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chisox77
07-16-2007, 01:02 PM
It has been a rough season for us proud White Sox fans. In spite of the sluggish offensive start the Sox have had, the major reason for failure has been the bullpen. Painful as memories are, they can also lead to humor as we recall some of the worst arms to ever be called from the Palehose Pen throughout the years.

Please allow me to throw the first lame pitch(er):

1. Jose Paniagua (remember '03 against the Twins at home)

AND FOR HONORABLE MENTION:

2. The reliever Terry Bevington thought was ready when he motioned for a change when of course, no one was warming up.

:?:

KenBerryGrab
07-16-2007, 01:09 PM
Juan Agosto

Irishsox1
07-16-2007, 01:11 PM
There was a guy on the 1999 team, Bryan Ward...man did that guy suck. Here are is stats from 1999, 40 games, 39.3 innings, 63 hits, 10 Homeruns, 11 Walks, 7.55 ERA.

SOXfnNlansing
07-16-2007, 01:12 PM
vizz the fizz

jackbrohamer
07-16-2007, 01:13 PM
I was going to vote for Steve Kealey but I looked up his stats and he was not nearly as bad as I remembered him being.

Right now I'd pick any Sox relief pitcher this year, except for Jenks and maybe Masset.

itsnotrequired
07-16-2007, 01:13 PM
Ken Hill in 2000:

1/3 IP, 5 H, 8 R, 6 BB, 0 K

At least he didn't give up a HR.

Jenks4Prez
07-16-2007, 01:14 PM
No Question about it....
Billy Koch
This guy sucked

itsnotrequired
07-16-2007, 01:18 PM
No Question about it....
Billy Koch
This guy sucked

Eh, he had his moments.

Flight #24
07-16-2007, 01:20 PM
Rick White, anyone? But really Paniagua has to take the cake. He's the Jaime Navarro of RPs, combining poor performance with a bad attitude.

ND_Sox_Fan
07-16-2007, 01:21 PM
Mike Jackson in 2004. While his 5.14 ERA looks okay compared to our current crop, the number of inherited runners that he allowed to score were unparalleled. If anyone can find that stat, it would be quite telling. I can remember two grand slams where the runners were not his.

chisox77
07-16-2007, 01:22 PM
I might have witnessed one of Koch's worst outings. It was against KC in April of 2004, second home game of the season. He blew a decent lead pretty quicly. I remember Mike Sweeney's homerun (it was crushed) that gave the Royals the lead . . .

but fortunately for the Sox, KC couldn't hold the lead either as Joe Crede delievered the game winning hit.

:cool:

UserNameBlank
07-16-2007, 01:25 PM
Considering Rick White and Mike Jackson have already been added, there really can't be anyone worse. Paniagua doesn't count. He was just a bad dream. Never happened.

oeo
07-16-2007, 01:36 PM
Mike Jackson in 2004. While his 5.14 ERA looks okay compared to our current crop, the number of inherited runners that he allowed to score were unparalleled. If anyone can find that stat, it would be quite telling. I can remember two grand slams where the runners were not his.

I believe he holds the record for most Grand Slams given up by a relief pitcher (all time). I swear that piece of **** would just serve it up. Then he wouldn't hit Torii after he bowled over Burke because they were "friends." I still hate that guy, and I usually do not hate anyone on the Sox...this guy was an exception.

BainesHOF
07-16-2007, 01:38 PM
Juan Agosto

He'd be our second-best reliever this year.

Chicken Dinner
07-16-2007, 01:41 PM
As a group, the current pen is right up there. :angry:

thomas35forever
07-16-2007, 01:51 PM
Koch, Koch, Koch

The conversation begins and ends there.

eriqjaffe
07-16-2007, 01:52 PM
Nick Masset is on my short list of worst relievers in baseball history, much less just on the Sox.

itsnotrequired
07-16-2007, 01:53 PM
Nick Masset is on my short list of worst relievers in baseball history, much less just on the Sox.

