PDA

View Full Version : Another trade rumor


Fred Manrique
07-24-2007, 09:36 AM
According to the New York Post, the Yankees may be interested in Jon Garland and Matt Thornton.

http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playernews.aspx?sport=MLB
Scroll down near the bottom...

The Immigrant
07-24-2007, 09:57 AM
Cano and Cabrera would work for me, but there's no way Cashman is dealing both of them.

EDIT: Cano and Cabrera combined make less than Matt Thornton alone, and neither will even be arbitration elibigle until the 2009 season at the earliest.

julio-cruz
07-24-2007, 10:06 AM
That would be a steal by the Yankees. If they give up both Thornton and Garland, Kenny would have to ask for Chamberlain/or Hughes, Cano and Cabrera..........seriously!

Chicken Dinner
07-24-2007, 10:24 AM
They don't want Contreras back?

Thome25
07-24-2007, 10:40 AM
I would do the deal if it included Cano and a couple of prospects. I'm not as high on Cabrera.

balke
07-24-2007, 10:42 AM
I think everybody WANTS Garland. Question is, who's gonna actually make a good offer for him? I'd assume a veteran outfielder, cash and a pitching prospect is what the Yanks have to offer. Could be a good match for the Sox.

Think they'd try to send off Damon to the Sox? He might bounce back a bit once he gets away.

oeo
07-24-2007, 10:45 AM
I think everybody WANTS Garland. Question is, who's gonna actually make a good offer for him? I'd assume a veteran outfielder, cash and a pitching prospect is what the Yanks have to offer. Could be a good match for the Sox.

Think they'd try to send off Damon to the Sox? He might bounce back a bit once he gets away.

Damon is getting paid too much; and he's old. Start with Melky Cabrera or Robinson Cano and go from there.

spiffie
07-24-2007, 10:49 AM
Damon is getting paid too much; and he's old. Start with Melky Cabrera or Robinson Cano and go from there.
You can end with Cano. I'd gladly go Garland for Cano, straight up. If they want Thornton, throw in a mid-level pitching prospect.

upperdeckusc
07-24-2007, 10:53 AM
You can end with Cano. I'd gladly go Garland for Cano, straight up. If they want Thornton, throw in a mid-level pitching prospect.

Teal? or
:bong:

spiffie
07-24-2007, 10:56 AM
Teal? or
:bong: The only bong hits involved would be the ones Cashman was taking if we could get Cano for essentially a year and two months of Garland. Otherwise yes, I would happily trade a pitcher who is likely gone in a season for a young 2B who hits around .300 every year and would be under our control for 3 more seasons.

Jaffar
07-24-2007, 10:56 AM
Could Cabrera fill our leadoff hole as well? I know he batted some leadoff last year but I'm not sure if he does anymore. I don't you could both for Garland but both sound more reasonable then other rumors. Young proven talent that is locked up long term and cheap is what Garland should bring the Sox in a trade.

jsg-07
07-24-2007, 11:37 AM
This whole situation kind of sucks in my opinion. While I understand the need to fill a ton of holes and to do so we may have to part with Garland or Javy it weakens our pitching staff terribly.

I know it may not be a reality but the only thing to do in my opinion is to dump Jose C. and get whatever we can for him. Otherwise, if you get rid of Garland or Javy, you are stuck with Jose, Danks and whoever we can bring up next year. If Jose continues to pitch with a 5+ ERA, Danks and whoever becomes the next fifth starter would REALLY have to pick it up.

Crappy situation all around. I would NOT want to be Kenny W right now.

Over By There
07-24-2007, 11:39 AM
I'd hate to give up 2 significant pieces of our pitching staff for position players. That said, I'd love to have Cano. Seems like a class act and solid ballplayer.

