PDA

View Full Version : how do you fix this bullpen?


esbrechtel
07-21-2007, 05:25 PM
Everyone in the MLB needs bullpen pitchers, so how do you fix the sox pen (if you can) without breaking the bank? discuss...

Railsplitter
07-21-2007, 05:29 PM
Okay, they can throw hard, but get some movement

Thome25
07-21-2007, 05:35 PM
Collectively I think this has to be one of the worst if not THE WORST White Sox bullpen EVER.

Stats-wise has there been one worse? How about morale wise?

What do you think?

Lip Man 1
07-21-2007, 05:37 PM
See 1996.

Lip

Lip Man 1
07-21-2007, 05:40 PM
You can't have as many projects and kids trying to get their feet wet in your bullpen at the same time next season. Two 'tops.' I'd prefer only one.

I don't know what's going on in Kenny's mind but he knows about the issue, I'm sure he'll do evverything he can to fix it because he has to.

This bullpen is tearing the guts out of the team emotionally and mentally I'm sure based on Ozzie's comment about his 'veterans' last week.

Lip

ilsox7
07-21-2007, 05:43 PM
Replace most of the bullpen with a tee and then hold an open tryout to see who is better than the tee.

JB98
07-21-2007, 05:46 PM
Replace most of the bullpen with a tee and then hold an open tryout to see who is better than the tee.

At least the tee never walks anyone.

ilsox7
07-21-2007, 05:47 PM
At least the tee never walks anyone.

Exactly and if we place it right, we may get guys to fly out.

oeo
07-21-2007, 05:52 PM
You can't have as many projects and kids trying to get their feet wet in your bullpen at the same time next season. Two 'tops.' I'd prefer only one.

It didn't help that Thornton and MacDougal were not the pitchers they're supposed to be. Remember last year when we were talking about rebuilding the bullpen? It was...we have the back end with Jenks, Thornton, and MacDougal; now we just need some middle relievers. Well, those two have been crap and that has been the worst thing that could happen.

Combine bad luck with a few question marks and you have the White Sox bullpen.

That said, I'm not ready to just throw Thornton and MacDougal out the door. They could be dominant next year, and next year we may have a surplus of bullpen arms...that's just how thing work out sometimes.

Here's what I would do:
-Sign Scott Linebrink.
-Trade for another...maybe Joaquin Benoit who is rumored to be on the market right now?
-Keep Jenks, Thornton, and MacDougal.
-Fill that last spot with someone from the organization (there's your one guy, Lip), whether that be Logan (hope not), Wasserman, Day, Russell, Vasquez, etc. We can hold try outs for the rest of the year...somebody has to step up eventually.

UserNameBlank
07-21-2007, 06:01 PM
Here are a couple ideas:

Each RP pitches one full inning. Stop bringing all these guys in during pressure situations! They obviously can't handle it.

And on Ozzie again: stop intentionally walking hitters to make the problem even worse! When Ozzie had Wassermann walk Manny it really started the whole explosion today. I don't care if Manny hits an eight-run homer. Let the relievers pitch to everyone!!! No more extra walks!!!

Ozzie has proven lately that he can not manage a bullpen. When the Sox were trying to still remain in the hunt, one could defend Ozzie going to his matchups because he was trying to get an ineffective reliever out as soon as possible. One could also defend Ozzie for going with any certain reliever in any certain situation simply because the whole pen was garbage. Now, everything is different. The Sox are out of the race and he is still setting up his relievers for failure!

I wish ondafarm were here because we need another "Fire Ozzie" thread. :angry: Yeah the pen sucks, but it's not going to get any better unless it is managed differently. Situations don't matter anymore; the Sox 2007 season is dead. Try to build these guys up instead of keeping that revolving door moving.

santo=dorf
07-21-2007, 06:03 PM
It's amazing how bad this BP has become. Did it start at Wrigley with the return of Toby Hall? Just go back in the archives and look at how the bullpen was viewed at the end of April. One person thought this was the greatest bullpen of all time. :o:

Chicken Dinner
07-21-2007, 06:04 PM
Add a little veteran presence.

chisoxmike
07-21-2007, 06:04 PM
One person thought this was the greatest bullpen of all time. :o:


It was not even that good to begin with.

aryzner
07-21-2007, 06:06 PM
I think they need to try something different. Try the "Float it!" underhand pitch from the movie Rookie of the Year. That's GOTTA produce better results, right?

Right?




:(::(::(:

LITTLE NELL
07-21-2007, 06:10 PM
The only reason the bullpen was good in April was because it was like 32 degrees just about all month. I could get batters out when its that cold.

UserNameBlank
07-21-2007, 06:14 PM
It didn't help that Thornton and MacDougal were not the pitchers they're supposed to be. Remember last year when we were talking about rebuilding the bullpen? It was...we have the back end with Jenks, Thornton, and MacDougal; now we just need some middle relievers. Well, those two have been crap and that has been the worst thing that could happen.

Combine bad luck with a few question marks and you have the White Sox bullpen.

That said, I'm not ready to just throw Thornton and MacDougal out the door. They could be dominant next year, and next year we may have a surplus of bullpen arms...that's just how thing work out sometimes.

Here's what I would do:
-Sign Scott Linebrink.
-Trade for another...maybe Joaquin Benoit who is rumored to be on the market right now?
-Keep Jenks, Thornton, and MacDougal.
-Fill that last spot with someone from the organization (there's your one guy, Lip), whether that be Logan (hope not), Wasserman, Day, Russell, Vasquez, etc. We can hold try outs for the rest of the year...somebody has to step up eventually.
You can't just "sign Linebrink." First you have to give him the money he's looking for, which will be a lot, and then you have to give him the years he's looking for. Then, if he wants to say go somewhere to be a closer, you have to convince him to be a setup man. Then you have to convince him that our 2008 team is good enough to win. Then you have to dissuade him from staying in a comfortable baseball climate (Southern Cali) and probably convince him to move. Then you need Uncle Jerry's approval. I'm not saying that signing him would be a bad move, but there is a lot that goes into picking up a FA. Something tells me we won't be a major player for the best RP on the market.

