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View Full Version : 2008: Just sign Eckstein and then fix the pen


Frater Perdurabo
07-26-2007, 05:26 PM
The Sox may not need as much of an overhaul as we previously thought.

Yes, Pods is injury-prone. But he's dangerous when he's healthy. Dye seems to want to stay and might give the Sox another hometown discount. Owens is doing a servicable job in CF and at the plate, too. And Erstad is pretty good when healthy. I think Iguchi can be retained, too. So if the Sox were to dump Uribe and Cintron and sign Eckstein to play short, I think the offense could be very good:

Regular lineup: Pods, Eckstein, Thome, PK, AJ, Dye, Crede, Iguchi, Erstad
Bench: Owens, Hall, Fields, Mack, Ozuna

This would give the Sox 5 guys who could lead off. With smart substitutions - Fields DH v. LHP and regular rest for Pods, Erstad & Crede - the offense could be quite productive.

Just deal Contreras for veteran relief, and they're ready to compete!

Chicken Dinner
07-26-2007, 05:36 PM
No more players with back problems.

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/team/injuries.jsp?c_id=stl

AJ Hellraiser
07-26-2007, 05:36 PM
What is with people's love for Eckstein?

Cuz he's been on 2 World Series winning teams...big deal...

He won the World Series MVP last year mainly because his team really stunk and there weren't many other candidates unless you wanted to give it to Detroit's relief pitchers

He isn't a very good hitter, he doesn't have a ton of speed and he has limited range at SS.... He might seem like he really fits the Grinder mode but who cares? He's an extremely average player

asboog
07-26-2007, 05:37 PM
T
Bench: Owens, Hall, Fields, Mack, Ozuna

Who is your back up ss?

getonbckthr
07-26-2007, 05:41 PM
Podsednik and Erstad should be nowhere near this team next season unless it in an opponents uniform.

Frater Perdurabo
07-26-2007, 05:43 PM
Who is your back up ss?

Ozuna.

jsg-07
07-26-2007, 05:48 PM
The Sox may not need as much of an overhaul as we previously thought.

Yes, Pods is injury-prone. But he's dangerous when he's healthy. Dye seems to want to stay and might give the Sox another hometown discount. Owens is doing a servicable job in CF and at the plate, too. And Erstad is pretty good when healthy. I think Iguchi can be retained, too. So if the Sox were to dump Uribe and Cintron and sign Eckstein to play short, I think the offense could be very good:

Regular lineup: Pods, Eckstein, Thome, PK, AJ, Dye, Crede, Iguchi, Erstad
Bench: Owens, Hall, Fields, Mack, Ozuna

This would give the Sox 5 guys who could lead off. With smart substitutions - Fields DH v. LHP and regular rest for Pods, Erstad & Crede - the offense could be quite productive.

Just deal Contreras for veteran relief, and they're ready to compete!


Crazy as it may sound, I think you are on to something here. Dye is coming around and they guy had a bad first half when half the team had a bad first half. If we can retain him for a few years similar to what he is making now why not. He can always DH down the road when Thome leaves. I also think, if possible that maybe sign Rowand. (Before anyone goes crazy, understand that i do not have the Rowand man love, but i do think he is an average to above average player and I dont think he will command as much money as people think with as many OF's being available in the off season). Get rid of Erstad and spend that money on the bullpen.

I am also in the minority that thinks we may need to keep Uribe. Mainly because I cannot think of anyone else out there that we can realistically get that would be better. I have no problem with him in the 9 spot if everything else is working.

I know these options will cost more and in no way am I saying the sox are cheap (because I know they have one of the highest payrolls), but IF they want to contend against cleveland and detroit, I really think that is the reality of it.

whitesoxfan
07-26-2007, 05:50 PM
**** Eckstein. I'm sick and tired of the grinder/gritty/crappy players that Kenny is going after. Ecsktein is not a very good player, simple as that. Please, we don't need the infield version of Erstad on our hands.

Mickster
07-26-2007, 05:51 PM
What is with people's love for Eckstein?

