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JungleJimR
07-27-2007, 01:41 PM
In support of those who see the vagaries of configuring a BP and who advise patience -

I'm sure some of us have noticed this year's stats of some rejected Sox relievers:

Vizcaino, Yankees, 8-2, 53 innings, 2 Blown saves

Riske, Royals, 2.31 ERA, 1 Blown save

Chad Bradford, Orioles, 2.90 ERA, 2 BS

And would you believe?:

Damasco Marte, Pirates, 1.48 ERA, 10 holds, 0 BS!!

pdr
07-27-2007, 02:43 PM
Shingo Takatsu - out of the league.
Dustin Hermanson - released by the Reds.
Cliff Politte - released by the Indians.
Neal Cotts - in the Cubs' minor league system somewhere.
Roberto Hernandez - released by the Indians.

oeo
07-27-2007, 02:48 PM
Vizcaino, Yankees, 8-2, 53 innings, 2 Blown saves

He wasn't 'rejected.' We just used him in a trade. The guy was very solid for us.

Riske, Royals, 2.31 ERA, 1 Blown saveRiske still blows.

Chad Bradford, Orioles, 2.90 ERA, 2 BSSeven years, ago, buddy.

And would you believe?:

Damasco Marte, Pirates, 1.48 ERA, 10 holds, 0 BS!!Yes, I would believe it. The guy was simply awesome for us until 2005. There were bigger problems with him, though, besides that he was sucking. Marte was actually very good for us in 2005, as well, until about August when he completely lost it.

southside rocks
07-27-2007, 05:07 PM
No offense to the OP, but this reminded me of a fan I overheard at yesterdays' game, telling his friends about every good player that the Sox once had who is no longer with the team. He started with Maggs, went on to Rowand, Carlos Lee -- he never once mentioned WHY the Sox let any of them go or what they got in return, if anything. He was just convinced that all of those players would be having tremendous success as members of the 2007 Sox and it was KW's fault for not realizing that years ago!

Hindsight is brillliant, I win every time when I pick last week's lottery numbers.

TDog
07-28-2007, 02:08 AM
And Alan Embree, who appeared at the end of his career with the 2001 White Sox with an ERA over 5, has a 3.74 ERA with the A's. He has been an important part of their bullpen, picking up 11 saves.

People here complained about Marte in 2005. They complained about Vizcaino. You go out and build a bullpen. Good luck. Earlier this month, people were complaining about Bobby Jenks.

If anyone is wondering about Jenks' stats this year, he is three games behind Bobby Thigpen's 57-save pace. Putz and (incredibly enough) Borowski also have 29 saves. Thigpen had 32 saves on July 27, 1990. The Sox had played 94 games at that date in 1990. Francisco Cordero has 32 saves, and the Brewers have played just 93 games.

Thigpen had blown four games though July 1990. I'm not getting excited about Jenks (or Borowski or Cordero) challenging Thigpen's record. Thigpen had 45 saves and six blown saves through August. He was perfect in save opportunities in September, but allowed an inherited runner to score in his only October appearance, the last game of the season regular season, for a blown save.

Note too that there are people here who aren't sure if the white Sox can pick up the additional 28 wins that would put Jenks in a position to get 57 saves.

Frater Perdurabo
07-28-2007, 08:01 AM
And Alan Embree, who appeared at the end of his career with the 2001 White Sox with an ERA over 5, has a 3.74 ERA with the A's. He has been an important part of their bullpen, picking up 11 saves.

People here complained about Marte in 2005. They complained about Vizcaino. You go out and build a bullpen. Good luck. Earlier this month, people were complaining about Bobby Jenks.

If anyone is wondering about Jenks' stats this year, he is three games behind Bobby Thigpen's 57-save pace....

Note too that there are people here who aren't sure if the white Sox can pick up the additional 28 wins that would put Jenks in a position to get 57 saves.

Thanks for the info on Jenks. It would be a nice "surprise" if Jenks could break Thigpen's mark. I hope Jenks doesn't burn out like Thigpen, though.

Regarding Embree - I'm always suspicious of ERAs put up by pitchers who play home games in Oakland, where that massive foul territory really hurts hitters and helps pitchers.

Tragg
07-28-2007, 09:45 AM
Thanks for the info on Jenks. It would be a nice "surprise" if Jenks could break Thigpen's mark. I hope Jenks doesn't burn out like Thigpen, though.

Don't you think that's why he burnt out? Thigpen was way overused that year.
I know our pen's a problem, but there's no point in coming close to overusing Jenks this season...we're probably using him too much right now.

Frater Perdurabo
07-28-2007, 10:42 AM
Don't you think that's why he burnt out? Thigpen was way overused that year. I know our pen's a problem, but there's no point in coming close to overusing Jenks this season...we're probably using him too much right now.

I read Lip's interview with Donn Pall (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2113). Here's Lip's question and Pall's reply on that very issue (For brevity, I've edited the parts of the question and answer that didn't relate to Thigpen, but rather to Jeff Torborg):

ML: ...I had heard that some members of the Sox upper organization felt that Jeff ruined Bobby Thigpen... Is that true?

