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SluggersAway
08-06-2007, 03:58 PM
Barry Bonds' Home Run Record Tainted by Mechanical Device (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003621797)

munchman33
08-06-2007, 06:04 PM
Barry Bonds' Home Run Record Tainted by Mechanical Device (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003621797)

http://www.24-7simpsons.com/kent_brockman.jpg

Barry Bonds has issued the following statement: "This, I don't need"

SluggersAway
08-06-2007, 06:46 PM
"Beyond his alleged steroid use, Barry Bonds is guilty of the use of something that confers extraordinarily unfair mechanical advantage: the “armor” that he wears on his right elbow. Amid the press frenzy over Bonds’ unnatural bulk, the true role of the object on his right arm has simply gone unnoticed.

"This is unfortunate, because by my estimate, Bonds’ front arm “armor” may have contributed no fewer than 75 to 100 home runs to his already steroid-questionable total.

The author makes seven pretty convincing points.

itsnotrequired
08-06-2007, 07:46 PM
"Beyond his alleged steroid use, Barry Bonds is guilty of the use of something that confers extraordinarily unfair mechanical advantage: the “armor” that he wears on his right elbow. Amid the press frenzy over Bonds’ unnatural bulk, the true role of the object on his right arm has simply gone unnoticed.

"This is unfortunate, because by my estimate, Bonds’ front arm “armor” may have contributed no fewer than 75 to 100 home runs to his already steroid-questionable total.

The author makes seven pretty convincing points.

May have contributed additional home runs? That could be true but where is this "75 to 100" number coming from? Methinks out of the air...

eastchicagosoxfan
08-06-2007, 08:23 PM
Another eason why the game needs more Don Drysdale's. Instead of wasting three pitches walking the jackass, pluck him with one good, hard fastball. It amazes me more pitchers haven't hit him.

itsnotrequired
08-06-2007, 09:39 PM
Another eason why the game needs more Don Drysdale's. Instead of wasting three pitches walking the jackass, pluck him with one good, hard fastball. It amazes me more pitchers haven't hit him.

They don't hit him (or many other players) because they will get tossed. If a guy can get tossed without warning for hitting someone with a 71 mph knuckle ball, how do you think fastball plunks would work? The days of "taking care of it on the field" are gone (for now anyway).

eastchicagosoxfan
08-06-2007, 09:42 PM
They don't hit him (or many other players) because they will get tossed. If a guy can get tossed without warning for hitting someone with a 71 mph knuckle ball, how do you think fastball plunks would work? The days of "taking care of it on the field" are gone (for now anyway).
Good point. I wonder if Selig sees the error in his ways, by not allowing stuff to get taken care of on the field.

rdivaldi
08-06-2007, 10:02 PM
May have contributed additional home runs? That could be true but where is this "75 to 100" number coming from? Methinks out of the air...

I also thought the 75 to 100 number quote was ludicrous. If this were the case, wouldn't every player wear body armor?

That was a pretty crappy article.

SluggersAway
08-06-2007, 10:33 PM
Bonds enjoys a grandfather clause:

"Despite the crackdown on baseball body armor, baseball's director of field operations told the Contra Costa Times on Saturday that Giants left fielder Barry Bonds (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=3918) can continue to wear the hard plastic elbow pad on his right arm.


Baseball is cracking down on so-called body armor, but Bob Watson said Bonds is exempt because of a...medical exemption."

I was just amazed at the technology involved and the benefits it confers to the hitter if the writer is to be taken at face value as he seems to be quite knowledgeable on the subject.

mwc44
08-06-2007, 10:33 PM
...If this were the case, wouldn't every player wear body armor?

That was a pretty crappy article.

At the moment, Bonds' apparatus enjoys "grandfathered" status. Similar devices are presently denied to average major leaguers, who must present evidence of injury before receiving an exemption.

The elbow guard is now an illegal piece of equipment unless previous approval is granted by MLB, or, as with Bonds (and Frank Thomas), the player wore it prior to the rule change.

rdivaldi
08-06-2007, 10:42 PM
At the moment, Bonds' apparatus enjoys "grandfathered" status. Similar devices are presently denied to average major leaguers, who must present evidence of injury before receiving an exemption.