Joaquin Benoit would be a nice acquistion, but I shudder to think what he will cost. He'll be worth one of our better prospects, and we need all the help we can get.

I honestly just think Ozzie should start managing the pen better and forget all these matchups. Find out which relievers are good enough to stay and which ones aren't, and then go from there. Bringing a guy into a pressure situation, watching him fail, and then bringing him into another pressure situation is not a good idea. It is equally bad IMO to have a guy who is struggling start an inning, get into trouble, and then yank him before he works out of it.

Chicken Dinner
07-21-2007, 06:39 PM
I thought it was the VP/GM's job to fix the bullpen. :o:

TomParrish79
07-21-2007, 07:28 PM
well I wont claim to know how to fix it...but the only thing I suggest is no more Royals bullpen guys.

Malgar 12
07-21-2007, 08:07 PM
-Fill that last spot with someone from the organization (there's your one guy, Lip), whether that be Logan (hope not), Wasserman, Day, Russell, Vasquez, etc. We can hold try outs for the rest of the year...somebody has to step up eventually.

Vazquez will not be in the bullpen.

santo=dorf
07-21-2007, 08:11 PM
Vazquez will not be in the bullpen.
Right, but Vasquez could be an option in the bullpen if he would cut his walk rate down in Charlotte.

oeo
07-21-2007, 08:56 PM
Vazquez will not be in the bullpen.

Carlos Vasquez (http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Carlos%20Vasquez&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=430595), the lefty we got in the Neal Cotts trade.

IlliniSox4Life
07-21-2007, 09:15 PM
Add a little veteran presence.

I'm not convinced yet that any of the guys that have done horribly at this level are lost causes. What we need is to sign a couple of vets who won't be amazing but have a history of being pretty decent and consistent. Then let the rest of the young'ns battle it out for the remaining spots.

Also, get a crafty veteran who can throw some junk. I like the big guys with heat as much as the next person, but somebody who can throw off speed stuff pitching before the fireballers makes their speed that much more effective.

oeo
07-21-2007, 09:34 PM
Here are a couple ideas:

Each RP pitches one full inning. Stop bringing all these guys in during pressure situations! They obviously can't handle it.

When these guys prove they can handle a full inning of work, then they should be given that right. Right now, they're a bunch of one-out men, though.

And on Ozzie again: stop intentionally walking hitters to make the problem even worse! When Ozzie had Wassermann walk Manny it really started the whole explosion today. I don't care if Manny hits an eight-run homer. Let the relievers pitch to everyone!!! No more extra walks!!!Manny Ramirez is one of the best hitters in the game. He put the rookie in a better spot...facing Youkilis instead of Ramirez. Why are you complaining about that?

Ozzie has proven lately that he can not manage a bullpen. When the Sox were trying to still remain in the hunt, one could defend Ozzie going to his matchups because he was trying to get an ineffective reliever out as soon as possible. One could also defend Ozzie for going with any certain reliever in any certain situation simply because the whole pen was garbage. Now, everything is different. The Sox are out of the race and he is still setting up his relievers for failure!If we had good relievers and Ozzie was just ****ing things up, that's one thing. We don't have anybody worth a damn, though.

And again with the setting them up for failure...ha! People said the same thing about Brian Anderson because all he did was face "tough" lefties...if the guy could hit a ****ing righty, then not only would he face righties, he would play everyday (since he can't, he sits in AAA, still unable to hit righties). Yep, Ozzie has it in for the White Sox...he wants to see everyone fail.

I already explained how he put Wasserman in a better position by facing Youkilis...HE JUST DIDN'T GET THE JOB DONE. Then our LOOGY comes in and doesn't throw a single strike. That's just a bad bullpen, not bad managing.

I wish ondafarm were here because we need another "Fire Ozzie" thread. :angry: Yeah the pen sucks, but it's not going to get any better unless it is managed differently. Situations don't matter anymore; the Sox 2007 season is dead. Try to build these guys up instead of keeping that revolving door moving.
Yeah, Razor Shines for president!

A. Cavatica
07-21-2007, 11:24 PM
Threaten their wives and children?

soxinem1
07-22-2007, 12:21 AM
The successful bullpens tend to have a mixture of older and younger pitchers, hard throwers and finesse/funky throwers.

They also have a few having career years or a couple that really pitch over their heads.

Example: Cotts, Hermanson, Politte. COMBINED ERA of 2.00. Two of the three were journeymen, one was a failed starter, and none should have been expected to repeat their feats in 2006, as all f them, especially the more established Hermanson and Politte, had career ERA's more than double that number.

A reliever is only as good as his last season, while starters and position players tend to get more opportunities.

The 1983 White Sox had primarilly sinkerballing Dennis Lamp, side-arming lefty Juan Agosto, side-arming righty Dick Tidrow, 3/4 Salome Barojas.

The 1990 White Sox had one of my favorite all-time bullpens, and look at the different styles: side-arming lefty Radinsky, three-quarter Thigpen, sinkerballing Jones, 3/4 throwing Patterson, and multi-pitch Edwards.

But the main thing that made them tough is you had three different looks. The White sox this year assembled a pen of tossers who basically threw the same type of stuff, and similar approaches to attacking the hitters.

One of the reasons why relievers are relievers is because they lack the stamina or stuff to be starters. Joe Nathan, Mariano Rivera, Lee Smith, Dennis Eckersley, and tons of others. Other than a few guys like Huston Street who were closers as amateurs, all others fit the profile.

I think the most important thing you have to figure out is their mental toughness, and confidence. Your coaches and scouts should have a handle on this, then the stat heads can further evaluate the pitcher and measure the 2 out/RSVP, or L vs. R match-ups, etc.

I think we made the mistake of having too much of the same repatoire among our pen, then once the league figured it out, BOOM.

The bigger mystery is what happens once that big league uniform is put on. Dewon Day, based on his AA K stats, looked like a flamethrower, but has only resembled an arsonist with mediocre stuff, at best, up here.

The Twins, Angels, and Mets have nice bullpens and all of them have guys who throw different pitches, have different motions, etc.

So I say give them different loooks, and you have your pen.

