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View Full Version : Marte to come back?


oldroman66
07-25-2007, 03:41 PM
ESPN says Marte is available....he's done a phenomenal job this season for Pittsburgh....something like .087 batting average against....looks like he's exactly what the bullpen needs

Risk
07-25-2007, 03:53 PM
No--the Sox have been down that road before.

Risk

chaerulez
07-25-2007, 04:42 PM
Marte has always been an above average reliever. He had one bad run of a month or so in 2005 (even though he still finished the season with a 3.77 ERA), Sox fans think he's the worst reliever ever.

But yet we should've kept Carl Everett and Aaron Rowand?

Only Jenks is a better pitcher right now in our pen than Marte.

esbrechtel
07-25-2007, 04:52 PM
if the price is right it couldnt hurt...

kjhanson
07-25-2007, 04:54 PM
Marte has always been an above average reliever. He had one bad run of a month or so in 2005 (even though he still finished the season with a 3.77 ERA), Sox fans think he's the worst reliever ever.

But yet we should've kept Carl Everett and Aaron Rowand?

Only Jenks is a better pitcher right now in our pen than Marte.

He had two bad outings in Late September where he gave up 2 runs in 1/3 of an inning both times. (we won one of the games)

Excluding those two outings (3.03% of his appearances) his ERA was 3.02 on a World Series winning team. And he pitched 1 2/3 scoreless in the post-season, although he did walk four batters.

Domeshot17
07-25-2007, 05:05 PM
how quickly you guys forget. It was never a case of Marte letting his own runners score. Marte was been drilled here because he would come in the 7th or 8th after a starter or another RP had put a runner or 2 on, and surely would let them score. He was TERRIBLE in keeping inherited runners from scoring, which maybe is more important in terms of RP then era itself.

The Immigrant
07-25-2007, 05:14 PM
I'd take him back in a heartbeat. 2005 was his worst year with the Sox and even then he was better than all but one of our current relievers.

kjhanson
07-25-2007, 05:18 PM
how quickly you guys forget. It was never a case of Marte letting his own runners score. Marte was been drilled here because he would come in the 7th or 8th after a starter or another RP had put a runner or 2 on, and surely would let them score. He was TERRIBLE in keeping inherited runners from scoring, which maybe is more important in terms of RP then era itself.

Maybe to the untrained eye that's how it appears:

Damaso Marte Career:
With men on: .243 BAA .717 OPSA
RISP: .220 BAA .662 OPSA

Jamie Walker Career:
With men on: .253 BAA .719 OPSA
RISP: .255 BAA .720 OPSA

J.C. Romero Career:
With men on: .282 BAA .804 OPSA
RISP: .274 BAA .801 OPSA

John Franco Career:
With men on: .251 BAA .677 OPSA
RISP: .240 BAA .676 OPSA

santo=dorf
07-25-2007, 05:22 PM
He had two bad outings in Late September where he gave up 2 runs in 1/3 of an inning both times. (we won one of the games)

Excluding those two outings (3.03% of his appearances) his ERA was 3.02 on a World Series winning team. And he pitched 1 2/3 scoreless in the post-season, although he did walk four batters.
Early in the first half Marte's WHIP was nearly as high as his ERA. The only reason why his ERA wasn't higher was because of Cotts, Politte, Hermanson, and later Jenks cleaning up his mess. Do you need a reminder of whose mess El Duque, the former hospital janitor, had to clean up in game 3 of the ALDS?
Here is his WHIP (a much more important stat for a reliever) by month:
1.45, 1.96, 1.50, 1.57, 1.81, 1.91, 4.50.

He sucked all of the 2005 and was carried by the other members of the great pen.

2004 WHIP by month:
1.57, .94, .69, 1.7, 1.14, 1.55, 2.00

TDog
07-25-2007, 05:26 PM
I was happy to see Marte go to the Pirates. He had overstayed his welcome with the Sox because he was inconsistent, turning in occasionally bad outings. He walked the bases loaded in Boston, but his shutout work in the World Series got him (thanks to a blown save by Hermanson depriving Garland) one of four World Series wins (along with Garcia, Cotts -- thanks to a blown save by Jenks depriving Buehrle -- and Contreras getting the other three wins). Marte had a down year in 2005. Before that, he was an excellent reliever, but relievers often have up-and-down careers.

