PDA

View Full Version : Pirates Woes


Lip Man 1
08-05-2007, 01:25 PM
Nice story on the last 15 seasons with the Pirates from a historical standpoint..also explains why they have kept on losing.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/497930,051SPT5.article

Lip

Irishsox1
08-05-2007, 01:47 PM
Wakefield? Are you kidding me? Nobody is losing sleep in Pittsburg because of Wakefield. Losing Bonds, bad GM moves and cheap owners are usually the culprits.

DoItForDanPasqua
08-05-2007, 01:51 PM
Forget Bonds and Wakefield. They will long be plagued by "The Curse of Todd Ritchie."

FedEx227
08-05-2007, 01:53 PM
How about the fact that they haven't made a decent trade in years? (Outside of LaRoche for Mike Gonzalez).

I mean look at this year... Matt Morris?! Are you kidding me?

Also the infamous 2003 Aramis/Lofton deals.

munchman33
08-05-2007, 02:15 PM
The Pirates problems are beyond payroll issues. Their talent evaluation, at every level, has been rather suspect. Plenty of teams compete with limited resources.

eastchicagosoxfan
08-05-2007, 02:33 PM
The Pirates are similiar to the O's. Over a twenty year span, the Pirates won three World Series titles ( 60, 71, and 79 ) while the O's won their three from '66 to '83, with one in '70. While the Pirates had several good years with Bonds, and the O's had several decent seasons with Ripken, both teams have seemingly forgotten how to build through their minor league system.

jabrch
08-05-2007, 02:37 PM
It is very hard to play by the rules and build a winning team with a payroll as small as Pittsburgh has. That said, they have made reasonable efforts in a few trades that just did not ever pay off.

Since 1995, 12 of their 14 first round picks have been top 11. Of them, only Benson has amounted to what you'd want from a first round pick, and he was taken #1 overall. What ever happened to Bullington? He was supposed to be the saviour a few years ago.

It's a shame because that is such a great park, the team has such great (although not many) fans, and it is such an awesome blue collar city - they deserve better.

California Sox
08-05-2007, 02:40 PM
The Pirates problems are beyond payroll issues. Their talent evaluation, at every level, has been rather suspect. Plenty of teams compete with limited resources.

Absolutely. They've had a combination of being terrible but not quite terrible enough to get a top pick and when they are picking in the top 5, it's either a bad year for talent or they simply muff it. Look at who they've drafted with very high picks:

2001: John Van Benschoten NCAA HR leader, they convert him to pitcher, he's just making it to the majors now. (not a great first round but A's got both Crosby and Bonderman)

2002: 1st pick of the draft took Bryan Bullington, a one-year wonder, for signability reasons. Could have had BJ Upton or Prince Fielder.

2003: 8th pick took Paul Maholm. Could have had Danks, Lastings Milledge.

2004: Neil Walker. He's starting to hit better, but had to quit catching. Could have spent some money for Jared Weaver or Stephen Drew or taken Billy Butler, Philip Hughes, or Josh Fields.

2005: Andrew McCutcheon. In the year of the high school outfielder, the Pirates grabbed one, but the rawest of them. Jay Bruce is going to wear them out in the Central as a reminder that's who they should have taken.

2006: In a great and deep draft they just got unlucky choosing Brad Lincoln who almost immediately had to get major arm surgery. Could have had Andrew Miller, Clayton Kershaw, Linecum, Chris Marrero...

2007: Daniel Moskos. A lefthanded reliever with the 4th pick of the draft? Too early to tell but doesn't seem like the sort of guy you build a franchise around.

eastchicagosoxfan
08-05-2007, 03:39 PM
Absolutely. They've had a combination of being terrible but not quite terrible enough to get a top pick and when they are picking in the top 5, it's either a bad year for talent or they simply muff it. Look at who they've drafted with very high picks:

2001: John Van Benschoten NCAA HR leader, they convert him to pitcher, he's just making it to the majors now. (not a great first round but A's got both Crosby and Bonderman)

2002: 1st pick of the draft took Bryan Bullington, a one-year wonder, for signability reasons. Could have had BJ Upton or Prince Fielder.

2003: 8th pick took Paul Maholm. Could have had Danks, Lastings Milledge.

2004: Neil Walker. He's starting to hit better, but had to quit catching. Could have spent some money for Jared Weaver or Stephen Drew or taken Billy Butler, Philip Hughes, or Josh Fields.

2005: Andrew McCutcheon. In the year of the high school outfielder, the Pirates grabbed one, but the rawest of them. Jay Bruce is going to wear them out in the Central as a reminder that's who they should have taken.

2006: In a great and deep draft they just got unlucky choosing Brad Lincoln who almost immediately had to get major arm surgery. Could have had Andrew Miller, Clayton Kershaw, Linecum, Chris Marrero...

2007: Daniel Moskos. A lefthanded reliever with the 4th pick of the draft? Too early to tell but doesn't seem like the sort of guy you build a franchise around.
Any team except the Yankees, who simply buy their way out of bad drafts, could be singled out for woulda, coulda, shoulda's. Over 20 teams passed on Roger Clemens. The Pirates have failed to develop guys, andthat's been coupled with bad luck.
In the 1998 draft, they busted on their first 17 picks, and had three guys get some MLB playing time.
The 1999 draft has three guys with MLB experience, and none of them produce much.
In 2000 they drafted Chris Young, now of the Padres, and very successful. The Pirates traded him for Matt Herges of the Expos. Herges never pitched for the Pirates. In fact, he never pitched peroid.
Or how about this move. They draft Jose Bautista, but fail to protect him, an the O's make him a rule 5 selection. A coule of years later, the Pirates turn around and trade Kris Benson ( and his wife ) long with Jeff Kepinger, to the Mets for....Jose Bautista.