Nellie_Fox
07-22-2007, 12:28 AM
The only reason the bullpen was good in April was because it was like 32 degrees just about all month. I could get batters out when its that cold.No you couldn't.

side-arming lefty Juan AgostoOh, please. Don't remind me.

soxinem1
07-22-2007, 12:38 AM
Oh, please. Don't remind me.

Oh, believe me, I'm no big fan of his, but in 1983 and most of 1984, including the seven scoreless innings (over two days) in the 25 inning game, he was not bad. I believe he actually had the best K/IP ratio on the 1983 Sox.

SoxSpeed22
07-22-2007, 12:47 AM
So I say give them different loooks, and you have your pen.Of course, throwing strikes more than once in a while helps too. That's the most frustrating part.

ThomesHomie
07-22-2007, 02:18 AM
This should of been asked about 2 weeks ago, if not longer. The answer, wake up Kenny Williams from his long vacation and tell him to get into gear.

Wait wait, its not his fault the team is continuing to implode and destroy itselfs, let the pitchers them selfs fix the problem.

Nellie_Fox
07-22-2007, 02:57 AM
This should of been asked about 2 weeks ago, if not longer. The answer, wake up Kenny Williams from his long vacation and tell him to get into gear.

Wait wait, its not his fault the team is continuing to implode and destroy itselfs, let the pitchers them selfs fix the problem.Let's hear what you would do if you were in Kenny's shoes. Criticizing is easy; making realistic proposals is difficult.

Domeshot17
07-22-2007, 03:33 AM
Let's hear what you would do if you were in Kenny's shoes. Criticizing is easy; making realistic proposals is difficult.

Its his mess to fix. He is the one who spent money foolishly in poor spots and decided to gamble on all these project kids instead of going after some of the more proven arms on the market. Im not on the fire Kenny bandwagon, but he really made a big mess here.


I think you have to explore a solution like this.

Closer you are set in Jenks.
You have 1 lefty and 1 righty set in Thorton and Macdougal

so 3 of the 7 bullpen slots are locked in. Here is where Kenny has to change. You dont fill the last 4 with the idea if you throw enough **** on the wall 2 of the 4 will stick. You have to go get 2 more arms, one proven, one mostly reliable, then work the kids in the last 2 spots (as the last 2 pieces of the pen until they prove they can handle more work). The next step is learn how to draft better, because that is the root of our problem. If you look at the best teams in baseball, most of them have built a pen through the draft, not free agency. Out of our entire pen, we have 1 or 2 kids at most we drafted (atleast I think we drafted them) and none of them have shown us anything.

The last thing is you have to get guys with different looks. We had 7 of the exact same pitchers this year, all guys with 94+ heat, sup par command and no one with a dirty breaking ball (Jenks had one until this year). 94-96 doesn't seem as hard the 2nd time around. You have to get a guy who can bring it in the low 90s, hit his spots, and use his offspeed stuff to change things up.

Its not my job to figure out how to fix it, and honestly I probably can't. If this was ps3 I could just sign a bunch of guys and not worry but its not. The only things I know is Kenny has to admit not only is this fault, but you can't win with these guys. He has done the first part, but I really think he believes the guys ge got can be winners, and most of them aren't. Kenny created this garbage pile, and I look forward to him recycling them and then getting gold somewhere else. He has too, because I think another year like this and both he and Ozzie will be on a very hot seat.

oeo
07-22-2007, 03:50 AM
Its his mess to fix. He is the one who spent money foolishly in poor spots and decided to gamble on all these project kids instead of going after some of the more proven arms on the market. Im not on the fire Kenny bandwagon, but he really made a big mess here.

This is total bull****...where was the 'foolish' spending? This is hindsight criticism at it's finest. We didn't break the bank on guys like Pods and Erstad, so don't even say that's 'foolish.'

And he had a back end of the bullpen...they just collapsed. If Thornton and MacDougal do what expected, it makes our bullpen that much better. This team is built on SP, and that means going into the 6th, 7th, 8th inning on every turn. If we had a good Thornton and MacDougal, our starters go 6 or 7, we hand the ball to them, and then to Jenks. Bam...our bullpen is suddenly much better, because the 'project kids' are now in garbage time, with the pressure off.

We could go into 2008 with the same bullpen as this year, and it could be what we thought it was. I do not want that to happen, which is why I said we need to go after Linebrink and then bring in another vet, in case Thornton and MacDougal do not bounce back. If they do (I think they will), we have one nasty bullpen...if they don't, we still have guys to fall back on without spending a ton of money (besides Linebrink).

Frater Perdurabo
07-22-2007, 07:02 AM
I always thought electro-shock therapy would be effective... :D:

Others have posted on it here, but it's worth re-emphasizing. San Diego builds their bullpen with guys who generate outs via ground balls first and strikeouts second. They don't care if they are all right-handed or left-handed, or if they throw 100 or 85; they just take the most effective guys.

When you already have a closer, bullpen can be the "cheapest" thing to fix in the offseason. A middle reliever is cheaper than a leadoff hitter, or a slugging outfielder, or a starting shortstop. A middle reliever definitely is cheaper than a starting pitcher. The challenge is predicting who will have a good season, because as we all know, relievers are notoriously unpredictable.

I wish the Sox would find a few more pitchers who are capable of throwing two or three innings, and then when the starter leaves the game in the fifth or sixth inning, go to a reliever who can pitch the rest of the game or bridge the gap to Jenks. Of course, Ozzie would need to leave the guy in there instead of micromanaging the pen.

russ99
07-22-2007, 09:02 AM
First of all, Linebrink's a FA this offseason and is certainly acquirable at the deadline. I say make the deal to give the pen a set-up guy and take the pressure off the other guys for the 8th inning.

Then worry about re-signing him. Honestly, I think it can be done. It might take some cash and an extra year or two, and also promise to close if Bobby gets injured or loses his job, but a top-performing market-value paid reliever on this staff is absolutely essential, and Kenny will have to pay heck of a lot more this offseason than he will now to get one.

Otsuka, Qualls, Wheeler, Julio and other potential set-up guys are also available. Kenny really has to get at least one reliever at the deadline to put all his players minds at ease a bit, and increase the effectiveness of the rest of the leftover pen.