DP: "I never heard that....

"Bobbys trouble and I know the coaches told him about this many times, was that even if he was loose and ready, hed keep throwing in the bullpen. If it was the last of the 8th and Bobby knew hed be going in the next inning, hed loosen up, but if the Sox had a long inning or scored three or four runs, Bobby would keep throwing! He wouldnt stop... I guess he was bullheaded that way. Bobby threw three times longer then he needed to and thats what wore him out." ...

I don't think 65 or so appearances in a season is going to kill Jenks' arm.

Of course, Ozzie shouldn't go out of his way to use Jenks just to give him a shot at the record.

But if it happens, it will be a highlight we can celebrate this year (along with Buehrle's no-no and Thome hitting his 500th at some point) to take away some of the sting of the disappointment.

HawkDJ
07-28-2007, 11:01 AM
Valid point on the ex relievers. But consider who we got in return for these guys.

Chad Bradford- We got Miguel Olivo which allowed us to trade for Freddy Garcia and win a World Series. (And now we got Gavin Floyd whooo!)

Luis Vizcaino- A controversial trade at first but now we have Vazquez pitching great for us.

David Riske- Well this is interesting because not only is Riske pitching well but so is Javier Lopez who we traded to get Riske.

Damaso Marte- We got Mackowiak, who has been pretty good for us despite being forced to start in center for a while. I think Marte's time was up for the Sox anyway.

TDog
07-28-2007, 09:53 PM
Don't you think that's why he burnt out? Thigpen was way overused that year.
I know our pen's a problem, but there's no point in coming close to overusing Jenks this season...we're probably using him too much right now.

I don't know that Thigpen was overused that year. I do believe that going to Japan during to tour with the American big leaguers after the season couldn't have helped.

I would be happy for Bobby Thigpen's record never to be broken. I liked Bobby Thigpen, and it's nice he has a slice of immortality to hang to. I understand, though, a lot of people who post around here are too young to remember him, though.

JungleJimR
07-29-2007, 02:30 PM
Shingo Takatsu - out of the league.
Dustin Hermanson - released by the Reds.
Cliff Politte - released by the Indians.
Neal Cotts - in the Cubs' minor league system somewhere.
Roberto Hernandez - released by the Indians.

Exactly to the point of this thread - we kept Dustin, Cliff and Neal after the 2005 season and moved Vizcaino and Marte - I, along with most Sox fans, would have made the same moves - thats why it is such a crapshoot!

JungleJimR
07-29-2007, 02:40 PM
No offense to the OP, but this reminded me of a fan I overheard at yesterdays' game, .......
Hindsight is brillliant, I win every time when I pick last week's lottery numbers.

Its not with hindsight, but with humility that I made the thread statement- we all would have made the same moves after the 2005 season - that's why confirguring a bullpen is so iffy and damned if you do.

And real nice reference, guy - nice and insulting, and stigmatizing.

southside rocks
07-29-2007, 05:06 PM
Its not with hindsight, but with humility that I made the thread statement- we all would have made the same moves after the 2005 season - that's why confirguring a bullpen is so iffy and damned if you do.

And real nice reference, guy - nice and insulting, and stigmatizing.

I think you may have taken my post a little -- a lot -- more personally than it was intended. Sorry if you read it that way.

And FWIW, I'm not a guy, I'm of the female persuasion. Have a nice day.

JungleJimR
07-30-2007, 04:18 PM
I think you may have taken my post a little -- a lot -- more personally than it was intended. Sorry if you read it that way.

And FWIW, I'm not a guy, I'm of the female persuasion. Have a nice day.

I will, and I don't know for sure what you meant by "OP", but I can well imagine. So, you also have a nice day.

ilsox7
07-30-2007, 04:20 PM
I will, and I don't know for sure what you meant by "OP", but I can well imagine. So, you also have a nice day.

OP = Original Poster.

JungleJimR
07-31-2007, 02:13 PM
OP = Original Poster.


To ssrocks,

I am very sorry - I misunderstood your reference, and like you said, overeacted. Please accept my apology.

junglejimr

southside rocks
07-31-2007, 02:40 PM
JJR, I don't think an apology is necessary, but thank you for offering one. I really did not mean to imply that you were, in your post, using hindsight to judge past trades or moves. Sorry for any confusion that I may have created there.

Bullpen = crapshoot -- undoubtedly. I would look no further than Bobby Jenks to illustrate that, in fact. The Angels clearly never thought he would be the pitcher that he is today, so they allowed the Sox to claim him on waivers for what, $20,000? Looks like a steal now, but at the time, who knew? :cool:

I am an incurable optimist. I think 40 years as a Sox fan has forced me to become that. I do think that KW will build a bullpen for 2008 that will be effective and allow the Sox to be in competition all year.

I also think that some of the current names in the Sox bullpen will never be heard again after this season. We'll see!