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View Full Version : 7/16/2007 Ozzie Postgame Comment that Upset Me


Soxfanspcu11
07-17-2007, 04:02 AM
Okay, so we all know that Monday's game was crazy and I can understand that some comments made by the players/coaches after the game were made out of anger and/or frustration. However, this particular comment by Ozzie left me some what troubled;


How many games have we lost? 50? I would rather lose 50 games then to put Jenks in during the eighth to protect the bullpen," Guillen said. "I would rather lose the game.
"Now, the leash is real short, even a [foot], that's how short it is. If you are not doing your job, we will make changes for better or for worse."

Here is the full link/story from Whitesox.com; http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070716&content_id=2089752&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws


I read this and my immediate reaction was "***?!?!?!:?::angry:"

And as I read it over and over, that is still my reaction! WHAT THE HELL IS HE SAYING HERE?!?!?!

He is not going to put Jenks in during the 8th? He would RATHER lose the game?!?!?! What the **** kind of sense does that make?!?!?!

I do understand the point that he is trying to make about the bullpen, but to say, "I would rather lose". What the crap is that Ozzie?!?!?!:angry:

You would "rather lose"????? At this point, you have to take victories ANYWAY that you can get them!!!

Obviously a 9 run lead is not enough. Obviously the biggest offensive inning of the year is not enough. For a team that is this far back, a win is a win, no matter what. Saying that, "I would rather lose" is just totally wrong, especially after what this team has been doing on the field so far.

And the 2nd sentence didn't exactly make me much happier. "We will make changes for BETTER OR FOR WORSE":?: Huh?

It seems to me that you should probably make changes for THE BETTER, not the worse. At this point, Joe Crede pitching on crutches would be better than the bullpen. I can not imagine it getting any worse. But if there is a possible way to make a change "for the worse", you should probably avoid that. But hey, I am not a MLB manager, so what would I know!:rolleyes:


I dunno, perhaps I am overreacting. And maybe I should just give Ozzie a pass on this one considering what happened on the field on Monday.

But comments like these, man, they just piss me off something royal!!!

Again, I can understand the frustration, but that one line inparticular REALLY got to me. "I would rather lose".:angry::angry::angry:

NO OZZIE!!!!! THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!!!!

Grzegorz
07-17-2007, 05:43 AM
Okay, so we all know that Monday's game was crazy and I can understand that some comments made by the players/coaches after the game were made out of anger and/or frustration. However, this particular comment by Ozzie left me some what troubled;


How many games have we lost? 50? I would rather lose 50 games then to put Jenks in during the eighth to protect the bullpen," Guillen said. "I would rather lose the game.
"Now, the leash is real short, even a [foot], that's how short it is. If you are not doing your job, we will make changes for better or for worse."

Here is the full link/story from Whitesox.com; http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070716&content_id=2089752&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws


Emphasis mine...

You don't get it; the language barrier makes it difficult for Ozzie to convey his thought succinctly. :D:

He's wrong; he's clearly frustrated but to make those comments add to the litany of complaints about his skill at managing a team.

The press needs to hound him about this until he retracts his statement.

ws05champs
07-17-2007, 08:20 AM
Sometimes you have to take a tactical loss to gain a strategic victory. I'm sure Ozzie does not really wants to lose but given the alternative of burning out Jenks vs. maybe getting a win (Jenks does not do well when brought in in the 8th) Ozzie would rather take the loss.

lostfan
07-17-2007, 08:45 AM
I don't really see what's to be upset about it here... I mean Ozzie probably could've phrased it better since he was talking out of frustration, but I don't see the point in overworking Jenks and possibly losing more games because the rest of your bullpen sucks.

I mean, you have Jenks pitch 6-7 innings in 3 days, in order to accomplish... what, exactly?

voodoochile
07-17-2007, 08:58 AM
A few thoughts...

First, this season is effectively over from a playoff perspective. Yeah, there's a chance the Sox could still climb back into the race, but what's the likelihood, 10%? Less? Why risk injuring the one piece of the bullpen you know you want back next year by overworking him for what is effectively a lost cause?

Secondly, Ozzie's words can be read as calling out KW to make some moves if he truly wants the Sox to stand a chance. The second half of those comments can actually be read that way. KW has said he's in buyers mode. Well, it's time to **** or get off the pot, KW. Bring in some relievers who can hold a lead by hook or by crook or start trading off the pieces that have value who won't be here next year.

seventyseven
07-17-2007, 09:18 AM
I dunno, perhaps I am overreacting. And maybe I should just give Ozzie a pass on this one considering what happened on the field on Monday.