If Kenny goes with no acquisitions and the same guys with other minor leaguers to be added as necessary the rest of the season he'll fry all these guys mentally, where they'll not be a factor next year.

After that, I'd scour the minors to see what 5-year FA guys look ready to make the jump to the majors and get 4-5 of those who look ready to rebuild the minor-league bullpen.

Grab 1-2 more medium-level FA relievers and declare open competition in Spring Training.

I guess the biggest thing is for Kenny to put his ego aside, as some of these guys who failed in the pen this year had really bad springs, but were given a job just cause Kenny acquired them.

wassagstdu
07-22-2007, 09:13 AM
Ozzie has proven lately that he can not manage a bullpen.
Amazing. You're saying this bullpen, managed differently, could be better? I agree. Ozzie should only put guys in on days that they are effective, and NEVER put in guys who are going to walk 5 straight!

Frontman
07-22-2007, 09:35 AM
Possible bullpen replacements for the rest of the season:


http://www.mrtoys.com/franklin/pics/Franklin-MLB-Pitching-Machine.jpg

Or the Sox could use

http://69.36.242.249/250x400/Bata_Starter_Baseball_Pitching_Machine.jpg

or even

http://www.kidsportsinc.com/Images/Baseball/6606s3-pre.jpg

frankie_ventura
07-22-2007, 09:51 AM
I think Kenny fell in love with the Tigers bullpen of last year. When he saw Rodney and Zimaya throw that heat, he said to himself "if I can find young relievers who can throw gas, the bullpen will dominate." All the relievers he picked up fell into that category. The problem is there is no veteran presence so when one struggles, they all struggle. The Tigers at least had Todd Jones. The oldest guy in the bullpen is Bobby Jenks and he has been there for not even two years.

I think Williams is a good GM but he got cocky this year thinking he can bring in young cheap flamethrowers and that Coop can fix them all. Hopefully he has realized that he can not do that next year and he will look for a good mix of veteran/relievers. Finding a good reliever is like finding lightning in a bottle. Very few middle relievers are consistant for numerous years. In 2005 Politte, Cotts, and Hermanson all had great years and the next year they were toast. However, the one thing about the 2005 bullpen was that they had all been in the majors for several years (except Jenks) so they at least had a track record and experience.

For next year keep McDougal, Thornton, and Jenks but you can not trust McDougal to be the 8th inning guy (too uncertain and injury prone). The rest of the lot needs have some experience. Linebrink might be good but I think the Padres ballpark helps him out a lot.

The bullpen is going to be Williams top priority besides finding a shortstop and at least one quality outfielder. It will be interesting to see what Williams has learned from this mess and what he does to fix it.

Grzegorz
07-22-2007, 09:56 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-070721soxgamer,1,6248845.story

As Ozzie says (over and over) it is up to Kenny... :cool:

ilsox7
07-22-2007, 01:08 PM
First of all, Linebrink's a FA this offseason and is certainly acquirable at the deadline. I say make the deal to give the pen a set-up guy and take the pressure off the other guys for the 8th inning.

Then worry about re-signing him. Honestly, I think it can be done. It might take some cash and an extra year or two, and also promise to close if Bobby gets injured or loses his job, but a top-performing market-value paid reliever on this staff is absolutely essential, and Kenny will have to pay heck of a lot more this offseason than he will now to get one.

Otsuka, Qualls, Wheeler, Julio and other potential set-up guys are also available. Kenny really has to get at least one reliever at the deadline to put all his players minds at ease a bit, and increase the effectiveness of the rest of the leftover pen.

If Kenny goes with no acquisitions and the same guys with other minor leaguers to be added as necessary the rest of the season he'll fry all these guys mentally, where they'll not be a factor next year.

After that, I'd scour the minors to see what 5-year FA guys look ready to make the jump to the majors and get 4-5 of those who look ready to rebuild the minor-league bullpen.

Grab 1-2 more medium-level FA relievers and declare open competition in Spring Training.

I guess the biggest thing is for Kenny to put his ego aside, as some of these guys who failed in the pen this year had really bad springs, but were given a job just cause Kenny acquired them.

How do you know all of these guys are available? And will you be one of the first people going crazy at how much KW has to give up to get one? But mostly, if all of these guys are available, think about why there has not been one trade from contending teams, who need bullpen help, to get one of them.

ThomesHomie
07-22-2007, 01:30 PM
Let's hear what you would do if you were in Kenny's shoes. Criticizing is easy; making realistic proposals is difficult.

I would have to think about that, but I'm sure we could of got at least one decent closer, even if we had to deal a few.

Something could of been done, besides whats going on now.

ilsox7
07-22-2007, 01:31 PM
I would have to think about that, but I'm sure we could of got at least one decent closer, even if we had to deal a few.

Something could of been done, besides whats going on now.

Well, if you're so certain, tell us who is available and what offers were on the table that could have made a deal happen.

ThomesHomie
07-22-2007, 01:32 PM
We could go into 2008 with the same bullpen as this year, and it could be what we thought it was.

Yeah, do you want to take that chance ? We took the chance on the starters this year, and it some what worked out so far.

areilly
07-22-2007, 02:05 PM
Aim high: see if Qualls, Wheeler, Shields, Capps etc. really are available. Build a package accordingly. Make a solid run for Linebrink in the off-season. Give up on this "build a team through reclamation projects" mentality. Avoid picking players off the scrap heap of other teams' ****ty bullpens (CHC and KC for starters).

Keep Jenks, Thornton and Logan...and MacDougal if he can get back to form. Move, demote or release the rest. See how Haeger and Wassermann pan out. Fill the two holes with veterans. Then get to work on the rest of this team's problems.

russ99
07-22-2007, 02:11 PM
How do you know all of these guys are available? And will you be one of the first people going crazy at how much KW has to give up to get one? But mostly, if all of these guys are available, think about why there has not been one trade from contending teams, who need bullpen help, to get one of them.

Yes, These guys are supposedly available at the deadline. My info is from news sources, potential FA info, and yes, rumor sites. The only guy I wouldn't go after for the bullpen is Gagne, since Boras is playing hardball with his contract, and he wants to close.

