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downstairs
07-27-2007, 12:47 PM
Today's resuming of the Yankees/Baltimore suspended game from 6/28 made me think of something I've always wondered.

What is the rule with new players acquired after a game is suspended, playing in the remainder of the game?

For example, if the Yankees acquired a player from Toronto or something on 7/1/2007, would he be able to play in this game that technically started on 6/28?

Now, taking that a step beyond… what if the Yankees and Baltimore had a trade during this time? Would each player be able to now play for the ONE team, even though they may have started the game with the OTHER?

It has to have happened at least once. Any ideas?

Chicken Dinner
07-27-2007, 12:55 PM
Another strange thing is the stats. Say for example Arod had hit a homer in the suspended game. That homer wouldn't count against his stats until the game was completed so in actuality he might have already hit his 500th homer. :?:

cleanwsox
07-27-2007, 01:07 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/start_end_4.jsp


4.12
(c) A suspended game shall be resumed at the exact point of suspension of the original game. The completion of a suspended game is a continuation of the original game. The lineup and batting order of both teams shall be exactly the same as the lineup and batting order at the moment of suspension, subject to the rules governing substitution. Any player may be replaced by a player who had not been in the game prior to the suspension. No player removed before the suspension may be returned to the lineup.
A player who was not with the club when the game was suspended may be used as a substitute, even if he has taken the place of a player no longer with the club who would not have been eligible because he had been removed from the lineup before the game was suspended.


Answers one question in regards to somebody not on the roster being able to play in the game.
This could also mean that a player traded from one of the suspended teams to the other could fit in as that "somebody not on the roster being able to play".

downstairs
07-27-2007, 01:08 PM
Another strange thing is the stats. Say for example Arod had hit a homer in the suspended game. That homer wouldn't count against his stats until the game was completed so in actuality he might have already hit his 500th homer. :?:

He hit 499 last night. If he hits a home run in this game, LAST NIGHTS counts as 500.

Pretty cool.

downstairs
07-27-2007, 01:10 PM
The more I've looked into this, I've answered my own question. Yes, a player CAN play for both teams in one game in the case of a suspension.

Which actually means, though it would be a near impossible chain of events... a pitcher CAN win and lose the same game.

See here:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Baseball-Trivia-General-2552/Schilling-Wins-Loses-Game-1.htm

And, no, a player has never played for both teams in a game before (at least according to that link there)

cleanwsox
07-27-2007, 01:13 PM
The reason for that discrepancy is the suspended game. If Rodriguez, who will bat after Matsui when play resumes, homers in the yet to be completed outing, it will go into the record books as taking place on June 28. Therefore, the seven long balls he has hit since that date will technically be counted as occurring after that one, meaning A-Rod's official 500th homer will have taken place in Wednesday's victory at Kansas City.

Taken from: http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=sportsnetwork&page=/mlb/news/AAN4093589.htm

Chicken Dinner
07-27-2007, 01:39 PM
The reason for that discrepancy is the suspended game. If Rodriguez, who will bat after Matsui when play resumes, homers in the yet to be completed outing, it will go into the record books as taking place on June 28. Therefore, the seven long balls he has hit since that date will technically be counted as occurring after that one, meaning A-Rod's official 500th homer will have taken place in Wednesday's victory at Kansas City.

Taken from: http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=sportsnetwork&page=/mlb/news/AAN4093589.htm

Talk about a space-time continuum! WOW

TDog
07-27-2007, 01:59 PM
The reason for that discrepancy is the suspended game. If Rodriguez, who will bat after Matsui when play resumes, homers in the yet to be completed outing, it will go into the record books as taking place on June 28. Therefore, the seven long balls he has hit since that date will technically be counted as occurring after that one, meaning A-Rod's official 500th homer will have taken place in Wednesday's victory at Kansas City.

Taken from: http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=sportsnetwork&page=/mlb/news/AAN4093589.htm

The record book would provide the box score under the date that the game started, but the physical reality is that things happen on dates other than the dates where box scores are found. Look up the George Brett pine tar game against the Yankees, for example, and you will find the records under July 24, 1983, when the Royals finished the day within two games of the tied-for-first White Sox and Rangers. When the umpire's ruling against Brett was overturned, the Royals' loss was overturned and the game suspended. The box score shows that the game was suspended with two outs in the top of the ninth and the Royals leading the Yankees. The win didn't go into the record books until Aug. 18, when the Royals were in second place six games behind the Sox.