Cuz he's been on 2 World Series winning teams...big deal...

He won the World Series MVP last year mainly because his team really stunk and there weren't many other candidates unless you wanted to give it to Detroit's relief pitchers

He isn't a very good hitter, he doesn't have a ton of speed and he has limited range at SS.... He might seem like he really fits the Grinder mode but who cares? He's an extremely average player

1. he's better overall than Juan
2. he's not that expensive
3. there is not much in terms of SS in the 08 FA market

AJ Hellraiser
07-26-2007, 05:56 PM
1. he's better overall than Juan
2. he's not that expensive
3. there is not much in terms of SS in the 08 FA market

1. Pretty much every SS in baseball is better than Juan
2. How do you know what he is going to cost? He could easily jack up his price if he is the best SS on the market
3. then make a trade for a quality SS instead of trying to use emler's glue to fix the problem

getonbckthr
07-26-2007, 06:03 PM
A potential option for SS I realistically believe is Tejada. The word is they will move him for 3-4 MLB ready players pending on the talent. Can a package of Floyd, Anderson, Getz (I think thats his name) and Broadway be enough? The way I would see it Brian replaces Patterson, if they fel Getz is ready he would play SS if not I believe SS is Mora's natural position. Plus they would get 2 young arms that have talent to go with Bedard and Cabrera. No to mention it frees up salary for them. He makes 13 million so that wouldn't be a huge salary added on especially with the idea of Miggy replacing Dye's bat and Uribe's position.

Mickster
07-26-2007, 06:12 PM
1. Pretty much every SS in baseball is better than Juan
2. How do you know what he is going to cost? He could easily jack up his price if he is the best SS on the market
3. then make a trade for a quality SS instead of trying to use emler's glue to fix the problem

1. Touche
2. Call me wrong if Eckstein signs a 5 year $75M deal.
3. I forgot that our minor league system is full to the brim with talent. Or are you suggesting that we trade someone off of our 25 man roster? We already need replacements/resignings at RF, 2B, SS, CF, and possibly LF. We need 1 or 2 bullpen arms as well. The FA market, however weak, is our best option.

Zisk77
07-26-2007, 06:19 PM
1. he's better overall than Juan
2. he's not that expensive
3. there is not much in terms of SS in the 08 FA market


1. He is not better overall then Juan.
2. He lacks range, and will prolly become a second baseman soon
3. He has a poor arm.
4. In fact he only does 2 things better than Juan...steal bases and contact hit. Juan still has more pop and is a better run producer and is CHEAPER! and healthier.

I'd rather have Vizquel if we are replacing Juan with a FA.

Domeshot17
07-26-2007, 06:29 PM
I think its a given we have a new SS this year. It is a more glaring hole then CF, second biggest on our team to RP. For your minor league buffs out there, can Richar play short? Could we possibly go into the season with a Richar/Iguchi middle IF or even better a Richar/L. Castillo MI?

santo=dorf
07-26-2007, 07:06 PM
**** Eckstein. I'm sick and tired of the grinder/gritty/crappy players that Kenny is going after. Ecsktein is not a very good player, simple as that. Please, we don't need the infield version of Erstad on our hands.
Erstad is a better defender at his position than Eck. :o:

http://www.likesbooks.com/images/nomorewirehangers.jpg
"NO. MORE. SCRAPPY. GRINDERS!!!!!"

chaerulez
07-26-2007, 07:15 PM
The Sox may not need as much of an overhaul as we previously thought.

Yes, Pods is injury-prone. But he's dangerous when he's healthy. Dye seems to want to stay and might give the Sox another hometown discount. Owens is doing a servicable job in CF and at the plate, too. And Erstad is pretty good when healthy. I think Iguchi can be retained, too. So if the Sox were to dump Uribe and Cintron and sign Eckstein to play short, I think the offense could be very good:

Regular lineup: Pods, Eckstein, Thome, PK, AJ, Dye, Crede, Iguchi, Erstad
Bench: Owens, Hall, Fields, Mack, Ozuna

This would give the Sox 5 guys who could lead off. With smart substitutions - Fields DH v. LHP and regular rest for Pods, Erstad & Crede - the offense could be quite productive.