The problem here is not so much the rest of this year, but 2008. It's essential that Kenny starts to work on this now, or once again, there won't be payroll in the FA period, or he keeps hoping or his "market correction" that won't happen, and he'll have to use quick-fixes and marginal minor league trades to fix the bullpen, and this will continue to be a problem.

As to your issue with giving up talent to fix the bullpen, that happens with any trade. Think of this, barring trades, our rotation for the next 1-2 years will have Buehrle, Vazquez, Garland, Danks and a 4th/5th guy in it, likely Broadway and Gio. Why not deal some of our other pitching prospects to start to fix an obvious problem area which will carry over into 2008, if Kenny does nothing about it.

ThomesHomie
07-22-2007, 02:14 PM
Well, if you're so certain, tell us who is available and what offers were on the table that could have made a deal happen.

I'm getting a sense that you're trying to say nothing is out there... like I said I would have to do some research and see whats out there. Its Sunday, I don't feel like doing that.... its not my job its Kenny's .

To say we could get nothing better then what we have is absurd.

russ99
07-22-2007, 02:16 PM
I'm getting a sense that you're trying to say nothing is out there... like I said I would have to do some research and see whats out there. Its Sunday, I don't feel like doing that.... its not my job its Kenny's .

To say we could get nothing better then what we have is absurd.

It's the trading deadline. Need players are acquired every year without giving up all-stars. Every other team does this, why not the Sox?

oeo
07-22-2007, 02:18 PM
Yeah, do you want to take that chance ? We took the chance on the starters this year, and it some what worked out so far.

Did you just decide to stop reading there, or what? The sentence, right after starts...
I do not want that to happen...

ilsox7
07-22-2007, 02:18 PM
I'm getting a sense that you're trying to say nothing is out there... like I said I would have to do some research and see whats out there. Its Sunday, I don't feel like doing that.... its not my job its Kenny's .

To say we could get nothing better then what we have is absurd.

What's absurd is that you think KW is asleep at the wheel. You (nor I) have absolutely no clue as to who is available or what the price is. You can't even take a few minutes to come up with a legitimate trade proposal, yet you can sit back and criticize KW for being on a supposed vacation? Again, please go tell me what other teams with bullpen problems have acquired this year. Are all of those GMs on vacation, too?

ilsox7
07-22-2007, 02:19 PM
It's the trading deadline. Need players are acquired every year without giving up all-stars. Every other team does this, why not the Sox?

Go find me one good reliever who has been traded this year.

oeo
07-22-2007, 02:20 PM
I'm getting a sense that you're trying to say nothing is out there... like I said I would have to do some research and see whats out there. Its Sunday, I don't feel like doing that.... its not my job its Kenny's .

To say we could get nothing better then what we have is absurd.

Is this all anyone is going to say in this thread? We all know it isn't your job, but the idea of the thread is to think of ways to fix it. If you don't want to do that, then why did you come here just to complain about what Kenny didn't do?

ilsox7
07-22-2007, 02:22 PM
Yes, These guys are supposedly available at the deadline. My info is from news sources, potential FA info, and yes, rumor sites. The only guy I wouldn't go after for the bullpen is Gagne, since Boras is playing hardball with his contract, and he wants to close.

The problem here is not so much the rest of this year, but 2008. It's essential that Kenny starts to work on this now, or once again, there won't be payroll in the FA period, or he keeps hoping or his "market correction" that won't happen, and he'll have to use quick-fixes and marginal minor league trades to fix the bullpen, and this will continue to be a problem.

As to your issue with giving up talent to fix the bullpen, that happens with any trade. Think of this, barring trades, our rotation for the next 1-2 years will have Buehrle, Vazquez, Garland, Danks and a 4th/5th guy in it, likely Broadway and Gio. Why not deal some of our other pitching prospects to start to fix an obvious problem area which will carry over into 2008, if Kenny does nothing about it.

Many of the rumors out there are simply columnists throwing around names. But even if you believe every name out there is actually available, you still have absolutely no clue what it will take to get them in a trade. Of course you're going to have to give up talent, but if so many solid bullpen arms are available for such reasonable prices, then why have there been no trades by ANY teams?

Chicken Dinner
07-22-2007, 02:27 PM
Many of the rumors out there are simply columnists throwing around names. But even if you believe every name out there is actually available, you still have absolutely no clue what it will take to get them in a trade. Of course you're going to have to give up talent, but if so many solid bullpen arms are available for such reasonable prices, then why have there been no trades by ANY teams?

It must be that "market correction" that Kenny keeps talking about.
:smile:

ilsox7
07-22-2007, 02:29 PM
It must be that "market correction" that Kenny keeps talking about.
:smile:

It's a completely different topic, but I think the market will (and maybe has) already corrected itself a bit. The Sox got Mark to sign for a much lower deal than Zito and I doubt you will see another Soriano type deal. Hell, even the proposed Zambrano deal is much more reasonable than what Zito got. So I think the top of the market has corrected, but the big question lies with what happens to the middle of the market.

ThomesHomie
07-22-2007, 02:33 PM
It's the trading deadline. Need players are acquired every year without giving up all-stars. Every other team does this, why not the Sox?

Cause Kenny believe they can fix themselves, he said it time and time again, we have the right guys, they just are not getting it done. Ok so how long are these "right guys" going to have a chance.

Is this all anyone is going to say in this thread? We all know it isn't your job, but the idea of the thread is to think of ways to fix it. If you don't want to do that, then why did you come here just to complain about what Kenny didn't do?

Look at how bad our bullpen is this year, everyone knows it yet no changes are made.... So what can we assume Kenny is doing ? Keep giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Go find me one good reliever who has been traded this year.

Go show me one bullpen thats as bad as ours, and then show me that there not making any changes.

ilsox7
07-22-2007, 02:35 PM
Cause Kenny believe they can fix themselves, he said it time and time again, we have the right guys, they just are not getting it done. Ok so how long are these "right guys" going to have a chance.

The first problem is that you believe everything KW says to the media. Also, look at the number of guys sent down and called up. They have tried, I think, 12 different guys in the bullpen this year. Actions speak louder than words. KW is trying different things, but right now it is not working.