But comments like these, man, they just piss me off something royal!!!

Again, I can understand the frustration, but that one line inparticular REALLY got to me. "I would rather lose".:angry::angry::angry:

NO OZZIE!!!!! THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!!!!

You are overreacting. Ozzie is simply saying that he can't run Jenks out there everytime a game gets close. Other pitchers need to do their job. Ozzie would rather lose a game than have Bobby's arm fall off. That's all he's saying.

seventyseven
07-17-2007, 09:20 AM
The press needs to hound him about this until he retracts his statement.

Obviously, you've been paying close attention to Ozzie's managerial tenure. :rolleyes:

chaerulez
07-17-2007, 09:25 AM
You are overreacting. Ozzie is simply saying that he can't run Jenks out there everytime a game gets close. Other pitchers need to do their job. Ozzie would rather lose a game than have Bobby's arm fall off. That's all he's saying.

I agree with this assessment. I think it's hard to clearly understand what he's saying because of the way he speaks English, but I think Ozzie is trying to say he can't just bring in Jenks in the 8th every time there is a bullpen problem. And I agree with Ozzie, he can't wear down our only reliable bullpen arm just because everyone else sucks.

DrCrawdad
07-17-2007, 09:28 AM
You are overreacting. Ozzie is simply saying that he can't run Jenks out there everytime a game gets close. Other pitchers need to do their job. Ozzie would rather lose a game than have Bobby's arm fall off. That's all he's saying.

That's the way I understood his comment.

DumpJerry
07-17-2007, 09:36 AM
You are overreacting. Ozzie is simply saying that he can't run Jenks out there everytime a game gets close. Other pitchers need to do their job. Ozzie would rather lose a game than have Bobby's arm fall off. That's all he's saying.
Agreed. I don't see what the fuss is all about. When I heard the statement last night, I agreed with it. You don't want to overuse your closer.

Setup guys are the ones who are supposed to get the job done in the 7th and 8th. If they aren't, they should get a real estate agent license or Insurance salesperson license or some other work outside of baseball.

Come to think of it, an insurance license might not be a good idea. Would you buy a policy from a guy who cannot protect a lead?

southside rocks
07-17-2007, 10:33 AM
I didn't find the statement at all upsetting. I thought it was Ozzie saying that the bullpen he has, aside from his closer, can't hold a lead.

And therefore, they will lose games.

Because you can't, you simply cannot, burn out your closer to cover for the ****ty job done by your setup guys.

It's not that Ozzie wants to lose games. But are a few more wins this year worth the wear and tear on Bobby Jenks? No manager would say that they are, unless it's a pennant-race situation.

Which this isn't. :(:

Ozzie seems like he is going to force all the bullpen guys to show, once and for all, how good or bad they really are. And then some of them will find themselves tossed off the team. Yes, in the process, the Sox will probably lose some games. But this is a necessary step, IMO.

salty99
07-17-2007, 10:35 AM
I don't get why he's getting this upset now. We all know the bullpen has stunk for almost the whole season. This is not a new development.

russ99
07-17-2007, 10:40 AM
I don't get why he's getting this upset now. We all know the bullpen has stunk for almost the whole season. This is not a new development.

No, but Kenny not doing anything to fix it except bring in more minor-leaguers certainly has me frustrated, and it sounds like Ozzie is too.

Can't blame the guy either, he's got to go with the horses he's given. Since MacDougal has had his problems, the Sox haven't had a true set-up guy, and Thornton certainly isn't the answer. He's a bridge guy at best.

I don't know what the problem Kenny has with making a trade, when we needed a guy he'd go out and get one in seasons past. We've needed another outfielder (instead of AAA guys like Terrero & Owens) most of the season too.

Shot in the dark - maybe Jerry won't let KW add anymore payroll this season?

southside rocks
07-17-2007, 10:45 AM
I think it's the availability of relievers -- or lack of it -- that has KW limited in his trade options.

Bullpens are terrible on a lot of clubs this year. Relievers who are doing okay-to-good aren't going to be traded and those who are doing bad-to-terrible are already represented on the Sox. Realistically, are there a lot of possible trades that KW could make? And what would he have to give up in return? I suspect the going rates for relief pitching are higher than we know.

russ99
07-17-2007, 10:49 AM
I think it's the availability of relievers -- or lack of it -- that has KW limited in his trade options.

Bullpens are terrible on a lot of clubs this year. Relievers who are doing okay-to-good aren't going to be traded and those who are doing bad-to-terrible are already represented on the Sox. Realistically, are there a lot of possible trades that KW could make? And what would he have to give up in return? I suspect the going rates for relief pitching are higher than we know.

