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View Full Version : Bob Ryan: What happened to the White Sox?


Fenway
07-20-2007, 09:52 AM
Sometimes it is interesting when media in other cities try to figure out what is wrong....

an example

Globe 10.0: White Sox (http://www.boston.com/partners/worldnow/nesn.html?catID=80766&clipid=1601769&autoStart=true&mute=false&continuous=true)

also

Francona talks about Dice-BB (http://www.boston.com/partners/worldnow/nesn.html?catID=80767&clipid=1601736&autoStart=true&mute=false&continuous=true)

and

Lugo talks after Sox' loss to Chicago (http://www.boston.com/partners/worldnow/nesn.html?catID=80767&clipid=1601699&autoStart=true&mute=false&continuous=true)

Dan Mega
07-20-2007, 10:17 AM
I can't get the links to work?

jackbrohamer
07-20-2007, 10:19 AM
Wow. Sox have nosedived because they traded Aaron Rowand. How insightful; he must be a lurker here.

cheezheadsoxfan
07-20-2007, 10:27 AM
As soon as he mentioned Rowan, my head hit the keyboard. And it doesn't take a lot of insight to see our pen sucks. :rolleyes:

southside rocks
07-20-2007, 10:44 AM
Wow. Sox have nosedived because they traded Aaron Rowand. How insightful; he must be a lurker here.

Did he quote the Truthosaurus, too? :redneck The clubhouse chemistry is forever destroyed, remember? :rolleyes:

champagne030
07-20-2007, 10:49 AM
Wow. Sox have nosedived because they traded Aaron Rowand. How insightful; he must be a lurker here.

As soon as he mentioned Rowan, my head hit the keyboard. And it doesn't take a lot of insight to see our pen sucks. :rolleyes:

I think you missed his point. Not that Rowand was so valuable, but we've been searching for a CF for 2 season now, either because of ineffectiveness, injury, personal beefs or stubborness. He said he loved Thome, but the trade created a massive hole in our team and it hasn't been filled for reasons listed above.

eriqjaffe
07-20-2007, 11:34 AM
but the trade created a massive hole in our teamThe Sox did just fine in the first half of last year with Anderson hitting under the Mendoza line. The main problem last year was that the starting pitching was inconsistent (at best) in the second half. This year, the problem as been everything else.

HerzogVon
07-20-2007, 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackbrohamer
Wow. Sox have nosedived because they traded Aaron Rowand. How insightful; he must be a lurker here.

>>Did he quote the Truthosaurus, too? The clubhouse chemistry is forever destroyed, remember?<<

Yup. Just keep telling yourselves that trading Rowand wasn't a mistake, and that there was no chemistry on that 2005 team. Go ahead, exonerate KW and keep living in denial. Oh, and get ready to "enjoy" 2008 after Kenny "The Genius" works some more of his magic.

Maybe the reason you - ( collective ) - "see stupid people", is because you neglected to throw a blanket over that mirror?

Tragg
07-20-2007, 11:54 AM
I think you missed his point. Not that Rowand was so valuable, but we've been searching for a CF for 2 season now, either because of ineffectiveness, injury, personal beefs or stubborness. He said he loved Thome, but the trade created a massive hole in our team and it hasn't been filled for reasons listed above.
I think he's right about not finding a CF, although that isn't anything close to the sole reason for the Sox troubles.

Frankly, I look at Boston and I see a lot of veteran stiffs: Lowell, Crisp, Lugo ($8 mill for this guy makes $1.9 mill for Cintron seem reasonable), 15 million for Drew.
But they have great pitching.

Rocky Soprano
07-20-2007, 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackbrohamer
Wow. Sox have nosedived because they traded Aaron Rowand. How insightful; he must be a lurker here.

>>Did he quote the Truthosaurus, too? The clubhouse chemistry is forever destroyed, remember?<<

Yup. Just keep telling yourselves that trading Rowand wasn't a mistake, and that there was no chemistry on that 2005 team. Go ahead, exonerate KW and keep living in denial. Oh, and get ready to "enjoy" 2008 after Kenny "The Genius" works some more of his magic.

Maybe the reason you - ( collective ) - "see stupid people", is because you neglected to throw a blanket over that mirror?

If you honestly think that by simply adding Rowand to this current team would solve all issues, then you my friend are beyond help.

TheOldRoman
07-20-2007, 12:01 PM
Yup. Just keep telling yourselves that trading Rowand wasn't a mistake, and that there was no chemistry on that 2005 team. Go ahead, exonerate KW and keep living in denial. Oh, and get ready to "enjoy" 2008 after Kenny "The Genius" works some more of his magic.

Maybe the reason you - ( collective ) - "see stupid people", is because you neglected to throw a blanket over that mirror?Combining a stupid, ridiculous post with insults for people who disagree with you "see rational people". Sweet.