Go find me one good reliever who has been traded this year.

Go show me one bullpen thats as bad as ours, and then show me that there not making any changes.


Tampa Bay.

ThomesHomie
07-22-2007, 02:39 PM
The first problem is that you believe everything KW says to the media. Also, look at the number of guys sent down and called up. They have tried, I think, 12 different guys in the bullpen this year. Actions speak louder than words. KW is trying different things, but right now it is not working.

I don't believe we have the right players anymore in the bull pen, I do believe Kenny thinks so, why might you ask..... because nothing is being done.

I don't care about him sending up, calling people up, look at our offensive roster then ask yourself why people like Dewon Day is here.

Tampa never has a chance :) , we actually have or had a chance, yet we do nothing about our bull pen.

ilsox7
07-22-2007, 02:50 PM
I don't believe we have the right players anymore in the bull pen, I do believe Kenny thinks so, why might you ask..... because nothing is being done.

I don't care about him sending up, calling people up, look at our offensive roster then ask yourself why people like Dewon Day is here.

Tampa never has a chance :) , we actually have or had a chance, yet we do nothing about our bull pen.

1. You refuse to believe that the market for above average relievers is not an active one. You have not been able to show us one trade made for a good reliever in all of baseball. Yet, some how this is solely KW's problem.

2. When asked to maybe come up with some reasonable trades, in your mind, you refuse to do so.

3. You answer questions with questions, instead of either admitting you cannot find an answer or actually finding an answer.

What's the point of having a discussion if all you're going to do is sit back and criticize KW without looking deeper into the issue of whether KW even can fix the problem via trade or, if he can, what the cost to us in 2008 and beyond would be?

ThomesHomie
07-22-2007, 03:19 PM
1. You refuse to believe that the market for above average relievers is not an active one. You have not been able to show us one trade made for a good reliever in all of baseball. Yet, some how this is solely KW's problem.

2. When asked to maybe come up with some reasonable trades, in your mind, you refuse to do so.

3. You answer questions with questions, instead of either admitting you cannot find an answer or actually finding an answer.

What's the point of having a discussion if all you're going to do is sit back and criticize KW without looking deeper into the issue of whether KW even can fix the problem via trade or, if he can, what the cost to us in 2008 and beyond would be?

Like I said, I'm not researching anything today on a Sunday, we can get someone better then what we have, its that simple.

Your saying we can't ... ok then I guess our bull pen will continue to suck then... until someone does become available.

areilly
07-22-2007, 03:27 PM
Go show me one bullpen thats as bad as ours, and then show me that there not making any changes.


Tampa Bay.


That we're in the same league as the D-Rays should indicate just how far this bullpen has fallen...and I imagine today's game won't help.

Tragg
07-22-2007, 03:42 PM
To improve the bullpen, use some of our young pitchers with talent as relief pitchers for a couple of years and then shift them into the rotation. Floyd, Gio come to mind.

Or, find some ex starters on the cheap like we did with Polite and Hermanson....maybe try Contreras there.

Do not spend a bunch of resources on career middle relievers....that's what we did this year and to a man they stunk (Aardsma, Sisco, MacDougal; the prior year it was Riske). The Cubs did that and got Howry and Eyre. Forget it.

ThomesHomie
07-22-2007, 03:58 PM
To improve the bullpen, use some of our young pitchers with talent as relief pitchers for a couple of years and then shift them into the rotation. Floyd, Gio come to mind.

Or, find some ex starters on the cheap like we did with Polite and Hermanson....maybe try Contreras there.

Do not spend a bunch of resources on career middle relievers....that's what we did this year and to a man they stunk (Aardsma, Sisco, MacDougal; the prior year it was Riske). The Cubs did that and got Howry and Eyre. Forget it.

See something like that I would like, you can tell which pitchers should not even be up here now. Dewon Day comes to mind, so does Bukvitch , yeah I don't feel like finding his spelling on his name.

Look where Bobby Jenks came up from, even getting some other good prospects would help.

Lip Man 1
07-22-2007, 07:54 PM
I like some of the points brought up by OEO, User and Soxinem. These are very good points.

I totally agree with the notion that this 'matchup' garbage has to end or at least be drastically limited. Ozzie himself, twice said in published stories this off season that was exactly what he was going to do...once the season started though it was a different story.

My only other comment (based on OEO's response) is that MacDougal has now missed time in three different seasons (including this one), because of arm issues. He may in fact never be right again.

Thonton is a trickier matter. He's had one good season in his career, 2006...was that a fluke like Politte's and Cotts' was in 2005? or is there something good that can be brought out on a consistent basis?

I don't know the answer to that one.

Lip

soxinem1
07-22-2007, 08:08 PM
Why all this clamoring for Scott Linebrink? Yeah, he has always had a decent arm, but compare SD's park to the Cell. Linebrink throws a few long ones, and is very much a flyball pitcher.

He's also blown about 15 leads the past year in a half. Do we need to pay top dollar for that? We already have it.

UserNameBlank
07-22-2007, 11:09 PM
Amazing. You're saying this bullpen, managed differently, could be better? I agree. Ozzie should only put guys in on days that they are effective, and NEVER put in guys who are going to walk 5 straight!
The point I was trying to make was that the season is over, it doesn't matter anymore, so let these guys start out with a clean inning and work out of it. I don't care if Ozzie say brings out Bukvich to start the 8th and he allows 10 runs before finally working himself out of the inning.

I guess some people can't see a reason to fault Ozzie for anything, but to me it looks like the way he's running the pen isn't working and it isn't going to start getting better unless he comes up with a different approach. The problem with our pen is mental for just about everyone because they can't throw strikes in pressure situations. Isn't it the manager's number one responsibility to get the most of out his players? No matter how you slice it, Ozzie certainly is not doing that.

CharlieN2008
07-22-2007, 11:17 PM
I think Charlie Haeger, should have been up all season. So far So good. I am looking forward to his start on Tuesday game 2..

UserNameBlank
07-22-2007, 11:53 PM
I like some of the points brought up by OEO, User and Soxinem. These are very good points.