Get real...

oeo
07-16-2007, 01:57 PM
Nick Masset is on my short list of worst relievers in baseball history, much less just on the Sox.

We currently have worse relievers in our bullpen than Masset. He's a 25-year-old starting pitcher with pretty good stuff...he sucks.

NoNeckEra
07-16-2007, 02:00 PM
Juan DISGUSTO

Fixed it for you.

But Koch has to take it since he had high expectations. Real bad short relievers(like Mike Jackson) don't last long enough to do much long term damage.
Billy Koch was a disaster.

Chicken Dinner
07-16-2007, 02:03 PM
We currently have worse relievers in our bullpen than Masset. He's a 25-year-old starting pitcher with pretty good stuff...he sucks.

Massets right there.


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/chw/stats/bycategory?cat=Pitching&type=0

eriqjaffe
07-16-2007, 02:13 PM
I'm not arguing that Masset has good stuff, or that he's a starter being misused, or that he has a potentially bright future.

But, as a reliever, this year, he has been godawful.

Take his one start out, and he's got an ERA of 7.91 and a WHIP of 2.15, with more walks than strikeouts. He's just been nothing short of horrendous out of the pen.

russ99
07-16-2007, 02:52 PM
Two from back in the day...

Salome Barojas, Bob James (has a mental problem...)

JB98
07-16-2007, 03:03 PM
Two from back in the day...

Salome Barojas, Bob James (has a mental problem...)

I was going to go with Bob James too. As a kid, one of our schoolyard taunts was, "Oh, yeah? Well, your favorite Sox player is Big Bob James!"

That was actually considered a grave insult. James sucked.

I always thought Jerry Don Gleaton was horse**** too.

ChiMan921
07-16-2007, 03:06 PM
I'll second that Billy Koch debacle. Not only did he suck, he got paid beu coup bucks to suck!:angry:

roylestillman
07-16-2007, 03:10 PM
Pablo Torrealba.

Case closed.

eriqjaffe
07-16-2007, 03:10 PM
I was going to go with Bob James too. As a kid, one of our schoolyard taunts was, "Oh, yeah? Well, your favorite Sox player is Big Bob James!"

That was actually considered a grave insult. James sucked.Must've been '86 or '87, then?

JB98
07-16-2007, 03:14 PM
Must've been '86 or '87, then?

I'd say it was probably '86. I would have been 10 years old. Sounds about right.

billcissell
07-16-2007, 03:17 PM
Rick White, Cy Acosta, Salome Barojas, Matt Karchner, Koch ... just a few off the top of my head. All would fit in very well with this year's bullpen disaster.

roylestillman
07-16-2007, 03:29 PM
Two from back in the day...

Salome Barojas, Bob James (has a mental problem...)


To this day I can't face someone with James as a last name and not hear that Bruce Wolff/ Johnny B. drop-in playing through my head.

mccoydp
07-16-2007, 03:38 PM
vizz the fizz

I didn't think he was bad...would love to have him in the 'pen this year!

soxinem1
07-16-2007, 03:43 PM
I remember Mike Stanton in 1985 blowing an easy save against BAL. Nobody on, two out, ninth inning. Bob James blows out his knee with two strikes, then Stanton comes in, gives up a line drive hit on his first pitch, and blows the game after an opposite field HR by Fred Lynn...... Ugh!

others I remember of note:

Carlos Castillo: Home grown, literally. Ate his way to about 300 lbs. of suckage.

John Davis: Couldn't throw a strike if his life depended on it, unless it was to allow a HR.

Rob Dibble: Done for by the time he came here.

Brian Drahman: okay in mop up, but stunk in key situations.

Tom Fordam: couldn't throw a strike if the entire side of a barn was the strike zone.

Atlee Hammaker: was done for by the time he came here.

Guy Hoffman: the little guy who didn't have MLB stuff really stunk towards the end of his Sox time.

