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whitesoxwilkes
08-05-2007, 07:46 PM
BBTN just reported that we had a successful claim for Tejada but the O's demands in return were too steep. How exactly this worked out I have no idea.

oeo
08-05-2007, 07:47 PM
Buster Olney just mentioned this on Baseball Tonight. No deal could be made, though, so he's staying in Baltimore.

getonbckthr
08-05-2007, 07:47 PM
According to Buster Olney the Sox claimed Tejada but couldn't get a deal in time.
Now I ask is that to block Detroit or Cleveland from making a claim and deal or was this legit interest? If it was legit I would have to assume KW will come back to this in the offseason.

ilsox7
08-05-2007, 07:49 PM
No surprise here, IMO. We are near the top in terms of getting dibs on the waiver wire. Couldn't hurt to try and see if the O's would have lower demands b/c of his contract.

MCHSoxFan
08-05-2007, 07:50 PM
According to Buster Olney the Sox claimed Tejada but couldn't get a deal in time.
Now I ask is that to block Detroit or Cleveland from making a claim and deal or was this legit interest? If it was legit I would have to assume KW will come back to this in the offseason.

I hope we get him.

MCHSoxFan
08-05-2007, 07:51 PM
Let's Get Him!!!

Rockabilly
08-05-2007, 07:52 PM
maybe we will get Tejada in the off season

NardiWasHere
08-05-2007, 07:54 PM
I wonder what we were willing to give up and what the O's would have taken

Rockabilly
08-05-2007, 07:54 PM
I bet the O's wanted Danks and a few other top prospects

JermaineDye05
08-05-2007, 07:56 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the O's asked for something along the lines of Danks/Richar/Gio or Sweeney

Grzegorz
08-05-2007, 08:01 PM
No; not interested...

Frater Perdurabo
08-05-2007, 08:03 PM
How about Tejada for Uribe and Contreras?

Rockabilly
08-05-2007, 08:03 PM
Tejada would be a great addition to the Sox but not for Danks,Gio and Richar

soxfanreggie
08-05-2007, 08:06 PM
We would have had Tejada for '08 and '09, but I'm not sure I would want to give up Danks, Richar, and Gio if that was the offer. Tejada has been very consistent, but that would be mortgaging a lot of our future. Take our one of those guys and I might have pulled the trigger.

We would have likely paid him $13 mil in '08 and '09, but I'm not sure how much of his signing bonus we'd be on the hook for. He is due $2 mil in each '10 and '11 for the remainder of the $12 mil bonus.

I think we could make a go at Eckstein and save about $8 to 10 mil per year, much needed funds to upgrade other positions. Eckstein's defense is better, but would love to have the consistent offense Tejada brings to the table. This is what they pay GMs for...tough decisions.

He gone
08-05-2007, 08:59 PM
How about Tejada for Uribe and Contreras?

If I was Kenny I would throw in a bag of baseballs just to sweet'in the deal :redneck

Brian26
08-05-2007, 09:01 PM
I hope we get him.

Let's Get Him!!!

:?:

Brian26
08-05-2007, 09:05 PM
BBTN just reported that we had a successful claim for Tejada but the O's demands in return were too steep. How exactly this worked out I have no idea.

I'd imagine KW would have been offering at least Contreras just to even out the salary elements for 2007. I can't imagine the Sox would be able to take on Tejada's contract without giving up some pricey contract(s) in return. Uribe and Contreras about a year ago may have been a decent offer for Tejada (adding in a good prospect). Now, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense from the Orioles perspective.

Foulke You
08-05-2007, 09:47 PM
I can't imagine the Sox would be able to take on Tejada's contract without giving up some pricey contract(s) in return.
We've all been conditioned to assume that KW is doing everything with a low budget mentality but perhaps Tejada might be one of those players Reinsdorf green lights KW to raise payroll for. If you'll recall KW said last year that Reinsdorf gave him permission to raise payroll if he could acquire a special player at the deadline that could put them over the top. Perhaps the organization is recognizing the need to make a splash in light of the other Chicago baseball team being in contention while we're in a down year.

Tragg
08-05-2007, 09:52 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the O's asked for something along the lines of Danks/Richar/Gio or Sweeney

Of course they did and thankfully we said no.
Use prospects like that to get YOUNG talent that isn't so expensive and that we'll have through their prime.
Or sign a player like Tejada; they are free agents often enough.

goon
08-05-2007, 09:57 PM
I wonder what the Orioles wanted in return.

soxfanreggie
08-05-2007, 10:25 PM
Would be extremely interesting to see what was desired by the O's and offered by the Sox. I would have to guess that at least one of Danks or Gio and maybe Richar.

TDog
08-05-2007, 10:46 PM
I'd imagine KW would have been offering at least Contreras just to even out the salary elements for 2007. I can't imagine the Sox would be able to take on Tejada's contract without giving up some pricey contract(s) in return. Uribe and Contreras about a year ago may have been a decent offer for Tejada (adding in a good prospect). Now, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense from the Orioles perspective.

If the Orioles are trying to move Tejada in a waiver deal, they are looking to dump salary. They aren't going to take high-contract players. Of course Kenny Williams is going to claim Tejada. If he doesn't add some offense at shortstop, he at least keeps Tejada from going to a team ahead of them in the AL Central.

In September 1970, the mired-in-last White Sox claimed Steve Hamilton on irrevocable waivers from the Yankees. Hamilton was headed for a contending team and was upset that he was stuck with a team playing out the string with a rookie manager taking over in September. Hamilton publicly disrespected the team in the media. When the White Sox changed uniform in 1971 to a design that didn't have names on the home uniforms, Hamilton told Look magazine, "They're taking the name off our uniforms for our protection."

The idea to pick up a veteran reliever for 1971 didn't pan out. They traded Hamilton to the Giants for Steve Huntz.

In those days, though, the trade deadline was in June. I have to wonder why this year a team wanting Tejada wouldn't have worked out the deal a week ago.

jabrch
08-05-2007, 10:53 PM
I'm not sure I would want to give up Danks, Richar, and Gio if that was the offer.

***** - there is absolutely no way we would have given up those 3 for Tejada - on the downslope of his career. That's ridiculous.

iamkoza
08-05-2007, 10:56 PM
tejada has gotten old fast, obviously he is an improvement... i wouldn't mind him in uribe's place in 08 assuming the o's eat most of his contract... but that isnt going to happen

KyWhiSoxFan
08-05-2007, 11:18 PM
I don't want Tejada unless the Sox can get him for nothing. The Sox can't give up what little young talent they have for an aging player. The Sox already have enough old players and they need to get younger and faster. Plus, Tejada is tainted by the steroid whispers and I would steer clear.

HotelWhiteSox
08-05-2007, 11:41 PM
There is a little blurb on it in the 'Ozzie praises Bonds' article on chicagosports.com . Says Sox have no comment, these things are common, although the Orioles had scouts at our last homestand

esbrechtel
08-05-2007, 11:44 PM
They better not trade away Danks...otherwise our rotation next year is in trouble, we cant have Gio and Floyd pitching in the rotation next season...

soxfanreggie
08-05-2007, 11:46 PM
Jabrch,

Calm the heck down. In my posts, I have said that this is something I wouldn't be in support of. I don't know what got your panties in a bunch but calm down.

Indianapolis
08-06-2007, 01:01 AM
Anderson,Liotta, Contreras for Hanley Ramirez. Jose would be a fan favorite and a boost to ticket sales in Miami

ilsox7
08-06-2007, 01:05 AM
Anderson,Liotta, Contreras for Hanley Ramirez. Jose would be a fan favorite and a boost to ticket sales in Miami

1. The Marlins would not take on the $$$ Jose is owed.

2. Jose has 0 trade value right now.

3. BA has very little trade value right now. And he is hurt.

4. Why is our trash another team's gem? There is absolutely, 100%, no way this trade would even be considered by KW or the Fish. No possible way.