I was happy the Sox got Mackowiak for Marte. Mackowiak would dramatically improve the White Sox bench, I believed. I liked what I saw out of him when he played for the Pirates.

Unfortunately, the Sox were left without a center fielder in filling holes that would give them a chance to repeat. Mackowiak played a lot more than a good bench player should.

As Sox fans we have been down the Marte road before. Was it as scary as the 2007-bullpen road (full of hairpin turns and steep grades, seemingly, without guardrails)?

I have no idea if the White Sox want Marte back. There are things fans don't know about players and their relationships with their current/former teams. If Marte came back, I wouldn't be upset. I have no idea what the Pirates would want for him, but I'm sure he would improve the bullpen.

kjhanson
07-25-2007, 05:33 PM
Here is his WHIP (a much more important stat for a reliever) by month:
1.45, 1.96, 1.50, 1.57, 1.81, 1.91, 4.50.

He sucked all of the 2005 and was carried by the other members of the great pen.


See my post above about his stellar work with men on base, which I'd hope you would agree is much more important than simply ERA or WHIP for a reliever.

In 2005 his BAA was .190 with RISP. That number was .161 in 2004!

oeo
07-25-2007, 05:35 PM
You all are forgetting that he didn't get along in the clubhouse. There's no way Kenny would bring him back...that's we he was sent out.

kjhanson
07-25-2007, 05:41 PM
2004 WHIP by month:
1.57, .94, .69, 1.7, 1.14, 1.55, 2.00

This is a laughable line here, especially after you called me out for a small sample size (135 ABs) on Jerry Owens.

Your 2.00 WHIP in October? That was for 1 (!) inning of work.
He didn't pitch more than 16 innings in one of those months (and that was the month where his WHIP was 0.69).

Finally, his WHIP for the year was 1.22.

Your number "manipulation" and analysis is sub-par to say the least.

JB98
07-25-2007, 05:49 PM
You all are forgetting that he didn't get along in the clubhouse. There's no way Kenny would bring him back...that's we he was sent out.

That's my guess too. There's not much question he'd be an upgrade over any of the current middle relievers, even if he came back in erratic 2005 form.

I just don't think Marte would be all that welcome in the clubhouse.

santo=dorf
07-25-2007, 05:50 PM
See my post above about his stellar work with men on base, which I'd hope you would agree is much more important than simply ERA or WHIP for a reliever.

In 2005 his BAA was .190 with RISP. That number was .161 in 2004!
WHIP covers an entire inning. For a 7 year sample size the numbers of innings with RISP is only 112.1.

In 2005 Damaso pitched 9 innings with RISP, hell Jenks had 13.

The reason why it was so low was because Marte was yanked by Guillen because he was putting himself in that situation. Theoretically the ultimate reliever shouldn't have any numbers with RISP because that means he has a 1-2-3 inning or allows a single or a walk.

TDog
07-25-2007, 05:50 PM
You all are forgetting that he didn't get along in the clubhouse. There's no way Kenny would bring him back...that's we he was sent out.

I wasn't forgetting that. I have heard there were clubhouse problems, but I don't know if the people Marte didn't get along with are still on the team. I don't know if the people he didn't get along with have an actual office in the clubhouse or the front office. It was widely reported that Frank Thomas and Paul Konerko didn't get along, of course, but I don't know if that ever mattered to the people who think they could do a better job as general manager.

If Marte returns to the Sox, I would assume there no longer is a problem. If he does not, I won't use this as an exhibit in my argument that Kenny Williams is a lousy general manager.

Most fans know so little about the real value of players. Kenny Williams knows a lot more about what is going on than I do. The fact that all but two Sox relievers have spent time in the minor leagues this season shows that he knows the bullpen needs to be addressed. If making a deal for Marte would make the White Sox a better team, I don't question that he would make it.

santo=dorf
07-25-2007, 05:52 PM
This is a laughable line here, especially after you called me out for a small sample size (135 ABs) on Jerry Owens.

Your 2.00 WHIP in October? That was for 1 (!) inning of work.
He didn't pitch more than 16 innings in one of those months (and that was the month where his WHIP was 0.69).

Finally, his WHIP for the year was 1.22.

Your number "manipulation" and analysis is sub-par to say the least.
I was going to list just like the other one, but I'm not basing anything off October, in fact you already covered his late September screw up. I'm basing my opinion of Marte's 2005 season on all of his months, not just October or some situational stats. Give me a link that says his 2005 WHIP was 1.22. Yahoo is telling me is was 1.72. Last year is was 1.41. Not good.