:redface:

Reading is a skill, obviously I lack it...

SluggersAway
08-06-2007, 10:43 PM
For those naysayers please refute the advantage given in the seven points:

1) Ability to lean over the plate.

2) The apparatus is hinged at the elbow. It is a literal "hitting machine" that allows Bonds to release his front arm on the same plane during every swing. It largely accounts for the seemingly magical consistency of every Bonds stroke.

3) The apparatus locks at the elbow when the lead arm is fully elongated because of a small flap at the top of the bottom section that fits into a groove in the bottom of the top section. The locked arm forms a rigid front arm fulcrum that allows extraordinary, maximally efficient explosion of the levers of Bonds' wrists. Bonds hands are quicker than those of average hitters because of his mechanical "assistant."

4) When Bonds swings, the weight of the apparatus helps to seal his inner upper arm to his torso at impact. Thus "connected," he automatically hits the ball with the weight of his entire body - not just his arms - as average hitters ("extending") tend to do.

5) Bonds has performed less well in Home Run Derbies than one might expect because he has no excuse to wear a "protector" facing a batting practice pitcher. As he tires, his front arm elbow tends to lift and he swings under the ball, producing towering pop flies or topspin liners that stay in the park. When the apparatus is worn, its weight keeps his elbow down and he drives the ball with backspin.

6) Bonds enjoys quicker access to the inside pitch than average hitters because his "assistant" - counter-intuitively - allows him to turn more rapidly. Everyone understands that skaters accelerate their spins by pulling their arms into their torsos, closer to their axes of rotation. When Bonds is confronted with an inside pitch, he spins like a skater because his upper front arm is "assistant"-sealed tightly against the side of his chest.

7) At impact, Bonds has additional mass (the weight of his "assistant") not available to the average hitter. The combined weight of "assistant" and bat is probably equal to the weight of the lumber wielded by Babe Ruth but with more manageable weight distribution.

I don't know about the 75-100 more home runs, but I am sure every other hitter would probably want Bonds' exemption and they did before MLB started to crack down.

WSox4life
08-06-2007, 11:22 PM
I would love to be able to forward this article to Ed Farmer. Not sure about the #, but some pretty good points

RoobarbPie
08-06-2007, 11:32 PM
Will Carroll from BP addressed this issue today - Barry's armor is legal and he thinks the article is a joke.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=482

TheOldRoman
08-07-2007, 12:04 AM
Good point. I wonder if Selig sees the error in his ways, by not allowing stuff to get taken care of on the field.I was thinking on Saturday, the pitcher that gave up 755 should have drilled Bonds in his next AB. Imagine if he would have hit Bonds. He would have immediately been tossed, and Selig would have come down with a 15 game suspension within minutes. All the while, Bud is going into the fourth year of deciding whether or not he will set a date to figure out if he will eventually consider making a decision about Bonds' steroid use.

itsnotrequired
08-07-2007, 12:08 AM
For those naysayers please refute the advantage given in the seven points:

1) Ability to lean over the plate.

All hitters can do that due to the stricter plunking "rules".

2) The apparatus is hinged at the elbow. It is a literal "hitting machine" that allows Bonds to release his front arm on the same plane during every swing. It largely accounts for the seemingly magical consistency of every Bonds stroke.

Junior has a very consistent swing and doesn't have some plate armor on his elbow. I can't comment on how consistent Bonds' stroke has been throughout his career.

3) The apparatus locks at the elbow when the lead arm is fully elongated because of a small flap at the top of the bottom section that fits into a groove in the bottom of the top section. The locked arm forms a rigid front arm fulcrum that allows extraordinary, maximally efficient explosion of the levers of Bonds' wrists. Bonds hands are quicker than those of average hitters because of his mechanical "assistant."

Bonds' hands have always been quick. He also swings a light bat.