Fenway
07-20-2007, 12:03 PM
I think he's right about not finding a CF, although that isn't anything close to the sole reason for the Sox troubles.

Frankly, I look at Boston and I see a lot of veteran stiffs: Lowell, Crisp, Lugo ($8 mill for this guy makes $1.9 mill for Cintron seem reasonable), 15 million for Drew.
But they have great pitching.

Mike Lowell certainly hasn't been a stiff in 2007

But 4 more years of J D Drew :whiner:

INSox56
07-20-2007, 12:05 PM
I think you missed his point. Not that Rowand was so valuable, but we've been searching for a CF for 2 season now, either because of ineffectiveness, injury, personal beefs or stubborness. He said he loved Thome, but the trade created a massive hole in our team and it hasn't been filled for reasons listed above.
Agreed

Quote:
Yup. Just keep telling yourselves that trading Rowand wasn't a mistake, and that there was no chemistry on that 2005 team. Go ahead, exonerate KW and keep living in denial. Oh, and get ready to "enjoy" 2008 after Kenny "The Genius" works some more of his magic.

Maybe the reason you - ( collective ) - "see stupid people", is because you neglected to throw a blanket over that mirror?
Disagree and ***. Personal attacks usually go over so well don't they.:rolleyes::rolleyes: I'm sure Rowand leaving was the reason Cotts and Politte fell on their faces and that our SPs all sucked complete ass last year.

itsnotrequired
07-20-2007, 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackbrohamer
Wow. Sox have nosedived because they traded Aaron Rowand. How insightful; he must be a lurker here.

>>Did he quote the Truthosaurus, too? The clubhouse chemistry is forever destroyed, remember?<<

Yup. Just keep telling yourselves that trading Rowand wasn't a mistake, and that there was no chemistry on that 2005 team. Go ahead, exonerate KW and keep living in denial. Oh, and get ready to "enjoy" 2008 after Kenny "The Genius" works some more of his magic.

Maybe the reason you - ( collective ) - "see stupid people", is because you neglected to throw a blanket over that mirror?

I have yet to see one shred of evidence that proves beyond all doubt that trading Rowand is the cause of the Sox woes. They are not necessarily inclusive events.

Since it can't be proved either way, those pining over Rowand should give it a rest.

chaerulez
07-20-2007, 12:09 PM
I think you missed his point. Not that Rowand was so valuable, but we've been searching for a CF for 2 season now, either because of ineffectiveness, injury, personal beefs or stubborness. He said he loved Thome, but the trade created a massive hole in our team and it hasn't been filled for reasons listed above.

Without Thome we'd have a massive hole at the DH position. Do people remember in 2005 Carl Everett was not that good? Oh I forgot, we're not suppose to boo him because he won us a title and despite the fact he made some ******* comments towards the organization because we replaced him with a MUCH better player. The OPS we gained with Thome over Everett was more than we lost with Anderson over Rowand. Not to mention Anderson's defense was just as good if not better than Rowand. Rowand's having a very good year, no doubt, but it remains to be seen if this is just a career year or an actual breakout season.

MISoxfan
07-20-2007, 12:27 PM
Without Thome we'd have a massive hole at the DH position. Do people remember in 2005 Carl Everett was not that good? Oh I forgot, we're not suppose to boo him because he won us a title and despite the fact he made some ******* comments towards the organization because we replaced him with a MUCH better player. The OPS we gained with Thome over Everett was more than we lost with Anderson over Rowand. Not to mention Anderson's defense was just as good if not better than Rowand. Rowand's having a very good year, no doubt, but it remains to be seen if this is just a career year or an actual breakout season.

Its probably a career year, but its really not that much better than the year he had in 2004. Aaron Rowand is a legitimate centerfielder, something we have lacked since he left. I still think it was the right move to make, but it needed to be coupled with a better back up plan at CF.

itsnotrequired
07-20-2007, 12:34 PM
Its probably a career year, but its really not that much better than the year he had in 2004. Aaron Rowand is a legitimate centerfielder, something we have lacked since he left. I still think it was the right move to make, but it needed to be coupled with a better back up plan at CF.

But there was a backup plan. Anderson was to be the centerfielder with Mackowiak as backup. Then Erstad was brought on this season as even further backup. But Anderson didn't perform (and appears to be in the doghouse, for whatever reason) and is now injured in Charlotte. Erstad got hurt too. With Pods being injured, CF suddenly became very lean.

I mean, it isn't like KW traded Rowand and said "Eh, I'm we'll figure something out". They had a plan.

jenn2080
07-20-2007, 01:11 PM
I heart Aaron Roward debate threads. :redface::bandance:

kittle42
07-20-2007, 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackbrohamer
Wow. Sox have nosedived because they traded Aaron Rowand. How insightful; he must be a lurker here.