HotelWhiteSox
08-06-2007, 01:08 AM
Anderson,Liotta, Contreras for Hanley Ramirez. Jose would be a fan favorite and a boost to ticket sales in Miami

Take the advice of your sig my friend

iamkoza
08-06-2007, 01:15 AM
contreras needs a nice long DL trip, obviously something is wrong physically... your fastball doesn't just go from 95 to 85 because of being one year older. He's going to be around for the next 2 years, might as well shut it down for a while and figure out what the heck is up

oeo
08-06-2007, 01:20 AM
contreras needs a nice long DL trip, obviously something is wrong physically... your fastball doesn't just go from 95 to 85 because of being one year older. He's going to be around for the next 2 years, might as well shut it down for a while and figure out what the heck is up

He's not throwing 85. It's more in the 89-92 range...and sometimes can hit as high as 94.

hsnterprize
08-06-2007, 07:45 AM
Personally, the only player I'd like to see the Sox "try" for during the off season is Torii Hunter. He's already stated that he'd like to play here considering how the ballpark is and such. I wouldn't necessarily give up all our prospects to get him, but if he comes at a fair price...I wouldn't mind seeing him in a Sox uniform next year.

santo=dorf
08-06-2007, 07:50 AM
He's already stated that he'd like to play here considering how the ballpark is and such. I wouldn't necessarily give up all our prospects to get him, but if he comes at a fair price...I wouldn't mind seeing him in a Sox uniform next year.
He's a free agent and he's been saying the "I would love to play in this ballpark" line at every road game. He's whoring it for some more money on his eventual big pay day.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-06-2007, 08:20 AM
Uribe has 11 HRs and 43 RBIs. Tejada has 9 HRs and 47 RBIs hitting in the middle of the Orioles lineup. Why would you want Tejada for 13.8 million? He just got very old very fast.

Plus, he is not a better fielder than Uribe. I'd run as fast as I could away from Tejada. It makes no sense going after him. Even if you got him for nothing in return to the O's, his salary would restrict other moves you would want to make in the offseason.

soxfan13
08-06-2007, 09:00 AM
Uribe has 11 HRs and 43 RBIs. Tejada has 9 HRs and 47 RBIs hitting in the middle of the Orioles lineup. Why would you want Tejada for 13.8 million? He just got very old very fast.

Plus, he is not a better fielder than Uribe. I'd run as fast as I could away from Tejada. It makes no sense going after him. Even if you got him for nothing in return to the O's, his salary would restrict other moves you would want to make in the offseason.

Since you are using stats you left 2 big ones out, Uribe .215 AVG .267 OBP

Tejada .298 AVG .349 OBP. If the right package could be put together IMO Tejada is a huge improvement over Uribe.

Rockabilly
08-06-2007, 09:20 AM
would any of you trade Garland for Tejada

Mickster
08-06-2007, 09:21 AM
would any of you trade Garland for Tejada


No.

jabrch
08-06-2007, 09:33 AM
If the right package could be put together IMO Tejada is a huge improvement over Uribe.


Only offensively. Defensively Tejada is a huge liability - and fading. I agree - if the right package could be put together, he'd be good. But I wouldn't give up anyone (much less multiples) off of our organizaiton's Top 10 prospect list for Tejada with that price tag.

soxfan13
08-06-2007, 10:18 AM
would any of you trade Garland for Tejada

Yes , especially if it looks like the Sox wont be able to keep him after next year.

Tragg
08-06-2007, 10:18 AM
Only offensively. Defensively Tejada is a huge liability - and fading. I agree - if the right package could be put together, he'd be good. But I wouldn't give up anyone (much less multiples) off of our organizaiton's Top 10 prospect list for Tejada with that price tag.
Exactly - his use is as a hitter - and no top prospects. Bad defense to support what the Sox invest in pitching is a questionable idea. And where's the salary dump discount for him?
As for Garland - I'd consider trading him for some young players with tools, including defensive tools. CC or SS specifically.

Foulke You
08-06-2007, 10:59 AM
Only offensively. Defensively Tejada is a huge liability - and fading.
Is Tejada fading or is he merely having an off year on a very bad Orioles team that is playing out the string? Paul Konerko didn't have a good year in 2003 but he wasn't fading. Frank Thomas had a bad year in 1999 and is still going strong today in 2007. He is only 31 years old and if you take a look at Tejada's numbers prior to this year, they are pretty amazing:

http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=123173&statType=1

If the price wasn't too high, I'd take a chance with Tejada. I wouldn't give up Garland or too much young talent to get him but if the price was right, I'd take a chance.

jabrch
08-06-2007, 11:04 AM
As for Garland - I'd consider trading him for some young players with tools, including defensive tools. CC or SS specifically.

Me too. The price for Garland would have to be more than the price we got for Freddy. (1 top tier AA prospect and a second potentially valuable prospect) So some team is going to have to want to give up probably one of the two or three best players in their system, plus another guy in the top 10.

I'd happily take Brandon Wood and Jeff Mathis+ for him. (I'd miss Jon, but not so much) I'd take Adam Jones and Jeff Clement+. The Dodgers could put together a nice package with all that young talent they have. If the Mets decide they are ready to part with Martinez, Gomez, Pelfrey and Humber, some combination of those guy might do it. Before the Braves sent the farm to Texas, they could have put together a very attractive package with Andrus, Saltalamacchia, Escobar, Harrison and Reyes. The DBacks have awesome young hitting talent that I'd be interested in. (Drew and Upton, along with Young)

I will happily go into battle next season with Gar in the rotation. If he doesn't want to stay, and we are in contention at the deadline, I'd take the draft picks. But at the same time, if some other team wants to go for it, and give up the farm, KW would listen.

Huisj
08-06-2007, 11:07 AM
Since you are using stats you left 2 big ones out, Uribe .215 AVG .267 OBP

Tejada .298 AVG .349 OBP. If the right package could be put together IMO Tejada is a huge improvement over Uribe.

Not to mention another big one that Tejada missed a month on the DL and thus has played fewer games than Uribe.

johnr1note
08-06-2007, 11:16 AM
Uribe has 11 HRs and 43 RBIs. Tejada has 9 HRs and 47 RBIs hitting in the middle of the Orioles lineup. Why would you want Tejada for 13.8 million? He just got very old very fast.

Plus, he is not a better fielder than Uribe. I'd run as fast as I could away from Tejada. It makes no sense going after him. Even if you got him for nothing in return to the O's, his salary would restrict other moves you would want to make in the offseason.

Yes, well . . . MLB now has more stringent testing for certain chemical substances . . .

jabrch
08-06-2007, 11:20 AM
Is Tejada fading or is he merely having an off year on a very bad Orioles team that is playing out the string? Paul Konerko didn't have a good year in 2003 but he wasn't fading. Frank Thomas had a bad year in 1999 and is still going strong today in 2007. He is only 31 years old and if you take a look at Tejada's numbers prior to this year, they are pretty amazing:

http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=123173&statType=1

If the price wasn't too high, I'd take a chance with Tejada. I wouldn't give up Garland or too much young talent to get him but if the price was right, I'd take a chance.

Defensively - he is fading. His skill set is diminishing. He's not as mobile. He's not as strong armed. He's just not as good. He's been hurt a bit this year, which is new after playing 162 games for 6 straight years (and 160 and 159 the two prior)

I'd love to have him - I just wouldn't give up Gio, Broadway, DLS, etc. for him.

jabrch
08-06-2007, 11:22 AM
Yes, well . . . MLB now has more stringent testing for certain chemical substances . . .

He has been a teammate of Canseco, McGwire, Giambi, Palmeiro and Sosa. Any chance he got a "bad B6" vitamin ever?

johnr1note
08-06-2007, 11:25 AM
He has been a teammate of Canseco, McGwire, Giambi, Palmeiro and Sosa. Any chance he got a "bad B6" vitamin ever?

Obviously, he's been Palmiero's teammate for years. And wasn't there some rumblings back when Palmiero had his problems that Tejada was involved as well -- didn't Palmiero implicate Tejada by saying the substance that caused his alleged false positive come from Tejada? I don't recall the details.

Lip Man 1
08-06-2007, 11:53 AM
Tejada suffered a broken wrist which isn't something that happens everyday.

By the way, Comcast Sports last night said Baltimore and the Sox can still agree to a deal, the O's can give Tejeda to the Sox or Baltimore can withdraw Tejeda's list off the waiver list.

We'll see what happens.

Lip

Foulke You
08-06-2007, 11:56 AM
I'd love to have him - I just wouldn't give up Gio, Broadway, DLS, etc. for him.
I agree completely. He is not the player you mortgage the farm for right now but if the price was low enough...

Zisk77
08-06-2007, 12:13 PM
Yes, well . . . MLB now has more stringent testing for certain chemical substances . . .


Exactly....I don't think he suddenly aged 7 years over night.

munchman33
08-06-2007, 01:34 PM
I have no problem giving up Broadway, or even Gio for Tejada. We still have four good pitchers under contract next year in Garland, Danks, Buehrle, and Vasquez. Contreras and Gavin are two viable fifth starters. And there's always the option of signing someone too. Get it done. Tejada seems to be the only option other than Uribe when it comes to available shortstops.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-06-2007, 02:01 PM
I have no problem giving up Broadway, or even Gio for Tejada. We still have four good pitchers under contract next year in Garland, Danks, Buehrle, and Vasquez. Contreras and Gavin are two viable fifth starters. And there's always the option of signing someone too. Get it done. Tejada seems to be the only option other than Uribe when it comes to available shortstops.

