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Chicken Dinner
07-17-2007, 11:08 PM
This is your idea? This is not Ozzies fault. You are in charge of both the major league club and stocking the future WS players. ***? Is this the best you can do with 108+ million dollars? The fans are mad!! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

ilsox7
07-17-2007, 11:09 PM
:rolling:

peeonwrigley
07-17-2007, 11:25 PM
This is your idea? This is not Ozzies fault. You are in charge of both the major league club and stocking the future WS players. ***? Is this the best you can do with 108+ million dollars? The fans are mad!! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

:thome:

chortle

/chortles

DumpJerry
07-17-2007, 11:27 PM
This is your idea? This is not Ozzies fault. You are in charge of both the major league club and stocking the future WS players. ***? Is this the best you can do with 108+ million dollars? The fans are mad!! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:
:?: What are you referring to? The injuries? Come on, cut the guy some slack, there were some events beyond his control that have caused this season to crash and burn.

Bullpen pitching, especially setup guys, is always risky year-to-year. These are pitchers who are not quite starters, not ice cold closers. Some years they are good, some years they aren't.

ZombieRob
07-17-2007, 11:48 PM
:?: What are you referring to? The injuries? Come on, cut the guy some slack, there were some events beyond his control that have caused this season to crash and burn.

Bullpen pitching, especially setup guys, is always risky year-to-year. These are pitchers who are not quite starters, not ice cold closers. Some years they are good, some years they aren't.
Counting on Pods and Erstad to be healthy all season was not the brightest of ideas by K.W . And even with them healthy ,everyone knew this wasn't going to be a very good outfield.

ChiSoxGirl
07-17-2007, 11:49 PM
Bullpen pitching, especially setup guys, is always risky year-to-year. These are pitchers who are not quite starters, not ice cold closers. Some years they are good, some years they aren't.

Hawk & DJ touched on this during the broadcast tonight. Hawk asked DJ what the downside of having a 4-2 lead in the 6th was... DJ had nothing, so Hawk chimed in with, "the bullpen has to come in and pitch." Even Hawk isn't denying the catastrophic state of the bullpen these days.

Anyway, DJ started mentioning the bullpen guys from 2005- Politte, Cotts, Marte, Vizcaino, Hermanson, etc.- and commented that great bullpen arms are year-to-year and are a tough find. He also said that at least a couple of the bullpen guys from '05 (Politte & Hermanson for starters) aren't active in baseball right now, thus proving his point.

chisoxmike
07-17-2007, 11:54 PM
Blame gets assigned to 1) Players 2) Williams

The players for under preforming for most of the first half of the season. But, you can't put blame on anyone for injuries...it happens and you have to deal with it. When injuries happen, players have to step up, nobody did.

But, when your 1-2-3 hitters are basically out for the first half, its pretty damn hard to compete. I wonder how many games Podsednik, Erstad, and Thome played in together this season. Less than 10 I'd imagine.

As for Kenny. The bullpen was his grand plan, and it blew up in his face. It was awful. He got unproven, hard throwers to tout out there and get outs. They didn't. The bullpen is 100% Kenny's fault. But, I don't blame out 41-51 record all on Kenny.

ChiSoxGirl
07-17-2007, 11:56 PM
Blame gets assigned to 1) Players 2) Williams

The players for under preforming for most of the first half of the season. But, you can't put blame on anyone for injuries...it happens and you have to deal with it. When injuries happen, players have to step up, nobody did.

But, when your 1-2-3 hitters are basically out for the first half, its pretty damn hard to compete. I wonder how many games Podsednik, Erstad, and Thome played in together this season. Less than 10 I'd imagine.

As for Kenny. The bullpen was his grand plan, and it blew up in his face. It was awful. He got unproven, hard throwers to tout out there and get outs. They didn't. The bullpen is 100% Kenny's fault. But, I don't blame out 41-51 record all on Kenny.

The other day, I heard Rongey say that Ozzie has only used his regular lineup like six times all season! :o:

JB98
07-18-2007, 12:01 AM
The other day, I heard Rongey say that Ozzie has only used his regular lineup like six times all season! :o:

That many? I thought it was only five. Certainly, we will not see our regular lineup for the rest of the year. No point in Crede rushing back this season.

ilsox7
07-18-2007, 12:02 AM
I can't believe people are actually debating this. Everyone's been pretty bad. Ozzie has been extremely poor. The injuries have been crippling. KW's moves (I am on record for liking them) have been shown to be wrong in certain areas. Leave it alone people. It's a bad baseball team that has had bad luck and has not played well. That's the trifecta.

chisoxmike
07-18-2007, 12:04 AM
I can't believe people are actually debating this. Everyone's been pretty bad. Ozzie has been extremely poor. The injuries have been crippling. KW's moves (I am on record for liking them) have been shown to be wrong in certain areas. Leave it alone people. It's a bad baseball team that has had bad luck and has not played well. That's the trifecta.

Well yeah, everything that could go wrong, did.

Retool and win in 2008.

ilsox7
07-18-2007, 12:08 AM
Well yeah, everything that could go wrong, did.

Retool and win in 2008.

Exactly. I don't understand why people are spending days debating who the shortest midget has been this year. It's all been bad. Look forward, people.

1906-1917-2005
07-18-2007, 12:14 AM
i know this is off the beaten track for the subject, but im kinda suprised that kenny came out and took the blame for the team this year. i just didnt see that happening

JB98
07-18-2007, 12:18 AM
Exactly. I don't understand why people are spending days debating who the shortest midget has been this year. It's all been bad. Look forward, people.

I think people will look forward once KW makes some moves. There's more than enough blame to go around for this mess. I'm eager to see how KW goes about trying to fix it.

ilsox7
07-18-2007, 12:22 AM
I think people will look forward once KW makes some moves. There's more than enough blame to go around for this mess. I'm eager to see how KW goes about trying to fix it.

