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View Full Version : What's Kenny's Logic?


ChiSoxFan7
07-22-2007, 10:10 AM
With the Trade deadline fast approaching, and the constant talk of we are buyers or not in the trade market at all: I have a question for the board...


What is Kenny thinking if he doesn't trade anyone? Does anyone see logic behind this move or really lack there of a move?


I was just excited to see what kind of magic KW could cook up before the deadline, but all reports seem to point to nothing all too exciting will happen....

Grzegorz
07-22-2007, 10:13 AM
I do not expect KW to tip his hand at this moment.

Lets wait until the deadline passes and judge KW then.

Lip Man 1
07-22-2007, 10:24 AM
I think the 'heavy lifting' will be done this off season.

Lip

Grzegorz
07-22-2007, 10:27 AM
I think the 'heavy lifting' will be done this off season.

Lip

I was just talking about whether moves, specifically for Dye & Contreras, are made by the trading deadline.

I totally agree that the off season will be the time the team retools.

jabrch
07-22-2007, 10:29 AM
I do not expect KW to tip his hand at this moment.

Lets wait until the deadline passes and judge KW then.


Exactly

It would be dumb for KW to come out either way and say we are definitely moving X player or we are not moving X player. Why limit your options? Why box yourself into anything, and why look desperate to do something?

Kenny will evaluate the market for a lot of his guys, look at his options, including trade them now, let them walk to draft pick compensation, or work to resign them, and do what he thinks is best.

KW has done a good job and delievered solid results as a GM. He had one season where everything went wrong and very little went right. I'd bet on a rebound next year.

The trade deadline he might use to build for the future (trade Dye for prospects) but you guys (Gregorz and Lip) are right - major improvements won't happen now. You don't improve your team for the short term when you are out of it by acquiring guys. This is the time that KW is working for 1+ years out. In the offseason he will focus on 2008.

DumpJerry
07-22-2007, 10:34 AM
Kenny never tips his hand in advance. Ignore what he says.

Also, if nobody wants to make a deal, it makes making a trade a bit challenging.

itsnotrequired
07-22-2007, 10:42 AM
I believe every word that comes out of a GM's mouth around trade deadline.

Chicken Dinner
07-22-2007, 10:53 AM
No one that's tradable has any value.

JB98
07-22-2007, 12:03 PM
With the Trade deadline fast approaching, and the constant talk of we are buyers or not in the trade market at all: I have a question for the board...


What is Kenny thinking if he doesn't trade anyone? Does anyone see logic behind this move or really lack there of a move?


I was just excited to see what kind of magic KW could cook up before the deadline, but all reports seem to point to nothing all too exciting will happen....

If no moves are made, it means that we couldn't get anyone who could help us for the players we have available. KW will make a trade only if he thinks he's getting a player(s) in return who will help us return to the top of the division in the near future.

There is no point in making trades for B prospects to fill out the rosters at lower levels.

Brian26
07-22-2007, 12:05 PM
What is Kenny thinking if he doesn't trade anyone? Does anyone see logic behind this move or really lack there of a move?


There is a lot of logic behind the idea of not making a trade, and it's been discussed pretty thoroughly here.

If KW decides that the return he's going to get on Dye isn't the same value as the two Type A draft picks he would obtain if Dye leaves via free agency (granted the Sox offer him arbitration), it might be worth it to keep Dye.

As for Contreras, it might be worth it to keep him and try to give him a chance to turn it around and build his trade value back up. Possibly KW could get more back for Contreras over the winter. Teams get desperate though, so it's possible someone might overpay for Contreras before the trade deadline.

letsgosox1592
07-22-2007, 12:08 PM
There is a lot of logic behind the idea of not making a trade, and it's been discussed pretty thoroughly here.

If KW decides that the return he's going to get on Dye isn't the same value as the two Type A draft picks he would obtain if Dye leaves via free agency (granted the Sox offer him arbitration), it might be worth it to keep Dye.

As for Contreras, it might be worth it to keep him and try to give him a chance to turn it around and build his trade value back up. Possibly KW could get more back for Contreras over the winter. Teams get desperate though, so it's possible someone might overpay for Contreras before the trade deadline.

How do each player get ranked what type player they are. I think its most likely by stats.Correct??

JB98
07-22-2007, 12:10 PM
There is a lot of logic behind the idea of not making a trade, and it's been discussed pretty thoroughly here.

If KW decides that the return he's going to get on Dye isn't the same value as the two Type A draft picks he would obtain if Dye leaves via free agency (granted the Sox offer him arbitration), it might be worth it to keep Dye.