I totally agree with the notion that this 'matchup' garbage has to end or at least be drastically limited. Ozzie himself, twice said in published stories this off season that was exactly what he was going to do...once the season started though it was a different story.

My only other comment (based on OEO's response) is that MacDougal has now missed time in three different seasons (including this one), because of arm issues. He may in fact never be right again.

Thonton is a trickier matter. He's had one good season in his career, 2006...was that a fluke like Politte's and Cotts' was in 2005? or is there something good that can be brought out on a consistent basis?

I don't know the answer to that one.

Lip
I think Thornton's the hardest to tell out of anyone. Could it be that he's generally been affected by the craptacular performance of the rest of the bullpen sans Jenks? Was he a fluke? Or is he just one of those typical relievers who will have a somewhat lengthy up-and-down career?

Some of these guys have to perform better next year, either with the Sox or in another uniform. The talent is there but could we have a collection of the proverbial million dollar arms with ten cent brains? Maybe all we need is 2 or 3 guys to start throwing the ball decently and the others will follow suit. It's just so hard to grasp the abysmal failure that has been our bullpen. I suggested a change in Ozzie's managerial style but even then, it's up to the players to produce. Can they even do that if they are babied?

Nellie_Fox
07-23-2007, 01:02 AM
Like I said, I'm not researching anything today on a Sunday, we can get someone better then what we have, its that simple.

Your saying we can't ... ok then I guess our bull pen will continue to suck then... until someone does become available.In other words, you don't have an answer. Fine. Just don't say Kenny is "sleeping on the job" unless you know who he should be trading for and what should be offered.

Isn't it the manager's number one responsibility to get the most of out his players? No matter how you slice it, Ozzie certainly is not doing that.Maybe he is; have you considered that? Maybe he's getting all that the current bullpen can give. It doesn't seem to matter who he brings in, they get lit up.

I think Charlie Haeger, should have been up all season. So far So good. I am looking forward to his start on Tuesday game 2..I like Haeger. I like knuckleballers. But you have to be aware that knuckleballers are rarely mediocre on any given day. They are either good or terrible. And I don't see WSI posters living with that. On the days when the knuckler hangs, and he gets thumped, there will be people in here screaming for him to be released.

ilsox7
07-23-2007, 01:07 AM
I like Haeger. I like knuckleballers. But you have to be aware that knuckleballers are rarely mediocre on any given day. They are either good or terrible. And I don't see WSI posters living with that. On the days when the knuckler hangs, and he gets thumped, there will be people in here screaming for him to be released.

Luckily WSI posters do not run the team! A good knuckleballer is the perfect #5 starter, IMO. Over the course of the season, his numbers will balance out, but you have the dependability that he will take the ball every turn.

oeo
07-23-2007, 01:10 AM
Thonton is a trickier matter. He's had one good season in his career, 2006...was that a fluke like Politte's and Cotts' was in 2005? or is there something good that can be brought out on a consistent basis?

I don't know the answer to that one.

Lip

The reason I personally see something in Thornton (and MacDougal for that matter), is because they have shown flashes of what they were in 2006.

Thornton did not have anywhere near the year that Cotts had in 2005, so I just don't see the similarities at all. Cotts was simply dominant, while Thornton was just very solid. As for Politte, not only did he have a career year (after years and years of mediocrity)...his arm was dead; no similarities there, either.

Nellie_Fox
07-23-2007, 01:12 AM
Luckily WSI posters do not run the team!No kidding!

russ99
07-23-2007, 09:37 AM
The first problem is that you believe everything KW says to the media. Also, look at the number of guys sent down and called up. They have tried, I think, 12 different guys in the bullpen this year. Actions speak louder than words. KW is trying different things, but right now it is not working.


Tampa Bay.



Tampa Bay got Witasick after he was waived by the A's. At least they're trying to get an experienced reliever.

Plenty of relievers have been traded this year: Capellan, Maroth, Julio, Benitez, Messenger, Kim and Ledezma.

Also guys signed after waived such as Roberto Hernandez and Troy Pervcival.

There are other options than Kenny's "plug in another minor leaguer" plan.

oeo
07-23-2007, 09:42 AM
Plenty of relievers have been traded this year: Capellan, Maroth, Julio, Benitez, Messenger, Kim and Ledezma.

You've just named a combination of bad relievers, a bad starting pitcher, two guys from our division, and a crazy. Sign me up!

Also guys signed after waived such as Roberto Hernandez and Troy Pervcival.

Why not just bring Jeff Nelson back, again? That worked out well.

wilburaga
07-23-2007, 10:41 AM
Step 1:

Turn Day into Knight (as in Charlotte).

Steps 2 and Thereafter:

I don't know.

W

soxinem1
07-23-2007, 10:56 AM
Tampa Bay got Witasick after he was waived by the A's. At least they're trying to get an experienced reliever.

Plenty of relievers have been traded this year: Capellan, Maroth, Julio, Benitez, Messenger, Kim and Ledezma.

Also guys signed after waived such as Roberto Hernandez and Troy Pervcival.

There are other options than Kenny's "plug in another minor leaguer" plan.

These two mystify me as to why we did not make a move for one or both of them. Even Benitez would not have been much of a gamble, as SF is on the hook for the rest of his salary anyway.

MisterB
07-23-2007, 12:11 PM
These two mystify me as to why we did not make a move for one or both of them. Even Benitez would not have been much of a gamble, as SF is on the hook for the rest of his salary anyway.

1. I think Witasick's 9+ ERA with the Rays shows why the A's waived him.

2. The Julio-for-Kim trade happened in mid May, when the bullpen was just staring their collapse - they did look pretty damn good in April.

russ99
07-23-2007, 02:04 PM
1. I think Witasick's 9+ ERA with the Rays shows why the A's waived him.

2. The Julio-for-Kim trade happened in mid May, when the bullpen was just staring their collapse - they did look pretty damn good in April.

My point being there is and was relievers available, and Kenny's just replacing from within for another reason, be it budget, high asking price, or pride that his preseason acquisitions can still perform.