If memory serves, the Brett home run was added to his total and his batting average accounted for his records in the pine tar game at the time the commissioner ruled that it counted, and that he was not out for applying pine tar too far up the bat handle. I thought the stats up to that point were entered into the record books at that time. It could have been different because, briefly, Brett's batting average reflected that he went 2-for-5 that day instead of 3-for-5. There never was any question that physically, Ron Guidry's only career appearance as a center fielder took place on Aug. 18, 1983, even though it was the completion of the July 24 game.

Some games take longer to complete than others. The White Sox won two huge games on Oct. 26, 2005, even though you have to go to Oct. 25 in the baseball records to find one of the box scores. Harold Baines hit a home run on May, 9, 1984, against the Brewers to win a 25-inning game at Old Comiskey. The fact that the game was suspended from May 8 doesn't change the fact that he hit the home run on May 9.

When there are other games falling in between the beginning and end of games, it doesn't change the order that people do things. If (excuse the analogy -- no malice intended) Alex Rodriguez suffered a career-ending injury after his first at bat in the suspended game, his last career at bat would be recognized as the date of the suspended game, not the game before the suspended game. The same would apply to his 500th home run.

Chicken Dinner
07-27-2007, 02:06 PM
So when the ball gets auctioned off or goes to the HOF, which one is worth more or goes?:?:

TDog
07-27-2007, 02:14 PM
So when the ball gets auctioned off or goes to the HOF, which one is worth more or goes?:?:

When Rodriguez has 499 home runs and he hits one more, that ball will be recognized by consensus as his No. 500 ball. That there is a technicality that creates an argument that he hit his home runs in an order other than the reality will be suggested by a few.

BeeBeeRichard
07-27-2007, 03:25 PM
Can we go back in time to April 15? How about 2005?

downstairs
07-27-2007, 03:28 PM
The record book would provide the box score under the date that the game started...

...Some games take longer to complete than others. The White Sox won two huge games on Oct. 26, 2005, even though you have to go to Oct. 25 in the baseball records to find one of the box scores. Harold Baines hit a home run on May, 9, 1984, against the Brewers to win a 25-inning game at Old Comiskey. The fact that the game was suspended from May 8 doesn't change the fact that he hit the home run on May 9.

Well, sure. But what you're forgetting is the official date IS important in some respects. Think of streaks.

When this game was suspended, the Yankees had a 4-game losing streak. If they lose the suspended game today, that streak goes to 5 games. If they win today, they break a 4-game losing streak that started on June 23rd.

They currently have a one-game losing streak. If they win the suspended game today, and then lose the second game... they still have a two game losing streak. If they lose both games, they do not have a three game losing streak, they have a two.

If, say, this happened smack dab in the middle of the Oakland A's record setting 20+ game winning streak... it would affect that record. In fact, they'd have no record until the game was complete months later.

Also...

Counts for hitting streaks too. If Joe Dimaggio hits in 25 straight games, has no hits in a suspended game, then hits in 30 straight games. Hit hitting streak is not 55 or 56. Its "unknown". He then breaks the streak there.

Months later the game resumes. He's in and does not have a hit.

He gets a hit- he has a 56 game streak. Done. He doesn't get a hit- he has a 25 game streak and a 30 game streak.

downstairs
07-27-2007, 03:30 PM
So when the ball gets auctioned off or goes to the HOF, which one is worth more or goes?:?:

Well, he has 499 and I assume will get 500... so I don't see it being sold.

But lets say someone grabbed and kept 499. Then another person grabbed 500.

Betcha that BOTH would try to sell them as "500"... and in today's society... I'd bet each would sue the other, barring them from calling theirs "500".


End result, think of it this way. A-Rod homers in the resumed game today.

It will be the "500th homer he's hit".... not "his 500th homer"

Chicken Dinner
07-27-2007, 03:34 PM
Talk about asterisks.