I don't see how Tejada is worth $13.8-million to Uribe's $5-million. (Note: I would like to see Uribe replaced for 2008). That extra $8-million would hamstring the Sox for other purposes: pay increases to existing players, obtaining players on the free agent market, etc. Tejada's salary eats up another potential player's contract. Heck, Dye might sign for $8-million. There's no way Tejada is worth more than Dye offensively.

palehozenychicty
08-06-2007, 02:07 PM
I don't see how Tejada is worth $13.8-million to Uribe's $5-million. (Note: I would like to see Uribe replaced for 2008). That extra $8-million would hamstring the Sox for other purposes: pay increases to existing players, obtaining players on the free agent market, etc. Tejada's salary eats up another potential player's contract. Heck, Dye might sign for $8-million. There's no way Tejada is worth more than Dye offensively.

There is your answer about Tejada. I'd go after the Angels, Dodgers, and DBacks to unearth a shortstop from their systems before signing/training a declining free agent/player.

RCWHITESOX
08-06-2007, 02:20 PM
I agree completely. He is not the player you mortgage the farm for right now but if the price was low enough...

Why is everyone so high on our farm system at this time? Outside of Fields and Owens I haven't seen much to get excited about. As for Danks he has an ERA of over 5.00 Their are quite a few young pitchers up at this time with much better numbers. I think the Sox have made the right move by restructuring their farm system; and in the off season should go after free agents such as E Byrns and A Rowand and possibly readdress the Garland trade with Atlanta for Renteria or a Crede move to the LAA for a package of Aybar and Kendrick.

Foulke You
08-06-2007, 03:13 PM
Why is everyone so high on our farm system at this time? Outside of Fields and Owens I haven't seen much to get excited about. As for Danks he has an ERA of over 5.00 Their are quite a few young pitchers up at this time with much better numbers. I think the Sox have made the right move by restructuring their farm system; and in the off season should go after free agents such as E Byrns and A Rowand and possibly readdress the Garland trade with Atlanta for Renteria or a Crede move to the LAA for a package of Aybar and Kendrick.
I'm not jumping up and down with joy for all of our young players but if the price for Tejada was Danks, Fields, and Gio Gonzalez, you'd have to be crazy to do that move. The Orioles aren't going to be asking for the B list youngsters in a Tejada trade. They will ask for 2 or 3 of our top young players some of whom are already up with the big league club and are contributing. If that is their price, then I don't think we should do the trade. If the Orioles are looking for salary relief and maybe 1 young player, then yeah, I would take the risk in acquiring Tejada.

jabrch
08-06-2007, 03:24 PM
I'm not jumping up and down with joy for all of our young players but if the price for Tejada was Danks, Fields, and Gio Gonzalez, you'd have to be crazy to do that move.

I wouldn't give them ONE of those three, much less all of them.

munchman33
08-06-2007, 03:25 PM
There's no way Tejada is worth more than Dye offensively.

That's simply not true. Tejada's production comes at shortstop. There aren't many shortstops that can put up those numbers. And honestly, if we don't get Tejada, we'll be stuck with Uribe. There aren't any better shortstops available. And the aforementioned package would not be enough to get a Brandon Wood or another young stud shortstop prospect. We probably don't have those players in the system to pull of that kind of a deal. Shortstop is a value position. It's worth a lot more than the outfield, where there are numerous veterans we can sign in the offseason to bargain deals that might give decent production. You don't find that at shortstop.

Let's put it this way:

I'd rather pay Tejada 14 million next year and sign a veteran outfielder for $3 million and have him battle Sweeney for time than sign Dye for $12 million and pickup Uribe's option for $5 million.

jabrch
08-06-2007, 03:28 PM
That's simply not true. Tejada's production comes at shortstop. There aren't many shortstops that can put up those numbers. And honestly, if we don't get Tejada, we'll be stuck with Uribe. There aren't any better shortstops available. And the aforementioned package would not be enough to get a Brandon Wood or another young stud shortstop prospect. We probably don't have those players in the system to pull of that kind of a deal. Shortstop is a value position. It's worth a lot more than the outfield, where there are numerous veterans we can sign in the offseason to bargain deals that might give decent production. You don't find that at shortstop.

Let's put it this way:

I'd rather pay Tejada 14 million next year and sign a veteran outfielder for $3 million and have him battle Sweeney for time than sign Dye for $12 million and pickup Uribe's option for $5 million.

The problem is that Tejada is a terrible SS defensively, and he is getting worse and worse. I don't think his defense is good enough to play SS on a WS team.

Oh, that and the fact that Baltimore wants multiple top tier prospects for him.

WSox4life
08-06-2007, 03:33 PM
Interesting news but not worth it imo. More money, and our bats have sucked but we know there are more important things than adding bats. We would still have the same holes, maybe more with what we give up. Plus our bats have been better lately. No need to add more money and get older, pass!

munchman33
08-06-2007, 03:44 PM
The problem is that Tejada is a terrible SS defensively, and he is getting worse and worse. I don't think his defense is good enough to play SS on a WS team.

Oh, that and the fact that Baltimore wants multiple top tier prospects for him.

Ha...well Tejada is certainly not as good as he once was. But he does still have decent range. And while his arm isn't what it used to be, it's still better than average. He's not as good as Uribe defensively, but seriously, there aren't many that are. Plenty of teams win the WS with decent defenders at short. That's exactly what Tejada is. He isn't below average by any means.

Anway, there won't be anyone available to us better than Tejada defensively at shortstop, sans Uribe. Unless you believe Visquel isn't going to retire...

balke
08-06-2007, 03:44 PM
Anytime you can put a guy with 100+ Runs, 100+ RBI, 40+ doubles, 25+ HR's and a +.300 avg. in the lineup, you do it. If Dye were re-signed, that would put 4 power bats in the lineup. That would be pretty amazing.

BadBobbyJenks
08-06-2007, 03:50 PM
Where is the evidence of Baltimore asking for multiple top tier prospects? I have yet to find anything saying that, any one have a link?

jabrch
08-06-2007, 04:33 PM
Ha...well Tejada is certainly not as good as he once was. But he does still have decent range. And while his arm isn't what it used to be, it's still better than average. He's not as good as Uribe defensively, but seriously, there aren't many that are. Plenty of teams win the WS with decent defenders at short. That's exactly what Tejada is. He isn't below average by any means.

Anway, there won't be anyone available to us better than Tejada defensively at shortstop, sans Uribe. Unless you believe Visquel isn't going to retire...

There has not been a WS winner with a SS who was worse defensively than Tejada in the past 20 years.


Anway, there won't be anyone available to us better than Tejada defensively at shortstop,

Eckstein is a FA. There are many better defenders than Tejada who are/will be available.

And I am not yet at the point of believing that Juan Uribe can't be a part of a winning baseball team.

munchman33
08-06-2007, 05:56 PM
There has not been a WS winner with a SS who was worse defensively than Tejada in the past 20 years.


You obviously believe in the myth that is Gold Glover Derek Jeter. Smart player and good fielder. But no range whatsoever. Rather have Tejada defensively.

Tigers should have won the WS last year with Carlos Guillen at SS. And he's terrible defensively. Might be the worst in the game. But nothing he did prevented them from winning. It was their pitchers.

I don't believe Eckstein is all that great defensively. He plays his heart out, yes, but he plays with a very small skill set. I admire him, but I don't think he's appreciably better than Tejada defensively either. If at all, for that matter. And for what Eckstein and his serious offensive deficiences are going to cost on the open market, getting Tejada is a much smarter decision.

jabrch
08-06-2007, 06:17 PM
You obviously believe in the myth that is Gold Glover Derek Jeter. Smart player and good fielder. But no range whatsoever. Rather have Tejada defensively.

Tigers should have won the WS last year with Carlos Guillen at SS. And he's terrible defensively. Might be the worst in the game. But nothing he did prevented them from winning. It was their pitchers.

I don't believe Eckstein is all that great defensively. He plays his heart out, yes, but he plays with a very small skill set. I admire him, but I don't think he's appreciably better than Tejada defensively either. If at all, for that matter. And for what Eckstein and his serious offensive deficiences are going to cost on the open market, getting Tejada is a much smarter decision.

I never said Jeter is the best in baseball - but he is worlds better than Tejada - and it isn't close. Guillen also - Not sure what you are talking about, but he has more range and a much more effective arm that Tejada at this point. And Eckstein? Are you ****ting me? Who cares about how big or small he is - he makes the plays - and he does it much more effectively than does Tejada. The only balls he doesn't get to that Tejada comes close to are the ones hit 3 inches over his glove. He never had a strong arm, but he gets in a good enough position that he can curl-hop the ball over there. It isn't pretty - you would never teach it that way - but it is effective if you have enough range to put yourself in front of a ball.