As for Contreras, it might be worth it to keep him and try to give him a chance to turn it around and build his trade value back up. Possibly KW could get more back for Contreras over the winter. Teams get desperate though, so it's possible someone might overpay for Contreras before the trade deadline.

I suppose there is some chance KW will move Contreras now just as a salary dump. Obviously, that's a non-issue with Dye since his contract is up at the end of the year. We just have to pray that Contreras pitches lights out in his next outing against the Tigers. Maybe that would convince another GM to take him.

The X factor is we don't know how other GMs feel about their window to win, or if they feel anything the Sox have to offer is the missing piece to get them over the hump. I really feel Dye could help either San Diego or Los Angeles, but how much are those two teams willing to part with for 60 games and 250 ABs from Jermaine Dye? None of us know.

JorgeFabregas
07-22-2007, 12:17 PM
How do each player get ranked what type player they are. I think its most likely by stats.Correct?? Elias Sports Bureau compiles player rankings at the end of the year. They're based on stats from the last two years. If a player was in the top 30% at his position he is a Type A free agent. Hopefully Dye's monster year last year will keep him in that category, but the formula is proprietary so there's no way of knowing.

jabrch
07-22-2007, 01:10 PM
Elias Sports Bureau compiles player rankings at the end of the year. They're based on stats from the last two years. If a player was in the top 30% at his position he is a Type A free agent. Hopefully Dye's monster year last year will keep him in that category, but the formula is proprietary so there's no way of knowing.

Worst case, Dye is a Type B player (I think he'd be a type A unless he has a completely miserable rest of the year.) and we still get 1 first round pick for him. Either way, JD has a lot of value and KW will capitalize on it, either by trading him if someone wants to pay more than 2 firsts worth, by resigning him, or by offering him arbitration and letting him walk. Same holds true for Iguchi - although he may have a harder time being a Type A guy.

itsnotrequired
07-22-2007, 01:23 PM
Worst case, Dye is a Type B player (I think he'd be a type A unless he has a completely miserable rest of the year.) and we still get 1 first round pick for him. Either way, JD has a lot of value and KW will capitalize on it, either by trading him if someone wants to pay more than 2 firsts worth, by resigning him, or by offering him arbitration and letting him walk. Same holds true for Iguchi - although he may have a harder time being a Type A guy.

Type B players who are lost now result in a sandwich pick instead of a direct pick from the signing club.

jabrch
07-22-2007, 01:25 PM
Type B players who are lost now result in a sandwich pick instead of a direct pick from the signing club.

Correct...First Supplemental round would have been more accurate. If he's signed by a team in the top 15, that actually is better for us as their first would be protected.

oeo
07-22-2007, 02:39 PM
With the Trade deadline fast approaching, and the constant talk of we are buyers or not in the trade market at all: I have a question for the board...


What is Kenny thinking if he doesn't trade anyone? Does anyone see logic behind this move or really lack there of a move?


I was just excited to see what kind of magic KW could cook up before the deadline, but all reports seem to point to nothing all too exciting will happen....

Well, what do you want him to do? In order to get some talent, we have to give up some talent. Right now it would be nice to trade Dye, Contreras, etc. but their value in a trade is just not very good. If we're not going to get anything, what's the point?

ChiSoxFan7
07-22-2007, 04:39 PM
Well, what do you want him to do? In order to get some talent, we have to give up some talent. Right now it would be nice to trade Dye, Contreras, etc. but their value in a trade is just not very good. If we're not going to get anything, what's the point?

that's what i kinda thinking about when i wrote this. If there's a player or two that a GM knows he won't attempt tp re-sign or isn't the long term plans of a team, but still has some value (i.e. Dye or Contreras) does it ever make more sense to get a second tier prospect or two that may develop or may just be a minor league players all there life. We're even with the KC royals, so i don't see the use in holding onto anyone who isn't in the plans even if you get decent/semi decent trade value.*

*then again that's why I'm not a GM, and KW is. I could be totally wrong about this, so feel free to explain if I am wrong...

oeo
07-22-2007, 06:27 PM
that's what i kinda thinking about when i wrote this. If there's a player or two that a GM knows he won't attempt tp re-sign or isn't the long term plans of a team, but still has some value (i.e. Dye or Contreras) does it ever make more sense to get a second tier prospect or two that may develop or may just be a minor league players all there life. We're even with the KC royals, so i don't see the use in holding onto anyone who isn't in the plans even if you get decent/semi decent trade value.*

*then again that's why I'm not a GM, and KW is. I could be totally wrong about this, so feel free to explain if I am wrong...