Wasn't Marte's only problem in the clubhouse was with Carlos Lee, which was reported as Carlos picking on him?

kjhanson
07-25-2007, 05:57 PM
WHIP covers an entire inning. For a 7 year sample size the numbers of innings with RISP is only 112.1.

In 2005 Damaso pitched 9 innings with RISP, hell Jenks had 13.

The reason why it was so low was because Marte was yanked by Guillen because he was putting himself in that situation. Theoretically the ultimate reliever shouldn't have any numbers with RISP because that means he has a 1-2-3 inning or allows a single or a walk.

That's what ERA is supposed to encompass though, yes? If he really left as many runners on base as you claim, then surely his ERA would be higher. But you said he was saved in 2005 by a great bullpen. OK, that may be true for that season. But over a long enough period (7 years you say), the pitchers behind him are not going to be great (and have not been), yet he still has a very good career ERA.

So either he is a very good relief pitcher OR quite possibly the "luckiest" relief pitcher in the last seven years, because when he leaves the game with men on base, the relievers behind him step it up, for no other reason than to protect Damaso Marte's sacred ERA.

I'll take the first argument, thank you.

kjhanson
07-25-2007, 06:00 PM
I was going to list just like the other one, but I'm not basing anything off October, in fact you already covered his late September screw up. I'm basing my opinion of Marte's 2005 season on all of his months, not just October or some situational stats. Give me a link that says his 2005 WHIP was 1.22. Yahoo is telling me is was 1.72. Last year is was 1.41. Not good.


The numbers you had on that line I showed you were the ones you had for 2004, which I verified. That year his WHIP was 1.22. His career WHIP is 1.26 and his ERA+ is 1.45, which is excellent.

oeo
07-25-2007, 06:03 PM
I wasn't forgetting that. I have heard there were clubhouse problems, but I don't know if the people Marte didn't get along with are still on the team. I don't know if the people he didn't get along with have an actual office in the clubhouse or the front office. It was widely reported that Frank Thomas and Paul Konerko didn't get along, of course, but I don't know if that ever mattered to the people who think they could do a better job as general manager.

If Marte returns to the Sox, I would assume there no longer is a problem. If he does not, I won't use this as an exhibit in my argument that Kenny Williams is a lousy general manager.

Most fans know so little about the real value of players. Kenny Williams knows a lot more about what is going on than I do. The fact that all but two Sox relievers have spent time in the minor leagues this season shows that he knows the bullpen needs to be addressed. If making a deal for Marte would make the White Sox a better team, I don't question that he would make it.

Well, a lot of people are questioning why we got rid of him and it wasn't because he had a bad year, because the guy was proven to be solid. Kenny isn't afraid to unload guys that don't 'fit in.'

And if I remember correctly, I thought Ozzie had a problem with him. I don't really remember exactly what had happened, and I've tried looking for the stories, but he didn't get along.

santo=dorf
07-25-2007, 06:16 PM
That's what ERA is supposed to encompass though, yes? If he really left as many runners on base as you claim, then surely his ERA would be higher. But you said he was saved in 2005 by a great bullpen. OK, that may be true for that season. But over a long enough period (7 years you say), the pitchers behind him are not going to be great (and have not been), yet he still has a very good career ERA.

So either he is a very good relief pitcher OR quite possibly the "luckiest" relief pitcher in the last seven years, because when he leaves the game with men on base, the relievers behind him step it up, for no other reason than to protect Damaso Marte's sacred ERA.

I'll take the first argument, thank you.
I've already addressed this. If you don't want to re-read my post, I suggest you pop in the World Series DVD and look at how the aliens in Hermanson's, Cotts', and Politte's bodies were pitching in 2005. Look at their WHIPs.

Want more damning evidence?
Inherited Runners/Inherited runners they allowed to score
Cotts: 47/11
Hermanson: 21/5
Politte: 51/11 :o:

To put it in some perspective. this year:
Bukvich: 24/9
Thornton: 40/15
MacDougal: 26/8
Sisco:16/6


In 2005, Marte was an arsonist and our late inning guys were the fire fighters.

My argument isn't Marte sucked all his career and has been fortunate to have a great BP behind him to clean it up, it was in 2005. The Sox got rid of Marte because of the 2005 season, not because of his career. I don't think anyone is trying to argue that.