The Pirates don't seem to have a clue.

palehozenychicty
08-05-2007, 03:41 PM
Any team except the Yankees, who simply buy their way out of bad drafts, could be singled out for woulda, coulda, shoulda's. Over 20 teams passed on Roger Clemens. The Pirates have failed to develop guys, andthat's been coupled with bad luck.
In the 1998 draft, they busted on their first 17 picks, and had three guys get some MLB playing time.
The 1999 draft has three guys with MLB experience, and none of them produce much.
In 2000 they drafted Chris Young, now of the Padres, and very successful. The Pirates traded him for Matt Herges of the Expos. Herges never pitched for the Pirates. In fact, he never pitched peroid.
Or how about this move. They draft Jose Bautista, but fail to protect him, an the O's make him a rule 5 selection. A coule of years later, the Pirates turn around and trade Kris Benson ( and his wife ) long with Jeff Kepinger, to the Mets for....Jose Bautista.

The Pirates don't seem to have a clue.

That is why they have fallen off. The ownership doesn't care, nor does anyone else.

California Sox
08-05-2007, 04:03 PM
Any team except the Yankees, who simply buy their way out of bad drafts, could be singled out for woulda, coulda, shoulda's. Over 20 teams passed on Roger Clemens.

Obviously the draft is not an exact science, but the fact is some teams are better at evaluating amateur talent than others. Your argument seems to be the whole thing is a crapshoot and no one should be held responsible for poor drafting.

What's the difference between the Twins and the Pirates? I would argue scouting. The Twins consistently evaluate talent, both amateur and professional, as well as any team in the game. The Pirates are in the lower third. How Littlefield has not lost his job at this point is beyond me.

eastchicagosoxfan
08-05-2007, 04:35 PM
Obviously the draft is not an exact science, but the fact is some teams are better at evaluating amateur talent than others. Your argument seems to be the whole thing is a crapshoot and no one should be held responsible for poor drafting.

What's the difference between the Twins and the Pirates? I would argue scouting. The Twins consistently evaluate talent, both amateur and professional, as well as any team in the game. The Pirates are in the lower third. How Littlefield has not lost his job at this point is beyond me.

The draft is one thing, but developing the guys drafted is another. The Pirates draft, but don't develop. The Twins are often looked as a bunch of over-achievers ( grinders ) but is that the draft, or the system?

I think in many aspects the draft is a crapshoot. Over a five year period, a team drafts 200 players, plus free agents, maybe 250 players. These are young guys, often 18 years old. Their maturity level is suspct. The same goes for college guys. The organization can draft, but that same organization must develop the talent. Every guy drafted was a great player wherever he was at.

Brian26
08-05-2007, 07:15 PM
Forget Bonds and Wakefield. They will long be plagued by "The Curse of Todd Ritchie."

Forget that. Sid Bream and Francisco Cabrera killed the Pirates franchise. Who knows what they could have done in the World Series.

Railsplitter
08-05-2007, 10:06 PM
I sometimes wonder if teams like Pittsburgh and Kansas City might benefit from community ownership. I realize they are two different sports, but community ownership has worked fairly well in Green Bay.

Viva Medias B's
08-05-2007, 10:48 PM
I sometimes wonder if teams like Pittsburgh and Kansas City might benefit from community ownership. I realize they are two different sports, but community ownership has worked fairly well in Green Bay.

What has also worked in Green Bay is hard revenue sharing, which does not exist in Major League Baseball.

TDog
08-05-2007, 11:23 PM
What has also worked in Green Bay is hard revenue sharing, which does not exist in Major League Baseball.

When I lived in Wisconsin, people told me the whole community-ownership thing with the Packers is something of a myth. The community doesn't have anything to do with the team's decision making and they don't shell out big money for contracts.

HotelWhiteSox
08-06-2007, 02:22 PM
Matt Morris is mind boggling. I know we were all dumbstruck when they gave away Aramis Ramirez (and I think Lofton) for nothing

I wonder if teams went for Marte? 1.30 ERA and no runs allowed since June

PatK
08-06-2007, 03:07 PM
The problem is that they have an ownership which looks at the bottom line.

It's more profitable for them to field a crappy team on the cheap than spend money for a successful one.

soxinem1
08-06-2007, 03:34 PM
Forget that. Sid Bream and Francisco Cabrera killed the Pirates franchise. Who knows what they could have done in the World Series.

Hey, they let Sid go to ATL as a FA.

I think that both trades, dumb signings (Derek Bell, Jason Kendall), and lack of development have killed this franchise.

The last couple years I thought they might sneak up on a few people, but they have not.

I tell my Little Leaguers that the Orioles, Royals, and Pirates used to be annual contenders, and they look at me like I am spreaking French. All three teams have similar problems, and only KC seems to have a little of the rust falling off the wheels. But how often have we seen that happen.

This franchise needs a committed owner, a shrewd GM, and an excellent farm system makeup (ala MIN) to make it back.

It wasn't long ago that DET was in this predicament, and now look. They are putting their own players in MLB, and signed a few FA's that made a difference (IRod, Rogers) in a short time.

PIT needs a GM like Dave Dombrowski, Omar Minaya, or Terry Ryan. All of them kknow talent and make excellent aqusitions. I believe DD would turn this franchise into winners within 2-3 seasons, easilly. TR would get the farm producing players who know how to play or they are out. None of them would have made a dumb trade like getting Matt Morris, or sign Kendall and DBell to stupid contracts.

That Kendall contract alone crippled PIT for years. And now that they are done with it after this seaosn, they add Morris. We'd have probably given them Contreras and paid them $$$ to take him.

If I was them, I'd start by stealing Rick Hahn from the White Sox, and go from there.