I think people will spend weeks roasting KW b/c everyone thinks JD is going to bring some great prospects. If there was a good deal out there, KW would have pulled the trigger already. Right now I think it's between not trading just to trade and trading a big piece (Gar). That's the decision process now IMO.

JB98
07-18-2007, 12:27 AM
I think people will spend weeks roasting KW b/c everyone thinks JD is going to bring some great prospects. If there was a good deal out there, KW would have pulled the trigger already. Right now I think it's between not trading just to trade and trading a big piece (Gar). That's the decision process now IMO.

It might actually benefit the Sox to let JD play out the year. If we lose him in free agency, we get a draft pick. That draft pick is worth more than a B-level prospect, IMO. I feel the same way about Iguchi.

Contreras, I think needs to be moved for whatever, just so we can open a spot for Floyd and find out if he has anything.

SluggersAway
07-18-2007, 12:31 AM
Iguchi is a damn fine second baseman and Dye is surely worth a lot more than a draft pick.

SluggersAway
07-18-2007, 12:32 AM
Buerhle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks, and Floyd does not a championship team make.

ilsox7
07-18-2007, 12:35 AM
Iguchi is a damn fine second baseman and Dye is surely worth a lot more than a draft pick.

JD is worth very little.

This is why Sox fans will roast KW if/when he trades JD. The return won't be much at all, but people will expect two top prospects.

SluggersAway
07-18-2007, 12:36 AM
I am not expecting two top prospects, but a draft pick? Give me a break.

JB98
07-18-2007, 12:37 AM
Iguchi is a damn fine second baseman and Dye is surely worth a lot more than a draft pick.

Other GMs are going to make that determination. If they are offering mid-level prospects, KW should send them to hell and let JD play out the year.

For me, draft picks > mid-level prospects. If we can get fill two holes by trading JD, then KW should pull the trigger.

ilsox7
07-18-2007, 12:38 AM
I am not expecting two top prospects, but a draft pick? Give me a break.

A high draft pick is more valuable than a B prospect.

JB98
07-18-2007, 12:39 AM
Buerhle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks, and Floyd does not a championship team make.

The top two is pretty damn good, and Vazquez is fine if he's at the back of the rotation.

I don't believe in Floyd myself, but since we traded Freddy for him, we have to find out sometime whether he can help this team. Why not now? The season is a lost cause anyway. What can it hurt?

JB98
07-18-2007, 12:42 AM
A high draft pick is more valuable than a B prospect.

There's just no question about that. Why trade JD in order to get a B prospect who has a 50/50 chance at best of helping us?

If we can't get better value than that for JD, the only downside to holding on to him is we maybe don't find out about Sweeney this year.

SluggersAway
07-18-2007, 12:42 AM
Dye is worth more than a B level prospect or a draft pick. Look at his stats the last 7 games.

ilsox7
07-18-2007, 12:44 AM
Dye is worth more than a B level prospect or a draft pick. Look at his stats the last 7 games.

Look at his stats the 85 games before that. Look at his nagging injuries. Look at his mental lapses this year. He isn't worth that much. The only way he brings significantly more is if he goes on a tear the next 2 weeks and someone gets horribly desperate. Hell, he couldn't hit a flyball tonight when we needed it.

MUsoxfan
07-18-2007, 12:44 AM
Blame gets assigned to 1) Players 2) Williams




Exactly. The position players on this team aren't bad players but for a long while played poorly as a group. Starters have been decent with an atrocious bullpen. We all know this. This is not news. Ozzie cannot make the batters hit, cannot make them field the ball and certainly can't pitch for them. KW would have been better served to find proven bullpen pitchers.

This carousel of bullpen pitchers is infinitely worse than our 5th starter situation a few years back. The bullpen situation is due to a poor, unproven staff. KW doesn't deserve to get fired over this. I'm sure he realizes his mistakes and will do his very best to resolve them in '08

JB98
07-18-2007, 12:45 AM
Dye is worth more than a B level prospect or a draft pick. Look at his stats the last 7 games.

I hope so, and if he is, we should trade him. But I'm not holding my breath.

ilsox7
07-18-2007, 12:46 AM
Exactly. The position players on this team aren't bad players but for a long while played poorly as a group. Starters have been decent with an atrocious bullpen. We all know this. This is not news. Ozzie cannot make the batters hit, cannot make them field the ball and certainly can't pitch for them. KW would have been better served to find proven bullpen pitchers.

This carousel of bullpen pitchers is infinitely worse than our 5th starter situation a few years back. The bullpen situation is due to a poor, unproven staff. KW doesn't deserve to get fired over this. I'm sure he realizes his mistakes and will do his very best to resolve them in '08

Ozzie deserves plenty of blame. This team is horrible fundamentally. A lot of that goes back to coaching. And as awful has the bullpen has been, Ozzie still has screwed things up by taking guys out of the game who were getting outs to play match-ups. When your bullpen is wretched and a guy actually comes in and gets outs, you do not remove him.

But as I've said in other posts, it is ridiculous to debate who is to blame for this year. Everyone gets the blame. It's that easy. Move on and talk about the future.

MUsoxfan
07-18-2007, 12:48 AM
But as I've said in other posts, it is ridiculous to debate who is to blame for this year. Everyone gets the blame. It's that easy. Move on and talk about the future.

I'll give you that. But there's no reason for the heads of management to roll this season

ilsox7
07-18-2007, 12:50 AM
I'll give you that. But there's no reason for the heads of management to roll this season

Agreed. **** happens. It happened this year. No one will get fired, nor should they.

JB98
07-18-2007, 12:51 AM
I'll give you that. But there's no reason for the heads of management to roll this season

Agreed on that. Management still has capital left to spend from 2005. They've earned the right to try to fix this mess. As I indicated earlier in the thread, I'm eagerly waiting to see how KW acts, both at the trade deadline and this offseason.

Grzegorz
07-18-2007, 04:45 AM
Buerhle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks, and Floyd does not a championship team make.

Why do you automatically assume Floyd is the fifth starter?

