player with no power as a pinch hitter, sitting a hitter with some power on the bench. Brilliant move.

And BS on giving away 1/3 of our remaining outs in the 9th, especially when the player bunting is one of our better hitters. It wasn't like Cintron or Owens was up there. Fields can hit the ball.

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 10:19 PM
Owens is I think 14-17 in SB attempts this year. A good catcher throws out what, 30% or so of attempted basestealers? And Martinez is pretty ****ty at throwing out attempted basestealers, plus you have a guy on the mound who doesn't get the ball to home plate very quickly and throws in the 80's. The most logical decision is to have Owens run, yet Ozzie gives up the out instead. Even if Owens does get thrown out though, which probably doesn't happen unless Jerry trips on his way to 2B, you still have two guys with power in Fields and Thome guaranteed to hit and only down 1 run. Just a bad decision all the way around by such a fantastic manager.


Ya gotta love that when people want to complain, Owens magically becomes the Flash, and Martinez throws like a girl.

veeter
08-07-2007, 10:22 PM
***? Owens can't steal a base against the combo of Borowski and Martinez? Give away a freaking out instead?I am so ****ing pissed. Owens could have walked to second and probably stole third too. Ozzie took the night off tonight. Talk about cover your ass managing. That was inexcusable. The worst throwing catcher in baseball, *****!!!

JB98
08-07-2007, 10:22 PM
Ya gotta love that when people want to complain, Owens magically becomes the Flash, and Martinez throws like a girl.

I think my sister throws better than Martinez. She was a good player in her day.

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 10:25 PM
Ya gotta love that when people want to complain, Owens magically becomes the Flash, and Martinez throws like a girl.
http://pbsd.cf.huffingtonpost.com/pics/koolaid.jpg
I hope you enjoy the new Ozzie Flavor.

Lip Man 1
08-07-2007, 10:25 PM
Owens coming into this evening had stolen 13 bases and been caught 3 times.

Those are pretty good odds wouldn't you say?

Lip

veeter
08-07-2007, 10:26 PM
Amen. And as bad as Martinez is at throwing back there, there are plenty of times he lucks out and makes the perfect throw.Well, IF he gets thrown out you could totally justify the attempt. NOT trying is totally UNjustifiable!!!!! Anyway no ****ing way he gets thrown out and you know it.

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 10:26 PM
Owens coming into this evening had stolen 13 bases and been caught 3 times.

Those are pretty good odds wouldn't you say?

Lip


Yeah, and if he's thrown out, I'm sure all the posts would be giving Ozzie major props for the aggressiveness.

JB98
08-07-2007, 10:27 PM
Owens coming into this evening had stolen 13 bases and been caught 3 times.

Those are pretty good odds wouldn't you say?

Lip

I believe the three times caught were all pickoffs too, not throws by a catcher. He stole in the first inning tonight, which makes him 14-for-17.

FarWestChicago
08-07-2007, 10:27 PM
Yeah, and if he's thrown out, I'm sure all the posts would be giving Ozzie major props for the aggressiveness.Nobody will admit it, but you have a point. :smile:

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 10:28 PM
Owens coming into this evening had stolen 13 bases and been caught 3 times.

Those are pretty good odds wouldn't you say?

Lip
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:YD5f5zxJ5ZzmjM:http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2005/12/06/TF69XeoI.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2005/12/06/TF69XeoI.jpg&imgrefurl=http://baerwcb.tripod.com/Binder/guillen.html&h=235&w=275&sz=74&hl=en&start=12&tbnid=YD5f5zxJ5ZzmjM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dozzie%2Bguillen%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D1 0%26hl%3Den)
"Dats troo Lip but da guy on da mown wuzza righty and da guy on da bases wuzza lefty so doze odds don work out dat way."

Lip Man 1
08-07-2007, 10:29 PM
Conversly going into tonight Martinez had allowed 48 stolen bases while throwing out 21. (Which is actually higher then I thought but still a pretty solid bet Owens could steal the base.)

Lip

veeter
08-07-2007, 10:30 PM
Yeah, and if he's thrown out, I'm sure all the posts would be giving Ozzie major props for the aggressiveness.How many times has Contreras been vitimized because he's slow to the plate? Teams pick on that stuff. It's been embarrassing at times. You HAD to embarrass Martinex there. C'mon it's a no brainer.

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 10:32 PM
Yeah, and if he's thrown out, I'm sure all the posts would be giving Ozzie major props for the aggressiveness.
I'm sure there would be actually. No one is going to rip Ozzie for having his best base stealer steal, just like no one is going to rip Ozzie for having his best home run hitter swing away instead of bunt.

veeter
08-07-2007, 10:33 PM
I'm sure there would be actually. No one is going to rip Ozzie for having his best base stealer steal, just like no one is going to rip Ozzie for having his best home run hitter swing away instead of bunt.Especially against that rag arm. Ozzie has angered me to Jerry Manuel levels tonight.

Noneck
08-07-2007, 10:34 PM
Owens had to get to 2nd, a steal would have been nice, but getting him over was the key. So we had the 3,4,5 hitters to get him home and it didn't happen. That was the real problem.

kittle42
08-07-2007, 10:34 PM
I'm sure there would be actually. No one is going to rip Ozzie for having his best base stealer steal, just like no one is going to rip Ozzie for having his best home run hitter swing away instead of bunt.

Bull****. People here would compalin about anything and everything.

People, take it easy...the season has been done with for awhile.