AzureJazzMan
07-24-2007, 12:00 PM
Didn't Kenny acquire Danks because he reminded him of Buehrle, and Floyd because he reminded him of Garland? I believe that his thinking was that he would be able to trade either one of them (potentially both) and not miss much of a step. Tonight will be the deciding factor on whether he trades Garland, based on how Floyd pitches in the 2nd half of the double header IMO. If Gavin does well tonight, Garland is traded by Friday...Just a hunch.

soxtalker
07-24-2007, 12:01 PM
Cano is an interesting thought, though that seems to have been speculation on mlbtraderumors -- not from the original article in the NYP.

oeo
07-24-2007, 12:15 PM
Didn't Kenny acquire Danks because he reminded him of Buehrle, and Floyd because he reminded him of Garland? I believe that his thinking was that he would be able to trade either one of them (potentially both) and not miss much of a step. Tonight will be the deciding factor on whether he trades Garland, based on how Floyd pitches in the 2nd half of the double header IMO. If Gavin does well tonight, Garland is traded by Friday...Just a hunch.

I've never once heard that. Danks and Floyd are both bigger strikeout guys than Buehrle and Garland, not to mention Floyd's fastball can get into the mid-90s and he has a nasty curve. Not seeing many similarities between the two. Danks and Floyd have better stuff...it's just a matter of using it.

And I highly doubt Kenny makes a decision based on one start by Floyd.

ilsox7
07-24-2007, 12:21 PM
Didn't Kenny acquire Danks because he reminded him of Buehrle, and Floyd because he reminded him of Garland? I believe that his thinking was that he would be able to trade either one of them (potentially both) and not miss much of a step. Tonight will be the deciding factor on whether he trades Garland, based on how Floyd pitches in the 2nd half of the double header IMO. If Gavin does well tonight, Garland is traded by Friday...Just a hunch.

Tonight is no such deciding factor. One good or bad outing will not impact KW's entire trading philosophy. I still think Gar is going to be traded, but not it doesn ot hinge on tonight at all.

champagne030
07-24-2007, 12:37 PM
I've never once heard that. Danks and Floyd are both bigger strikeout guys than Buehrle and Garland, not to mention Floyd's fastball can get into the mid-90s and he has a nasty curve. Not seeing many similarities between the two. Danks and Floyd have better stuff...it's just a matter of using it.



Not since he's been in A ball has his fastball been clocked above 94. He routinely sits at 89-92 with the two-seamer and might touch 93 once per game with the four-seamer. He does have potential with his curveball, but he gets behind his motion, more often than not, and it just rolls up to the plate.

broker3d
07-24-2007, 12:46 PM
Watch Gavin Floyd on the mound today. The kid looks identical to Curt Schilling with his pitching style. Now is when we say "if he could only pitch like him."

AzureJazzMan
07-24-2007, 01:50 PM
I've never once heard that. Danks and Floyd are both bigger strikeout guys than Buehrle and Garland, not to mention Floyd's fastball can get into the mid-90s and he has a nasty curve. Not seeing many similarities between the two. Danks and Floyd have better stuff...it's just a matter of using it.

And I highly doubt Kenny makes a decision based on one start by Floyd.

Danks like Buehrle

"Danks works quick and I think that has probably been taught to him by Buehrle, too. You can obviously see a little mirror image there. That's a smart young pitcher, trying to emulate a guy like Buehrle."
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070510&content_id=1956526&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

We've used the term, 'Buehrle it in there.' After the first few hitters, if you can't Buehrle it, then let's Danks it."
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-soxbrite27jun27,1,2012492.story


"He's a young [Mark] Buehrle, that's what they call him. It looks like it," said Konerko of Danks.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070516&content_id=1968130&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Floyd Like Garland

"I've compared him to Chris Carpenter and the [Jon] Garland kid Kenny has, who was a little slow to come around, but when he did, he became a very good big-league pitcher. He has the quality of stuff and the athleticism to become a very good big-league pitcher."
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061207&content_id=1753481&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Now, as for basing his decision on one start...You're right...This will be his second start. If you recall, Ozzie and Kenny both said that they wanted him to stay, when they brought him up last time. Perhaps they had a deal in the works, til Gavin choked up 6 runs. Hell, this could be a showcase for Mr. Floyd because he may be the one that is dealt. With KW you never know, he is the ninja of GMs

PennStater98r
07-24-2007, 02:05 PM
The only bong hits involved would be the ones Cashman was taking if we could get Cano for essentially a year and two months of Garland. Otherwise yes, I would happily trade a pitcher who is likely gone in a season for a young 2B who hits around .300 every year and would be under our control for 3 more seasons.