Dane Johnson: Lamont had a thing for this guy. He kept using him to set up Hernandez, he kept making it interesting. It took two years for Geno to realize you are not a 31 year old rookie for a reason.

Brian Keyser: home grown scrub

Don Kirkwood: I remember him on the '77 team, he was brutal

Isidro Marquez: We traded Ron Coomer for this?

Jose Paniagua: We all know about this goof....

Jesus Pena: Left handed version of the guy just mentioned.

Steve Rosenberg: Mayor of Scrub City

David Sanders: Succeeded the guy above as mayor.

Ron Scheuler: sucked as a pitcher, GM, etc.

Larry Thomas: LH specialist who couldn't get the key outs often enough.

Ken Vining: one of the 'plus' arms Schuler got in the White Flag trade.
Bryan Ward: Chief Arsonist

Jim Winn: one of those 'NL is the best' chumps who couldn't get anyone out in the AL minus a month in a half time span in 1987 when he was a closer.

oeo
07-16-2007, 03:52 PM
Massets right there.


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/chw/stats/bycategory?cat=Pitching&type=0

I'm not comparing his numbers to the other relievers...instead comparing the pitchers. Bukvich, Aardsma, Sisco, Logan, Day, Haeger, etc. do not have the promise that Masset holds as a SP. He's not a bad pitcher; he's struggling out of the pen, but if we were to trade a SP, I would definitely hand the ball to Masset to start.

If we're going to talk terrible relievers, I'm thinking Billy Koch, Mike Jackson, etc. Those guys weren't worth a damn.

oeo
07-16-2007, 03:54 PM
I didn't think he was bad...would love to have him in the 'pen this year!

He wasn't bad at all. He had a rough start to the season, and everyone put the tag on him that he sucked, but he was actually very solid. After a bad April and May he was very, very good for us.

skottyj242
07-16-2007, 03:56 PM
Paniauga, while bad, pitched what, 1/3 of an inning? I heart Billy Koch.

Hitmen77
07-16-2007, 04:20 PM
Jose Paniague, Ken Hill....geez, are the Sox the only team that picks up these has-beens practially off the street and have them fail so badly? I just don't remember other teams having this kind of embarassment where their best option is someone who is obviously finished and can't even last 1/3 of an inning.

The Sox lack of position players to succeed from the minors is well documented, but what about pitching? We are supposedly rich in pitching - but when was the last time we had a pitcher from our system succeed? Buehrle and Garland came up 6 or 7 years ago. Jenks we got on waivers from Anaheim. McCarthy is the only one I can think of that came up through our system in recent years and had some success - but he struggled last year and is struggling again this year...at least we were able to trade him for Danks and Masset. When was the last time we brought up a reliever through our system that had success in the majors? Is there even anyone on the horizon from our farm system that can help us in the pen at some point?

[/rant]

slavko
07-16-2007, 04:26 PM
Who can forget Juan Disgusto, as so many of you did not. Yet, 2 years after his sorry ass was kicked out of here, he went 10-2 with a 2.23 ERA for Houston. Look it up. He was the hottest bullpen guy in the NL.

Relievers are a funny kind of horse, inpossible to handicap sometimes. Remember our lockdown middle relief corps of Politte, Cotts, and Viz from '05? Do you want them back right now? As is, of course.

getonbckthr
07-16-2007, 04:28 PM
You guys all realize Billy Koch had some sort of rare disease while he played here right? His whole family was infected by it. I think might still be affected by it to this day.
http://www.ktvu.com/news/9264350/detail.html

Chicken Dinner
07-16-2007, 04:31 PM
I'm not comparing his numbers to the other relievers...instead comparing the pitchers. Bukvich, Aardsma, Sisco, Logan, Day, Haeger, etc. do not have the promise that Masset holds as a SP. He's not a bad pitcher; he's struggling out of the pen, but if we were to trade a SP, I would definitely hand the ball to Masset to start.