>>Did he quote the Truthosaurus, too? The clubhouse chemistry is forever destroyed, remember?<<

Yup. Just keep telling yourselves that trading Rowand wasn't a mistake, and that there was no chemistry on that 2005 team. Go ahead, exonerate KW and keep living in denial. Oh, and get ready to "enjoy" 2008 after Kenny "The Genius" works some more of his magic.

Maybe the reason you - ( collective ) - "see stupid people", is because you neglected to throw a blanket over that mirror?

The posts above have pretty much attacked this all it needs to be. Rowand sure has turned those Phils around, no?

oeo
07-20-2007, 01:16 PM
Wow. Sox have nosedived because they traded Aaron Rowand. How insightful; he must be a lurker here.

Yep, and Ozzie's new nickname is 'The Comet.' :rolleyes:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but many people said a season like this would make Ozzie blow up. I'm still waiting for that complete blow up...or is that people really don't know Ozzie the way they think they do?

HotelWhiteSox
07-20-2007, 02:07 PM
I will go with a combo of injuries and a soso offseason. Now, I don't think you can just blame injuries, especially when you take into account how some of the guys are "injury prone"

The offseason part focuses on the bullpen, but I think we'd at least be .500 or over without as many injuries. Losing Crede, with the type of player he was becoming, was huge (and it was clear when he did play, he was affected by the injury). Dye hasn't been near the player he is thanks to his issues, Thome was gone for a little while, and you can hate on Pods and/or Erstad, but they were our 1/2 guys coming in, they were actually pretty decent when healthy, and completely losing your 1/2 guys is big.

Again, no excuse for the bullpen, but even if the offense has picked up lately, you can't argue it's been pathetic, and there were many games where the starting pitchers were strong enough to win, but the offensive did nothing

champagne030
07-20-2007, 02:23 PM
Mike Lowell certainly hasn't been a stiff in 2007

But 4 more years of J D Drew :whiner:

Hey, we agree about Santo sucking and Lowell not being a stiff. He's lost some range with the years, but he's still the best when he can get to the ball. He's on pace for 25+ HR's and 110+ RBI's. I'll take that stiff on our team right now. :D:

Boston: "Doesn't your shoulder hurt?"

JD: "Naw, it's fine."

They'll need to amputate his arm before JD or Bora$ lets that contract clause come into play.

champagne030
07-20-2007, 03:19 PM
Without Thome we'd have a massive hole at the DH position. Do people remember in 2005 Carl Everett was not that good? Oh I forgot, we're not suppose to boo him because he won us a title and despite the fact he made some ******* comments towards the organization because we replaced him with a MUCH better player. The OPS we gained with Thome over Everett was more than we lost with Anderson over Rowand.

Agreed the OPS we gained with Thome was more than we lost with Dino. It would not have created a massive hole at DH. You can find any schmoe for DH that will put up 20/80 (Yes, Thome is much more that this).

Not to mention Anderson's defense was just as good if not better than Rowand. Rowand's having a very good year, no doubt, but it remains to be seen if this is just a career year or an actual breakout season.

Agreed, Anderson's defense was much better than Rowand. The problem is that Ozzie has a personal issue with Anderson and did not play him everyday. There's many reasons we did not make the playoffs last season. Our hitting went from team play to trying to jack everything, Thome was injured, MB was pitching bad, JV was in the middle portion of crapping himself every 5th inning, Jose acted his age.....I will say that if we had Rowand and Thome last season we would have been in the playoffs, all those flaws included. I will also say that had Anderson started 150 games we would have been there too. Mack/Ozzie cost us much more than 5 games. Just one, of many, decisions that cost us last season and has carried through this season.

StillMissOzzie
07-20-2007, 04:49 PM
Mike Lowell certainly hasn't been a stiff in 2007

But 4 more years of J D Drew :whiner:

So giving JD Drew the opportunity to exercise his out option after two years into his 5 yr/$55M deal in favor of 5 more years at $14M per was a mistake? Who knew?

SMO
:gulp:

KyWhiSoxFan
07-21-2007, 08:07 AM
I'm not one to claim that Rowand is the source of all the team's problems, but I am a staunch believer of the adage that you have to be strong up the middle: SS, 2nd base, CF (plus pitching). CF has been a black hole for two years, Uribe sucks, and Iguchi is way below his best of two years ago defensively.

The road to being competitive again is resolved by addressing those three field positions for 2008. Uribe is gone next year, and so is Iguchi, and I would imagine KW will make a run at Rowand in the off season.

wassagstdu
07-21-2007, 09:27 AM
The problem is that Ozzie has a personal issue with Anderson and did not play him everyday.
Quirky. He has a personal issue with a center fielder who has trouble breaking the Mendoza line. Anderson's failure must be Ozzie's fault because otherwise some of "us" would have been wrong about him.

santo=dorf
07-21-2007, 09:40 AM
Am I the only one who remembers the 2006 team winning 90 games with a tired starting pitching staff (i.e, the most important thing in the game?)