Education is a wonderful thing... More should look into it. :cool:

2005 - 16 68 .297 .320
2006 - 18 54 .342 .365
2007 - 18 57 .294 .331

One guess what the above numbers are:

16, 18 and 18 are the number of walks he's had every year. The .342 average is obviously a fluke as you can see from his other two seasons. At least the trend seems to indicate so. Further, the number of walks vs strikeouts isn't very positive. Finally the .330ish OBP that he'd have isn't THAT special. It's certainly not worth giving up a guy that has 18 in each wins the last two years and can throw 200+ innings every year...

soxinem1
07-24-2007, 02:12 PM
"He's a young [Mark] Buehrle, that's what they call him. It looks like it," said Konerko of Danks.

If anything, I think Konerko and Danks resemble each other a lot more than Buerhle and Danks.

Buerhle looks more like Bill Clinton.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:peZjoVrDnCkDrM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Bill_Clinton.jpg/300px-Bill_Clinton.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Bill_Clinton.jpg/300px-Bill_Clinton.jpg&imgrefurl=http://ecarson.wordpress.com/2007/02/&h=391&w=300&sz=28&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=peZjoVrDnCkDrM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=94&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbill%2Bclinton%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1% 26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBF_enUS223US224%26sa%3DN) http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/7/75428m.JPG

But Cabrera and Cano for Garland wins with me, because unlike Buerhle, Garland will not give a home town discount, and Garland wants to pitch in So-California. You can see it in his eyes.

oeo
07-24-2007, 11:26 PM
Not since he's been in A ball has his fastball been clocked above 94. He routinely sits at 89-92 with the two-seamer and might touch 93 once per game with the four-seamer. He does have potential with his curveball, but he gets behind his motion, more often than not, and it just rolls up to the plate.

He hit 94 multiple times tonight, so I have no idea where you're getting this information from.

oeo
07-24-2007, 11:29 PM
Danks like Buehrle

"Danks works quick and I think that has probably been taught to him by Buehrle, too. You can obviously see a little mirror image there. That's a smart young pitcher, trying to emulate a guy like Buehrle."
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070510&content_id=1956526&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

We've used the term, 'Buehrle it in there.' After the first few hitters, if you can't Buehrle it, then let's Danks it."
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-soxbrite27jun27,1,2012492.story


"He's a young [Mark] Buehrle, that's what they call him. It looks like it," said Konerko of Danks.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070516&content_id=1968130&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Floyd Like Garland

"I've compared him to Chris Carpenter and the [Jon] Garland kid Kenny has, who was a little slow to come around, but when he did, he became a very good big-league pitcher. He has the quality of stuff and the athleticism to become a very good big-league pitcher."
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061207&content_id=1753481&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

But he's not comparing their stuff. The way you originally stated it was Kenny sees these guys as replacements.

In Danks' case, they both work fast...okay, but Danks has better stuff, now he just needs to use it. Floyd's case is just two high-round draft picks taking some time to get going. I don't see many comparisons in the way they pitch, though.

champagne030
07-24-2007, 11:41 PM
He hit 94 multiple times tonight, so I have no idea where you're getting this information from.

Watching him in person.

If you think his fastball was as fast as Jenks' then I have some stuff to sell you. He did feature more 4-seam fastballs tonight than in the past, but that's because he cannot get the 2-seamer over the plate. I wasn't there, but according to a friend, he never got above 91 at the stadium. The Pee-U may have been using a different gun. :dunno:

Lukin13
07-24-2007, 11:44 PM
I think Cashman does this deal... if he has a spot for him.

We are spoiled w/ our starting pitching here on the southside.

John Garland is a big time, proven mlb starter.... I really hope the Buerhle situation wasn't and either or...