I don't get all the Masset love. The guy has been awful this year....god awful. Why would you give the ball to him to start? Because of the one start he made at Wrigley? The guys numbers are pathetic, plain and simple.

Railsplitter
07-16-2007, 04:34 PM
I remeber Doug James of WMAQ discussing a Sox game one morning in 1985. When somebody asked what he was aiming at, he replied. "I'd like to be aiming at Juan Agusto with a brick!"

TDog
07-16-2007, 04:43 PM
Most of the people mentioned here had some pretty good moments with the Sox. I think Bob James held the White Sox saves record briefly, before Bobby Thigpen shattered it. Pablo Torrealba came into the second game of the 1978 season with the White Sox down 5-0 to Boston and shut the Red Sox down on no runs and just one hit for more than three innings to get the win in a thrilling 6-5 game. (I took my little brother to see perhaps the only game in which Carl Yastrzemski dropped a fly ball.) Even Billy Koch struck out the only three hitters h, e faced to save the 2003 White Sox opener.

I can't think of anything good about Rob Dibble's time with the White Sox. All I remember is bad. Like the time the White Sox had a two-run lead in California. They brought in Dibble, who walked the first hitter, then got the next guy to hit into a doubleplay. Two out and none on. The Angels tied it without hitting a ball fair. The next five guys were either walked or hit with pitches.

The all-time worst reliever I can recall is Todd Rizzo, a southpaw who debuted on April 2, 1998. The Rangers won that night, 20-4. Rizzo came in with two outs in the Rangers' 10-run seventh. There were two out and a man on third with two runs in. He gave up four hits, two walks and a wild pitch. He retired no one, and allowed the inherited runner to score. In all fairness, three of the six runs he gave up came on a grand slam surrendered by Tom Fordham, who got the last out in the inning. The next day, Rizzo got three guys out in Tampa Bay, and only gave up three runs. His career lasted 12 games, including 1999, but only eight innings. His career ERA was 12.38.

The relievers most of you remember were worse than the ones you do.

eriqjaffe
07-16-2007, 04:48 PM
You guys all realize Billy Koch had some sort of rare disease while he played here right? His whole family was infected by it. I think might still be affected by it to this day.
http://www.ktvu.com/news/9264350/detail.htmlI don't remember hearing about that, but it all makes sense now.

The disease is characterized by slow healing skin lesions that often extrude small, dark filaments, and a sudden loss of velocity, rendering your movement-free fastball extremely hittable.

StillMissOzzie
07-16-2007, 04:56 PM
Juan Agosto
I second (or third) that vote. It seems that he'd piss away a lead EVERY SINGLE TIME he got in. The term "garbage time" was created for him. And I saw someone else post his impressive NL stats and just shake my head...why was he nowhere near that when he was here?

Koch, Koch, Koch

The conversation begins and ends there.

You are too young to remember Juan Disgusto, grasshopper.

I also discount the cup of coffee appearance by Bread & Water. A 1/3 inning appearance does not a lifetime of suckage make.

SMO
:gulp:

Lip Man 1
07-16-2007, 05:00 PM
If 'Bullett' Bob James sucked, then I wish the Sox had five more like him:

1985...69 games, 110 innings pitched, 88 strike outs, 32 saves, 8 wins and a 2.13 ERA.

Yea that sucked alright...:rolleyes:

He was never the same after the knee injury because he couldn't push off but when he was right in 1985, he blew hitters away.

And all Salome Barjos did in his first two Sox seasons (82 - 83) was save 33 games, win 9 with a worst ERA of 3.54.

I guess some folks have a strange definition of 'bad.'

Lip

soxinem1
07-16-2007, 05:10 PM
I don't get all the Masset love. The guy has been awful this year....god awful. Why would you give the ball to him to start? Because of the one start he made at Wrigley? The guys numbers are pathetic, plain and simple.