Just deal Contreras for veteran relief, and they're ready to compete!

In an offensive that hasn't been very good until late, the only change you want to make is Eckstein over Uribe? And making Fields a bench player at this point in his career is not a good idea. If anything it should be a platoon, as Fields kills LHP. Contreras might bring in a decent relief pitcher. But it will take more than that to fix the bullpen. Who becomes the fifth starter? Floyd has proven nothing. Fixing this team isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Not to mention half this lineup could get injured again in 2008.

WhiteSox5187
07-26-2007, 07:49 PM
**** Eckstein. I'm sick and tired of the grinder/gritty/crappy players that Kenny is going after. Ecsktein is not a very good player, simple as that. Please, we don't need the infield version of Erstad on our hands.
Yea, I gotta agree with this, ya really would hate to have a lead off guy who has hit .290 the past two seasons. :rolleyes:

His OBP is a bit low, but he is one of the hardest strike outs, and averages over 120+ games a year and is in great amongst the top ten leadoff hitters in baseball (according to ESPN who for some reason put Soriano and Johnny Damon on that list...). His arm leaves a lot to be desired at short, which is why I think he would be a good second baseman. I'd like see this Richar kid up at short and what he can do. But Uribe at short is not the answer...and I don't think we can count on Pods to stay healthy all of next year but he'd be a good fourth OF...my ideal lineup for the Sox next year (not in batting order, but by position):

C AJ
1B Paulie
2B Eckstein
SS Richar*
3B Crede/Fields (depending on Crede's back)
LF Sweeney
CF Rowand (I know, I know, but he's an above average OF and will STILL be a second teir free agent next year)
RF Dye*
DH Thome

Bench: Ozuna, Fields (depending on Crede's back), Andy Gonzalez, Jerry Owens, Pods, Toby Hall

* I'm not sure of alternatives, depends on whether we can move Dye this year, who we get for him and whether or not Richar looks any good at short

getonbckthr
07-26-2007, 08:20 PM
Yea, I gotta agree with this, ya really would hate to have a lead off guy who has hit .290 the past two seasons. :rolleyes:

His OBP is a bit low, but he is one of the hardest strike outs, and averages over 120+ games a year and is in great amongst the top ten leadoff hitters in baseball (according to ESPN who for some reason put Soriano and Johnny Damon on that list...). His arm leaves a lot to be desired at short, which is why I think he would be a good second baseman. I'd like see this Richar kid up at short and what he can do. But Uribe at short is not the answer...and I don't think we can count on Pods to stay healthy all of next year but he'd be a good fourth OF...my ideal lineup for the Sox next year (not in batting order, but by position):

C AJ
1B Paulie
2B Eckstein
SS Richar*
3B Crede/Fields (depending on Crede's back)
LF Sweeney
CF Rowand (I know, I know, but he's an above average OF and will STILL be a second teir free agent next year)
RF Dye*
DH Thome

Bench: Ozuna, Fields (depending on Crede's back), Andy Gonzalez, Jerry Owens, Pods, Toby Hall

* I'm not sure of alternatives, depends on whether we can move Dye this year, who we get for him and whether or not Richar looks any good at short
Aaron Rowand is an average OF at best. All because someone dives and runs into walls and breaks his nose on a fence it does not mean he is an above average OF'r.

Frater Perdurabo
07-26-2007, 09:00 PM
And making Fields a bench player at this point in his career is not a good idea. If anything it should be a platoon, as Fields kills LHP.

Fields would DH against LHP, to give Thome regular rest (and Thome is bad v. LHP). He also would get about half the starts at 3B against RHP. That's about 450 ABs, almost full-time duty.

In almost any scenario in which one of the starting five is traded, the 5th starter spot is an open competition between Floyd, Gio, Masset, etc. That's almost certain to be what will happen anyway.