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 10:34 PM
I'm sure there would be actually. No one is going to rip Ozzie for having his best base stealer steal, just like no one is going to rip Ozzie for having his best home run hitter swing away instead of bunt.


You're right. People would never take a bad game result, and then pick apart a decision based on 20/20 hindsight. That never happens, kind of like how Owens never gets thrown out, or that Martinez never throws anyone out.

kittle42
08-07-2007, 10:35 PM
Owens had to get to 2nd, a steal would have been nice, but getting him over was the key. So we had the 3,4,5 hitters to get him home and it didn't happen. That was the real problem.

You are correct, sir.

JB98
08-07-2007, 10:35 PM
I'm sure there would be actually. No one is going to rip Ozzie for having his best base stealer steal, just like no one is going to rip Ozzie for having his best home run hitter swing away instead of bunt.

I've seen people complain frequently about Thome not bunting to beat the shift.

oeo
08-07-2007, 10:35 PM
http://pbsd.cf.huffingtonpost.com/pics/koolaid.jpg
I hope you enjoy the new Ozzie Flavor.

What did that post have anything to do with Kool Aid? :?:

Again, the problem was not the bunt. Owens was put in scoring position. All Thome or Konerko (then AJ) need to do is get a single, and it's a tie game. They didn't do that.

There is no guarantee that 1)Owens even steals safely or 2)That even matters because the guys behind him (minus Fields) did not do their job.

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 10:37 PM
Especially against that rag arm. Ozzie has angered me to Jerry Manuel levels tonight.
Totally agree. Most of his blunders have been easy to overlook since the offense was dead, the bullpen was garbage, and we weren't going to win anyway, but this game was the exact type of game that good managers get a reputation for winning. We ran into a good pitcher on a roll and our pitching delivered much more than we could have expected, and we still could have tied the game in the 9th without even working a walk or getting a hit. Good fundamental baseball + ****ty managing = same old ****ty baseball.

veeter
08-07-2007, 10:37 PM
What did that post have anything to do with Kool Aid? :?:

Again, the problem was not the bunt. Owens was put in scoring position. All Thome or Konerko (then AJ) need to do is get a single, and it's a tie game. They didn't do that.

There is no guarantee that 1)Owens even steals safely or 2)That even matters because the guys behind him (minus Fields) did not do their job.Well if Owens stole second, Fields bunts him to third, Thome's fly ball ties the game. They don't even need a hit there.

Lip Man 1
08-07-2007, 10:39 PM
OEO:

Wouldn't it have been a lot easier for one of the big hitters to drive in a guy from 3rd with a sacrifice fly (or a passed ball, error ect...) then to have to come up with a clean hit?

I think that's the point some are making.

Anything could happen but you do have a guy who has successfully stolen 82% of his chances going up against a catcher who has a slow release and has only thrown out 43% of base stealers.

To me it would have been worth the gamble...then have Fields bunt him to 3rd and you've increased your chances to get the tying run home.

Lip

oeo
08-07-2007, 10:40 PM
Well if Owens stole second, Fields bunts him to third, Thome's fly ball ties the game. They don't even need a hit there.

Those are all a bunch of if's. Thome's job was to get a base hit...a blooper would have worked. He didn't do that, what makes you think he would do the job if all he had to do was hit a sac fly? He likely would have struck out, then.

Thome and Konerko just are not very good right now. And it sucks because we should have scored more on Sunday, and we should have scored more today. The meat of our lineup is crap...the top and bottom is what has been carrying us offensively.

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 10:41 PM
You're right. People would never take a bad game result, and then pick apart a decision based on 20/20 hindsight. That never happens, kind of like how Owens never gets thrown out, or that Martinez never throws anyone out.
Oh come on. Do you presume to know everything? I was yelling at the damn TV as soon as I saw Josh put that bunt down, and I'm sure many other Sox fans were doing the same thing. Not every person looks at every decision cluelessly and then decides to comment on it later. Some people actually are baseball fans who watch and play game and actually pay attention to what goes on as it is happening.

Noneck
08-07-2007, 10:41 PM
Well if Owens stole second, Fields bunts him to third, Thome's fly ball ties the game. They don't even need a hit there.


That was a possibility, but if the 3,4,5 hitters can't get a runner in from 2nd you really don't deserve a win.

Lip Man 1
08-07-2007, 10:42 PM
There are what 13 ways in the book (I could be wrong) to get a man home from 3rd base, the number is far less from second.

Lip

oeo
08-07-2007, 10:43 PM
OEO:

Wouldn't it have been a lot easier for one of the big hitters to drive in a guy from 3rd with a sacrifice fly (or a passed ball, error ect...) then to have to come up with a clean hit?

I think that's the point some are making.

Anything could happen but you do have a guy who has successfully stolen 82% of his chances going up against a catcher who has a slow release and has only thrown out 43% of base stealers.

To me it would have been worth the gamble...then have Fields bunt him to 3rd and you've increased your chances to get the tying run home.

Lip

Sure it would have been easier, but the bunt is also the easier decision, and the much safer one.

It was not like we had our 8 or 9 hitters coming up. Thome or Konerko need to get that base hit there. And I still don't think had Thome been in a situation to hit a sac fly, he would not have done that.

We had Borowski where we wanted him. 1 out, a speedster at second with Thome coming up and Konerko on deck. They just didn't do their jobs, which is something that's been happening a lot this year with the whole team. And just a small example of that comes tonight...we're given 5 outs in the 9th and can't even get one to cross home plate. Just awful execution, and it doesn't surprise me at all because I've seen it all year long.