Steelrod
07-18-2007, 06:10 AM
That many? I thought it was only five. Certainly, we will not see our regular lineup for the rest of the year. No point in Crede rushing back this season.
Big time point, rushing Crede back, They have to know whether or not to sign for 2008. As I recall, his agent is not big on medical exams for his clients.

Frater Perdurabo
07-18-2007, 06:21 AM
It might actually benefit the Sox to let JD play out the year. If we lose him in free agency, we get a draft pick. That draft pick is worth more than a B-level prospect, IMO. I feel the same way about Iguchi.

Contreras, I think needs to be moved for whatever, just so we can open a spot for Floyd and find out if he has anything.

Agreed on both counts.

But there's another scenario. If this offseason Dye is healthy and is willing to take a hometown discount, it might be more valuable than a draft pick to sign him to play left field (and DH against LHP).

The Immigrant
07-18-2007, 08:03 AM
I am not expecting two top prospects, but a draft pick? Give me a break.

The Boston Red Sox offered arbitration to Orlando Cabrera after the 2004 season and, not surprisingly, he left for free agency. One of the draft picks the Red Sox received as compensation turned out to be Clay Buchholz, currently the top pitching prospect in all of baseball.

duke of dorwood
07-18-2007, 08:20 AM
Counting on Pods and Erstad to be healthy all season was not the brightest of ideas by K.W . And even with them healthy ,everyone knew this wasn't going to be a very good outfield.

It was a bad outfield last year with an MVP candidate in it-this year its a disgrace.

jabrch
07-18-2007, 08:37 AM
I think people will look forward once KW makes some moves.

No way. I think people will ***** more and more as their favorites (forever associated with 2005) get moved out. Look at the crisis when Kenny was even only discussing what to do with Mark - we had people here cancelling their tickets. (I assume now all of the Mark Buehrle fans will not be cancelling their season tickets as the Mark will be back next year - don't worry about what else happens - Mark is back)

A portion of our "fans" are going to ***** about absolutely any move we make. There are people who are still, in hindsight, *****ing about the Garcia trade. There are people who are still *****ing about acquiring Jim Thome. There is a portion of our fanbase that is so freaking smart that they will ***** about whatever it is that happens, only so that when the Sox don't win the WS next year, they can say they are right. (If we do win the WS, they get to be happy to be wrong; but then bet that we won't do it again the next year, and be right again)

I almost, in a sick and twisted sort of way, wish we'd suck next year too - just to clear the bandwaggon a bit more. Get rid of the geniuses, the amatuer GMs, the Monday Morning QBs, the little league all-stars, etc... and go back to having fans who enjoy the game of baseball and will root for the team rather than hate guys on it and go preaching that **** for an entire season.

There are some people here who only look forward to wallowing in their own misery.

SOXandILLINI
07-18-2007, 08:38 AM
Ozzie deserves plenty of blame. This team is horrible fundamentally. A lot of that goes back to coaching. And as awful has the bullpen has been, Ozzie still has screwed things up by taking guys out of the game who were getting outs to play match-ups. When your bullpen is wretched and a guy actually comes in and gets outs, you do not remove him.

But as I've said in other posts, it is ridiculous to debate who is to blame for this year. Everyone gets the blame. It's that easy. Move on and talk about the future.

Aren't we supposed to be built on fundamentals? That's rule 1 of "Ozzie" ball. But, I certainly agree, plenty of blame to go around.

jabrch
07-18-2007, 08:43 AM
Buerhle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks, and Floyd does not a championship team make.

Really?

How does Carpenter, Marquis, Mulder, Weaver, Ponson sound to you?

And keep in mind that the 5th sport would be open not only to Gavin but to Broadway, Gonzalez, and a host of other options. If we only score 4 runs a game, no rotation "a championship team make".

This team's problem is not starting pitching even with Contreras here - sucking. I don't believe we'd get significantly less production out of that sport if we had Gavin/Gio/Lance/etc. in it and an extra $10mm to spend on improvements in other areas.

Gregory Pratt
07-18-2007, 08:49 AM
Retool and win in 2008.

I like that. But it's wrong. With a fine Cleveland team, and a good Detroit team, ahead of us, we're more likely to retool and an always scrappy Minnesota team ahead of us -- we're not going to do much. We still won't have a leadoff hitter, the bullpen's likely to remain crap, Konerko'll be one year loser (and his hip one year closer to doom), as will Thome. Contreras is in for some serious problems, and if we replace him with a rookie, God helps us unless it's, say, Haeger. But it'll be Floyd. Oh! ****!

I hope nobody's kidding themselves. This team's a mess and that's a big result of Kenny Williams.

jabrch
07-18-2007, 08:54 AM
I like that. But it's wrong. With a fine Cleveland team, and a good Detroit team, ahead of us, we're more likely to retool and an always scrappy Minnesota team ahead of us -- we're not going to do much. We still won't have a leadoff hitter, the bullpen's likely to remain crap, Konerko'll be one year loser (and his hip one year closer to doom), as will Thome. Contreras is in for some serious problems, and if we replace him with a rookie, God helps us unless it's, say, Haeger. But it'll be Floyd. Oh! ****!

I hope nobody's kidding themselves. This team's a mess and that's a big result of Kenny Williams.


If I was as depressing as you about the game of baseball, I'd find myself a new hobby.

You're prediction of doom and gloom for the season after a season that just passed its midway point is completely assinine. Get off the bandwaggon if the bumps in the road hurt you too much.

PatK
07-18-2007, 08:56 AM
Dye is worth more than a B level prospect or a draft pick. Look at his stats the last 7 games.

He's been atrocious with runners in scoring position. Those solo shots are nice, but they aren't winning us games.

Bases loaded twice last night, and he strikes out and hits into a double play.

palehozenychicty
07-18-2007, 08:59 AM
He's been atrocious with runners in scoring position. Those solo shots are nice, but they aren't winning us games.

Bases loaded twice last night, and he strikes out and hits into a double play.

