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View Full Version : Could it be the "Coop"?


ChiMan921
07-17-2007, 03:48 PM
Just a Thought....... is it remotely possible that Donnie Cooper has somehow affected these pitchers in a negative way?

I've never seen so many free stolen bases as I have last year and this year. I didn't even know about not being given credit for a stolen base if the opposition doesn't make an effort until THIS YEAR, and I've watched baseball for over 50 years! It's not AJ, these pitchers are not even fundamentally close to being sound.

I wish I could buy into all the Sox relievers being candidates for (Mod Edit: I'm going to let this first one slide, but don't try to evade the language filters. Type the word you mean exactly as it is written and let the filters do their work. Self filtering always leads to bans. Read the thread at the top of the Clubhouse for further information.) Reliever of all time, but it is just not logical that all these quality relievers just "lost it all at once".

Add to that the new guys look completely lost - this new guy Day might just challenge Kochy for the award if something doesn't change soon.:?:

itsnotrequired
07-17-2007, 03:56 PM
Just a Thought....... is it remotely possible that Donnie Cooper has somehow affected these pitchers in a negative way?

I've never seen so many free stolen bases as I have last year and this year. I didn't even know about not being given credit for a stolen base if the opposition doesn't make an effort until THIS YEAR, and I've watched baseball for over 50 years! It's not AJ, these pitchers are not even fundamentally close to being sound.

I wish I could buy into all the Sox relievers being candidates for Mod edit: Quoting language filter evasions gets you into trouble, too. Watch it! Reliever of all time, but it is just not logical that all these quality relievers just "lost it all at once".

Add to that the new guys look completely lost - this new guy Day might just challenge Kochy for the award if something doesn't change soon.:?:

Sox pitching has given up 53 SBs this year, right in the middle of the pack. Compare that to San Diego which has given up 97.

The Sox just aren't good at gunning down runners. They have only done so 13 times this season, third to last in all the majors. A combination of AJ and pitchers who take too long. Contreras alone has 15 bags swiped on him this season, nearly a third of the team total.

balke
07-17-2007, 03:59 PM
Hall is trying to throw runners out while recovering from a torn labrum, and AJ has never had a cannon. That's not Coop's fault.

ChiMan921
07-17-2007, 04:07 PM
I agree, you are on the money statistically, however there's no effort to develop a sidestep, keep the runner's close, even double look the runner at second, those fundamental flaws are just so obvious - you learn that stuff in high school ball.

Add to that known commodities like McDougal and Thornton, who have so much upside, yet they implode on a regular basis - Jenks has been a whiteknuckle experience for awhile, they are too talented for that. Logan's the one exception, and he's a one hitter specialist type of reliever.

As for the starters, I think Coop's done a pretty good job. Jimmy Piersall could coach Buerhle and he still wins his 12-15 games each year. Garland and Vazquez are proof that the coaching is not a complete disaster. There's just got to be a common thread as to why the bullpen is so weak - case in point, last night, I almost threw my TV off the table.........:o: As Belushi said in Animal House, They used the whole...............bullpen!!!!

DumpJerry
07-17-2007, 04:13 PM
Let's not forget about Freddy Garcia who would seemingly stand there while the guy on First would score on a solo triple steal.

TDog
07-17-2007, 04:30 PM
The Sox don't have a catcher who can throw out baserunners. But it is possible that some of the problem with the pitchers can be blamed on the pitching coach. I don't think it's likely, but it's possible.

Nardi Contreras, the Yankees pitching coach in 1995, went to the Mariners in 1997 and was fired in 1998. The Seattle bullpen was atrocious in 1998, maybe worse than White Sox fans are seeing this year. It improved appreciably after Contreras left, for whatever reason.

The White Sox hired Contreras after the Mariners fired him, and the White Sox pitching improved. Go figure. The White Sox pitching didn't stay improved, though. Contreras was dismissed in July 2002.

Apparently, Contreras is now the minor league pitching coordinator for the Yankees, a team that doesn't have low standards.

Lip Man 1
07-17-2007, 05:20 PM
I don't think Cooper has negatively impacted the pitchers but I do think that the organization has placed unrealistic standards on their pitching coach, thinking he can solve everyone's problems and issues.

No pitching coach can cure every issue.

To think that Coop could solve, figure out, get good (hell decent), perfomances out of so many guys with a history of minimal success or control issue was simply unrelistic.

Lip

JB98
07-17-2007, 05:29 PM
I don't think Cooper has negatively impacted the pitchers but I do think that the organization has placed unrealistic standards on their pitching coach, thinking he can solve everyone's problems and issues.

No pitching coach can cure every issue.

To think that Coop could solve, figure out, get good (hell decent), perfomances out of so many guys with a history of minimal success or control issue was simply unrelistic.

Lip


I agree with this. Cooper has taken some guys who have struggled at other places (Loaiza, Contreras, Thornton) and helped turn them into useful pitchers for the Sox. Because of that, I think there has been a "Coop will fix it" mentality in some of these acquisitions.

There are some pitchers who simply aren't mentally tough enough to succeed consistently in the big leagues (Floyd, Aardsma, Sisco), and no amount of coaching is going to change that.

ChiMan921
07-17-2007, 05:40 PM
The feedback from my post is outstanding - it's not even a matter of the "blame game, just a thought as to why this bullpen, with a few experienced throwers, end up being cannon fodder night after night. Having played a little ball in my time, a lot of this has to be directed towards fundamentals ( slidestep, double look to second, knowing how to pitch with a lead ) and mental readiness ( much of this is on the player, but a systemic loss of confidence is as much a coach / manager issue as it is a player issue.