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 10:44 PM
Oh come on. Do you presume to know everything? I was yelling at the damn TV as soon as I saw Josh put that bunt down, and I'm sure many other Sox fans were doing the same thing. Not every person looks at every decision cluelessly and then decides to comment on it later. Some people actually are baseball fans who watch and play game and actually pay attention to what goes on as it is happening.


isn't proclaiming with 100% certainty that owens would have stolen the base "presuming to know everything"?

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 10:45 PM
I've seen people complain frequently about Thome not bunting to beat the shift.
I've seen that too unfortunately, but that's kind of a dumb thing to complain about because 1.) Thome never works on bunting and probably can't direct a bunt to save his life in a game situation and 2.) his slow ass is probably only halfway to 1B by the time the 3B playing SS comes in and picks the ball up.

spiffie
08-07-2007, 10:48 PM
Sure it would have been easier, but the bunt is also the easier decision, and the much safer one.

It was not like we had our 8 or 9 hitters coming up. Thome or Konerko need to get that base hit there. And I still don't think had Thome been in a situation to hit a sac fly, he would not have done that.

We had Borowski where we wanted him. 1 out, a speedster at second with Thome coming up and Konerko on deck. They just didn't do their jobs, which is something that's been happening a lot this year with the whole team.
Indeed. That would be as crazy as sending Pablo Ozuna in the 9th inning of a tied ALCS game with Joe Crede at the plate.

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 10:49 PM
Indeed. That would be as crazy as sending Pablo Ozuna in the 9th inning of a tied ALCS game with Joe Crede at the plate.


Huge difference in a tie game and being down a run. Gigantic difference.

oeo
08-07-2007, 10:50 PM
Indeed. That would be as crazy as sending Pablo Ozuna in the 9th inning of a tied ALCS game with Joe Crede at the plate.

The difference being a tie game, and being down by one (not to mention two outs compared to none). It's not the same situation at all.

Noneck
08-07-2007, 10:51 PM
I've seen that too unfortunately, but that's kind of a dumb thing to complain about because 1.) Thome never works on bunting and probably can't direct a bunt to save his life in a game situation and 2.) his slow ass is probably only halfway to 1B by the time the 3B playing SS comes in and picks the ball up.

He better learn bunting and slapping the ball to left vs. lefties or he's going to be a platoon DH. His stats the last 2 years vs. lefties are horrific.

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 10:52 PM
isn't proclaiming with 100% certainty that owens would have stolen the base "presuming to know everything"?
When did I say it was 100% going to work? I said the odds are better. You have a guy on the mound who opposing hitter were hitting IIRC .280-something against (under 30%) and a much greater than 30% chance Owens successfully steals 2B.

Here's one tip about making an argument: state your case and back it up. You've offered nothing other than the typical "Ozzie can do no wrong" stuff that people always say when he ****s up. If you think Owens running wasn't a better alternative, say why instead of just putting words in other people's mouths, or on other people's computer screens, whatever.

itsnotrequired
08-07-2007, 10:52 PM
Going to a game with Chips is a sure-fire way to lose.

Sig update time...

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 10:54 PM
When did I say it was 100% going to work? I said the odds are better. You have a guy on the mound who opposing hitter were hitting IIRC .280-something against (under 30%) and a much greater than 30% chance Owens successfully steals 2B.

Here's one tip about making an argument: state your case and back it up. You've offered nothing other than the typical "Ozzie can do no wrong" stuff that people always say when he ****s up. If you think Owens running wasn't a better alternative, say why instead of just putting words in other people's mouths, or on other people's computer screens, whatever.


The story of the 9th inning isn't Owens stealing or not stealing. It's our "run producers" not getting the job done. Period.

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 10:57 PM
The story of the 9th inning isn't Owens stealing or not stealing. It's our "run producers" not getting the job done. Period.
:rolleyes:
:thud:

spiffie
08-07-2007, 11:11 PM
The story of the 9th inning isn't Owens stealing or not stealing. It's our "run producers" not getting the job done. Period.
Jim Thome and Paul Konerko get hits about 27% of the time they come to the plate.

So far this year Jerry Owens has stolen a base 100% of the time that he has attempted it. Victor Martinez has thrown out about 30% of the base runners who have tried to steal on him this year.

Which one is the better bet?

Tragg
08-07-2007, 11:13 PM
Huge difference in a tie game and being down a run. Gigantic difference.
Tie game is also a better time to bunt.
Instead, Ozzie imitated Phil Garner's 9th inning and gave away 1/3 of his outs, which played right into the Tribe's hands. (and the Sox' hands in 2005).

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 11:13 PM
Jim Thome and Paul Konerko get hits about 27% of the time they come to the plate.

So far this year Jerry Owens has stolen a base 100% of the time that he has attempted it. Victor Martinez has thrown out about 30% of the base runners who have tried to steal on him this year.

Which one is the better bet?


Unless you're expecting Owens to steal 2nd, 3rd, and home, you're counting on your hitters anyway.

oeo
08-07-2007, 11:15 PM
:rolleyes:
:thud:

Don't be so ignorant, UNB. That was the problem.

spiffie
08-07-2007, 11:16 PM
Unless you're expecting Owens to steal 2nd, 3rd, and home, you're counting on your hitters anyway.
You're counting on Fields to get the bunt down and move Owens to third.

Then you're counting on Thome to get the bat on the ball. Admittedly he strikes out a good amount, but he does still get the bat on the ball most of the time. With the speed of Owens damn near any contact gets him home. I'd rather be banking on the 80% chance of Thome making contact than the 27% chance of him getting a hit.