TDog
07-27-2007, 06:18 PM
Well, sure. But what you're forgetting is the official date IS important in some respects. Think of streaks. ...

Such streaks are irrelevant to the point of this thread because they involve performance relative to a team's schedule. Individual performances, including cumulative milestone achievements do not relate to a team's schedule. If a player first called up on Aug. 17, 1983, hits his first major league home run in the bottom of the ninth in the completion of the Yankees-Royals suspended game, he hit his first major league home run on Aug. 18 -- not July 24 when he wasn't in the major leagues. He may not have signed a baseball contract at the point where the game would be suspended, but he would be eligible to play in the completion of the game.

On the subject of streaks, a player had three straight hits in his last three at bats in the July 24 game and got 10 hits in his next 10 plate appearances, he would have 13 straight hits and would set a record. If in completing the suspended game in August he struck out (or even hit a sacrifice fly, as that would end a consecutive-hits streak), baseball would not come back and yank the record away from him. It was a personal streak unrelated to the team schedule.

Reality is reality.

downstairs
07-27-2007, 08:01 PM
Such streaks are irrelevant to the point of this thread because they involve performance relative to a team's schedule. Individual performances, including cumulative milestone achievements do not relate to a team's schedule. If a player first called up on Aug. 17, 1983, hits his first major league home run in the bottom of the ninth in the completion of the Yankees-Royals suspended game, he hit his first major league home run on Aug. 18 -- not July 24 when he wasn't in the major leagues. He may not have signed a baseball contract at the point where the game would be suspended, but he would be eligible to play in the completion of the game.

On the subject of streaks, a player had three straight hits in his last three at bats in the July 24 game and got 10 hits in his next 10 plate appearances, he would have 13 straight hits and would set a record. If in completing the suspended game in August he struck out (or even hit a sacrifice fly, as that would end a consecutive-hits streak), baseball would not come back and yank the record away from him. It was a personal streak unrelated to the team schedule.

Reality is reality.

Oh, I know. I wasn't trying to argue with ya. I'm actually facinated by the point.

Technically, according to the records, yes, he DID hit his first home run on July 24th. That's just how the record books work. You can't argue that- its in the rules. (You can argue that you don't like it, but that's the law, as it were).

Now- that brings up an interesting point. There are many rules with contracts that have a lot to do with when players do things- especially "being called up".

Would that player tecnically be "in service" on June 24th? He absolutely would have a home run recorded on that day in the books.

If the Yankees play a rookie call-up tonight who had never played before June 24th... does his career start on June 24th?

Hmmmmmm....

Now, on to your second point: I know it sucks for him, but i *DO* think MLB would yank that record/streak away. I'm pretty positive that's how the rules go.

downstairs
07-27-2007, 08:04 PM
Oh, and A-Rod didn't hit a home run... so.... ummm... never mind.

:cool:

TDog
07-28-2007, 12:00 AM
...

Technically, according to the records, yes, he DID hit his first home run on July 24th. That's just how the record books work. You can't argue that- its in the rules. (You can argue that you don't like it, but that's the law, as it were). ...

Of course the point is moot, as I expected it to be. Nonetheless, on an academic point ...

I am arguing with the rules, or at least the interpretation that people are throwing out here. There is nothing in the rules that says one game is finished before another game begins. If that were the case, a team would play no games before completing a suspended game. In fact, the records for suspended games actually do record the point at which a game is suspended and when it is resumed. If you look in the record book for the longest game by innings played in White Sox history, you will find, not that it was played on May 8, 1984, but that it was begun on May 8, suspended and completed on May 9. Where the records are stored are irrelevant to when the activities in the game happened and the order in which things happened.

Major league baseball would not give a player credit for major league service that he did not actually earn. Imagine that a game is suspended while the player is participating in the College World Series, and the day that this suspended game is begun, he hits a home run that eliminates another team. He's like a Bob Horner-type player who came up and starred with the Braves in 1978 after finishing his season at Arizona State University. He makes his debut with the mid-season resumption of the suspended game, and hits a home run to win it. The records for both the college and MLB home run would be found on the same date. But the records would indicate the MLB home run was not hit on the same date. If major league service went to the day that he eliminated Cinderella U., the NCAA would have to deal with an eligibility question long after the the College World Series had concluded.