4) When Bonds swings, the weight of the apparatus helps to seal his inner upper arm to his torso at impact. Thus "connected," he automatically hits the ball with the weight of his entire body - not just his arms - as average hitters ("extending") tend to do.

The weight of his entire body "magically" transfers to his arms because of the armor?

:rolleyes:

5) Bonds has performed less well in Home Run Derbies than one might expect because he has no excuse to wear a "protector" facing a batting practice pitcher. As he tires, his front arm elbow tends to lift and he swings under the ball, producing towering pop flies or topspin liners that stay in the park. When the apparatus is worn, its weight keeps his elbow down and he drives the ball with backspin.

If he is used to batting with it on, his swing would be different without it. Seems to be not much different than a batter using different batting gloves, a different bat, a different batting helemt, etc.

6) Bonds enjoys quicker access to the inside pitch than average hitters because his "assistant" - counter-intuitively - allows him to turn more rapidly. Everyone understands that skaters accelerate their spins by pulling their arms into their torsos, closer to their axes of rotation. When Bonds is confronted with an inside pitch, he spins like a skater because his upper front arm is "assistant"-sealed tightly against the side of his chest.

Huh? Why couldn't he just pull his arms in without it? Or is he arguing that the armor helps him pull in? I'm not really buying it.

7) At impact, Bonds has additional mass (the weight of his "assistant") not available to the average hitter. The combined weight of "assistant" and bat is probably equal to the weight of the lumber wielded by Babe Ruth but with more manageable weight distribution.

More mass does not necessarily equal more power. Like I said earlier, Bonds already swings a light bat. And how much does the armor weigh anyway? I can't imagine that it adds a significant amount of potential energy.

I don't know about the 75-100 more home runs, but I am sure every other hitter would probably want Bonds' exemption and they did before MLB started to crack down.

Every hitter would want this? Why? Because of this article? I'm not a huge Will Carrol fan but he seems to be on the ball with the joke thing. Even if their was some advantage, the 75-100 HR figure is asinine.

rowand33
08-07-2007, 12:34 AM
Will Carroll from BP addressed this issue today - Barry's armor is legal and he thinks the article is a joke.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=482


How could this article not be a joke? The first thought that popped in my head was "oh, so this is an onion sports kinda thing"

SluggersAway
08-07-2007, 12:55 AM
All hitters can do that due to the stricter plunking "rules".

Not with the same ease Bonds can when he has the armor on.

Junior has a very consistent swing and doesn't have some plate armor on his elbow. I can't comment on how consistent Bonds' stroke has been throughout his career.

The apparatus aids in his consistency, this has nothing to do with Junior.

Bonds' hands have always been quick. He also swings a light bat.

The apparatus locks at the elbow when the lead arm is fully elongated because of a small flap at the top of the bottom section it makes his wrists that much quicker.

The weight of his entire body "magically" transfers to his arms because of the armor?

The weight of the apparatus transfers more power than if he was only using his arms.

If he is used to batting with it on, his swing would be different without it. Seems to be not much different than a batter using different batting gloves, a different bat, a different batting helmet, etc.

Isn't that the whole point? "As he tires, his front arm elbow tends to lift and he swings under the ball, producing towering pop flies or topspin liners that stay in the park. When the apparatus is worn, its weight keeps his elbow down and he drives the ball with backspin."

Huh? Why couldn't he just pull his arms in without it? Or is he arguing that the armor helps him pull in? I'm not really buying it.

His upper front arm is "assistant"-sealed tightly against the side of his chest thus resulting in a quicker turn.

More mass does not necessarily equal more power. Like I said earlier, Bonds already swings a light bat. And how much does the armor weigh anyway? I can't imagine that it adds a significant amount of potential energy.

A quick physics lesson: Mass times acceleration equals force.