Which is puzzling because for a good part of last year, he was as clutch as you could get. Sadly, so was the rest of the team. :(:

rdivaldi
07-18-2007, 09:17 AM
Play me a tune Dizzy.....

:threadblows:

russ99
07-18-2007, 09:31 AM
Thread blows. I agree...

I think Kenny's biggest failure was his complete refusal to get anyone in the FA market, except Erstad at the very end out of covering his butt on the Pods/Anderson overestimation.

There were obvious holes on this team last fall, and all Kenny did to fill them was a few minor trades for borderline players and wishful thinking in his incorrect belief in "Market Correction" to come.

If anyone wants to make things right again and give the fans some reason to look forward to 2008, it's Kenny. If he messes up again, he's probably gone at the end of next season, and possibly Ozzie too.

There's a lot riding on his moves the next 2 weeks and in the offseason... I just hope Jerry lets him spend some money instead of forcing him to get guys off the scrap-heap, as usual.

southside rocks
07-18-2007, 09:34 AM
No way. I think people will ***** more and more as their favorites (forever associated with 2005) get moved out. Look at the crisis when Kenny was even only discussing what to do with Mark - we had people here cancelling their tickets. (I assume now all of the Mark Buehrle fans will not be cancelling their season tickets as the Mark will be back next year - don't worry about what else happens - Mark is back)

A portion of our "fans" are going to ***** about absolutely any move we make. There are people who are still, in hindsight, *****ing about the Garcia trade. There are people who are still *****ing about acquiring Jim Thome. There is a portion of our fanbase that is so freaking smart that they will ***** about whatever it is that happens, only so that when the Sox don't win the WS next year, they can say they are right. (If we do win the WS, they get to be happy to be wrong; but then bet that we won't do it again the next year, and be right again)

I almost, in a sick and twisted sort of way, wish we'd suck next year too - just to clear the bandwaggon a bit more. Get rid of the geniuses, the amatuer GMs, the Monday Morning QBs, the little league all-stars, etc... and go back to having fans who enjoy the game of baseball and will root for the team rather than hate guys on it and go preaching that **** for an entire season.

There are some people here who only look forward to wallowing in their own misery.

What's interesting to me is that some fans do find hate to be part of being a fan. I have a friend who's been a Sox fan his whole life, and when they have a bad season like this one, he hates them all, individually and collectively.

I don't get that. I respond to bad seasons by paying less attention to the Sox and more to other baseball games. And I get frustrated and angry and sometimes even really sad, but I don't feel any rancor or hate toward the players or the coaches or the management.

What I find silly are the suggestions by the fans who seem to think, as Chris Singleton said last week, that getting new and better players is as simple as going to the animal shelter and picking out your new puppy. Just go into the room of cages of relief pitchers and take home the ones you want. They're all there, they're all good, and you can have any of them!

As KW has pointed out with increasing irritation in his tone, this isn't fantasy baseball, and brilliant deals aren't the norm. (In fact, looking at the trades that have been made around both leagues this summer bears out what he says.)

Greg Couch actually wrote a pretty good column, in today's Sun-Times, about KW's style of building a team. KW is a gambler, and when his gambles pay off -- 2005! -- it's a bonanza; when his gambles flop -- 2007 -- it's a nightmare. The upside, to me, is that KW is a very smart gambler and does learn from his failures. Couch wrote a good analysis, IMO.
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/couch/472291,CST-SPT-greg18.article

balke
07-18-2007, 09:42 AM
Thread blows. I agree...

I think Kenny's biggest failure was his complete refusal to get anyone in the FA market, except Erstad at the very end out of covering his butt on the Pods/Anderson overestimation.

There were obvious holes on this team last fall, and all Kenny did to fill them was a few minor trades for borderline players and wishful thinking in his incorrect belief in "Market Correction" to come.

If anyone wants to make things right again and give the fans some reason to look forward to 2008, it's Kenny. If he messes up again, he's probably gone at the end of next season, and possibly Ozzie too.

There's a lot riding on his moves the next 2 weeks and in the offseason... I just hope Jerry lets him spend some money instead of forcing him to get guys off the scrap-heap, as usual.



A lot of people thought the pitchers picked up were great moves in the offseason. Even some baseball analysts thought the Sox really beefed up the bullpen with all the fireballers. The fans thought it was going to work. Something is obviously wrong with Macdougal, so there goes your set-up man and the fireballers all throw the ball out of the K zone.

Logan who we thought was the worst pitcher, is one of the betters (especially if you need 1 out in an inning) and Thornton who has shown streaks of brilliance is just horrible.

So yeah, Kenny is wrong now. Was he wrong then? On the Erstad signing, I'd say overwhelmingly he was wrong. Everyone on the planet knew he'd get injured. But if there was no bullpen issue, would it have been so difficult to find a CF at the trade deadline? You would think between Pods and Erstad and Sweeney, and Ozuna, and Anderson and Owens, there'd be one guy who could play LF, and if the only need at the break was a CFer, that could be corrected.


Instead the bullpen created between 3-5 holes on the team, and both Pods and Erstad went down, with Thome, with Ozuna, and Crede. Couple that with Konerko and Dye disappearing, and you have a disaster.

I don't think Kenny had a magic ball for that. That's like the blame people threw on him when Frank and Maggs went down. You gotta give him time to correct this team, there are problems here that won't be fixed with one move. And some moves could send good players to other teams unnecessarily.

Hitmen77
07-18-2007, 09:49 AM
The Boston Red Sox offered arbitration to Orlando Cabrera after the 2004 season and, not surprisingly, he left for free agency. One of the draft picks the Red Sox received as compensation turned out to be Clay Buchholz, currently the top pitching prospect in all of baseball.

When was the last time the Sox got a draft pick for losing a Type A free agent? Was it Bartolo Colon? Who did we get with that draft pick? Was it Gio Gonzalez?