You obviously believe in the myth that just because a guy was a good hitter when he is juiced up, that he is a good fielder also. (a statement equally as condescending and hopefully as untrue as you accusing me of believing in the GG myth of Jeter...just for the record)

At this point in his career, Miguel Tejada is going to start looking for somewhere else to play, because if he is going to be on a great team, he won't be doing it at SS effectively. He doesn't have the range that it takes and his arm is not usefully strong - he can't throw well moving to his right anymore.

santo=dorf
08-06-2007, 06:20 PM
There has not been a WS winner with a SS who was worse defensively than Tejada in the past 20 years.
False. David Eckstein

Eckstein is a FA. There are many better defenders than Tejada who are/will be available.
....and none of their defense levels will be able to match the greater offensive ouput he will give. Eckstein isn't a better defender anyways and he's not a good hitter.

And I am not yet at the point of believing that Juan Uribe can't be a part of a winning baseball team.
well duh, he was on the 2005 team. If you can make a big upgrade at a position for a cheap-average price, why not do it?

I'd gladly give them Gio and Broadway for him. We'd probably get some cash back in the deal as well. KW vs. the triple threat of Duquette, MacPhail, and Angelos? I don't care what the stipulations are, KW will come out on top. :cool:

getonbckthr
08-06-2007, 06:30 PM
You obviously believe in the myth that is Gold Glover Derek Jeter. Smart player and good fielder. But no range whatsoever. Rather have Tejada defensively.

Tigers should have won the WS last year with Carlos Guillen at SS. And he's terrible defensively. Might be the worst in the game. But nothing he did prevented them from winning. It was their pitchers.

I don't believe Eckstein is all that great defensively. He plays his heart out, yes, but he plays with a very small skill set. I admire him, but I don't think he's appreciably better than Tejada defensively either. If at all, for that matter. And for what Eckstein and his serious offensive deficiences are going to cost on the open market, getting Tejada is a much smarter decision.
But but he does the hop skip and jump thingy surely that makes him the best SS ever.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-06-2007, 06:57 PM
I can't see why anyone would want the current day Tejada (he's not the same player of three or four years ago). For $13.8-million, he has produced 44 runs, 47 RBIs, and 9 HRs. Uribe has 34 runs, 43 RBIs, and 11 HRs. And Uribe is terrible.

For $8-million more than you would pay Uribe, you get 10 runs (1/8th of a run per game) and 4 more RBIs. And worse defense.

One reason Tejada's RBIs and runs are low is because he has played 18 less games than Uribe. He's got a bad wrist. You never know if he is starting to break down and he begins missing even more games in the future. He's not worth the money or the risk.

Domeshot17
08-06-2007, 07:05 PM
I can't see why anyone would want the current day Tejada (he's not the same player of three or four years ago). For $13.8-million, he has produced 44 runs, 47 RBIs, and 9 HRs. Uribe has 34 runs, 43 RBIs, and 11 HRs. And Uribe is terrible.

For $8-million more than you would pay Uribe, you get 10 runs (1/8th of a run per game) and 4 more RBIs. And worse defense.

One reason Tejada's RBIs and runs are low is because he has played 18 less games than Uribe. He's got a bad wrist. You never know if he is starting to break down and he begins missing even more games in the future. He's not worth the money or the risk.

2 things to note. Tejada started slow with power but his average and OBP blow Uribe away. and with his Wrist, it was a freak injury. The guy had been a Cal Ripken play everyday guy until he got hurt so bad he couldnt get on the field. Tejada also doesnt have the guys Uribe does around him to drive in or drive him in.

Brian26
08-06-2007, 08:02 PM
If Dye were re-signed, that would put 4 power bats in the lineup. That would be pretty amazing.

That doesn't win you a World Series. The Sox learned that in '97 and '98.
I find the people infatuated with Tejada's name are the same people who were on the Griffey Jr bandwagon two years ago. There are more important pieces to the puzzle.

lostfan
08-06-2007, 08:06 PM
2 things to note. Tejada started slow with power but his average and OBP blow Uribe away. and with his Wrist, it was a freak injury. The guy had been a Cal Ripken play everyday guy until he got hurt so bad he couldnt get on the field. Tejada also doesnt have the guys Uribe does around him to drive in or drive him in.
If I'm not mistaken he had the longest current consecutive games streak going until he broke his wrist. I don't remember exactly how many it was but it was in the thousands.

munchman33
08-06-2007, 08:38 PM
I never said Jeter is the best in baseball - but he is worlds better than Tejada - and it isn't close. Guillen also - Not sure what you are talking about, but he has more range and a much more effective arm that Tejada at this point. And Eckstein? Are you ****ting me? Who cares about how big or small he is - he makes the plays - and he does it much more effectively than does Tejada. The only balls he doesn't get to that Tejada comes close to are the ones hit 3 inches over his glove. He never had a strong arm, but he gets in a good enough position that he can curl-hop the ball over there. It isn't pretty - you would never teach it that way - but it is effective if you have enough range to put yourself in front of a ball.

You obviously believe in the myth that just because a guy was a good hitter when he is juiced up, that he is a good fielder also. (a statement equally as condescending and hopefully as untrue as you accusing me of believing in the GG myth of Jeter...just for the record)

At this point in his career, Miguel Tejada is going to start looking for somewhere else to play, because if he is going to be on a great team, he won't be doing it at SS effectively. He doesn't have the range that it takes and his arm is not usefully strong - he can't throw well moving to his right anymore.

Tejada has more range than Jeter.

The Tigers are trying to trade for a shortstop so they can move Guillen to first base because his range and arm accuracy are so poor.

It takes Eck a lot longer to get throws over to first base. And if I say that the ranges of him and Tejada are even, I'm probably being extremely generous to Eck. And I mean lateral.

You seem to have some sort of agenda against Miguel Tejada to the point where you take any weakness and view it as millions of times worse than they really are.

Miguel Tejada was an outstanding defensive player. His skills have diminished slightly with age. It is noticable, when compared to what he used to be. But to say that he is anything but above average defensively is simply not true. He's still a good defender. And better than any of the above names.

santo=dorf
08-06-2007, 08:45 PM
That doesn't win you a World Series. The Sox learned that in '97 and '98.
I find the people infatuated with Tejada's name are the same people who were on the Griffey Jr bandwagon two years ago. There are more important pieces to the puzzle.
The Sox didn't win jack back then because of crappy pitching.

The Sox didn't win the World Series because of their non-slugging lineup (who still hit 200 homers,) it was because of the pitching.

Compare the pitching staffs between the late 90 Sox teams and the 2005 team.

The Indians seemed to do pretty well all those years with a lineup full of Thome, Ramirez, Justice, Matt Williams, Fryman, Sexson, and Belle. Hell, even Roberto Alomar averaged 20 homers a year for them.

munchman33
08-06-2007, 08:49 PM
The Sox didn't win jack back then because of crappy pitching.

The Sox didn't win the World Series because of their non-slugging lineup (who still hit 200 homers,) it was because of the pitching.

Compare the pitching staffs between the late 90 Sox teams and the 2005 team.

The Indians seemed to do pretty well all those years with a lineup full of Thome, Ramirez, Justice, Matt Williams, Fryman, Sexson, and Belle. Hell, even Roberto Alomar averaged 20 homers a year for them.

Yeah, people don't seem to get that there's plenty of ways to win. But the best way is a balance of the power and speed guys. Not all one way or the other. Looks like we'll have the speed with Richar and Owens next year, and maybe Pods too. I don't see how people can argue that Tejada would hurt us. It simply doesn't make sense.

Grzegorz
08-06-2007, 09:26 PM
And I am not yet at the point of believing that Juan Uribe can't be a part of a winning baseball team.

I am; this position needs an upgrade. I'd take a Jack Wilson over Uribe.

jdm2662
08-06-2007, 09:54 PM
I am; this position needs an upgrade. I'd take a Jack Wilson over Uribe.

I'm so fed up with Uribe, I would take Ozzie over Uribe right now.:o:

NardiWasHere
08-06-2007, 10:01 PM
Yeah, people don't seem to get that there's plenty of ways to win. But the best way is a balance of the power and speed guys. Not all one way or the other. Looks like we'll have the speed with Richar and Owens next year, and maybe Pods too. I don't see how people can argue that Tejada would hurt us. It simply doesn't make sense.

Who here remembers all the idiotic comments from people who for some reason, would not have wanted to see A-Rod in a Sox uni?

But...but... we don't need the best hitter of his generation.... we need more guys with heart!

Bulls_Fan
08-06-2007, 10:03 PM
I'm so fed up with Uribe, I would take Ozzie over Uribe right now.:o:

Heck, i'd take Ozzie Newsome as our SS over Uribe. I am DONE with Uribe and his hit from his ankle uppercut swing. It's time we get a fresh start a SS next season.