Domeshot17
08-07-2007, 01:39 AM
For anyone who has played a lot of baseball this much is true (and probably the biggest mistake hitters make at every level, high school to mlb) and its a huge thing. The big problem hitters have (and causes guys to "just miss" balls) is they dont keep their hands inside the ball long enough. They come around it a little (especially on a Changeup or Curveball) and pop it up, bounce it, they dont drive through the ball. If the article is right, and its keeping his elbow and arms inside, its a HUGE advtantage. I dont know if it gives him 75 home runs more, but it does change a scenerio when he gets fooled on a curve, and instead of getting his hands and arms outside of the baseball, the elbow pad is pulling it back in. They make training devices that do the same thing for hitters to practice with and the hope is muscle memory and form keeps you inside the baseball.


All that being said, I dont know how many home runs it would add to bonds. Bonds is strong enough that even when he comes around the ball he can juice it into the 2nd o 3rd row. I think the pad more accounts for balls going way way out at like 450+ feet instead of 390-400. It will help some yes, but 75-100 homers seems a lot. It would be like a lefty hitter using one of the cords they make to keep them from pulling out and forces them to step a straight line. Its going to help, but how much depends on each guy.

Nellie_Fox
08-07-2007, 01:43 AM
More mass does not necessarily equal more power. Energy = Mass X (Velocity squared), so yes it does necessarily. In fact, it's a law. Velocity means more, thus the "squared," but if you can increase mass while maintaining velocity, yes it does.

SluggersAway
08-07-2007, 02:05 AM
Yesss!!!

The ideas of Isaac Newton, Olinto De Pretto, and Albert Einstein all in one WSI thread!

TornLabrum
08-07-2007, 02:13 AM
Energy = Mass X (Velocity squared), so yes it does necessarily. In fact, it's a law. Velocity means more, thus the "squared," but if you can increase mass while maintaining velocity, yes it does.

Close: KE = mv^2/2

Nellie_Fox
08-07-2007, 02:54 AM
Close: KE = mv^2/2Thank you sir. I bow to your expertise.:thumbsup:

itsnotrequired
08-07-2007, 06:56 AM
Energy = Mass X (Velocity squared), so yes it does necessarily. In fact, it's a law. Velocity means more, thus the "squared," but if you can increase mass while maintaining velocity, yes it does.

And that's why I said it doesn't necessarily equal more power. Why wouldn't all the big sluggers be using monster bats then? If velocity stays the same, then yes but velocity is often sacrificed when a heavier bat is swung. Since velocity exponentially increases energy, it has even more of an impact than the mass.

itsnotrequired
08-07-2007, 07:00 AM
Not with the same ease Bonds can when he has the armor on.



The apparatus aids in his consistency, this has nothing to do with Junior.



The apparatus locks at the elbow when the lead arm is fully elongated because of a small flap at the top of the bottom section it makes his wrists that much quicker.



The weight of the apparatus transfers more power than if he was only using his arms.



Isn't that the whole point? "As he tires, his front arm elbow tends to lift and he swings under the ball, producing towering pop flies or topspin liners that stay in the park. When the apparatus is worn, its weight keeps his elbow down and he drives the ball with backspin."



His upper front arm is "assistant"-sealed tightly against the side of his chest thus resulting in a quicker turn.



A quick physics lesson: Mass times acceleration equals force.

All you've done is take lines from the article. There isn't much debate if you do that.

Look, I'm not saying it doesn't help. I'm saying it doesn't help to the level the author is implying. He makes it sounds as if Bonds would be some ho-hum hitter without the elbow protector. 75 to 100 home runs? Gimmie a break. When did he start wearing that thing anyway? 2000? What about all his accomplishments before that time?

balke
08-07-2007, 09:44 AM
What's next, shin guards in soccer? Armpads in football? Wrist braces in bowling? Man, and I thought steroids were bad. I guess A-Rod is out, and only Ryan Howard can be a true HR hitter cause he only protects his forearm.

http://www.maxfitmag.com/content/issue2/arod_swing.jpg

http://www.pbs1914.org/archivedspotlights/RyanHoward2006MVP.jpg


/teal

voodoochile
08-07-2007, 09:48 AM
All you've done is take lines from the article. There isn't much debate if you do that.