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 11:18 PM
You're counting on Fields to get the bunt down and move Owens to third.

Then you're counting on Thome to get the bat on the ball. Admittedly he strikes out a good amount, but he does still get the bat on the ball most of the time. With the speed of Owens damn near any contact gets him home. I'd rather be banking on the 80% chance of Thome making contact than the 27% chance of him getting a hit.

I've watched a lot of sox games this year, and I bet you have too. Don't underestimate the ability of the 2007 Sox to strand runners at third with one out.

oeo
08-07-2007, 11:19 PM
I can't believe people are arguing this. Any smart manager tells Fields to lay the bunt down. Period. I can't believe this many people think they're smarter than the professionals. And I'm done arguing it too, because you cannot convince anyone around here. Everything Ozzie does is wrong...I get it. Look around the league and show me a manager that tells Owens to steal...it's just too much of a risk when you're behind in the game. You have no outs, a man on first and the meat of your lineup coming up; sounds like a no brainer to me.

Patrick134
08-07-2007, 11:22 PM
I can't believe people are arguing this. Any smart manager tells Fields to lay the bunt down. Period. I can't believe this many people think they're smarter than the professionals. And I'm done arguing it too, because you cannot convince anyone around here. Everything Ozzie does is wrong...I get it. Look around the league and show me a manager that tells Owens to steal...it's just too much of a risk when you're behind in the game. You have no outs, a man on first and the meat of your lineup coming up; sounds like a no brainer to me.


Post of the year material there. Amen.

spiffie
08-07-2007, 11:22 PM
I've watched a lot of sox games this year, and I bet you have too. Don't underestimate the ability of the 2007 Sox to strand runners at third with one out.
True. But I like the odds better of getting a guy home from third w/1 out than from second w/1 out.

spiffie
08-07-2007, 11:25 PM
I can't believe people are arguing this. Any smart manager tells Fields to lay the bunt down. Period. I can't believe this many people think they're smarter than the professionals. And I'm done arguing it too, because you cannot convince anyone around here. Everything Ozzie does is wrong...I get it. Look around the league and show me a manager that tells Owens to steal...it's just too much of a risk when you're behind in the game. You have no outs, a man on first and the meat of your lineup coming up; sounds like a no brainer to me.

Post of the year material there. Amen.
This thread reminds me of one of the favored lines of the late great Gorilla Monsoon. "One lies and the other swears to it."

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 11:27 PM
This thread reminds me of one of the favored lines of the late great Gorilla Monsoon. "One lies and the other swears to it."
Major props for bringing Gorilla Monsoon into the thread. Not to hijack, but I read a Bobby Heenan interview recently and it turns out he's a Chicago guy. I never knew that. Anyway, back to the threadcave.

oeo
08-07-2007, 11:32 PM
Here's one tip about making an argument: state your case and back it up. You've offered nothing other than the typical "Ozzie can do no wrong" stuff that people always say when he ****s up. If you think Owens running wasn't a better alternative, say why instead of just putting words in other people's mouths, or on other people's computer screens, whatever.

I just saw this post and had to respond. The funny part about it is you have nothing to back your opinion up. You're using the "Ozzie does everything wrong" stuff that people always say, every God damn day. It was the right decision, and you've done nothing to prove that it was not.

Oh come on. Do you presume to know everything? I was yelling at the damn TV as soon as I saw Josh put that bunt down, and I'm sure many other Sox fans were doing the same thing. Not every person looks at every decision cluelessly and then decides to comment on it later. Some people actually are baseball fans who watch and play game and actually pay attention to what goes on as it is happening.

This is exactly what you're doing right now. Go through the situation in your head again...he made the right choice, you just think you know better.

I watch and pay attention, like you claim you do, and this was the right move. Again, you don't take that risk when you're behind. If it's tied or you have the lead, then he should be going...not when you need a run, though. Especially when you have your big boys coming up to bat.

SluggersAway
08-07-2007, 11:56 PM
You're right. People would never take a bad game result, and then pick apart a decision based on 20/20 hindsight. That never happens, kind of like how Owens never gets thrown out, or that Martinez never throws anyone out.

And, you would not be on here defending whatever decision Ozzie made.

No never.

See, it works both ways.

UserNameBlank
08-07-2007, 11:57 PM
I just saw this post and had to respond. The funny part about it is you have nothing to back your opinion up. You're using the "Ozzie does everything wrong" stuff that people always say, every God damn day. It was the right decision, and you've done nothing to prove that it was not.

I see below that you've read parts of some of my posts in this thread, or at least looked over them. You must have seen where I had stated my point, over and over, which was that the odds favored Owens stealing 2B, then bunting Owens to 3B with one out, and then taking a shot at driving in the tying run without having to get a hit. I already backed up my reasons which had to do with Owen's success atstealing and Martinez's failure at throwing out baserunners.

This is exactly what you're doing right now. Go through the situation in your head again...he made the right choice, you just think you know better.

I watch and pay attention, like you claim you do, and this was the right move. Again, you don't take that risk when you're behind. If it's tied or you have the lead, then he should be going...not when you need a run, though. Especially when you have your big boys coming up to bat.

This doesn't make sense. If you are playing for the tie with a chance to win, you can give up the out. Instead of definitely giving up the out to get the guy to second, you can have the guy steal second and give up the out to advance him to third, which increases the likelyhood of scoring as a basehit isn't necessary.