Not only that, look at his minor league numbers. He's given up a lot of runs and hits, and sure didn't win a lot. They said he throws mid-90's but I've never seen him clocked higher that a very straight 90-91.

Before the season began, a lot of posters on this board said he had a BP spot sewn up, but I could never see anything special about him as to why that should be the case. He keeps coming in, nibbling, and getting rocked. Or he might get two outs, then the wheels fall off.

A lot of stock was put into this guy with no foundation, or history, for that matter. Either way, he is better served in the minors right now. The only problem is we would have to replace him with Dick Tidrow or Terry Leach, as it does not seem we have any options that Oz or KW want to explore that are in the organization.

Grobber33
07-16-2007, 05:40 PM
You are too young to remember Juan Disgusto, grasshopper.


[/quote]


But I'm not.....Juan was part of the infamous 'ALIFORNIA JONES & THE BULLPEN OF DOOM' in the mid 80's. Gosh,they were awful! They were worse than this current group because they didn't have anyone as good as Jenks.
That said,I still say the 2000 Cubs pen was the worst of all time(Daniel Garaby,Danny Young,Brian Williams,a washed up Rich Aguliera and a host of other slugs that make Bukvich,Aardsma and Heager look like All Stars).

dickallen15
07-16-2007, 05:46 PM
I'm not comparing his numbers to the other relievers...instead comparing the pitchers. Bukvich, Aardsma, Sisco, Logan, Day, Haeger, etc. do not have the promise that Masset holds as a SP. He's not a bad pitcher; he's struggling out of the pen, but if we were to trade a SP, I would definitely hand the ball to Masset to start.

If we're going to talk terrible relievers, I'm thinking Billy Koch, Mike Jackson, etc. Those guys weren't worth a damn.
Why do people say Masset will be a good starter? Have you seen his minor league numbers as a starter? They were brutal, that's why the Rangers moved him to the bullpen where he finally had some success. The last time he was a full time starter was in 2005 in AA. His ERA was 6.18. People put way too much stock in an emergency start on a 45 degree day with the wind blowing in 25 mph against a team that wasn't scoring much at the time.

TomBradley72
07-16-2007, 06:26 PM
Ray Searage....mid/late 80's....we used to call him Ray Sewage.

IJay22
07-16-2007, 07:00 PM
I'm surprised no one has said the great Mike Bertotti or the amazing Tony Castillo, two lefties that make you :whiner::angry: then later :gulp:to get your mind off how were they still in the major leagues.

TheOldRoman
07-16-2007, 07:12 PM
vizz the fizz
:rolleyes:

He was a very solid reliever. He wasn't even mediocre, let alone bad, let alone the worst ever. Witty nickname, though.

Brian26
07-16-2007, 07:35 PM
Ken Hill in 2000:

1/3 IP, 5 H, 8 R, 6 BB, 0 K

At least he didn't give up a HR.

I still remember that game and him being pulled by Manuel. Hill had a smile on his face and was laughing about it when Jerry pulled him, which I thought was completely inappropriate, especially since the Sox didn't have the division wrapped up by any means.

Brian26
07-16-2007, 07:43 PM
Two from back in the day...

Salome Barojas, Bob James

Barojas was lights-out in '82 and early '83.

Bob James had really good stuff in 1985 as a fireballer closer.

I don't think either guy was as god-awful bad with the Sox as Juan Agosto, even though Agosto somehow managed to stick around the majors a lot longer than either guy.

Brian26
07-16-2007, 07:51 PM
If 'Bullett' Bob James sucked, then I wish the Sox had five more like him:

1985...69 games, 110 innings pitched, 88 strike outs, 32 saves, 8 wins and a 2.13 ERA.

Yea that sucked alright...:rolleyes:

He was never the same after the knee injury because he couldn't push off but when he was right in 1985, he blew hitters away.

And all Salome Barjos did in his first two Sox seasons (82 - 83) was save 33 games, win 9 with a worst ERA of 3.54.

I guess some folks have a strange definition of 'bad.'

