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View Full Version : Time to Groom a new closer, Jerry


captain54
04-04-2002, 01:12 AM
Ok Jerry, stay asleep at the wheel and continue to go with "Your Guy"....

This going to be a long year.....

Keith Foulke is not the answer...this guy blew some key games for us last year and
he wasn't exactly stellar in the playoffs either.....What's wrong with grooming a new
guy like we did when Thigpen blew up and we took Roberto Hernandez off the scrap heap??

Foulke could be used as setup....anything but a closer at this point.....in critical games and situations
he doesnt have it....

And why not take him out in the ninth when he obviously doesnt have it....???/

didnt we learn last year that the game in April and May are just as important as the ones later???

Hell, I could manage if I automatically brought the same guy out in the ninth no matter what.....
Start earning your money Nardi and Jerry.....

MattSharp
04-04-2002, 08:32 AM
I love Foulke, but part of me thinks you right :(

Bmr31
04-04-2002, 09:17 AM
ive said this before and i will say it again Keith foulke is NOT A CLOSER. Keith will NEVER be a closer. Hes an excellent set up guy.

hold2dibber
04-04-2002, 09:19 AM
I'm sorry, but this is absolutely ridiculous. To say Foulke "doesn't have it in critical situations" is absurd. By just about any analysis, Foulke has been one of the top 3 or 4 relievers in baseball over the past few years and every time he is in a game it is a "critical situation". Fans always dislike closers, because when they fail, the result is a heart breaking loss. But Keith Foulke is one of the best in the game; for most of the last two seasons he has been virtually automatic. He has blown a few big games, but if you look, as an example, at last night, if Clayton comes up with Sierra's shot (and he should have), game over, we win, Foulke gets the save. Same with the blown save at the Hump Dome last year - all dink hits that found a hole (except for Hocking's game winner). He has had some bad luck in those games. To think we can simply groom someone else to be as good as Foulke has been is absurd. Foulke always goes through a stretch or two during the season when he doesn't have good command of his changeup and he gets knocked around a little. It never lasts long, and as soon as he figures out the necessary adjustment, he is awesome again. Foulke is the man - don't freak out just because he blew one last night.

Kilroy
04-04-2002, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
ive said this before and i will say it again Keith foulke is NOT A CLOSER. Keith will NEVER be a closer. Hes an excellent set up guy.

Oh God, no. Please, people, do not feed the dog. Just let it sniff and it will leave before too long...

Bmr31
04-04-2002, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Oh God, no. Please, people, do not feed the dog. Just let it sniff and it will leave before too long...

LOL!

Bmr31
04-04-2002, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I'm sorry, but this is absolutely ridiculous. To say Foulke "doesn't have it in critical situations" is absurd. By just about any analysis, Foulke has been one of the top 3 or 4 relievers in baseball over the past few years and every time he is in a game it is a "critical situation". Fans always dislike closers, because when they fail, the result is a heart breaking loss. But Keith Foulke is one of the best in the game; for most of the last two seasons he has been virtually automatic. He has blown a few big games, but if you look, as an example, at last night, if Clayton comes up with Sierra's shot (and he should have), game over, we win, Foulke gets the save. Same with the blown save at the Hump Dome last year - all dink hits that found a hole (except for Hocking's game winner). He has had some bad luck in those games. To think we can simply groom someone else to be as good as Foulke has been is absurd. Foulke always goes through a stretch or two during the season when he doesn't have good command of his changeup and he gets knocked around a little. It never lasts long, and as soon as he figures out the necessary adjustment, he is awesome again. Foulke is the man - don't freak out just because he blew one last night.

can he blow away a good hitter with the game on the line? No? then hes gonna continue to get shelled in big games.

bradp
04-04-2002, 09:27 AM
Is it just me, or was Foulke's delivery all messed up last night? It looked like he was releasing the ball VERY late on some pitches, sending them into the dirt.

I think Foulke has a tendency to cough up, not necessarily big games, but what I call swing games (like Minnesota last year). He's a good closer, the Sox don't have anyone else (don't even think about Osuna; the Dodgers tried that and he's no better).

Stick with Foulke and lets hope the Sox bounce back from this.

hold2dibber
04-04-2002, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


can he blow away a good hitter with the game on the line? No? then hes gonna continue to get shelled in big games.

Are you kidding? Abso-friggin'-lutely. I've seen him do it time and time again. He gets 'em off balance with the change and then blows a high heater past them. He does it ALL the time. Plus, a closer does not have to have a great fastball to be a great closer. Eckersley didn't have a great fastball, Sutter didn't have a great fastball, Hoffman doesn't have a great fastball. And because Foulke's change-up is so devastating, his fastball is that much better (because batters cannot distinguish it from the change-up until it is too late). The numbers speak for themselves - Foulke is one of the best closers in baseball.

Kilroy
04-04-2002, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Are you kidding? Abso-friggin'-lutely. I've seen him do it time and time again. He gets 'em off balance with the change and then blows a high heater past them.

Please!! Do not feed the dog!!!

duke of dorwood
04-04-2002, 09:39 AM
Closer is way down on the list of things to change. Remember If the Choice makes that play, we win.

Iwritecode
04-04-2002, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Are you kidding? Abso-friggin'-lutely. I've seen him do it time and time again. He gets 'em off balance with the change and then blows a high heater past them. He does it ALL the time. Plus, a closer does not have to have a great fastball to be a great closer. Eckersley didn't have a great fastball, Sutter didn't have a great fastball, Hoffman doesn't have a great fastball. And because Foulke's change-up is so devastating, his fastball is that much better (because batters cannot distinguish it from the change-up until it is too late). The numbers speak for themselves - Foulke is one of the best closers in baseball.