If you are playing just to win, not to tie, you don't give up the out at all, especially with Owens on base and Fields at the plate. Even in a double play situation you have enough speed on the basepaths to turn the play into a force unless the ball hit is a rocket right at someone.

Bunting a runner to second who is more than capable of successfully stealing second is just giving up an out, especially when the guy at the plate has as much power as Fields does. If Owens runs, as I've already mentioned several times, and he is thrown out, you still end up with one out but some powerful 2-3-4 hitters coming up in a one-run game, with Fields and Thome guaranteed to hit.

The only benefits to bunting Owens over from 1B to 2B are:
1. Staying out of the DP; and
2. Ensuring that Owens scores on most singles

But you have 2 high-K guys coming up next with XB power. There is a good chance they don't even make contact, and even if they do, there is also a good chance that it is an XBH that Owens would normally be able to score from 1B on considering the arms in the OF at the time. If the Sox had say Erstad or Pods or some other singles hitters coming up it would have been different, but I still don't know why you'd bunt over Owens when he already stole 2B with ease earlier in the game off of a pitcher who is quicker to the plate than Borowski.

kobo
08-08-2007, 12:03 AM
I watch and pay attention, like you claim you do, and this was the right move. Again, you don't take that risk when you're behind. If it's tied or you have the lead, then he should be going...not when you need a run, though. Especially when you have your big boys coming up to bat.
And have those big boys been reliable this year? No. They have not. Looking at it from the perspective of how this team has performed this year, I think Ozzie did make a bad choice. Owens stole a base earlier in the game against Martinez, why not have him steal 2nd in that situation? He's the best base stealer on the team right now, if you are going to sacrifice an out to then rely on your "big boys" then why not have Owens try to steal 2nd? If he gets caught, then you have Fields, Thome, and Konerko, the "big boys", to try and get the job done. And if Owens does steal the base then you have Fields lay down the bunt and get Owens to 3rd and then you take the chance with Thome and Konerko. We should be happy that Fields can actually lay a bunt down.

Some of you see it one way, some of us see it another way. There is no right or wrong in this situation unfortunately since the Sox lost the damn game anyway. Instead of fuming about the 9th we should be fuming about innings 1-8 where the offense could only manage 2 ****ing hits. Another solid outing by the starting pitching and bullpen that was wasted by the anemic offense.

WhiteSox5187
08-08-2007, 12:14 AM
A good team would have won tonight's game, and that being said, we're not a good team. I was drinking the Kool Aid for a bit tonight and I honestly thought that for whatever reason, we had a shot at the playoffs (or at least making a run at 'em) if and only if we swept Cleveland. We had to sweep. Now we won't, and I don't like our chances tommorrow, the season is now effectively over. Too bad.

chisoxmike
08-08-2007, 12:18 AM
...the season is now effectively over. Too bad.

It's been over for over a month now.

NardiWasHere
08-08-2007, 12:30 AM
Am I the only one that thinks the guy is boring as all hell? I usually like what he has to say, but he's going to put me to sleep. Good thing Hawk was there to keep me up.

I miss DJ.

DJ > Stone.


:angry::o::rolleyes::?::o::rolleyes::?::o::angry:

oeo
08-08-2007, 12:31 AM
:angry::o::rolleyes::?::o::rolleyes::?::o::angry:

I never said anything about DJ. I like what Stone brings to the table because he does his research and knows what the hell he's talking about, but he's about as boring as Joe Buck.

ilsox7
08-08-2007, 12:33 AM
I never said anything about DJ. I like what Stone brings to the table because he does his research and knows what the hell he's talking about, but he's about as boring as Joe Buck.

But his job is to analyze, not call the game. Joe Buck is a disaster b/c he is supposed to be calling the play-by-play, but is boring as all hell. Steve Ston, boring or not, knows the game and makes great points. Leave the emotion for the PBP guy, IMO.

Meanwhile, DJ is neither exciting nor knowledgeable.

oeo
08-08-2007, 12:39 AM
This doesn't make sense. If you are playing for the tie with a chance to win, you can give up the out. Instead of definitely giving up the out to get the guy to second, you can have the guy steal second and give up the out to advance him to third, which increases the likelyhood of scoring as a basehit isn't necessary.

There is no guarantee that he reaches second safely on the steal. It's a huge risk. I'd rather take the safer route with a man on second with one out, than take the chance of having no one on with 1 out. That kills the entire inning. You're basing your decision off of Owens definitely stealing successfully, but there is no guarantee of that.

If you are playing just to win, not to tie, you don't give up the out at all, especially with Owens on base and Fields at the plate. Even in a double play situation you have enough speed on the basepaths to turn the play into a force unless the ball hit is a rocket right at someone.See, but you are playing to tie in that 9th. You worry about winning the game after you've actually tied it. You have three outs (or in our case tonight, 5) to get the tying run in. Then you worry about winning the game...you're getting ahead of yourself.

Bunting a runner to second who is more than capable of successfully stealing second is just giving up an out, especially when the guy at the plate has as much power as Fields does. If Owens runs, as I've already mentioned several times, and he is thrown out, you still end up with one out but some powerful 2-3-4 hitters coming up in a one-run game, with Fields and Thome guaranteed to hit.It's a productive out...you're not just giving it up. OTOH, if Owens does not steal successfully, you're giving away one of the very few outs we have, and it kills the inning.

The only benefits to bunting Owens over from 1B to 2B are:
1. Staying out of the DP; and
2. Ensuring that Owens scores on most singlesThese are not 'the only benefits.' It gives you the much safer way to the tie. Again, no guarantees that he steals successfully...if he's caught, the game is over right there.