WSox4life
08-06-2007, 11:15 PM
Is there an online resource where we can find the players put on waivers, or is it a secret type of thing

South Side Irish
08-06-2007, 11:38 PM
But...but... we don't need the best hitter of his generation.... we need more guys with heart!

Albert Pujols has never been the subject of waiver/trade discussions. However, the point remains: supreme talent of the Pujols/ARod/Tejada kind is rare, and you've got to grab it if possible. Richar I like, and Danks is good, too, but 5 years from now we'd be kicking ourselves for not taking Tejada for that "cheap."

PaleHosed
08-07-2007, 12:00 AM
Wow...I mean WOW... what is with all the Tejada hate? Tejada has been one of the top two all around SS for the past few years... have you people been watching baseball?!? Outside of A-Rod... has there been anybody better offensively at SS?

Sure this year he is not putting up the numbers, but come on, give the guy a break HE BROKE HIS WRIST!

I agree he might be a *small* downgrade defensively, but who isn't going to be. For all that Uribe doesn't do with his bat, the one thing he does do is play an excellent SS.

I wouldn't auction off the farm system to get him...but I sure as hell would be willing to give up a top tier prospect to get one of the best SS in the game right now.

DeadMoney
08-07-2007, 12:20 AM
Wow...I mean WOW... what is with all the Tejada hate? Tejada has been one of the top two all around SS for the past few years... have you people been watching baseball?!? Outside of A-Rod... has there been anybody better offensively at SS?

Sure this year he is not putting up the numbers, but come on, give the guy a break HE BROKE HIS WRIST!

I agree he might be a *small* downgrade defensively, but who isn't going to be. For all that Uribe doesn't do with his bat, the one thing he does do is play an excellent SS.

I wouldn't auction off the farm system to get him...but I sure as hell would be willing to give up a top tier prospect to get one of the best SS in the game right now.

The funny part about all of the Tejada-hate is people talking about him like he is nearly dead. It's funny because he's a year YOUNGER then A-Rod and my impression of him has always been along the lines of, "he's a player who goes out everyday and plays like it's his last day in baseball."

Yes, he may be a downgrade defensively, but this guy could be penciled into the line-up day-in and day-out with no complaints. If it wasn't for that wrist injury he had, he'd still be in the middle of extending what ended as a 1,152 consecutive games streak. Sometimes I don't get it. We all want Uribe gone, but trying to get one of the best SS in the game, in the prime of his career, doesn't cut it. And don't say that money is a reason; KW will figure out the money if he has to. An opportunity to grab one of the best at his position doesn't come along every day.

...but since it didn't happen and probably wont, oh well.

jabrch
08-07-2007, 12:47 AM
The funny part about all of the Tejada-hate


There is no "Tejada-Hate". People are saying Tejada is not good enough at playing SS that he'd be worth multiple top tier prospects. I'm shocked so many people want to give up the future for a guy who is having a bad year and is getting to the age where guys don't play SS so well.

jabrch
08-07-2007, 12:48 AM
Pujols/ARod/Tejada


One of these things is not like the others...

oeo
08-07-2007, 12:55 AM
Anytime you can put a guy with 100+ Runs, 100+ RBI, 40+ doubles, 25+ HR's and a +.300 avg. in the lineup, you do it. If Dye were re-signed, that would put 4 power bats in the lineup. That would be pretty amazing.

Personally, I think if Tejada was acquired, Dye would be sent on his way.

MrX
08-07-2007, 01:00 AM
I've only looked at the past couple of pages so I'm not sure if this has been posted but Ken Rosenthal was on CSN tonight and said there weren't any talks and Baltimore pulled Tejada back right away. He said if they trade him it will be in the offseason when they can have teams bid against each other.

Craig Grebeck
08-07-2007, 07:08 AM
We need to get younger, faster, and cheaper with any position player acquisitions. Also, (I believe) the trade would have had to include guys NOT on the White Sox 40 man roster, because Danks and Richar both would have been claimed by about every team in baseball. The deal probably would have centered around DLS. I want no part of Tejada, he would do nothing to fix our problems.

balke
08-07-2007, 09:27 AM
Personally, I think if Tejada was acquired, Dye would be sent on his way.

Maybe, but if not that would be a pretty sweet combo of hitters either way. At least with Tejada you could get a full season of stats out of the guy. I don't recall him ever pulling a 1st half slump like JD has twice now.

balke
08-07-2007, 09:34 AM
There is no "Tejada-Hate". People are saying Tejada is not good enough at playing SS that he'd be worth multiple top tier prospects. I'm shocked so many people want to give up the future for a guy who is having a bad year and is getting to the age where guys don't play SS so well.

Depends what prospects. So far our top tier prospects look pretty avg. The Sox could send Fields to Baltimore and move Tejada to 3rd if that would make everyone happy about the defensive side of things. That way when we sign A-rod, he can move back to SS. I'm thinking:

Pods
Tejada
Thome
A-Rod
PK
Dye
Erstad
AJ
Richar


And I'm joking. But still, win now is the plan. We have Thome, Konerko, and Dye with a good catcher and good pitching that is soon to crumble a bit. If Kenny wants to give himself the best chance to win now, Tejada would look pretty darn good at SS or 3B for this team. There's not too many prospects I'd be missing if Tejada came in the deal. So far, noone looks like they are a future Tejada.

munchman33
08-07-2007, 10:28 AM
There is no "Tejada-Hate". People are saying Tejada is not good enough at playing SS that he'd be worth multiple top tier prospects. I'm shocked so many people want to give up the future for a guy who is having a bad year and is getting to the age where guys don't play SS so well.

Your claim that he can't play shortstop is where the "Tejada-Hate" claims come from. Because if, as you say, Tejada is not good enough defensively to be an everyday shortstop, more than half of all everyday shortstops are also not good enough. Because Tejada is definately, without a doubt, better defensively than half of the everyday shortstops in baseball.

It seems more that you don't want Tejada because of the claims he took steroids. If that's your reason, then just say that. I can respect that reason. But don't claim he's bad defensively. Because he isn't, by any stretch of the imagination. And claiming he is only makes you look like you either don't know what you're talking about, or that you have some sort of agenda.

jabrch
08-07-2007, 10:51 AM
Your claim that he can't play shortstop is where the "Tejada-Hate" claims come from. Because if, as you say, Tejada is not good enough defensively to be an everyday shortstop, more than half of all everyday shortstops are also not good enough. Because Tejada is definately, without a doubt, better defensively than half of the everyday shortstops in baseball.

I didn't claim that he can't play SS. I said that he is no longer good defensively. Lots of guys can play SS - and just not do it well. I just flat out disagree with your statement as to where he ranks (top half) against others.

It seems more that you don't want Tejada because of the claims he took steroids. If that's your reason, then just say that. I can respect that reason. But don't claim he's bad defensively. Because he isn't, by any stretch of the imagination. And claiming he is only makes you look like you either don't know what you're talking about, or that you have some sort of agenda.

Nope - nothing to do with that. I am not willing to give up multiple top tier prospects for a 32 year old with declining defensive skills at the most key defensive position. I'd much rather have Uribe, 8-10mm and our top prospects instead of Tejada. His potential steroid use is not the problem. It's his current skill set. He moves poorly to his right, his arm is not what it once was, and he is 32. That's just not the guy I'd give up two of my top prospects and pay big money for.

SoxxoS
08-07-2007, 11:04 AM
Nope - nothing to do with that. I am not willing to give up multiple top tier prospects for a 32 year old with declining defensive skills at the most key defensive position. I'd much rather have Uribe, 8-10mm and our top prospects instead of Tejada. His potential steroid use is not the problem. It's his current skill set. He moves poorly to his right, his arm is not what it once was, and he is 32. That's just not the guy I'd give up two of my top prospects and pay big money for.

Spot on.

spiffie
08-07-2007, 11:05 AM
I didn't claim that he can't play SS. I said that he is no longer good defensively. Lots of guys can play SS - and just not do it well. I just flat out disagree with your statement as to where he ranks (top half) against others.



Nope - nothing to do with that. I am not willing to give up multiple top tier prospects for a 32 year old with declining defensive skills at the most key defensive position. I'd much rather have Uribe, 8-10mm and our top prospects instead of Tejada. His potential steroid use is not the problem. It's his current skill set. He moves poorly to his right, his arm is not what it once was, and he is 32. That's just not the guy I'd give up two of my top prospects and pay big money for.
I have a question, and its a serious one, even if it looks like its a baiting sort of thing. How many Orioles games have you watched in the last few years? Because you seem very very certain about Tejada's skill set and very detailed in your critiques of his defense. I'm wondering if maybe you have EI and watch the Orioles on a regular basis, or if this is based on the 15 games he's played against us in the last 3 years.

jabrch
08-07-2007, 11:43 AM
I have a question, and its a serious one, even if it looks like its a baiting sort of thing. How many Orioles games have you watched in the last few years? Because you seem very very certain about Tejada's skill set and very detailed in your critiques of his defense. I'm wondering if maybe you have EI and watch the Orioles on a regular basis, or if this is based on the 15 games he's played against us in the last 3 years.