Ozuna's injury was a freak accident (same with Hall). The only true "injury risks" are Pods and Erstad. Losing them in the field hasn't hurt the Sox at all; Terrero, Mackowiak, Sweeney, Owens, etc. have been OK as their replacements in the field. Where losing Pods and Erstad has hurt is at the top of the lineup. That's where Eckstein comes in; and he solves the SS problem, too.

Tragg
07-26-2007, 11:06 PM
The Sox may not need as much of an overhaul as we previously thought.

Yes, Pods is injury-prone. But he's dangerous when he's healthy. Dye seems to want to stay and might give the Sox another hometown discount. Owens is doing a servicable job in CF and at the plate, too. And Erstad is pretty good when healthy. I think Iguchi can be retained, too. So if the Sox were to dump Uribe and Cintron and sign Eckstein to play short, I think the offense could be very good:

Regular lineup: Pods, Eckstein, Thome, PK, AJ, Dye, Crede, Iguchi, Erstad
Bench: Owens, Hall, Fields, Mack, Ozuna
!
That team plays .500. Doesn't address any offensive weaknesses and arguably exacerbates them by adding yet another slap hitter with no power, something this team is already overloaded with (entire bench; several starters).
No youth added, but more 30-35 year old veterans, the demographic of which is injury-prone and subject to decline. It's not a good defensive club. It's the same bench with no real major league backups, but 3rd string utilty players who can play any position. It assumes that each of the declines we saw this year was just coincidence or bad luck - not permanent or a trend.

I don't think we need rebuilding, but we need some young talent.

thomas35forever
07-26-2007, 11:07 PM
**** Eckstein. I'm sick and tired of the grinder/gritty/crappy players that Kenny is going after. Ecsktein is not a very good player, simple as that. Please, we don't need the infield version of Erstad on our hands.
Are you suggesting that Erstad is the Chris Duhon of our ballclub?

Frater Perdurabo
07-26-2007, 11:13 PM
That team plays .500. Doesn't address any offensive weaknesses and arguably exacerbates them by adding yet another slap hitter with no power, something this team is already overloaded with (entire bench; several starters).

blah blah blah

OK, what would YOU suggest that's both realistic and within a reasonable budget? :?:

I don't think we need rebuilding, but we need some young talent.

Fair enough. I agree. So who's going to give the Sox this young talent in exchange for all the third-string utility players you want to dump?

WhiteSox5187
07-26-2007, 11:45 PM
Aaron Rowand is an average OF at best. All because someone dives and runs into walls and breaks his nose on a fence it does not mean he is an above average OF'r.
Rowand is not in the same league as guys like Torri Hunter or Ichiro, but if you take it team by team, there are seven (in my opinion) guys who are better than Rowand. That doesn't make him one of the best, but it puts him slightly above average.

Lip Man 1
07-26-2007, 11:55 PM
Frater:

To me the Sox have needs in the following areas:

1. Potentially a new 2nd baseman.
2. A new shortstop
3. Two or three guys with some SPEED.
4. Potentially an entirely new outfield (that's three more positions.)
5. A 5th starter (Contreras is done)
6. At LEAST three new arms for the bullpen (four would be better.)

That is a serious rebuilding job and one that I don't think the Sox can pull off in a single off season unless as Kenny has stated the free agent market drops dramatically in price.

I think Kenny is going to have to sign some guys regardless of market price, try to con other teams into taking our minor league 'talent' in exchange for some guys who have shown some success at the big league level but simply may not have a regular position on their current club and he's going to have to pull the old Roland Hemond number of trading one guy for two, two guys for three and so forth.

Can he do it?

Honestly I don't know...at least in a single off season.

Lip

areilly
07-27-2007, 12:43 AM
Just deal Contreras for veteran relief, and they're ready to compete!

See, this is the part where the plan falls apart. What team would possibly go for turning solid relief pitching into unreliable starting pitching? In fact, I would go so far as to say any team willing to take on Contreras at this point has to know they're going to need a hell of a bullpen behind him.