Look, I'm not saying it doesn't help. I'm saying it doesn't help to the level the author is implying. He makes it sounds as if Bonds would be some ho-hum hitter without the elbow protector. 75 to 100 home runs? Gimmie a break. When did he start wearing that thing anyway? 2000? What about all his accomplishments before that time?

I'm no Barroid fan, but it seems a bit extreme to read one article making a claim and assume the guy is an expert. His main claim to expertise is that he has watched Barroid's swing a LOT. In fact he is the self-proclaimed expert on Barroid's swing and he's the only one who is making these claims about Barroid's body armor so far.

When there is more to go on, I will take it more seriously, but just because it appears in print in a newspaper or even on-line doesn't make it so. If it did than we would all have to accept that most of the fans at our WS rally were flubbie fans now wouldn't we? After all, that's what the Flubune said.

I think the guy is looking for some publicity and with Barroid on the verge of both breaking Hank's record AND being indicted for perjury there is plenty of room to pile on. That's what this guy did. He piled on a whole new mound of crap, declared himself the expert on said crap and got it posted on the Internet (no one ever lies on the Internet now do they? :rolleyes: )

I'll wait until there is further scientific evidence that Barroid's armor has helped him. Until then I'm still more interested in the 200 HR the steroids probably added to his total than the mythical and difficult to prove 75-100 the armor supposedly did.

balke
08-07-2007, 09:49 AM
All you've done is take lines from the article. There isn't much debate if you do that.

Look, I'm not saying it doesn't help. I'm saying it doesn't help to the level the author is implying. He makes it sounds as if Bonds would be some ho-hum hitter without the elbow protector. 75 to 100 home runs? Gimmie a break. When did he start wearing that thing anyway? 2000? What about all his accomplishments before that time?


I think the author is actually implying that there is a hydrollic pump within the armor that guides barry's swing on rails. It has built in GPS navigation and pumps at 2000 PSI. Its the only way Bonds can hit HR's anymore. Noone ever talks about Hank Aaron's Robo-eye though, or the fact that Babe Ruth actually was a robot for a large portion of his career.

itsnotrequired
08-07-2007, 09:53 AM
I'll wait until there is further scientific evidence that Barroid's armor has helped him. Until then I'm still more interested in the 200 HR the steroids probably added to his total than the mythical and difficult to prove 75-100 the armor supposedly did.

Will Carroll mentioned that he would be interviewing the manufacturer of Bonds' protective armor today. Maybe he can shed some light on the mystery of the Small Flap and Bottom Groove...

chaerulez
08-07-2007, 11:22 AM
Does this really matter? Bonds already has a ton of non legit homers due to his steroid use.

soxfan13
08-07-2007, 11:35 AM
Sorry but this article almost sounds like a Onion article or like the old Sid Finch article from SI:tongue:

PatK
08-07-2007, 11:43 AM
If the hinge locks, keeping his arm straight, explain how it gets unlocked?

Because you see him taking practice swings, or hit foul balls, or swing and miss, and he has full arm extension, or the "locked" position as the article puts it.

He would have to be reaching over and unlocking it after each swing.

soxfanaticpaulie
08-07-2007, 01:09 PM
If the hinge locks, keeping his arm straight, explain how it gets unlocked?

Because you see him taking practice swings, or hit foul balls, or swing and miss, and he has full arm extension, or the "locked" position as the article puts it.

He would have to be reaching over and unlocking it after each swing.

WOW.

It's not a 2-way lock. Think of it as a one way stop. At impact his arm is fully extended, and the one way stop is at full extention. Where, if you swing you have to support the weight of the bat and your arm at your wrists and elbow and you have to have enough muscle control to keep from hyper extending your elbow, all of the weight is anchored higher up on his arm, and he can swing all of his weight through easily because of the stop at full arm extension.

That is, if the elbow piece works as this article says.

INSox56
08-07-2007, 02:13 PM
Good point. I wonder if Selig sees the error in his ways, by not allowing stuff to get taken care of on the field.LOL hell no. Not plunking hitters makes it easier for the hitter, thus the potential to lead to more HRs...which is something I'm sure we can all agree Selig is obsessed with.