But you have 2 high-K guys coming up next with XB power. There is a good chance they don't even make contact, and even if they do, there is also a good chance that it is an XBH that Owens would normally be able to score from 1B on considering the arms in the OF at the time. If the Sox had say Erstad or Pods or some other singles hitters coming up it would have been different, but I still don't know why you'd bunt over Owens when he already stole 2B with ease earlier in the game off of a pitcher who is quicker to the plate than Borowski.If we had Erstad or Pods up (two weak hitters), it would be different? Thome and Konerko are supposed to be our run producers, not Erstad and Pods. If we had Erstad and Pods coming up, I would lean more towards stealing the base, but I still wouldn't take the chance.

There are so many things that could go wrong when stealing that base. Sure, he stole one earlier, but that's no guarantee he could steal one again. Too much of a risk...one you don't take when you're trying to overcome a deficit.

HotelWhiteSox
08-08-2007, 01:34 AM
I just saw this post and had to respond. The funny part about it is you have nothing to back your opinion up. You're using the "Ozzie does everything wrong" stuff that people always say, every God damn day. It was the right decision, and you've done nothing to prove that it was not.

Leave God out of it. This is baseball, it's hard to say that there is a 100% right or wrong position. Your last reply says there is no guarantee Owens reaches second safely. There is also no guarantee Fields gets a bunt down, or doesn't pop it up, etc. Owens is fast, Martinez is a bad catcher, Owens stold on him in the first while Westbrook has a quick move, it also led to a run. I don't think it's wrong to want to try that approach again.


Either way, the bigger issue is 2 hits off Westbrook, you feel bad for Danks, but you deserve to lose after that, esp after all the chances Cleveland tried to hand us.

Sockinchisox
08-08-2007, 01:41 AM
Leave God out of it. This is baseball, it's hard to say that there is a 100% right or wrong position. Your last reply says there is no guarantee Owens reaches second safely. There is also no guarantee Fields gets a bunt down, or doesn't pop it up, etc. Owens is fast, Martinez is a bad catcher, Owens stold on him in the first while Westbrook has a quick move, it also led to a run. I don't think it's wrong to want to try that approach again.


Either way, the bigger issue is 2 hits off Westbrook, you feel bad for Danks, but you deserve to lose after that, esp after all the chances Cleveland tried to hand us.

Owens has also never been thrown out at 2nd.

oeo
08-08-2007, 03:11 AM
Leave God out of it. This is baseball, it's hard to say that there is a 100% right or wrong position. Your last reply says there is no guarantee Owens reaches second safely. There is also no guarantee Fields gets a bunt down, or doesn't pop it up, etc. Owens is fast, Martinez is a bad catcher, Owens stold on him in the first while Westbrook has a quick move, it also led to a run. I don't think it's wrong to want to try that approach again.

You're right, no answer is 100% correct. At the same time, when you're trying to overcome a deficit, you take the safer route, IMO. You hope your guys can drive in a RISP. I never said Ozzie was 100% correct, but you'd think by some of the other posters here, he was 100% incorrect. I've said many times already that it's the safer move (and the move most managers would make), and still puts us in a good position.

Anyways, the situation is different, even if Fields does not get the job done. There's the small possibility that he bunts into a double play, but IMO that's smaller than the chance of Owens being caught stealing. So, let's go through both situations. Owens gets caught stealing, we have one out and nobody on. OTOH, Fields pops up a bunt, or does not advance Owens (difficult to do with the speed of Owens), we still have a man on with one out. You risk the entire inning sending Owens on his way. If he does it successfully, of course we're in a better spot, but what manager wants to take that chance?

This is just another example of people thinking Ozzie is a dumbass, and a bad manager. Let's say the Mets are in this situation. Jose Reyes on first, no outs, does Willie Randolph send him? Probably the best base stealer in the game right now, and I don't think he sends him. It's just too risky.

Grzegorz
08-08-2007, 04:49 AM
Bad loss tonight because Westbrook was 2-6 with an ERA of five.

Lip

He pitched well his outing previous to this one and he has a good track record. This is just an example where the record of a above average pitcher means nothing; you beat the man based on his game day performance not on his past performances.

Grzegorz
08-08-2007, 04:54 AM
Yeah, and if he's thrown out, I'm sure all the posts would be giving Ozzie major props for the aggressiveness.

Ozzie can't win for losing in that situation. Having Fields put down the sacrifice looks to be a bad move to some. To me, the sacrifice is key; Fields builds confidence in his bunting. He improves his skill set. These things build better ball players and better ball players are winners.

The White Sox lost a tough game. Get over it and go get CC tomorrow. It will be hot and humid; not the best of conditions for CC.

Frater Perdurabo
08-08-2007, 06:41 AM
People who say Ozzie made a bad decision are NOT saying that he's a bad manager. Good managers sometimes make bad decisions. (Bad managers sometimes make good decisions, too.)

I think Ozzie is a good manager who has some weaknesses and who made a bad decision not to have Owens attempt to steal.

I listened to the ninth inning on XM, so I had no idea what the percentages were. But at the time I thought Owens should try to steal, because it's the more "aggressive" and "gutsy" move. Given the percentages, sending Owens also was the "higher percentage" move.

But losing was a team effort: bad hitting throughout the game, bad execution in the ninth inning and a poor managerial decision. It's hard to win a game when all three of those occur.

DrewSox56
08-08-2007, 06:44 AM
All things remaining the same, the game would've been tied with a successful bunt after an Owens 2B steal.