Tragg
07-18-2007, 09:59 AM
Hopefully, Kenny will not not limit his fixing of this team to the bullpen, but will address the offense which, even when healthy, remains below par and well below championship quality.

balke
07-18-2007, 10:06 AM
Hopefully, Kenny will not not limit his fixing of this team to the bullpen, but will address the offense which, even when healthy, remains below par and well below championship quality.

Not with the starting pitching we have. If there's a solid bullpen behind them, then there's plenty of offense. The offense was horrible at the beginning of the season, but if Konerko would've been hitting like this then, and Thome didn't miss any playing time, the #'s would be much different. Even Dye is showing signs of life.

Jerko
07-18-2007, 10:10 AM
If the bullpen converts 12 of the 16 blown saves it has, they'd be 53-39 right now, a game out of 2nd in the loss column. That's WITH the ****ty hitting, injuries, and Contreras sucking. And 12 of 16 isn't even a good rate when it comes to saves so they could be even higher with a decent pen. That's why I don't want a fire-sale, but obviously things can't stay as they are now.

jabrch
07-18-2007, 10:55 AM
Hopefully, Kenny will not not limit his fixing of this team to the bullpen, but will address the offense which, even when healthy, remains below par and well below championship quality.


I disagree. But you know that already. No reason to rehash this again.

If everyone is healthy and plays to their career averages, this offense is more than capable of winning. Take a look at the past two seasons as evidence.

Tragg
07-18-2007, 10:57 AM
Not with the starting pitching we have. If there's a solid bullpen behind them, then there's plenty of offense. The offense was horrible at the beginning of the season, but if Konerko would've been hitting like this then, and Thome didn't miss any playing time, the #'s would be much different. Even Dye is showing signs of life.
I agree the starting pitching is excellent. But we won't ever see 2005's bullpen or defense again, so the O needs to get better. The O was healthy most of last year, we had good starting pitching, and the Sox won nothing.

Players get worse, teams get stale, players age......all of the above for the Sox. This same group is likely to be worse next year.
It needs some young talent and that talent needs to be developed now to be of use.

It's going to be interesting when Erstad and Pods come back - does Ozzie play them and crowd out the development of young players (again) so that we can try to win 80 instead of 70 games?

jabrch
07-18-2007, 11:01 AM
The O was healthy most of last year, we had good starting pitching, and the Sox won nothing.

Um - Did I miss something? I thought we won 90 games.

This same group is likely to be worse next year.

Bull****.

PK is not likely to be worse next year than he was through the first 70 games. Thome is not likely to be worse than he has been. Crede won't possibly deliver less. Iguchi/AJ/etc. are all having years well below their career averages.

balke
07-18-2007, 11:12 AM
when Erstad and Pods come back - does Ozzie play them and crowd out the development of young players (again) so that we can try to win 80 instead of 70 games?

Well, that's kind of the point of the whole game of baseball, to win more games than less.

There's a whole league designed for player development. There's even winter ball and Spring Training with the pros. And this season September came early. So no, I don't think young players will be brought up to "develop" next season.

The Sox are going to to try and win 90-100 with whoever gives them the best opportunity. So to begin next season, that'll probably mean Fields, and hopefully a new veteran free agent CFer. That might mean Richar at 2B if Gooch can't be resigned. But it won't be learning time for minor leaguers, that's for sure. Roster spots are earned, not reserved for developement.

SOXandILLINI
07-18-2007, 11:17 AM
Um - Did I miss something? I thought we won 90 games.



Bull****.

PK is not likely to be worse next year than he was through the first 70 games. Thome is not likely to be worse than he has been. Crede won't possibly deliver less. Iguchi/AJ/etc. are all having years well below their career averages.

How'd we play in the 2nd half of last year, and before we got the injury bug this year? And Crede, might not deliver at all.

spiffie
07-18-2007, 11:26 AM
PK is not likely to be worse next year than he was through the first 70 games. Thome is not likely to be worse than he has been. Crede won't possibly deliver less. Iguchi/AJ/etc. are all having years well below their career averages.
Konerko is a streaky player. By the end of the year his numbers might look like the norm for him, but the distribution was brutal. Hopefully that will be better next year, but there's always a chance with him that he'll go hot/cold.

Thome is the most likely person to slip from year to year. He's aging and has injury issues. He's getting to the point in his career where it is reasonable to begin to expect slippage.

Crede might not deliver anything if he doesn't recover fully from back surgery. We have no idea what we're going to be getting from Joe next year. Hopefully he'll recover and be the Joe Crede of Oct. 2005 and the first half of 2006. But there is a more than small chance he will not be.

AJ will hopefully be better next year simply due to getting more days off if Hall is healthy. So that one seems fair to expect. Same with Iguchi, as reports are he was injured. So if he comes back (which is not assured) he has likely earned the benefit of the doubt re: improvement.

Dye is likely gone, so his returning to closer to his norm likely is meaningless. That leaves us with an absolute hash of oft-injured vets and underperforming kids for the OF. Pods/Erstad/Mack/Terrero/Owens/Sweeney/Anderson. Which trio are you going to pull from there and feel confident of getting 162 games of solid production?

Uribe is an abomination. He's one more off week from getting his OPS under 600. And he's become much less of a fielder. The SS position can only improve if he is replaced. Or even if he's not replaced and we play 8 on 9.

So I don't think it's unfair to say the offense is a question mark going into next year. I think you can assume relatively solid performance from Konerko and AJ. If Thome is healthy he'll give you around what he is giving now. Beyond that, there are issues over every other position.

jabrch
07-18-2007, 11:27 AM
How'd we play in the 2nd half of last year, and before we got the injury bug this year?

We scored 4.7 runs per game. That's .5 runs per game more than we have scored this year. We hit .271 - that's 30 pts higher than we hit this year.

For all the pissing and moaning about last year's second half, it only looked bad in comparison to the torrid first half we had. It really wasn't that bad - offensively.

Our pitching in the second half of last year gave up about a half a run more than it did in the first half. Our STARTERS this year have given up a half a run less than we did last year while our Pen has given up over 1.5 runs more per game this year than last.