A team's records go in specific places, but if a team has games suspended, the linear actions of an individual player won't necessarily be reflected in a linear way by those records.

If I got 13 hits in 13 at bats in July, they won't take the record away from me because I made an out in a suspended game in August.

downstairs
07-28-2007, 08:48 AM
In fact, the records for suspended games actually do record the point at which a game is suspended and when it is resumed.

...

If I got 13 hits in 13 at bats in July, they won't take the record away from me because I made an out in a suspended game in August.

But that's not the rules. The rules, word for word:

"For the purpose of this rule, all performances in the completion of a suspended game shall be considered as occurring on the original date of the game. "

So call it silly, but yes... A-Rod's home run in the 9th today would have been his 480th (or whatever) and the one in KC on Thursday would have been 500.

How else would you interpret the rule? His home run in the 9th of the suspended game would not have happened on 7/27... it would have happened on 6/23. That's the rule. Its right there.

Oh, and yes... MLB would absolutely take away someone's hitting streak... as much as they'd give them one. Take my Dimaggio example. If the guy didn't have a hit in the first 8 innings of a suspended game. That suspended game starts in the middle of a 56-game hitting streak. Then the streak ends, and months later the game resumes. And he gets a hit. What now? Would you now not give him the 56 game streak, but rather a 20 and a 35 game streak?

MLB would give him the streak... see the rules I copied.

TDog
07-28-2007, 01:01 PM
But that's not the rules. The rules, word for word:

"For the purpose of this rule, all performances in the completion of a suspended game shall be considered as occurring on the original date of the game. "

So call it silly, but yes... A-Rod's home run in the 9th today would have been his 480th (or whatever) and the one in KC on Thursday would have been 500.

How else would you interpret the rule? His home run in the 9th of the suspended game would not have happened on 7/27... it would have happened on 6/23. That's the rule. Its right there.

Oh, and yes... MLB would absolutely take away someone's hitting streak... as much as they'd give them one. Take my Dimaggio example. If the guy didn't have a hit in the first 8 innings of a suspended game. That suspended game starts in the middle of a 56-game hitting streak. Then the streak ends, and months later the game resumes. And he gets a hit. What now? Would you now not give him the 56 game streak, but rather a 20 and a 35 game streak?

MLB would give him the streak... see the rules I copied.

Baseball would interpret the rule as Rodriguez hitting his 500th home run on the date of the completion of the suspended game, recorded in the date of the suspended game. The rule doesn't change the order he hit his home runs. It changes the order that baseball puts them in the record books. Complex scoring rules are interpretive in nature and can be waived by the league. They are a matter of record keeping and are not fundamental to whether games are won or lost.

The reality is, if a player had a personal hitting streak in 15 at bats with the first seven coming in a game suspended months earlier, the commissioner would either announce before the completion of the game that the rule does not apply or that the rule is being waived. If the commissioner were silent, the team would probably not have the player hit, risking the streak that had been celebrated with his picture on the cover of The Sporting News.

People are reading too much into the rule, as if it must take precedence. If the Rodriguez controversy had been for a record and not just a milestone, the commissioner surely would have made such an announcement.

Had Rodriguez suffered a career-ending injury after getting a hit, his last hit, his last game would not be recorded as the day of the suspension. His date of service would not have been ended at the date of the suspension. If he had to go on the disabled list, he would not have been ineligible for the games he played in after the suspension.

This isn't a difficult call at all. Great feats are great feats. The scoring rules should not provide a barrier to them. Suppose a shortstop records an unassisted triple play after catching a ball that didn't hit the ground, but before he gets the third out, a runner from third has crossed the plat. By competitive rules, the run would count unless there was an appeal play at third to record an out for the runner who didn't tag up. If the shortstop after getting the unassisted triple play sees the situation and throws to third base, the "fourth out" would take the place of the third out in the scoring records. Conceivably, the c commissioner would still have the power to confer on him an unassisted triple play.