I have the package, and see a few more games than just the 15 against us, but not enough that I would call myself an expert. My sample size is admittedly small. It is entirely possible that I am witnessing only his bad play. I guess at the same time, unless someone here is watching more Os games for some reason and has a different opinion.

It's a fair question Spiffe. No problems...

munchman33
08-07-2007, 12:43 PM
I didn't claim that he can't play SS. I said that he is no longer good defensively. Lots of guys can play SS - and just not do it well. I just flat out disagree with your statement as to where he ranks (top half) against others.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/defensive_rankings_by_position_al_aug_27/

Last year, Tejada, in all his decline, had an rs/150 of 0. That means, in terms of what is historically expected production of a shortstop defensively, over the course of 150 games he would save no more or lose no more runs on defense than the average defensive shortstop. If you look at the rs/150 of all the AL shortstops last year, he's bunched up with the bulk of the shortstops in the league defensive production-wise. Only four guys were noticably better. Four.

It should also be pointed out that Dye, whom a lot of you seem to prefer to return with Uribe instead of the Tejada option, was the WORST statistically defensive every day right fielder in the league last year. Last year. Before injuries hindered his movement.

jabrch
08-07-2007, 01:13 PM
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/defensive_rankings_by_position_al_aug_27/

Last year, Tejada, in all his decline, had an rs/150 of 0. That means, in terms of what is historically expected production of a shortstop defensively, over the course of 150 games he would save no more or lose no more runs on defense than the average defensive shortstop. If you look at the rs/150 of all the AL shortstops last year, he's bunched up with the bulk of the shortstops in the league defensive production-wise. Only four guys were noticably better. Four.

It should also be pointed out that Dye, whom a lot of you seem to prefer to return with Uribe instead of the Tejada option, was the WORST statistically defensive every day right fielder in the league last year. Last year. Before injuries hindered his movement.

I personally find defensive statistics to be close to worthless. I'm not sure how RS/150 is calculated, what it means, or what it has to do with anything. And to be totally honest with you, I don't care.

Under no circumstance would I give up two or our top prospects to have him for two years, at this point in his career, given what I have seen from him lately. No mathematically gyrated number is going to make me change my mind on that because I don't believe that there are any good ways to measure defensive proficiency.

Munch - would you give up Gio and Fields for him? How about DLS and Broadway?

I'm not saying he is a bad player, or he wouldn't be an improvement over Uribe. I am saying he's a below average defender and I wouldn't sell the farm for two years of him at this price given that he is at the age where guys tend to not play as effectively as they had in their prime.

We shouldn't get in the habit of buying teams out of the back end of their contracts for their veterans and giving them young talent in the process. We are already aged enough with our best offensive weapons.

Don't get me wrong - Tejada is a nice player, and would be an upgrade over Uribe. I just have a problem paying that price for him at this point in time.

munchman33
08-07-2007, 01:46 PM
I personally find defensive statistics to be close to worthless. I'm not sure how RS/150 is calculated, what it means, or what it has to do with anything. And to be totally honest with you, I don't care.

Under no circumstance would I give up two or our top prospects to have him for two years, at this point in his career, given what I have seen from him lately. No mathematically gyrated number is going to make me change my mind on that because I don't believe that there are any good ways to measure defensive proficiency.

Munch - would you give up Gio and Fields for him? How about DLS and Broadway?

I'm not saying he is a bad player, or he wouldn't be an improvement over Uribe. I am saying he's a below average defender and I wouldn't sell the farm for two years of him at this price given that he is at the age where guys tend to not play as effectively as they had in their prime.

We shouldn't get in the habit of buying teams out of the back end of their contracts for their veterans and giving them young talent in the process. We are already aged enough with our best offensive weapons.

Don't get me wrong - Tejada is a nice player, and would be an upgrade over Uribe. I just have a problem paying that price for him at this point in time.

You keep saying top prospects, like we have anyone like that. There isn't a guy in our system I would consider a "top prospect." The guys the organization toted as such have not panned out, sans Fields. And he CAN'T BE TRADED. This is a waiver deal we're talking about. Meaning anyone the Orioles wanted couldn't be on our 40 man roster. Otherwise, he'd have to clear waivers. They were likely looking at multiple decent prospects, with Gio being the basis for the trade. He's the only relatively high ceiling guy we have down there, and I would absolutely trade him in a heartbeat. Our rotation is fine. We've got five starters under contract next year, as well as Gavin Floyd. So if you have a chance to deal from a position of strength to upgrade your most glaring weakness, you do it.

DrewSox56
08-07-2007, 02:11 PM
We've got five starters under contract next year, as well as Gavin Floyd. So if you have a chance to deal from a position of strength to upgrade your most glaring weakness, you do it.

What we've got is 3 starters, a $10M/yr headcase we're obligated to if we can't move/straighten out for 2 more years, Danks (eh), and Gavin Floyd who has 1 quality major league start.

That non "top prospect" farm is insurance in case of injury for any of the above and/or a deal that moves JC.

Uribe is not the most glaring weakness; at least not one that requires a $13M+/yr. band-aid getting you nominal defensive change and another higher OBP, veteran base clogger with no speed.

And we still have BP problems.

munchman33
08-07-2007, 02:23 PM
What we've got is 3 starters, a $10M/yr headcase we're obligated to if we can't move/straighten out for 2 more years, Danks (eh), and Gavin Floyd who has 1 quality major league start.

That non "top prospect" farm is insurance in case of injury for any of the above and/or a deal that moves JC.

Uribe is not the most glaring weakness; at least not one that requires a $13M+/yr. band-aid getting you nominal defensive change and another higher OBP, veteran base clogger with no speed.

And we still have BP problems.

First people were up in arms over the prospect that Danks might have been in the deal (which he couldn't have been). Now they're saying he really isn't all that. But that some guy in the minor leagues, who hasn't shown all the positives that Danks has at the major league level, that guy is untradeable?

:rolleyes:

We're stuck with Contreras whether you want to be or not. He's our fifth starter next year. And even if he isn't, that makes Floyd the fifth starter. Because Floyd, unlike Gio or any of the other guys, has to make the team next year. He is out of options. So he's the long guy. Until Contreras is the long guy. Then Floyd's got no where to go but the rotation. And if someone gets hurt, you better believe there's no way Jose doesn't make a stink about being the guy put back in. And Ozzie and Kenny will cave. Because he's our fifth starter again in 2009.

Shortstop is a glaring weakness. We have the worst everyday position player in the majors in Uribe. We're also losing a run-producing, big time bat in JD in the offseason. And no, resigning him does not solve losing what we had. For all the talk about Tejada's fading skills, the fading skills of Jermaine Dye are three-fold more apparent. Tejada is likely to be significantly more productive than JD the next two years, and doing so from a position we desperately need an upgrade. Not to mention, there will be numerous internal and external options to replace JD in right, who'll be better than JD defensively, and better than Uribe offensively.

soxtalker
08-07-2007, 03:43 PM
Maybe I've missed something here, but for all the talk on this thread about what KW might have offered in exchange for Tejada, he may very well have offered nothing. The comments I've seen from KW are very low on information.

Uribe is an issue, but he's not as big a problem as his predecessor. I'd just as soon see a Richar-like move -- picking a virtual unknown from another team's system.

BadBobbyJenks
08-07-2007, 07:23 PM
Shortstop is a glaring weakness. We have the worst everyday position player in the majors in Uribe. We're also losing a run-producing, big time bat in JD in the offseason. And no, resigning him does not solve losing what we had. For all the talk about Tejada's fading skills, the fading skills of Jermaine Dye are three-fold more apparent. Tejada is likely to be significantly more productive than JD the next two years, and doing so from a position we desperately need an upgrade. Not to mention, there will be numerous internal and external options to replace JD in right, who'll be better than JD defensively, and better than Uribe offensively.



Agree completely. Anyone who is hell bent on keeping dye but is killing tejada for his "fading" skills needs to take the blinders off.

2005 304 26 homers 98 ribbies obp 349 162 games played 972 fielding percentage
2006 330 24 homers 100 ribbies obp 379 162 games played 971 fielding percentage

Tragg
08-07-2007, 11:33 PM
I'd much rather have Uribe, 8-10mm and our top prospects instead of Tejada.
I agree. Plus, the Sox just (well 2 years ago) gave away a player with a big contract for about 1/2 the talent in return in order to free themselves of the contract; now the Sox are doing the opposite?