If everyone is healthy, this team is a contender. You know how we know that? When everyone was healthy, this team was right in the thick of things.

jabrch
07-18-2007, 11:29 AM
So I don't think it's unfair to say the offense is a question mark going into next year.

I have no problem with calling it a question mark. I have major problems with being sure that it is going to be worse than it was this year. There is a major difference there.

Lip Man 1
07-18-2007, 11:43 AM
A few points:

Ilsox...I disagree with the contention that it's Ozzie's fault the players are putrid at fundamentals. I think he takes some of the blame because perhaps he is asking guys who shouldn't have to do certain things, like A.J. bunting, to have to do them....HOWEVER if you have to be 'taught' fundamentals at the major league level you need to look in the minor league system and ask 'what the hell is going on down there.'

Russ 99...Kenny can butcher next season and he wouldn't be going anywhere. He is close to ownership, they support him without question and knowing Kenny a wee bit, the last thing he'd do is re-sign after a bad year. He wouldn't 'go out' that way.

Lip

ilsox7
07-18-2007, 11:51 AM
A few points:

Ilsox...I disagree with the contention that it's Ozzie's fault the players are putrid at fundamentals. I think he takes some of the blame because perhaps he is asking guys who shouldn't have to do certain things, like A.J. bunting, to have to do them....HOWEVER if you have to be 'taugh' fundamentals at the major league level you need to look in the minor league system and ask 'what the hell is going on down there.'

Russ 99...Kenny can butcher next season and he wouldn't be going anywhere. He is close to ownership, they support him without question and knowing Kenny a wee bit, the last thing he'd do is re-sign after a bad year. He wouldn't 'go out' that way.

Lip

I agree that itís a system issue, too. But Ozzie is the manager of the major league team and I have seen only a decrease in the quality of fundamentals this year. Take a guy like JD, for instance. He has made one mental mistake after another this year and seemingly, nothing has been done about it. At some point, if Ozzie wants to play like he says he does, he needs to take a strong stance and emphasize that the team will play fundamental baseball, else youíll find yourself on the bench.

Lip Man 1
07-18-2007, 12:00 PM
Ilsox:

That I agree with to a certain extent. Eddie Stanky used to do that all the time (and so did Al Lopez according to some of the guys who played for him...)

The only drawback though is that if Ozzie benched every guy for fundamentals, hustling, mental issue there would be no one on the field this season.

Lip

JB98
07-18-2007, 12:06 PM
No way. I think people will ***** more and more as their favorites (forever associated with 2005) get moved out. Look at the crisis when Kenny was even only discussing what to do with Mark - we had people here cancelling their tickets. (I assume now all of the Mark Buehrle fans will not be cancelling their season tickets as the Mark will be back next year - don't worry about what else happens - Mark is back)

A portion of our "fans" are going to ***** about absolutely any move we make. There are people who are still, in hindsight, *****ing about the Garcia trade. There are people who are still *****ing about acquiring Jim Thome. There is a portion of our fanbase that is so freaking smart that they will ***** about whatever it is that happens, only so that when the Sox don't win the WS next year, they can say they are right. (If we do win the WS, they get to be happy to be wrong; but then bet that we won't do it again the next year, and be right again)

I almost, in a sick and twisted sort of way, wish we'd suck next year too - just to clear the bandwaggon a bit more. Get rid of the geniuses, the amatuer GMs, the Monday Morning QBs, the little league all-stars, etc... and go back to having fans who enjoy the game of baseball and will root for the team rather than hate guys on it and go preaching that **** for an entire season.

There are some people here who only look forward to wallowing in their own misery.

So you agree with every move KW has ever made? There's always going to be a subset of fans who disagree with a move. It isn't the same people every time.

Hell, I loved the Thome deal, hated the Garcia trade, loved the Buehrle signing, would have been furious if they had traded him. ****, I was pleased when we traded Ross Gload for Andrew Sisco. I thought Cotts-for-Aardsma would work too. I was in wait-and-see mode on the McCarthy deal, and right now, I like it.

If you think a majority are pissing and moaning about every move, I would disagree.

JB98
07-18-2007, 12:12 PM
Ilsox:

That I agree with to a certain extent. Eddie Stanky used to do that all the time (and so did Al Lopez according to some of the guys who played for him...)

The only drawback though is that if Ozzie benched every guy for fundamentals, hustling, mental issue there would be no one on the field this season.

Lip

Further, with the number of injuries we've had this season, I think Ozzie looks down his bench and sees an alarming lack of options.

Let's say JD makes a mental mistake and Ozzie wants to bench him. Who does he replace him with? Mackowiak has to play LF on this club every damn day. JD on his worst day is still better than Luis Terrero.

oeo
07-18-2007, 12:23 PM
A few points:

Ilsox...I disagree with the contention that it's Ozzie's fault the players are putrid at fundamentals. I think he takes some of the blame because perhaps he is asking guys who shouldn't have to do certain things, like A.J. bunting, to have to do them....HOWEVER if you have to be 'taught' fundamentals at the major league level you need to look in the minor league system and ask 'what the hell is going on down there.'

Russ 99...Kenny can butcher next season and he wouldn't be going anywhere. He is close to ownership, they support him without question and knowing Kenny a wee bit, the last thing he'd do is re-sign after a bad year. He wouldn't 'go out' that way.

Lip

Well, most of the guys on the team are not even from our system. Owens and Fields are and can lay down bunts.

I cannot believe a guy like Uribe who is bad at so many things, cannot lay down a bunt to at least become valuable offensively when he's in one of his many ruts.

thedudeabides
07-18-2007, 12:36 PM
Well, most of the guys on the team are not even from our system. Owens and Fields are and can lay down bunts.

I cannot believe a guy like Uribe who is bad at so many things, cannot lay down a bunt to at least become valuable offensively when he's in one of his many ruts.