I'm not saying that the market is limited or he might have to give up too much, especially that other GMs know how desperate the Sox are for relief help, but he's got to do something. I can see waiting for the market to free up a month ago, but we're now under 2 weeks to go to the trade deadline.

End-of season FA's like Julio and Linebrink are available, and Kenny might have to trade a few decent prospects to get one, but the Sox system hasn't exactly been the font of blooming superstars this year. There's a few untouchables, like Gio and Sweeney, but I'm sure Kenny could put together a decent package.

If we pass the deadline with the same sorry relief corps, I'll be quite disappointed in Kenny. It's pretty much giving up on any chance to be a .500 club this season, which is the best we can expect.

voodoochile
07-17-2007, 11:50 AM
I don't get why he's getting this upset now. We all know the bullpen has stunk for almost the whole season. This is not a new development.

Probably because the rest of the team has actually started to show signs of life recently. I mean the bullpen's failures have been even more dramatically evident since the AS break. It's truly sad that one aspect of the team is failing so greatly while the rest has shown signs of being capable of a second half run - probably won't matter anyway, but it can't be fun to be experiencing it first hand like the current team members are...

oeo
07-17-2007, 12:35 PM
Secondly, Ozzie's words can be read as calling out KW to make some moves if he truly wants the Sox to stand a chance. The second half of those comments can actually be read that way. KW has said he's in buyers mode. Well, it's time to **** or get off the pot, KW. Bring in some relievers who can hold a lead by hook or by crook or start trading off the pieces that have value who won't be here next year.

Or get his current relievers fired up and hopefully someone (anyone???) can take over that setup role.

If you would have told me before the season that both of our setup men (Thornton and MacDougal) would be this bad, I would have said you were crazy. The difference those two are making right now is huge.

Lip Man 1
07-17-2007, 12:37 PM
I thought Mark Buehrle's comment to Joe Cowley today was more revealing that guys 'need to be demoted soon.'

Couple that with Ozzie's comment about his veterans starting to ask him 'what's going on?' and it looks like the frustration over this awful bullpen is reaching the boiling point.

Lip

TDog
07-17-2007, 01:01 PM
...
I dunno, perhaps I am overreacting. And maybe I should just give Ozzie a pass on this one considering what happened on the field on Monday.

But comments like these, man, they just piss me off something royal!!!

Again, I can understand the frustration, but that one line inparticular REALLY got to me. "I would rather lose".:angry::angry::angry:

NO OZZIE!!!!! THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!!!!

Yes, you are overreacting. First of all, any plan of action the manager has at this point is subject to change. Logan is used differently now than he when he he was called up this year because he has demonstrated that he can be tough in the clutch against good left-handed hitters. What Ozzie Guillen says in frustration after a difficult game is not religious dogma or judicial case law.

Secondly, I believe the last three blown saves the White Sox have experienced have come from Jenks' efforts. And two of those Bobby Jenks blown saves have come in games where he entered in the eighth inning. Bringing Jenks into the game in the eighth inning hasn't been working. It's entirely possible that the reason Day came in with two out in the eighth when an out was desperately needed was that Guillen was already exercising his new no-Jenks-before-the-ninth policy.

Wilbur Wood usually came in before the ninth inning. When LaMarr Hoyt was the Sox best reliever, he often came in before the ninth. Bobby Thigpen got multi-inning saves. I don't know the number, but he had at least one three-inning save. There is a school of thought that you should bring in your best reliever at the most critical point in the game, even if it's in the seventh inning. People who advocate this don't believe it's more critical for a pitcher to get out of the jam than finish the game. Of course, that means he wouldn't get the save. It's all about stats anymore.

Law11
07-17-2007, 01:04 PM
I have no issue with this at all.
yeh lets just put Bobby in everygame in the 8th and 9th. Then have his elbow flair up and wind up having a serious issue.

He's the closer , not set up and closer.
Thats waht a bullpen is for. if they cant do it, so be it we lose.

The seasons over anyway so why risk injury to Bobby..

areilly
07-17-2007, 02:37 PM
I'm not an MLB manager, nor will I ever be, but I agree with what he's saying. Your closer is your closer, and if the rest of your bullpen is such a pile of crap that you have to call on him for two innings every time just to keep the team from blowing a NINE RUN LEAD, it's probably wiser to just take the loss given the way this year's team is headed anyway.

Personally, I think if you even come that close to flushing that big a lead down the toilet, you deserve to lose.