Just give it some time. A lot can happen in the next week and someone may get desperate and need a Dye or Contreras.

balke
07-22-2007, 07:31 PM
I would think the Mets would want Iguchi with Valentin down. I would love to have these guy back next season, but if Dye can agree to go try and win a championship with someone for the rest of the season, and come back next year that would be great. I am to the point where I feel sorry for some of the players stuck on the Sox right now. There's no bullpen, and no chance to win.

oeo
07-22-2007, 08:54 PM
I would think the Mets would want Iguchi with Valentin down. I would love to have these guy back next season, but if Dye can agree to go try and win a championship with someone for the rest of the season, and come back next year that would be great. I am to the point where I feel sorry for some of the players stuck on the Sox right now. There's no bullpen, and no chance to win.

The only guys I feel sorry for are the starting pitchers, Bobby Jenks, and Jim Thome. The rest of them were non-existent the entire first half.

balke
07-22-2007, 08:57 PM
The only guys I feel sorry for are the starting pitchers, Bobby Jenks, and Jim Thome. The rest of them were non-existent the entire first half.

Thome missed a bunch of games, why feel sorry for him? Regardless of the slow starts, Dye and Iguchi will be free agents, and are playing for a last place team. I don't think the Sox have the depth to let go of an OFer right now though so who knows. It might make sense to give Richar and Gonzalez 2B through the rest of the season if Iguchi is gone next year though. I think there's a couple teams that are in need of a 2Bman upgrade.

Frontman
07-22-2007, 09:47 PM
When you play poker, its best not to tip your hand. KW is in a pretty big poker game when it comes to trades. He'll keep us all guessin'.

oeo
07-23-2007, 12:43 AM
Thome missed a bunch of games, why feel sorry for him? Regardless of the slow starts, Dye and Iguchi will be free agents, and are playing for a last place team. I don't think the Sox have the depth to let go of an OFer right now though so who knows. It might make sense to give Richar and Gonzalez 2B through the rest of the season if Iguchi is gone next year though. I think there's a couple teams that are in need of a 2Bman upgrade.

Let's see...he's been our only consistent offensive production, and is playing through an injury so we're not any worse than we already are.

Soxfanspcu11
07-23-2007, 12:52 AM
Kenny never tips his hand in advance. Ignore what he says.



That is so true.

What was it, I think after the Sox got swept by the scrubs, I saw on the ESPN "ticker" thing that the Sox were looking to trade Mark and Jermaine.

Well, we all know what happened with Mark. Granted Jermaine is still up in the air and I do have a feeling that he will be moved.

Sometimes I feel like Kenny just says things to get people thinking a certain way, and then does something completely different.

And as an aside, is it just me or is Kenny Williams one of the most famous and recognizable GM's in the game?

Of course I am not just talking about the local market, I am talking about nationally, I hear his name mentioned on shows like PTI and ATH all the time.

chisoxmike
07-23-2007, 10:12 AM
I was just excited to see what kind of magic KW could cook up before the deadline, but all reports seem to point to nothing all too exciting will happen....

Why? Who cares? The team is so far from good that any "magic" trade wouldn't help.

Also, why trade just to trade? If you are not going to get back any value in return for Dye and others. Sink with the ship.

Quickdraw
07-23-2007, 10:44 AM
I think the 'heavy lifting' will be done this off season.

Lip

Co-sign, this season is over after the Boston series. Bring on 2008.

chisoxmike
07-23-2007, 10:46 AM
Co-sign, this season is over after the Boston series. Bring on 2008.

HA! This season was over in June.

Frontman
07-23-2007, 11:15 AM
HA! This season was over in June.

June? How's about offseason? Kenny didn't make the moves to make the team better that were needed. He had every intent to make the team better, but the decisions he made did not put a winning team together.

chisoxmike
07-23-2007, 11:20 AM
June? How's about offseason? Kenny didn't make the moves to make the team better that were needed. He had every intent to make the team better, but the decisions he made did not put a winning team together.

Well, yeah. God forbid anyone voiced that in Spring Training around here, I didn't think the team was any good to start the season, but they played ok for the first two months and it looked like they may have been able to at least make the season interesting. But after they **** themselves in Philly, Pitt, and at home against the Marlins and Cubs, the season was over for me.

chidonez
07-23-2007, 12:10 PM
They'd never do it, but I'd love to see PK dealt. I know they say he's the elder leader on the team and all, but how's that working for them now. We've got guys like Thome, Burls, and AJ in the clubhouse. Crede should go while were at it since we have depth at that position. Perhaps we could get a little faster and better up the middle and in the outfield.