You've got to believe in yourself, which the Sox staf did through mid-2006. What happened to that brimming confidence?:?:

wassagstdu
07-17-2007, 06:30 PM
The catastrophic bullpen failure is one of several really "interesting" issues that we will be talking about for years. Another is the pattern of shutting down the offense after the first time through the lineup -- and the related amazing 0-for-62 streak against relievers. And of course the first half melt-down of possibly the most potent offense in baseball turning into the worst in baseball.

My theories: A lot of power arms in the bullpen were maybe instructed to take a few mph off the fastball to locate better. Result? Alternating walks and meatball 93-mph fastballs. Why does the offense quit? It's all about adjustments. The opposing pitchers adjust to what the Sox are doing and the Sox are not able to adjust in response. Offensive meltdown? Dunno, but maybe too many Sox looking for a certain pitch to drive, not enough see-the-ball-hit-the-ball.

These things are real statistical outliers that seem like they must have a systemic explanation.

Hokiesox
07-17-2007, 06:38 PM
Let's not forget about Freddy Garcia who would seemingly stand there while the guy on First would score on a solo triple steal.

:rolling::rolling:

He used to drive me nuts doing that.

oldcomiskey
07-19-2007, 09:19 AM
The catastrophic bullpen failure is one of several really "interesting" issues that we will be talking about for years. Another is the pattern of shutting down the offense after the first time through the lineup -- and the related amazing 0-for-62 streak against relievers. And of course the first half melt-down of possibly the most potent offense in baseball turning into the worst in baseball.

My theories: A lot of power arms in the bullpen were maybe instructed to take a few mph off the fastball to locate better. Result? Alternating walks and meatball 93-mph fastballs. Why does the offense quit? It's all about adjustments. The opposing pitchers adjust to what the Sox are doing and the Sox are not able to adjust in response. Offensive meltdown? Dunno, but maybe too many Sox looking for a certain pitch to drive, not enough see-the-ball-hit-the-ball.

These things are real statistical outliers that seem like they must have a systemic explanation.

taling about the offense, they all have the same problem that has plagued the sox for years now. They all want to hit home runs. I think Ozzie was correct when he said the home run was a rally killer. How many times in 05 did the sox string together several hits in an inning, move runners along. etc? And how many times since 05 have they done that?

Steelrod
07-19-2007, 09:22 AM
:rolling::rolling:

He used to drive me nuts doing that.
You won't see it this ytear. He was put on the 60 day DL.

hose
07-19-2007, 09:29 AM
The first pitcher I can remember that had absolutely no regard for the base runner on first was Goose Gossage.

It drives me nuts when our pitchers don't do a good job in holding the runners close.

soxinem1
07-19-2007, 12:31 PM
The Sox have had a lot of pitchers not worth a damn holding runners over the years. In 2005 runners also took off at random, and this was further exploited in 2006.

What is more worrysome are the abilities of the minor leaguers when they come up. Day and Jenks, in particular, don't have a clue how to hold a runner. Buerhle and Garland are good, but I sure don't see any evidence that it was because of any instruction they received.

And not to start any 'Do it like the Twins' stuff, but you can tell that these guys are schooled on this stuff in both the minors and majors. Dennys Reyes has never had a successful stolen base attempt against him in a Twins uniform, while seven have been caught. Before that, he was one of the easiest, especially for a lefty, to run on. Guys like Santana and Guerrier are among the toughest to run on, and even Bonser can hold runners.

It's all the more reason to break up this minor league coaching and scouting system we have here.

Foulke You
07-19-2007, 12:50 PM
A.J.'s problem seems to be accuracy and not strength of the throw. He tends to throw to the opposite side of the bag or just a shade too high. Most of the runners are getting there just under the tag. If he can lower the aim of his throws, I think his percentage would go up. Also, as pointed out earlier, many of our pitchers allow huge jumps and huge leads which make A.J.'s job that much more difficult.

IlliniSox4Life
07-19-2007, 06:17 PM
The Sox have had a lot of pitchers not worth a damn holding runners over the years. In 2005 runners also took off at random, and this was further exploited in 2006.

What is more worrysome are the abilities of the minor leaguers when they come up. Day and Jenks, in particular, don't have a clue how to hold a runner. Buerhle and Garland are good, but I sure don't see any evidence that it was because of any instruction they received.

And not to start any 'Do it like the Twins' stuff, but you can tell that these guys are schooled on this stuff in both the minors and majors. Dennys Reyes has never had a successful stolen base attempt against him in a Twins uniform, while seven have been caught. Before that, he was one of the easiest, especially for a lefty, to run on. Guys like Santana and Guerrier are among the toughest to run on, and even Bonser can hold runners.

It's all the more reason to break up this minor league coaching and scouting system we have here.

To be fair, Jenks didn't spend much time in our system, IIRC. I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist, but I don't think Jenks would be a symptom of that problem.

Also, with guys like Contreras, there's very little that Coop can actually do. Jose might just be the oldest guy in the league, you can't teach him a whole lot. Freddy was also a fairly established guy who already had his habits before coming here. It seems like our worst offenders didn't necessarily come up through our system. Obviously, Coop should try and get them to hold guys correctly, but sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Frontman
07-19-2007, 09:21 PM
Yes, its Don Cooper's fault that AJ can't throw out runners.