ThomesHomie
07-23-2007, 07:09 PM
In other words, you don't have an answer. Fine. Just don't say Kenny is "sleeping on the job" unless you know who he should be trading for and what should be offered.


I won't say sleeping on the job, I believe they are going to penny pinch and pull the trigger either on the off season of right before the deadline.

After seeing how the team is going though, not sure if it would make that much sense to invest in a pitcher right now.

UserNameBlank
07-23-2007, 09:05 PM
Luckily WSI posters do not run the team! A good knuckleballer is the perfect #5 starter, IMO. Over the course of the season, his numbers will balance out, but you have the dependability that he will take the ball every turn.
Our no. 5 starters the last two seasons have been dependable, and they are real major league pitchers, not junkballing wildcards. I know some people love the knuckler, but to me it's not worth it unless you're a horse**** team like we are and you need someone to eat innings. The pitcher doesn't know where the ball will go, the catcher doesn't know where the ball will go, runners have a green light all the time, there are a ton of WP and passed balls... it's just not worth it to me. I like Charlie and everything, but I hope the Sox dump him off on someone else and get a real pitcher that can eat innings and perform well.

ilsox7
07-24-2007, 12:04 AM
My point being there is and was relievers available, and Kenny's just replacing from within for another reason, be it budget, high asking price, or pride that his preseason acquisitions can still perform.

The challenge was to name above average (or even average) relievers who have been traded. Not awful pitchers.

ilsox7
07-24-2007, 12:05 AM
Our no. 5 starters the last two seasons have been dependable, and they are real major league pitchers, not junkballing wildcards. I know some people love the knuckler, but to me it's not worth it unless you're a horse**** team like we are and you need someone to eat innings. The pitcher doesn't know where the ball will go, the catcher doesn't know where the ball will go, runners have a green light all the time, there are a ton of WP and passed balls... it's just not worth it to me. I like Charlie and everything, but I hope the Sox dump him off on someone else and get a real pitcher that can eat innings and perform well.

Boston has done just fine with Wakefield over the years.

Lip Man 1
07-24-2007, 12:10 AM
I don't have an issue with Charlie because he throws the knuckler, I mean the White Sox have had three of the most successful pitchers in their history throw the pitch...Wilber Wood, Hoyt Wilhelm and Eddie Fisher.

My concerns are that he may be over hyped like many Sox prospects which is a different matter.

True... the knuckler is a tough pitch to catch if you haven't seen it and remember you can't use the oversized mit anymore. J.C. Martin regularly led the league in passed balls for example but that didn't seem to stop the Sox from winning a ton of games from 63 through 67 did it?

The way this season has gone stick him in there and see if he has what it takes to stick with the club in 08...I mean it's not like the Sox are going to lose anything more then maybe a few games and they'll lose a ton with or without him.

Lip

UserNameBlank
07-24-2007, 12:11 AM
Boston has done just fine with Wakefield over the years.
True, but I hope we aim a little higher than a junkballer. Maybe it's just me, but the four things I hate seeing from a pitcher more than anything are walks, stolen bases, wild pitches, and passed balls. Knucklers regularly provide a healthy dose of all four.

ilsox7
07-24-2007, 12:15 AM
True, but I hope we aim a little higher than a junkballer. Maybe it's just me, but the four things I hate seeing from a pitcher more than anything are walks, stolen bases, wild pitches, and passed balls. Knucklers regularly provide a healthy dose of all four.

And so do crappy 5th starters. If Haeger proves to be a good major league pitcher, he adds value to this team b/c he can pitch on short rest. If he sucks, then of course it is not worth it. The other advantage is that good knuckleballers do not seem to break the bank. So, if it comes down to it, I would love to see Haeger as our #5 b/c of his versatility.

UserNameBlank
07-24-2007, 12:26 AM
And so do crappy 5th starters. If Haeger proves to be a good major league pitcher, he adds value to this team b/c he can pitch on short rest. If he sucks, then of course it is not worth it. The other advantage is that good knuckleballers do not seem to break the bank. So, if it comes down to it, I would love to see Haeger as our #5 b/c of his versatility.
I can't disagree with that, it's just a personal preforance I guess. We can't always have guys like Danks and Vazquez as no. 5's. Sooner or later, maybe even by next year, we'll have someone who really sucks it hard and Haeger will get his chance.

russ99
07-24-2007, 08:55 AM
The challenge was to name above average (or even average) relievers who have been traded. Not awful pitchers.

Teams are obviously going to try to hang on to the few above-average relievers, but I still believe some will be moved in the next week.

But even the average and below-average guys with major league experience are better options than what we have now.

slavko
07-24-2007, 11:31 AM
How do you fix the bullpen? How do you fix the bullpen? You have a steady stream of pitching talent that you develop at the minor league level that you bring up to the ML club to replace the parts that are failing. Do we need Columbo to tell us this? We don't have such talent? Therein lies the problem.

ilsox7
07-24-2007, 11:34 AM
Teams are obviously going to try to hang on to the few above-average relievers, but I still believe some will be moved in the next week.

But even the average and below-average guys with major league experience are better options than what we have now.

And worth giving up prospects for? I don't think so. If some are moved in the next week for reasonable return and KW does nothing, then folks can start talk about sleeping at the wheel. Until then, there is no evidence that KW is on vacation.

russ99
07-24-2007, 11:51 AM
And worth giving up prospects for? I don't think so. If some are moved in the next week for reasonable return and KW does nothing, then folks can start talk about sleeping at the wheel. Until then, there is no evidence that KW is on vacation.

I take some solace in Kenny's comments from yesterday. He obviously knows that something needs to be done with the pen. I'll give him another week...

slavko
07-24-2007, 10:37 PM
And worth giving up prospects for? I don't think so. If some are moved in the next week for reasonable return and KW does nothing, then folks can start talk about sleeping at the wheel. Until then, there is no evidence that KW is on vacation.

.......and these prospects would be who?????????? (We have prospects?)

rdivaldi
07-24-2007, 11:21 PM
.......and these prospects would be who?????????? (We have prospects?)

Don't be a goof. Gonzalez, de Los Santos, Egbert, Russell and lesser known guys like Fernando Hernandez.