He made it to 3rd with ease on Thome's fly to center; there's no question he'd have made it home to tie were he on 3rd.

Just saying.

TomBradley72
08-08-2007, 08:19 AM
***? Owens can't steal a base against the combo of Borowski and Martinez? Give away a freaking out instead?

Should have sent Owens to steal second...then bunted him to 3rd...Thome's fly out would have scored the tying run.

When's the last time Thome really came through in the clutch?

Law11
08-08-2007, 08:25 AM
You got the same feeling from Hawk and Stone. They were talking about how it wasnt going to take Owens long to see Borowski had no move to 1st. In my mind implying he would be off to the races. They were real quiet right as the bunt was in play, but made no comment on why not let him steal.

The bunt to move him to 2nd was a wasted out in my mind.

HawkDJ
08-08-2007, 09:03 AM
All things remaining the same, the game would've been tied with a successful bunt after an Owens 2B steal.

He made it to 3rd with ease on Thome's fly to center; there's no question he'd have made it home to tie were he on 3rd.

Just saying.

Change one thing, change everything. It's impossible to assume that Borowski would've thrown the same pitches or even if he did that Thome would've had the same result.

SBSoxFan
08-08-2007, 09:18 AM
How come no one's advocating the hit and run in that situation? :D: A straight sac may have been my third choice. The same situation (Owens on first, steals second) in the first inning led to a run. Why can't you try it again in the ninth? Perhaps the Sox figured Cleveland would pitch out. Anyhow, the game is easy from here so I have no huge argument with getting a runner in scoring position for the heart of your lineup.

Here's one reason I don't like a lefty batting third. You automatically eliminate the possibility of stealing third.

Finally, it's very frustrating that Sizemore had a seeing-eye single to drive in their runs while Westbrook managed to knock down Richar's shot in the bottom of the inning that would have tied the game. :angry:

The Sox really can't afford to lose this series.

Jerko
08-08-2007, 09:39 AM
I hate playing for the tie. As for the bunt, I've seen us bunt in worse situations (Paulie being the lead runner, Cintron on deck, etc). However, hoping for a hit on a night when you had 2 measly hits isn't very smart either. I think I side with the "he should have tried to steal and then bunt him to 3rd" camp on this one.

soxinem1
08-08-2007, 09:47 AM
I'm not so upset about losing to Westbrook. Though he is not upper-tier, he is a bonified MLB pitcher.

I rarely do the arm chair manager bit, and it's always easy to second guess after the fact, but everyone in the park, CLE included, must have figured that Owens would and should be sent in that inning.

Martinez would have difficulty throwing out AJ, Thome, and Paulie right now.

And if by some miracle Owens would have been tossed out, hey, you gamble and you lose. If Owens is part of this team's future, you have to see how he handles the pressure in late innings of games, and build his skill and confidence in such situations.

And.......

Ozzie was not afraid to send Pods in that situation back in 2005. Additionally, Borowski gets rid of the ball very slow, and Martinez throwing the past few years, including yesterday's game, is jokingly pee-wee league. Talk about a DH/1B waiting to happen.....

If Ozzie wants to have the speed, then use it.

Were we the only ones who saw this? Plus you have your best baserunner on 1B with a gift?

Geez, they had two hits the whole game, send him!

Tragg
08-08-2007, 10:08 AM
It's a productive out...you're not just giving it up. OTOH, if Owens does not steal successfully, you're giving away one of the very few outs we have, and it kills the inning.

It really isn't productive. You've had TWO hits all night. You're giving away 1/3 of your outs with 3 of your best hitters up. Further, any of those hitter could drive Owens in from 1st with a hit, if you didn't want to chance the steal. Or you could chance the steal and tie that baby up without a hit. (certainly risks involved). Owens' sole value really is his speed. For goodness sakes, use it. Bunting in that situation is a lazy, BS call; it's something Ozzie did NOT do in 2005....must have learned it from Garner.

jabrch
08-08-2007, 10:14 AM
It's a productive out...you're not just giving it up.

You will never make any headway with this arguement. The Good Book says that sacrificing is "giving up outs" and that "giving up outs" is bad.

I think that's another case of people understanding their spreadsheets so well that they aren't understanding what happens between the chalk.

spiffie
08-08-2007, 10:23 AM
You will never make any headway with this arguement. The Good Book says that sacrificing is "giving up outs" and that "giving up outs" is bad.

I think that's another case of people understanding their spreadsheets so well that they aren't understanding what happens between the chalk.
No one here is against the sacrifice. But why not give Owens the chance to get 2nd, so that the sacrifice moves him over to 3rd base, where he can be scored without a hit?

And really, this is bull****. Had Ozzie sent Owens, if someone had complained about the risk involved the response would have been the exact same attempt to turn the complaint into some sort of propellerhead rant, because they don't understand the value of stolen bases and of taking risks and knowing what's going on inside the lines. This argument has absolutely nothing to do with sabermetrics or any of that bull****. This is all about watching the game. Your team has 2 hits all night. You have the fastest man on your team on 1st, a pitcher with no pickoff move, and a catcher with a pop gun for an arm. That has nothing to do with stats, that's playing the game and playing the players on the field.

CLR01
08-08-2007, 10:31 AM
No one here is against the sacrifice. But why not give Owens the chance to get 2nd, so that the sacrifice moves him over to 3rd base, where he can be scored without a hit?