I would love Cano and Kenny would love his contract situation but John Garland may be the only player I wouldn't trade for him.

oeo
07-24-2007, 11:51 PM
Watching him in person.

If you think his fastball was as fast as Jenks' then I have some stuff to sell you. He did feature more 4-seam fastballs tonight than in the past, but that's because he cannot get the 2-seamer over the plate. I wasn't there, but according to a friend, he never got above 91 at the stadium. The Pee-U may have been using a different gun. :dunno:

Well, I know for sure that later in the game, the gun at the park was faster than the one on TV. Jenks threw one that said 94, Hawk said the park had it at 96.

EDIT: And I'm not sure what gun MLB Gameday uses, but they had him at 97 a few times early in the game, which I doubt, but I find it hard to believe that your friend is correct. Two different guns had him consistently over 91.

Domeshot17
07-25-2007, 01:10 AM
I think Cashman does this deal... if he has a spot for him.

We are spoiled w/ our starting pitching here on the southside.

John Garland is a big time, proven mlb starter.... I really hope the Buerhle situation wasn't and either or...

I would love Cano and Kenny would love his contract situation but John Garland may be the only player I wouldn't trade for him.


who is John Garland lol. I do agree JON Garland is tough to trade, especially when his replacement keeps stinking it up. I think the problem right now is Contreras. You can replace him and live with a Floyd or Haeger because he is pitching like a 5th starter. However when you try and replace your number 2 or 3, its a big hit. Its a shame we cant move some of our specs for guys like this, a Broadway for Cano deal or something like that.

Jaffar
07-25-2007, 08:39 AM
If you can trade Garland who is only under control for 1 more year for 2 position players who will start and be above average and be under control for more than 1 year you have to make that move. With that said I don't think KW can get both but if he can get 1 and a good pitching prospect it would be hard to pass.

spiffie
07-25-2007, 09:22 AM
Education is a wonderful thing... More should look into it. :cool:

2005 - 16 68 .297 .320
2006 - 18 54 .342 .365
2007 - 18 57 .294 .331

One guess what the above numbers are:

16, 18 and 18 are the number of walks he's had every year. The .342 average is obviously a fluke as you can see from his other two seasons. At least the trend seems to indicate so. Further, the number of walks vs strikeouts isn't very positive. Finally the .330ish OBP that he'd have isn't THAT special. It's certainly not worth giving up a guy that has 18 in each wins the last two years and can throw 200+ innings every year...
So let's see...I say "a guy who hits around .300 each year"...and so you respond by showing numbers that have him around .300 each year. Your debating skills leave me in awe.

Let's look at some other numbers, Cano against other MLB 2B.
2005 7th in 2B, 7th in SLG
2006 3rd in SLG, 2nd in 2B, 3rd in OPS
2007 4th in 2B, 7th in SLG

So even in his non-"fluke" years, though how you can define a guy who has 2 full years under his belt as having a fluke year I don't know, he's still a high average, decent power, doubles hitting 2B.

But oh no! He doesn't draw a whole lot of walks as a 24 year old with 2.5 years in the majors!

But hey, at least we have Garland locked up for one more year that is likely to be a rebuilding season, that seems really useful!

Maybe "Baseball 101" should include more than just Moneyball when they teach it there in Happy Valley.

INSox56
07-25-2007, 10:14 AM
EDIT: And I'm not sure what gun MLB Gameday uses, but they had him at 97 a few times early in the game, which I doubt, but I find it hard to believe that your friend is correct. Two different guns had him consistently over 91.
Were you looking at the right pitch speed? There are two speeds, one at realease and one at the plate. The one at release is always pretty high up there.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-25-2007, 10:44 AM
If the Sox do trade Garland, you have to get a starter back in return.

I'd trade Garland, Thornton, and Iguchi for Cano and Hughes and a low level pitching prospect.

PennStater98r
07-26-2007, 05:05 PM
So let's see...I say "a guy who hits around .300 each year"...and so you respond by showing numbers that have him around .300 each year. Your debating skills leave me in awe.