Nor should the Sox spend any money on Eckstein...he's a poor defender and another slap hitter (really no better offensively than Uribe) - the Sox need fewer hackers, not more.

JorgeFabregas
08-08-2007, 01:12 AM
Depends what prospects. So far our top tier prospects look pretty avg. The Sox could send Fields to Baltimore and move Tejada to 3rd if that would make everyone happy about the defensive side of things. That way when we sign A-rod, he can move back to SS. I'm thinking:

Pods
Tejada
Thome
A-Rod
PK
Dye
Erstad
AJ
Richar


And I'm joking. But still, win now is the plan. We have Thome, Konerko, and Dye with a good catcher and good pitching that is soon to crumble a bit. If Kenny wants to give himself the best chance to win now, Tejada would look pretty darn good at SS or 3B for this team. There's not too many prospects I'd be missing if Tejada came in the deal. So far, noone looks like they are a future Tejada.
Moving Tejada to third would eliminate what makes him a very valuable player. Shortstops that can consistently post an OPS over .800 are in the top tier or two. Third basemen who consistently OPS over .800 are very common. Tejada's OPS isn't much higher than Fields' this year. Fields will be entering his prime in the next couple years, while Tejada will likely be leaving his.

balke
08-08-2007, 01:36 AM
Moving Tejada to third would eliminate what makes him a very valuable player. Shortstops that can consistently post an OPS over .800 are in the top tier or two. Third basemen who consistently OPS over .800 are very common. Tejada's OPS isn't much higher than Fields' this year. Fields will be entering his prime in the next couple years, while Tejada will likely be leaving his.

OPS. is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about an all-around SS who the Sox could move to 3B if need be. I'd be more impressed by his .300 avg. and .340+ OBP. I don't care what anybody here says, if you don't want Miguel Tejada on your team you are smoking drugs. Without raising a SS on your farm or paying 25 Mil for A-Rod, you WILL NOT acquire a better SS. 13 mil, subtract Uribe's 5 MIL, and you've got one heck of a deal. Juan, I love your D, but I'll take Miguel Tejada any day of the freaking week. Win now, pay later. I'm looking at an old team all around that needs to squeeze out a championship, not deal with a SS with a .266 OBP!!!!


Shut up with the defense. Miguel Tejada is infinitely better all around than Juan.

P.S. Fields is on the 40-man roster so that whole idea is moot anyways. Take Gio, please. He's been traded once already.

PennStater98r
08-08-2007, 02:13 AM
IMO - the only reason you DON'T make the deal happen to bring Tejada over to play SS is because you plan on doing everything in your power to bring A-Rod to the Southside to play Short.

Let's face it, the problems this team have faced have little to do with balls being hit Uribe's way - and not because of Uribe's D. The problem is with balls being hit to Minoso, Fisk and Pierce. The problem is with balls that the bats never touch - in fact the bats don't move from their shoulder b/c we were walking guys late.

I'll take a Downgrade in D (unless we're holding out for A-Rod) to get Tejada production in at Short so that we can have superior D in the OF and lose a little of our production there - not a blackhole loss of production like with Anderson - but a decrease afforded by a .900+ OPS guy at Short.

As an all around package, Juan Uribe is the worst shortstop in MLB. I'd take Mike Caruso over him at this point. At least Caruso didn't hot-dog basket catches in foul territory and drop the ball.

JorgeFabregas
08-08-2007, 08:32 PM
OPS. is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about an all-around SS who the Sox could move to 3B if need be. I'd be more impressed by his .300 avg. and .340+ OBP. I don't care what anybody here says, if you don't want Miguel Tejada on your team you are smoking drugs. Without raising a SS on your farm or paying 25 Mil for A-Rod, you WILL NOT acquire a better SS. 13 mil, subtract Uribe's 5 MIL, and you've got one heck of a deal. Juan, I love your D, but I'll take Miguel Tejada any day of the freaking week. Win now, pay later. I'm looking at an old team all around that needs to squeeze out a championship, not deal with a SS with a .266 OBP!!!!


Shut up with the defense. Miguel Tejada is infinitely better all around than Juan.

P.S. Fields is on the 40-man roster so that whole idea is moot anyways. Take Gio, please. He's been traded once already.
I'd love to have to Tejada as SS. He'd be overpaid as a 3B.

Tragg
08-09-2007, 12:34 AM
I'll take a Downgrade in D (unless we're holding out for A-Rod) to get Tejada production in at Short so that we can have superior D in the OF and lose a little of our production there - not a blackhole loss of production like with Anderson - but a decrease afforded by a .900+ OPS guy at Short.

As an all around package, Juan Uribe is the worst shortstop in MLB. If Uribe isn't up to spiff, we could find a good field no hit SS cheap. So that's not really an issue. And if his D is bad, he's useless...BUT offensively he's at least as good as the hackers the Sox have endured all too often who have, say, a .320 obp with no power.
What is this superior D in the outfield that you are talking about? Dye, Owens and Pods are all average or below defensively. In all, that's a bad defensive outfield.
If we spend $12 million on a SS who can't field, where is the money to improve the outfield defense?

Last year, Ozzie had to have another one of his hackers in the lineup and the result was an increase in offense and a devastation of defense. It failed. Tejada certainly isn't a hacker, but his defense isn't up to spiff. We invest all of this money on pitching only to support it with a poor defensive team.
Tejada may be worth $12 million IF he could play a top flight shortstop and hit like he hits. But he can't. And just as a hitter, he's worth nowhere near $12 million.

jabrch
08-09-2007, 12:39 AM
And just as a hitter, he's worth nowhere near $12 million.

I would actually give Tejada that money for the 2 years he has left. I wouldn't give up any of our top prospects for him at this point in his career.

Tragg
08-09-2007, 12:43 AM
I would actually give Tejada that money for the 2 years he has left. I wouldn't give up any of our top prospects for him at this point in his career.
Okay - sort of us on the other side of a Carlos Lee trade...get him and take his salary, but not provide equal value in return.
I don't like the idea of bad up the middle defense.

balke
08-09-2007, 12:49 AM
What is this superior D in the outfield that you are talking about? Dye, Owens and Pods are all average or below defensively. In all, that's a bad defensive outfield.
Tejada certainly isn't a hacker, but his defense isn't up to spiff. We invest all of this money on pitching only to support it with a poor defensive team.


Jermaine Dye is an awesome RFer defensively. He's been slower this season, but coming in I didn't hear a single person whining about his D. He's got a lot of range, even if he doesn't move that fast. He gets great jumps on the ball, and the arm is awesome. I don't remember the last time he made a bad throw, other than when he's being aggressive trying to pick-off a runner at 1B.

Erstad and Anderson started on the roster this season, that's pretty good defensively in CF, and Pods has a horrible arm and glove, but plus range for a LFer.

So this whole invest the money on everything but D crap is a load of malarkey. The Defense in the outfield was set-up to be pretty good. The Sox built a team, not an OF.

Tejada's D is up to snuff and spiff, and his bat is as valuable as JD's or Konerko's. If the Sox get a player like that in the lineup, and things don't work out, then they could trade off for all kinds of prospects. Getting Tejada is a huge plus, though I like Juan's glove.

munchman33
08-09-2007, 01:08 AM
Jermaine Dye is an awesome RFer defensively. He's been slower this season, but coming in I didn't hear a single person whining about his D. He's got a lot of range, even if he doesn't move that fast. He gets great jumps on the ball, and the arm is awesome. I don't remember the last time he made a bad throw, other than when he's being aggressive trying to pick-off a runner at 1B.



Jermaine's strong arm has propogated the myth that he's a good defender. Check out that link I posted earlier. Of all everyday RF last year, Dye was the worst defensively. And he had the worst range factor.

Just because noone had complained about it doesn't mean it wasn't there. People were just willing to live with it, especially the way he played offensively last year.

jabrch
08-09-2007, 10:19 AM
Okay - sort of us on the other side of a Carlos Lee trade...get him and take his salary, but not provide equal value in return.
I don't like the idea of bad up the middle defense.

I don't either - it's not my favorite way to build a team. But I wouldn't pass up on his offensive potential, if the cost was low enough.

rdivaldi
08-09-2007, 10:26 AM
he had the worst range factor.

"Range factor" is a meaningless statistic and is "Zone rating". No scout or analyst worth a damn looks at that stuff.

munchman33
08-09-2007, 10:42 AM
"Range factor" is a meaningless statistic and is "Zone rating". No scout or analyst worth a damn looks at that stuff.

Okay. How about Jermaine is not only slower than all other everyday rightfielders, but he also got to less balls than any other everyday rightfielder. So any "great read" ability he might have had didn't help him get to enough balls to compensate for his inadequacies.

How about that?

Seriously, I understand how sometimes statistics can be manipulated. But some people treat all statistics with extreme skepticism, when most statistics are there to only tell you the obvious.