And really, this is bull****. Had Ozzie sent Owens, if someone had complained about the risk involved the response would have been the exact same attempt to turn the complaint into some sort of propellerhead rant, because they don't understand the value of stolen bases and of taking risks and knowing what's going on inside the lines. This argument has absolutely nothing to do with sabermetrics or any of that bull****. This is all about watching the game. Your team has 2 hits all night. You have the fastest man on your team on 1st, a pitcher with no pickoff move, and a catcher with a pop gun for an arm. That has nothing to do with stats, that's playing the game and playing the players on the field.

Don't question the Oz, just smile and say thank you. Obey, you bad fan.

palehozenychicty
08-08-2007, 10:42 AM
People who say Ozzie made a bad decision are NOT saying that he's a bad manager. Good managers sometimes make bad decisions. (Bad managers sometimes make good decisions, too.)

I think Ozzie is a good manager who has some weaknesses and who made a bad decision not to have Owens attempt to steal.

I listened to the ninth inning on XM, so I had no idea what the percentages were. But at the time I thought Owens should try to steal, because it's the more "aggressive" and "gutsy" move. Given the percentages, sending Owens also was the "higher percentage" move.

But losing was a team effort: bad hitting throughout the game, bad execution in the ninth inning and a poor managerial decision. It's hard to win a game when all three of those occur.

Indeed. I thought that the meat of the order was at fault. AJ has to take a minimum of a strike in that situation. Everyone knows Borowski has control issues, so make him beat you. There's no way that game should not have been tied. :angry:

kitekrazy
08-08-2007, 10:45 AM
Nice playoff type game. Great job by Danks and the 'pen.

I wonder what Danks record would be on one of the better teams in the league.

kitekrazy
08-08-2007, 10:47 AM
We haven't had too many ninth-inning comebacks this year. Can't ask for a better chance than the one we were given tonight.

That's why we're a fourth-place club, I guess. Wasted a nice effort by Danks and the bullpen.

Plus the Sox can never put together a real win streak. That's been missing all season.

upperdeckusc
08-08-2007, 11:38 AM
Fields did his job...Thome worked a nice count and just missed one, Great AB by PK, and AJ ripped one, but right at a guy. Not a bad job, just not the desired result.

it was off his hands, and barely got to the second basemen.

upperdeckusc
08-08-2007, 11:39 AM
Am I the only one that thinks the guy is boring as all hell? I usually like what he has to say, but he's going to put me to sleep. Good thing Hawk was there to keep me up.

is that possible?? :?:

upperdeckusc
08-08-2007, 11:40 AM
I miss DJ.

DJ > Stone.

:puking:

upperdeckusc
08-08-2007, 11:41 AM
:angry:Way to go Ozzie!!!:angry:

Owens on 1B, no one out, down by 1, bottom of the 9th, Borowski on the mound, Martinez behind the plate. Does Owens run? Nope, Fields bunts him over to second. What a waste of a game. Owens has the bag with even anything less than a perfect throw, even if there is a pitch out. Fields can then lay down the bunt to advance Jerry to 3B with one out, which would prompt Wedge to walk Thome, who would then be replaced with a pinch runner, and pitch to Konerko with runners on the corners and one out.

Damn you Ozzie, that was simple as hell. The chances of Owens successfully stealing 2B in that situation had to be much higher than the chances of the Sox getting a basehit there. Ozzie flat out blew this game.

Edit: You love speed so much, Ozzie? Well ****ing use it. Trust your players.

well put. my thoughts exactly

upperdeckusc
08-08-2007, 11:43 AM
Amen. And as bad as Martinez is at throwing back there, there are plenty of times he lucks out and makes the perfect throw.

i may be wrong but i dont think owens has been thrown out trying to steal this yr? i think all of his caught stealings were pickoffs......
no chance in hell martinez throws him out, unless owens pulls a soriano on his way to 2nd

upperdeckusc
08-08-2007, 11:49 AM
That was a possibility, but if the 3,4,5 hitters can't get a runner in from 2nd you really don't deserve a win.

the 3 hitter drove it deep to RF, and the 4 hitter got walked. it's not like they all struck out looking

upperdeckusc
08-08-2007, 11:50 AM
Sure it would have been easier, but the bunt is also the easier decision, and the much safer one.

It was not like we had our 8 or 9 hitters coming up. Thome or Konerko need to get that base hit there. And I still don't think had Thome been in a situation to hit a sac fly, he would not have done that.

We had Borowski where we wanted him. 1 out, a speedster at second with Thome coming up and Konerko on deck. They just didn't do their jobs, which is something that's been happening a lot this year with the whole team. And just a small example of that comes tonight...we're given 5 outs in the 9th and can't even get one to cross home plate. Just awful execution, and it doesn't surprise me at all because I've seen it all year long.

we ARE talking about the white sox, right? :?:

roadrunner
08-08-2007, 02:15 PM
the 3 hitter drove it deep to RF, and the 4 hitter got walked. it's not like they all struck out looking

I was not impressed with either at bat - thome or konerko. Thome went up there trying to hit it 500 feet as usual. Konerko got some good pitches to hit and popped them foul. I don't give him that much credit for the walk because he should have been out on that misplayed foul pop out and had plenty of hacks at decent pitches. I didn't like Ozzie's bunt attempt but both subsequent at bats were pretty lame.

I am sick of thome. He has not done a damn thing since the first half of last year. I could care less about how great of a guy he seems to be.

Justagirl
08-08-2007, 03:16 PM
Good thing Hawk was there to keep me up.




:hawk
"I wonder if he realized how many tight sphincters there would be in the bottom of the 9th."