It's a nice idea, but I agree with Lip that the Sox' problems are more numerous and complicated than what you have here.

chisoxfanatic
07-27-2007, 12:53 AM
Podsednik and Erstad should be nowhere near this team next season unless it in an opponents uniform.
How could you say that about Podsednik when the numbers show that he is among the most important pieces for this team? The truth is, he is the ignitor of this offense. There are so many things that he does: getting into the heads of the opposing pitcher/fielders, getting key infield hits, all-out grinder. I agree with you on Erstad; but, let's lay off Podsednik here.

WhiteSox5187
07-27-2007, 02:09 AM
See, this is the part where the plan falls apart. What team would possibly go for turning solid relief pitching into unreliable starting pitching? In fact, I would go so far as to say any team willing to take on Contreras at this point has to know they're going to need a hell of a bullpen behind him.

It's a nice idea, but I agree with Lip that the Sox' problems are more numerous and complicated than what you have here.
Well...teams always need pitching, and if Jose can have a good August and September, then maybe some team that just barely missed the playoffs (like the Cubs, the Brewers, some team that was close) might think "We're a pitcher away from winning it...Jose was good at the end of the season, we could use him..." it's the same philosophy that got Weaver what? 18 million for one year?

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-27-2007, 02:22 AM
Podsednik, yes is an injury risk. But the risk is worth it because he is so ****ing dangerous on the base paths and completley transforms any game by making the pitcher crap their pants (i.e., Verlander today)

wdelaney72
07-27-2007, 09:38 AM
Frater,
I normally agree with you, but I can't this time.
Dye = too old
Eckstein =too old
Ersted = tool old, too injury prone, and his resume outside of 2 seasons is rather unimpressive
Podsednik = too injury prone. I like him, but I think we caught lightning in a bottle with him in 2005.

We need serious bullpen help, an upgrade at SS. an upgrade at CF. I'm not against re-signing Iguchi, but I'm not interested in investing a lot of money in him, either. I can't decide on the outfield yet, as we need more major league at-bats to truly evaluate Sweeney, Fields, and Owens. I do know that I DON"T want Aaron Rowand back in CF. Congratulations to him and his performance in his contract year, I remember a guy who in 2005 who hit a whopping 13 dongs and .270.

I have to second Lip in the we have more area of need that can be addressed in one off-season.

Hitmen77
07-27-2007, 11:20 AM
What is with people's love for Eckstein?



I think it's more that people are fed up with Uribe and anyone's love for Eckstein. Unfortunately, there aren't many options at all to replace Uribe.

Some people have mentioned Richar from the minors, but then I have heard that he's a poor SS defensively and is better off at 2B.

FedEx227
07-27-2007, 11:35 AM
I think it's more that people are fed up with Uribe and anyone's love for Eckstein. Unfortunately, there aren't many options at all to replace Uribe.

Some people have mentioned Richar from the minors, but then I have heard that he's a poor SS defensively and is better off at 2B.

So, a lot like David Eckstein.

soxfan13
07-27-2007, 11:39 AM
How could you say that about Podsednik when the numbers show that he is among the most important pieces for this team? The truth is, he is the ignitor of this offense. There are so many things that he does: getting into the heads of the opposing pitcher/fielders, getting key infield hits, all-out grinder. I agree with you on Erstad; but, let's lay off Podsednik here.


Could easily say that if you are only going to play 60 games a year. Love you Pods thanks for the memories but I want someone that will at least be there 130-140 games a year. The Sox should have let him go this past off season. See ya later!!!!!

Thome25
07-27-2007, 12:04 PM
I'd rather have the Sox go out and get Ryan Freel, Luis Castillo, and Aaron Rowand AND fix the pen rather than Eckstein.

Lip Man 1
07-27-2007, 01:34 PM
According to a story in the Sun - Times today via Joe Cowley, Ozzie says the top priority next year must be to fix the bullpen...second apparently is to get speed in the lineup.

Lip

WLL1855
07-28-2007, 01:57 AM
So, a lot like David Eckstein.

If I see Eckstein in our lineup next year I may just be perpetually ill. I'll take anybody we have (Cintron? - God, did I just say that?) over Eckstein simply for the reason that we can spend the money better elsewhere.