I don't have a hard time believing Uribe is incompetent at anything. :D:

The Immigrant
07-18-2007, 12:44 PM
I don't have a hard time believing Uribe is incompetent at anything. :D:

Other than assaulting the buffet table, of course.

Chicken Dinner
07-18-2007, 01:04 PM
Other than assaulting the buffet table, of course.

Or a Dominican farmer. :o:

jabrch
07-18-2007, 01:12 PM
So you agree with every move KW has ever made?

Nope - but I am 100% sure that Kenny Williams knows a lot more about baseball, and about the players in question than I do and I am fairly sure he knows more than everyone here.

TheVulture
07-18-2007, 03:00 PM
Buerhle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks, and Floyd does not a championship team make.

Why the hell not? The starting pitching is OBVIOUSLY not the problem. And Floyd has not been penciled into the '08 rotation.

The Immigrant
07-18-2007, 03:14 PM
Or a Dominican farmer. :o:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/52/JackieChiles.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/52/JackieChiles.jpg)

"Those accusations were deplorable, malicious, outrageous, egregious, and preposterous."

Tragg
07-18-2007, 04:25 PM
I have no problem with calling it a question mark. I have major problems with being sure that it is going to be worse than it was this year. There is a major difference there.
Nobody knows what will happen. Most of the Sox hitters have had their moments.
Look at the demographics - how many players in their prime, how many young players who figure to improve (none in this class to start the year), and how many players past their prime who probably will decline? Look at the chances of getting hurt, of having a bad year, of who has been playing over their head.....
Offensively, I think it's more probable than not that this will not be a good offensive club going into next year. And even more probable that the O isn't championship quality.
So I hope that Kenny is actively marketing Dye, the hitter who can bring something in return. We need better young talent than what we've got.

ThomesHomie
07-18-2007, 04:47 PM
Bullpen pitching

How long has our bull pen stunk for ? Why can't Kenny go out there and actually get someone ?

Blob
07-18-2007, 05:10 PM
I love the way these kind of crazy threads are started, people respond with rationale and the thread starter is never heard from again to back up their first statement.

ilsox7
07-18-2007, 05:41 PM
Ilsox:

That I agree with to a certain extent. Eddie Stanky used to do that all the time (and so did Al Lopez according to some of the guys who played for him...)

The only drawback though is that if Ozzie benched every guy for fundamentals, hustling, mental issue there would be no one on the field this season.

Lip

The hope would be that a guy sees JD gets benched for throwing to the wrong base twice in a game and that wakes him up a bit. Lord only knows if that would happen, but as piss-poor as this team is fundamentally, it couldn't hurt.

One thing I was always told by baseball coaches from t-ball on up is that physical errors will happen. Guys are gonna boot groundballs, make bad throws, etc. But mental errors are about being prepared, in the game, and concentrating. If you cannot do that consistently, then you do not deserve to be on the field.

ilsox7
07-18-2007, 05:42 PM
How long has our bull pen stunk for ? Why can't Kenny go out there and actually get someone ?

Go find all of the bad bullpens in MLB. Then make a list of how many GMs from those teams were able to get someone. It's not as easy as typing it on an internet message board.

Chicken Dinner
07-18-2007, 07:29 PM
I love the way these kind of crazy threads are started, people respond with rationale and the thread starter is never heard from again to back up their first statement.

What back up would you like? I see you've started some good threads. :?:

Lip Man 1
07-18-2007, 07:35 PM
Story this afternoon at the Tribune web site on Uribe. Says he might be on his way out, Ozzie has told him he needs to get on base more the rest of the season, that's what he is looking for.

We'll see.

Lip

ilsox7
07-18-2007, 07:36 PM
Story this afternoon at the Tribune web site on Uribe. Says he might be on his way out, Ozzie has told him he needs to get on base more the rest of the season, that's what he is looking for.

We'll see.

Lip

I saw that. Very good news. Time for some of these guys to be accountable.

Gregory Pratt
07-18-2007, 09:52 PM
If I was as depressing as you about the game of baseball, I'd find myself a new hobby.

You're prediction of doom and gloom for the season after a season that just passed its midway point is completely assinine. Get off the bandwaggon if the bumps in the road hurt you too much.

Nah. I love baseball more than the White Sox. I love the White Sox, to be sure, and they're the only team I root for, but I love the game enough to enjoy a ballgame even if the Sox have just been destroyed 10-0 or edged 1-0 or whatever. But as far as the "prediction of doom and gloom" you've got to look at it this way -- we don't spend money on big names, as a general rule. We won't deal with Boras. We have no leadoff hitter. Our organization is terrible at developing players. Konerko's hip is likely to die in the next few years, and age is going to start setting in (same with Thome). We'll have a miserable outfield last year, even if we add Rowand or Byrnes (we aren't getting Jones, Hunter or Patterson -- and we don't want the last one).

Our farm system is awful. Sweeney looks nice, but he's not an impact player at all. Uribe's been declining as a hitter for years now and will likely continue -- as it stands, his production is abysmal, and I used to be one of his biggest supporters.

Then there are other questions. Take Buehrle, for instance. I love Buehrle as much as anyone here does, but if he loses 3 MPH, he's in a world of hurt. Mark Grace pointed out that the comparison of Buehrle to Glavine has always been false because Tom Glavine lives outside and Buehrle bullies righties inside with his cutter.

He loses a little speed and he's the guy he was in the second half.

That said, you've got to sign him, like we did, but there are some serious issues that it might present.

Besides all that, there's little youth on our team. And much of the youth in the system is bad. we're in a lot of trouble for the next few years, so sorry to say.

Gregory Pratt
07-18-2007, 09:56 PM
A few points:

Ilsox...I disagree with the contention that it's Ozzie's fault the players are putrid at fundamentals. I think he takes some of the blame because perhaps he is asking guys who shouldn't have to do certain things, like A.J. bunting, to have to do them....HOWEVER if you have to be 'taught' fundamentals at the major league level you need to look in the minor league system and ask 'what the hell is going on down there.'