Let's look at some other numbers, Cano against other MLB 2B.
2005 7th in 2B, 7th in SLG
2006 3rd in SLG, 2nd in 2B, 3rd in OPS
2007 4th in 2B, 7th in SLG

So even in his non-"fluke" years, though how you can define a guy who has 2 full years under his belt as having a fluke year I don't know, he's still a high average, decent power, doubles hitting 2B.

But oh no! He doesn't draw a whole lot of walks as a 24 year old with 2.5 years in the majors!

But hey, at least we have Garland locked up for one more year that is likely to be a rebuilding season, that seems really useful!

Maybe "Baseball 101" should include more than just Moneyball when they teach it there in Happy Valley.

I showed that he hit around .300 each year because you're right about that - not to argue against it. However, I also wanted to illustrate that the .342 is a fluke.

Regardless of how he has ranked relative to other second basemen, I still stand by him not being worth a Jon Garland.

You missed the context of the BB. It's not about how many BB he has drawn. It's about how many times he's struck out combined with his BB. It shows impatience in his at bats and that he likes to swing a lot. If you want to take this guy in a few years and put him into the middle of line-up that needs a double-hitting, run production - that's fine. However, the Sox don't need more guys that hit for power. They need a top of the line-up guy. Second Base would be an ideal spot to get a guy that gets on base a whole bunch. I'd be impressed with him if he struck out 100 times but drew 70+ walks.

I'm just not impressed with him at all. He's streaky. He has no patience, and his numbers are hollow numbers. Who gives a crap if the guy turns it on for the Yankees when they're 13 games out of 1st place after hitting below the Mendoza-line for half the season?

No - we have plenty of streaky players that fall victim to many slumps. Give me a .260-.270 hitter with a .370-.380 OBP. That tells me the guy is trying to work the count instead of swing at the first pitch he sees - which Cano does quite often.

Numbers mean crap out of context. I'd take the 2005 Iguchi over any of Cano's seasons any day - because we don't often see the numbers of times that Gooch hit a ball to the correct side of the field depending on the situation. Cano is a Soriano Jr. without nearly the speed or power that Soriano has - in fact the only thing similar to the two of them is their gloves.

That said, I wouldn't want Soriano on the Southside and I certainly wouldn't want Cano.

PennStater98r
07-26-2007, 05:15 PM
So let's see...I say "a guy who hits around .300 each year"...and so you respond by showing numbers that have him around .300 each year. Your debating skills leave me in awe.

Let's look at some other numbers, Cano against other MLB 2B.
2005 7th in 2B, 7th in SLG
2006 3rd in SLG, 2nd in 2B, 3rd in OPS
2007 4th in 2B, 7th in SLG

So even in his non-"fluke" years, though how you can define a guy who has 2 full years under his belt as having a fluke year I don't know, he's still a high average, decent power, doubles hitting 2B.

But oh no! He doesn't draw a whole lot of walks as a 24 year old with 2.5 years in the majors!

But hey, at least we have Garland locked up for one more year that is likely to be a rebuilding season, that seems really useful!

Maybe "Baseball 101" should include more than just Moneyball when they teach it there in Happy Valley.

By the way, who says next year will be a rebuilding season. For Pete's sake - we'll be two seasons removed from being the World Series Champs. We had a lot of problems this year, and we have a lot to address, but what we have to address isn't as expensive as the parts that we already have.

We'll already have three solid starters next year, a sophomore that should improve next year if the the league's not figured him out and run producers in the middle of our line-up.

Of what we do need to work on out of the bullpen, it's not the closer - so we don't have to spend big bucks to get a solid bullpen. We just have to do more than give shots to mediocre talent hoping they'll have a magical-career season like Pollite or Hermanson did two years ago. Go out there and get a Linebrink or a Betancort. They'll be a lot less expensive than signing a stud closer.

Getting a speedy guy that draws walks and is healthy should'nt be an expensive task either.

Next year won't be an easy season, but to write next year off as a rebuilding season is wrong. Let's make the rest of this season and the offseason the time to rebuild.