Lip

Lip beat me to it! :thumbsup:

I'll throw two names in here that also did well during their time with the Sox in the mid 80s: Dan Spillner and Jerry Don Gleaton. I'm almost positive Spillner was used as the closer in '85, and Gleaton (who the Sox got from the Mariners straight up for Barojas) had a funky delivery and decent success coming out of the bullpen.

oeo
07-16-2007, 08:02 PM
I don't get all the Masset love. The guy has been awful this year....god awful. Why would you give the ball to him to start? Because of the one start he made at Wrigley? The guys numbers are pathetic, plain and simple.

No, because if you've watched him pitch at all, he has the stuff to succeed. He's not like Aardsma and Sisco who throw nothing but fastballs. Masset can be a very solid starting pitcher.

russ99
07-16-2007, 08:06 PM
As for James & Barojas, I think I remember their bad times with the Sox much more than the good, due to the spectacular flameout by both of them. Also, my family didn't have SportsVision (see other thread) so I didn't see much of their good years. :tongue:

I completely remember Juan Disgusto (but I wish I could forget) both for his time with the Sox and with the Astros where he was equally bad.

Masset's really young and raw, so he has a lot of potential for growth. The Sox should acquire a older long man and put Masset in AAA where he belongs. I guess he 's taking over the "learn from experience" slot in the Sox bullpen previously held by McCarthy.

Just that he's stuck with the Sox all season tells a lot of his potential, and the experience he's getting this season will pay off for the Sox in the long run.

santo=dorf
07-16-2007, 08:14 PM
"Stone Cold" Rick White. The guy looked good maybe once, and that was getting a save in Toronto. He then *****ed about it saying that's not how he should be used.

:rwhite:
"What?"

oeo
07-16-2007, 08:41 PM
Not only that, look at his minor league numbers. He's given up a lot of runs and hits, and sure didn't win a lot. They said he throws mid-90's but I've never seen him clocked higher that a very straight 90-91.

He consistently hits 93-94...go watch, he's pitching right now.

Before the season began, a lot of posters on this board said he had a BP spot sewn up, but I could never see anything special about him as to why that should be the case. He keeps coming in, nibbling, and getting rocked. Or he might get two outs, then the wheels fall off.

A lot of stock was put into this guy with no foundation, or history, for that matter. Either way, he is better served in the minors right now. The only problem is we would have to replace him with Dick Tidrow or Terry Leach, as it does not seem we have any options that Oz or KW want to explore that are in the organization.John Danks had 'no foundation, or history' as well.

Why do people say Masset will be a good starter? Have you seen his minor league numbers as a starter? They were brutal, that's why the Rangers moved him to the bullpen where he finally had some success. The last time he was a full time starter was in 2005 in AA. His ERA was 6.18. People put way too much stock in an emergency start on a 45 degree day with the wind blowing in 25 mph against a team that wasn't scoring much at the time.

His minor league numbers were nothing to write home about, but 'brutal?' No.

Again, Danks did not have a good history in the minors either, and don't tell me he doesn't look promising.

BTW, his start at Wrigley does not have a big impact on my opinion of the guy. I've felt he can be a good starter before he made that start...it just solidified that feeling.

IceczMan
07-16-2007, 09:21 PM
All of the "relievers" in the game tonight are vying for the position of being the Worst White Sox Reliever of All-time.


Rick White would have to be my vote until the game ends though, he always reminded me of Popeye's enemy, whose name has escaped me.

Lip Man 1
07-16-2007, 09:25 PM
Bluto was his name, same as the John Belushi character in Animal House.

Lip

GlassSox
07-16-2007, 09:28 PM
The bull pen is at it again! :angry: I don't have the words to express how bad this is.

Chicken Dinner
07-16-2007, 09:50 PM
No, because if you've watched him pitch at all, he has the stuff to succeed. He's not like Aardsma and Sisco who throw nothing but fastballs. Masset can be a very solid starting pitcher.