AJ is perfectly capable of bunting. He was very good at it in Minnesota. He's done it well for us a few times. You don't generally ask him, but when you do, he needs to do it. AJ generally has an attitude problem about it, too, as evidenced by the time he bunted it right at the fielder early in the season. (Go deep into your memory banks.)

Dye's been swinging for the fences in every AB this year because he's desperate to get his FA money and he wants to recapture last year's glory. It was on the radio, in lesser words, and it's clear by the way he chases every 3-1 ball four everytime with some monstrous, disgusting cut.

We've become the selfish team we used to be.

gosox41
07-18-2007, 10:17 PM
Blame gets assigned to 1) Players 2) Williams

The players for under preforming for most of the first half of the season. But, you can't put blame on anyone for injuries...it happens and you have to deal with it. When injuries happen, players have to step up, nobody did.

But, when your 1-2-3 hitters are basically out for the first half, its pretty damn hard to compete. I wonder how many games Podsednik, Erstad, and Thome played in together this season. Less than 10 I'd imagine.

As for Kenny. The bullpen was his grand plan, and it blew up in his face. It was awful. He got unproven, hard throwers to tout out there and get outs. They didn't. The bullpen is 100% Kenny's fault. But, I don't blame out 41-51 record all on Kenny.

While the players are too blame for underachieving, I think KW and his scouts really messed this up.

The most obvious is the bullpen. Way to miss on justabout every off season acquisition here. All the rave reviews about Masset and he wasn't even considred a below average reliever IMHO. The concept of getting all these power arms is nice, but KW needed to consider a few other things when assembling the bullpen:

1. Guys who can consistently throw strikes. That's the biggest issue. I don't care how hard you throw if it ain't over the plate.

2. Guys who have an average or better second pitch. Jenks is great because of an overpowering fast ball, and an unbelievable curve. Take away the curve and Jenks is good, but not as good as he's been.

3. Fastballs that move. Just because KW failed to hit the heater as a major leaguer, doesn't mean the goods won't figure out how to hit the fastball.

On the offensive side, and I don't mean to come off sarcastic, but the following players are too be considered injury prone for 2008:

Pods
Erstad
Thome-back issues killed his power numbers the scond half of 06, wrist in 05, and oblique muscle in 07. An older player with a big swing who plays a lot of games in cold weather is at risk of having a similar injuries in the future.
Crede-Even in '06 his back was bad, but hopefully surgery corrected it

In the case of Pods and Erstad, they've been injured the last few years. Freak injuries or not they have a history. As for Thome and Crede, back injuries are the most nagging and hardest to figure out and as a player ages, it is safe to assume they're higher risk.

And while we're at it with KW and his scouts putting together a team, the following players are below average when it comes to speed:
PK
Crede
AJ
Thome

That's 1/2 the line up being base cloggers, Dye is average, Uribe is average.

Pretty much the whole roster can't lay down a bunt.

And don't get me started on guys (back ups or regulars) who can barely get a .300 OBP let along the league average of .335 while producing little power.

I'm sure you see where I'm going. The early season slump was bad and can be balmed on the players. But lack of depth and lack of versatility (speed doesn't slump) as well as hoping and praying that 4 injured key players would stay healthy doesn't help either.



Bob

gosox41
07-18-2007, 10:18 PM
How long has our bull pen stunk for ? Why can't Kenny go out there and actually get someone ?


Lack of a farm system isn't helping the cause.


Bob

wassagstdu
07-19-2007, 07:06 AM
What's interesting to me is that some fans do find hate to be part of being a fan.

I don't understand the attitude of some fans that losing is something the Sox are doing to them. But then I don't have to deal with Cub fans every day.

rdivaldi
07-19-2007, 08:57 AM
Lack of a farm system isn't helping the cause.


Bob

:?:

The farm system can't be expected to put out 4 starting position players and an entire bullpen in one season. That's completely unreasonable.

FloridaSox
07-19-2007, 10:27 AM
Draft picks are great...but then you have to be great at making picks...our recent track record in the draft is not that great.

balke
07-19-2007, 04:00 PM
Draft picks are great...but then you have to be great at making picks...our recent track record in the draft is not that great.

That's probably true, but I wonder what talent has been squandered and wasted in Charlotte. I don't know if the picks have been THIS bad. Something strange is going on down there, especially when it comes to hitting.

gosox41
07-19-2007, 05:16 PM
:?:

The farm system can't be expected to put out 4 starting position players and an entire bullpen in one season. That's completely unreasonable.


OK, how about 1 productive middle reliever that was drafted by the Sox in 7 years? I wish the Sox would develop a position player, let alone 4 in the 7 years KW has been GM.



Bob

BadBobbyJenks
07-19-2007, 05:27 PM
OK, how about 1 productive middle reliever that was drafted by the Sox in 7 years? I wish the Sox would develop a position player, let alone 4 in the 7 years KW has been GM.



Bob




True enough, we just never land a big time prospect.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/draft2007/insider/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=2892330 Lot of talent passed up in this draft

Chipol
07-19-2007, 06:21 PM
Story this afternoon at the Tribune web site on Uribe. Says he might be on his way out, Ozzie has told him he needs to get on base more the rest of the season, that's what he is looking for.

We'll see.

Lip

The thing that bugged me about this is that Ozzie says he talked to him in spring training. FOUR MONTHS AGO!!!! What about yesterday, or the day before? He mentions it in once spring training and Uribe is supposed to make it his mission for the season? How about a little reinforcement?

Domeshot17
07-19-2007, 06:26 PM
The thing that bugged me about this is that Ozzie says he talked to him in spring training. FOUR MONTHS AGO!!!! What about yesterday, or the day before? He mentions it in once spring training and Uribe is supposed to make it his mission for the season? How about a little reinforcement?

I love Ozzie but he plays favorites like a 4th grade teacher. He has his guys who can do no wrong until they are so bad they have to go (Uribe) and he has guys who can never do anything right no matter what they do (Like Gload was).