The problems with this team come from the 2006-2007 offseason, not the 2005-2006 offseason.

LauraJ14
07-21-2007, 10:11 AM
We could have kept Frank Thomas as our DH for 2006 - his numbers ended up similar to Thome's - had a better 2nd half and helped his team to the playoffs.

soxfan1983
07-21-2007, 10:23 AM
Without Thome we'd have a massive hole at the DH position. Do people remember in 2005 Carl Everett was not that good? Oh I forgot, we're not suppose to boo him because he won us a title and despite the fact he made some ******* comments towards the organization because we replaced him with a MUCH better player. The OPS we gained with Thome over Everett was more than we lost with Anderson over Rowand. Not to mention Anderson's defense was just as good if not better than Rowand. Rowand's having a very good year, no doubt, but it remains to be seen if this is just a career year or an actual breakout season.

what about Frank though???? You don't think we would've resigned Thomas if the Thome trade didn't happen.

soxfan1983
07-21-2007, 10:24 AM
We could have kept Frank Thomas as our DH for 2006 - his numbers ended up similar to Thome's - had a better 2nd half and helped his team to the playoffs.


Exactly!:dtroll:

santo=dorf
07-21-2007, 11:02 AM
We could have kept Frank Thomas as our DH for 2006 - his numbers ended up similar to Thome's - had a better 2nd half and helped his team to the playoffs.
If the Sox started the year with Frank Thomas, they would've been 10 games out before the Oakland series. Thome carried this team in April. How did Frank do? .190/.264/.405 5 HR, 11 RBI's
Thome's April: .300/.457/.713 10 HR, 23 RBI's

The Thome trade also influenced Konerko to re-sign here. Think he would've come back if Frank was here? Is it conincidence that Crede and Dye had their best seasons with Konerko and Thome hitting in front of them?

MISoxfan
07-22-2007, 06:56 PM
If the Sox started the year with Frank Thomas, they would've been 10 games out before the Oakland series. Thome carried this team in April. How did Frank do? .190/.264/.405 5 HR, 11 RBI's
Thome's April: .300/.457/.713 10 HR, 23 RBI's

The Thome trade also influenced Konerko to re-sign here. Think he would've come back if Frank was here? Is it conincidence that Crede and Dye had their best seasons with Konerko and Thome hitting in front of them?

Yes it is a coincidence that Crede and Dye had their best seasons with Konerko and Thome hitting in front of them. How's that working out for Dye this season?

Thome carried this team in April last year? I'm pretty sure most of the team was doing alright at that time, enough to carry Thomas until he started to go on his tear. However, its easy to say the moves were the wrong moves now, but they looked good at the time. I think the only mistake out of those moves was not having a better plan for CF after moving Rowand.

April 06
Konerko .360 .433 .640
Dye .329 .430 .616
Crede .313 .360 .550
Iguchi .322 .375 .448
Pierzynski .342 .392 .397

Corlose 15
07-22-2007, 08:37 PM
Hindsight really is 20/20. So, nobody else remembers that Thomas was coming off of a season in which he played/hobbled through 25 games and missed a large chunk of the season before that?

Not to mention the fact the Sox would have had to pay him 10M that year when he was a major injury risk.

I love Frank and I'm glad things worked out for him but you can't really fault the Sox for not taking that risk.

Oakland was the only team that offered him anything and they only gave him 500k and some incentives to bump it up to 2M. The Sox didn't have that option.

fusillirob1983
07-22-2007, 11:13 PM
Hindsight really is 20/20. So, nobody else remembers that Thomas was coming off of a season in which he played/hobbled through 25 games and missed a large chunk of the season before that?

Not to mention the fact the Sox would have had to pay him 10M that year when he was a major injury risk.

I love Frank and I'm glad things worked out for him but you can't really fault the Sox for not taking that risk.

Oakland was the only team that offered him anything and they only gave him 500k and some incentives to bump it up to 2M. The Sox didn't have that option.

I'm not going to argue with getting Thome, but couldn't the Sox have declined their option and sat down with him to negotiate a new contract?

pearso66
07-22-2007, 11:34 PM
I'm not going to argue with getting Thome, but couldn't the Sox have declined their option and sat down with him to negotiate a new contract?

I believe if they declined his option, he was gone, or he would have had to go to arbitration, or something like that, and he woudl have made probably 5-8 mil last year with the Sox. I didn't like letting Frank go, but he hadn't played a full year in 3 years or so. Or 1 full year since 2000 (before being let go).