Flight #24
08-09-2007, 12:33 PM
IMO, the best part of this (and one I haven't noticed being mentioned) is that if true, the Sox are committed to maintaining or increasing payroll for 2008. Even if they dealt Contreras in the deal, it adds another big salary and a veteran, meaning they'd be going for it again rather than retrenching. Hopefully that means it wouldn't be 3-4 aging players (Thome, Konerko, AJ, Tejada) with young, unproven guys all around them (i.e. the all-youth OF).

Also, if they can dump Jose on someone via him pitching well and them trading him for whatever they can get in the offseason, that would indicate that they have some $$ to spend.

Tragg
08-09-2007, 01:26 PM
Jermaine Dye is an awesome RFer defensively. He's been slower this season, but coming in I didn't hear a single person whining about his D. He's got a lot of range, even if he doesn't move that fast. He gets great jumps on the ball, and the arm is awesome. I don't remember the last time he made a bad throw, other than when he's being aggressive trying to pick-off a runner at 1B.

Erstad and Anderson started on the roster this season, that's pretty good defensively in CF, and Pods has a horrible arm and glove, but plus range for a LFer.

So this whole invest the money on everything but D crap is a load of malarkey. The Defense in the outfield was set-up to be pretty good. The Sox built a team, not an OF.

Tejada's D is up to snuff and spiff, and his bat is as valuable as JD's or Konerko's. If the Sox get a player like that in the lineup, and things don't work out, then they could trade off for all kinds of prospects. Getting Tejada is a huge plus, though I like Juan's glove.
They could never trade Tejada for "all kinds of prospects". How many times have we heard that with other players? I know he's a rent, but Dye barely yielded a B prospect. And I certainly hope we don't give up a single top prospect for Tejada...let's give them a Pods and get the Lee talent back.

I'm talking about defense now and looking forward. You guys see Dye every day, but when I'm seeing him he's stumbling (his arm is still excellent). Yes, Anderson's a great defender; he hasn't been on this roster since May, and with Ozzie as manager, well, we'll see on Anderson.
Erstad can cover CF, but has a week arm... hopefully we've learned the lesson on veteran hackers in the lineup. Pods can cover but has no arm; same with Owens. There's not a complete defender in the outfield. There's no way it can be described as any better than adequate.

Now, my #1 get would be a young outfielder - that what's worth trading top prospects for (versus 32 year old hittes) but we'll see.

Lip Man 1
08-09-2007, 02:10 PM
Given the Pirates situation I wonder if Jason Bey would be available?

Lip

jabrch
08-09-2007, 02:25 PM
Given the Pirates situation I wonder if Jason Bey would be available?

Lip

I couldn't envision him passing all the way through the NL waivers.

balke
08-09-2007, 02:48 PM
I'm talking about defense now and looking forward. You guys see Dye every day, but when I'm seeing him he's stumbling (his arm is still excellent). Yes, Anderson's a great defender; he hasn't been on this roster since May, and with Ozzie as manager, well, we'll see on Anderson.
Erstad can cover CF, but has a week arm... hopefully we've learned the lesson on veteran hackers in the lineup. Pods can cover but has no arm; same with Owens. There's not a complete defender in the outfield. There's no way it can be described as any better than adequate.

Now, my #1 get would be a young outfielder - that what's worth trading top prospects for (versus 32 year old hittes) but we'll see.

I agree now the D looks a little lagging with Dye's speed, and Owens' Jumps but the original point that I replied to is that Kenny spent all his money on bad defense which isn't true. Good defense was here. Erstad was looking good in the field, and his back-up was only on the roster because his D is awesome.

I am personally content with the entire team. Injuries happen, and will happen again. If the Sox brought this team back I think they'd be the best in the division, as Fields will be playing a bit of LF next season, and Crede will have someone to rest his back while he recovers from back surgery, and probably won't be able to make every start initially. Erstad will get hurt again all next season, but Owens will be filling in. I like the Power RFer in Dye, and think his arm makes him worth keeping around, and Pods... I don't know how he does it but we win with the guy everytime he's on the roster. Even last night it looked like he was going to be the hero, as he got into second late in the game, waiting to score on a single.

Ozuna Richar and Gonzalez can play 2B, and Uribe's D would be nice to keep on the team if Tejada can't be had. All I really want for X-mas is a solid reliever (Unless Contreras finds finds he enjoys the role and stays put), and for this team to take off the bandages for next season.

They are looking really good right now healthy. IF only... if only.

jabrch
08-09-2007, 02:52 PM
They are looking really good right now healthy. IF only... if only.

I agree. Minor tweaks would be nice - but this team was pretty well conceived - too many injuries at the same time as the bullpen completely collapsing killed us.

palehozenychicty
08-09-2007, 03:22 PM
I agree now the D looks a little lagging with Dye's speed, and Owens' Jumps but the original point that I replied to is that Kenny spent all his money on bad defense which isn't true. Good defense was here. Erstad was looking good in the field, and his back-up was only on the roster because his D is awesome.

I am personally content with the entire team. Injuries happen, and will happen again. If the Sox brought this team back I think they'd be the best in the division, as Fields will be playing a bit of LF next season, and Crede will have someone to rest his back while he recovers from back surgery, and probably won't be able to make every start initially. Erstad will get hurt again all next season, but Owens will be filling in. I like the Power RFer in Dye, and think his arm makes him worth keeping around, and Pods... I don't know how he does it but we win with the guy everytime he's on the roster. Even last night it looked like he was going to be the hero, as he got into second late in the game, waiting to score on a single.

Ozuna Richar and Gonzalez can play 2B, and Uribe's D would be nice to keep on the team if Tejada can't be had. All I really want for X-mas is a solid reliever (Unless Contreras finds finds he enjoys the role and stays put), and for this team to take off the bandages for next season.

They are looking really good right now healthy. IF only... if only.


They had a similar team in '06 and fell apart in the end. Not making the playoffs last year was inexcuseable enough. The same things happened this year. Folks, this team needs surgery.

jabrch
08-09-2007, 03:26 PM
They had a similar team in '06 and fell apart in the end. Not making the playoffs last year was inexcuseable enough.

They won 90 games last year - that's pretty solid.

Lip Man 1
08-09-2007, 03:48 PM
Jab:

I was talking about an off season deal.

Lip

balke
08-09-2007, 03:49 PM
They won 90 games last year - that's pretty solid.

And they've brought up some players that add a different dimension to the team. The Sox can put in a better hitting, quicker 3Bman, or the solid defender who's clutch next season. This team at this point in the season has a lot more speed than they did last season, or at the beginning of this season with Fields, Richar, and Owens.

Let's not forget that they acquired Toby Hall in the offseason, and now that he's healthy he's looking good out there. I like this team, and think Konerko and Dye learned valuable lessons for next season. I think this team will explode out of the gates next year.

Mohoney
08-10-2007, 01:25 AM
would any of you trade Garland for Tejada

Not for Tejada, but maybe for Renteria.

Tragg
08-10-2007, 10:57 AM
They won 90 games last year - that's pretty solid.
The Sox were a below .500 team in the 2nd 1/2 last year, a trend that has continued into this year. (aided by some dubious personnel choices).

Tejada, Renteria...top priced veterans at the peak of their prime (if not past it). None of it comes cheap - top talent must be exchanged and the salaries are high.
How about some young talent or talent coming into its prime? Especially if we're going to trade a starting pitcher or a top prospect.

munchman33
08-10-2007, 11:01 AM
How about some young talent or talent coming into its prime? Especially if we're going to trade a starting pitcher or a top prospect.

It does't seem that that's the way the league is going. Nowadays, top prospects and young talent aren't available. The only way you're getting young talent is if you give up young talent. Like what Kenny did to get Richar.

jabrch
08-10-2007, 11:57 PM
Jab:

I was talking about an off season deal.

Lip

Ok - in that case, I still doubt it - he's their "face of the franchise". That said, I'd be thrilled to see us get him

jabrch
08-11-2007, 12:17 AM
The Sox were a below .500 team in the 2nd 1/2 last year, a trend that has continued into this year. (aided by some dubious personnel choices).

If it was the same problem last year in the second half, then this year in the first half, then you might be on to something. But it isn't.

Last year's second half was the result of bad SP - our SPs had an ERA of a half run more in the second half than in the first half. This year, our SP has been worlds better, and in the first half our problem was hitters who we expected to hit who didn't (Don't tell me anyone was predicting PK/JD/JC to all hit under .230 (or reasonably close to it) up to the break.) and a bullpen where nearly everyone collapsed. Had just one or two of the guys in the pen delivered, we'd be right in the thick of things.

This is a good team. They can pitch. They can hit for average. They can hit for power. We are seeing it now. It's a shame it didn't happen for 6 weeks in the early part of the summer.