I aggree. He doesnt' have to have 100MPH fast ball to "blow a hitter away". It just has to look like it's 100MPH. Which he does quite well. Either that, you they are sitting on his fastball and he makes them look stupid with his change. BTW, is it just me or is Osuna challenging Foulke for best changeup? He made a couple of guys look really bad last night too...

hold2dibber
04-04-2002, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Please!! Do not feed the dog!!!

You're right, you're right. I've been taking the bait and feeding the dog (to mix metaphors). No more - I'm done.

hold2dibber
04-04-2002, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


I aggree. He doesnt' have to have 100MPH fast ball to "blow a hitter away". It just has to look like it's 100MPH. Which he does quite well. Either that, you they are sitting on his fastball and he makes them look stupid with his change. BTW, is it just me or is Osuna challenging Foulke for best changeup? He made a couple of guys look really bad last night too...

I thought Osuna look great. All of his pitches had great movement and he did make some hitters look silly. If he continus to be solid, that will go a LONG way towards resolving our bullpen woes.

Kilroy
04-04-2002, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Closer is way down on the list of things to change. Remember If the Choice makes that play, we win.

Don't even try that ****. If Foulke doesn't give up 6 hits in the bottom of the 9th, we win, bottom line. The one you're talking about is just one of them, and by all accounts, a was very difficult chance. There was five other hits that had a little something to do with it. Stop looking for a reason to blame Royce. Besides, they don't even have the lead if he doesn't hit a 3-run jack. No one else did a damn thing after.

Moses_Scurry
04-04-2002, 10:54 AM
Ricky Botalico, Heathcliff Slocumb, Jeff Montgomery, Mark Wohlers, Duane Ward, Bobby Thigpen, Dave Smith, Doug Jones, Jeff Henneman, Jose Mesa, Rick Auguilera, Gregg Olson, Mitch Williams, and Mel Rojas.

What do they all have in common? They were great unhittable closers for 2 or 3 seasons and then fell off the face of the earth.

I'm not saying that Foulke will become part of the list. I realize he only has blown one save. For all I know, he will save the next 50 in a row and finish the season with a microscopic 1.42 ERA.

But, how long do you wait to find out if he still has it? How many losses do you endure? How many games do you fall out of first before the decision is made to try out someone new? Do you wait until they are hopelessly out of it and just hope for better luck next year? Or do you give Foulke a set amount of opportunities to keep his job?

ode to veeck
04-04-2002, 12:59 PM
I'll never stop looking for an opportunity to blame Choice!!!

:bart

hold2dibber
04-04-2002, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Moses_Scurry

But, how long do you wait to find out if he still has it? How many losses do you endure?

Well, certainly more than one.

Iwritecode
04-04-2002, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Don't even try that ****. If Foulke doesn't give up 6 hits in the bottom of the 9th, we win, bottom line. The one you're talking about is just one of them, and by all accounts, a was very difficult chance. There was five other hits that had a little something to do with it. Stop looking for a reason to blame Royce. Besides, they don't even have the lead if he doesn't hit a 3-run jack. No one else did a damn thing after.

I also mentioned this in another thread (or another board I don't remember which). I do admit though I'm not blaming Royce for the loss. (Wow, what's wrong with me? :smile: ) It was a difficult play and the ump got in his line of sight which caused him to overrun the ball in the first place. It's just one of those lucky breaks the M's seem to always get against us (and everyone else for that matter).

Joel Perez
04-04-2002, 01:24 PM
You don't have to have a 100-MPH fastball to be successful in the big leagues...Jamie Moyer is proving that right now. Tommy Glavine is another example.

One game does not make a season.

But a repeat of Wednesday night would then be cause for concern. Better have Ed Almonte ready.

CerberusWG
04-04-2002, 02:47 PM
Something I noticed about Foulke's last two outings:

He isn't throwing the changeup as much.

It's just fastball, fastball, fastball.

oldcomiskey
04-04-2002, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Don't even try that ****. If Foulke doesn't give up 6 hits in the bottom of the 9th, we win, bottom line. The one you're talking about is just one of them, and by all accounts, a was very difficult chance. There was five other hits that had a little something to do with it. Stop looking for a reason to blame Royce. Besides, they don't even have the lead if he doesn't hit a 3-run jack. No one else did a damn thing after.

so lets see here--he hates Foulke but likes Clayton---methinks he has his priorities out of whack here

OfficerKarkovice
04-04-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey


so lets see here--he hates Foulke but likes Clayton---methinks he has his priorities out of whack here

Not necessarily...I agree with him...it wasn't Choice's fault that Foulke couldn't get a guy out, that one play to short didn't lose us the game Keith Foulke did, he couldn't get anybody out and that's the bottom line. And like he said...Royce doesn't hit that HR and we never lead to begin with.

oldcomiskey
04-04-2002, 04:31 PM
I know---but I hate Clayton

Mathew
04-04-2002, 06:01 PM
I havn't heard yet, so I'll ask...I wasn't watching the gameb ut the score was now 6-6 and the count 0-2. Why not waste a couple? What did the last hit look like?

Mathew
04-04-2002, 06:01 PM
How about this quote.

"It is tough to explain," White Sox manager Jerry Manuel said. "They kept chipping away, putting pretty good at-bats on us. We will eventually get things settled down in the bullpen and we will be fine."