The guy blows!

soxfanreggie
07-16-2007, 09:55 PM
Man...I didn't know that about Koch and his family. I know how it is to have a family member that has an illness that takes years to diagnose.

Rick White and Mike Jackson..I can remember visiting my mom in the hospital and turning the Sox on. The Dr. was surprised when I went "@#$%, not that guy!" when I saw Rick White coming into the game. Even my mom, who has attended probably 100+ Sox games but doesn't always remember some of the newer players commented on how bad he was.

dickallen15
07-16-2007, 10:14 PM
No, because if you've watched him pitch at all, he has the stuff to succeed. He's not like Aardsma and Sisco who throw nothing but fastballs. Masset can be a very solid starting pitcher.

I'm sure glad you're not employed as a White Sox scout.

dickallen15
07-16-2007, 10:18 PM
He consistently hits 93-94...go watch, he's pitching right now.

John Danks had 'no foundation, or history' as well.



His minor league numbers were nothing to write home about, but 'brutal?' No.

Again, Danks did not have a good history in the minors either, and don't tell me he doesn't look promising.

BTW, his start at Wrigley does not have a big impact on my opinion of the guy. I've felt he can be a good starter before he made that start...it just solidified that feeling.
What I also find funny is how many people said McCarthy sucks, yet Danks gives up homers at about the same rate McCarthy did last year, gives up more hits and walks per inning than McCarthy did last season, and strikes out fewer hitters. Yet he's going to be a star and McCarthy sucks.

chisoxmike
07-16-2007, 10:24 PM
The Sox have had years and years of bad relievers.

Rick White
Mike Jackson

are my worst.

tacosalbarojas
07-16-2007, 10:34 PM
The guy blows!Per the postgame, Masset just got sent to AAA...corresponding move to come tomorrow.

slavko
07-16-2007, 10:35 PM
Nothing wrong with Bob James that Jenny Craig couldn't fix. The guy was fine until he ate himself out of a career.

TommyJohn
07-16-2007, 10:54 PM
I remember Mike Stanton in 1985 blowing an easy save against BAL. Nobody on, two out, ninth inning. Bob James blows out his knee with two strikes, then Stanton comes in, gives up a line drive hit on his first pitch, and blows the game after an opposite field HR by Fred Lynn...... Ugh!



Stanny gets my vote. I remember that game well. As if that wasn't enough,
Stans gave an encore performance in Yankee Stadium a few weeks later.

The Sox were winning 5-3 in the top of the 10th (it was the game where
Fisk tagged out the two runners in one play) and Gleaton, a lefty, was in.
A Yankee hitter got on base to bring up Dave Winfield. LaRussa the Genius
just HAD to have a righthander, so he brought in Stansoboy, who got two
strikes on Winfield before Stansarama floated a beach ball right over the
plate. Winfield crushed a no-doubter to tie the game.

Somehow, Stanbyyourman managed to stike out the next hitter. In the top
of the 11th, the Sox took a 6-5 lead on a hustling, heads-up play by Ozzie
Guillen. A new pitcher replaced Stanboy and got the Yanks out to earn the
victory. He was...Juan Agosto.

And another nightmare from bullpens past...for those of us who remember
the 1984 defending AL West champs, I give you......RON REED.
That guy was absolutely Buh. Ru. Tal. It seemed like every time LaRussa
the Genius brought Reed in he coughed up the lead, gave up a game-
winning hit, or just flat out sucked big, fat, sharp, hairy rocks. I just looked
up his stats for that year, he was 0-6 with 12 saves and a 3.08 ERA. I'm
shocked the ERA was that low.

BadBobbyJenks
07-16-2007, 11:01 PM
I'll second that Billy Koch debacle. Not only did he suck, he got paid beu coup bucks to suck!:angry:



And I loved Keith Foulke

Parrothead
07-16-2007, 11:01 PM
Dick Tidrow :angry: was not that great for us in 83 but on this team he would be an ace.

rowand33
07-16-2007, 11:45 PM
vizz the fizz

I would KILL for Vizcaino back. Was Vizcaino a stud reliever?

No. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

But he was an adequate guy to throw out there in the 6th or 7th inning. And even more importantly than that, he's the type of guy that will go out there and throw multiple innings for you if your starter bows out early, regardless of whether he has his good stuff or not.

Very underappreciated in 05 by all of us (myself included).

He's not a late innings guy, but I think most clubs would take Vizcaino for the back of their bullpen.

The Immigrant
07-16-2007, 11:59 PM
Jose Paniagua and Rick White. Jeff Nelson gets an honorable mention.

FielderJones
07-17-2007, 12:08 AM
And all Salome Barojas did in his first two Sox seasons (82 - 83) was save 33 games, win 9 with a worst ERA of 3.54.

I guess some folks have a strange definition of 'bad.'

Three words: Inherited Runners Scored. ERA doesn't measure that. Barojas was the pitcher that taught me ERA is a meaningless stat for relievers. 9 wins, BFD. Just shows how sucky he was with a lead.

Jurr
07-17-2007, 10:24 AM
Mike "Grand Slam" Jackson was a Sox fan's red flag. You knew that our beloved manager had given up when Mikey toed the rubber.

Wsoxmike59
07-17-2007, 10:56 AM
And another nightmare from bullpens past...for those of us who remember
the 1984 defending AL West champs, I give you......RON REED.
That guy was absolutely Buh. Ru. Tal. It seemed like every time LaRussa
the Genius brought Reed in he coughed up the lead, gave up a game-
winning hit, or just flat out sucked big, fat, sharp, hairy rocks. I just looked
up his stats for that year, he was 0-6 with 12 saves and a 3.08 ERA. I'm
shocked the ERA was that low.

What made the Ron Reed move even worse, was us giving up Dennis Lamp for nothing to the Blue Jays. All's he did was go 11-0 that year for Toronto and keep the Jays nipping at the heels of the Det Tigers all summer.

The Ron Reed move really crippled the Sox chances for the Divsion in 1984.

To be fair, I won't put it ALL on Ron Reed. Hoyt, Dotson, Bannister and Burns all slumped badly too in '84.

stacksedwards
07-17-2007, 11:01 AM
Ravishing Rick White.

Lip Man 1
07-17-2007, 11:14 AM
White Sox 59:

I think Lamp signed with Toronto as a free agent after the 83 season. I could be wrong thought.

Fielder:

I can't speak for you, but right now I'd take Barojas with all his 'faults' in a heartbeat over the stiffs in the bullpen right now (and so would you...) He was not the 'worst' Sox relief pitcher ever, not by a long shot.

You want bad?

Check out some of the numbers of the guys in 69 and 70 out of the pen.

Lip

oldcomiskey
07-18-2007, 11:02 AM
Bob James for one season was a good closer for us. I remember Paul Assenmacher being terrible for us but pretty much a good pitcher overall with anybody else. Billy Koch was highly touted on this board as a traditional closer even though we had Keith Foulke, and I told them be careful what you wish for. And even Foulke had his problems in Minnesota.I really did think Marquez was gonna be somethign special with that funky delivery of his.Another not so good pitcher shared the same birthday as me.Anybody remember Jerry Crider.

oldcomiskey
07-18-2007, 11:11 AM
I wouldnt say we got nothing for Lamp unless you consider nothing to be Tom Seaver

RadioheadRocks
07-18-2007, 10:18 PM
With all the mentions of Bob James I'm literally stunned that only two others here who remember the summer of '85 have mentioned MIKE STANTON. Talk about a bullpen guy prone to snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Perhaps this will refresh some memories... game vs. the Orioles, Bob James (in with two outs in the 9th and a 6-3 Sox lead) leaves the game with a knee injury that pretty much derailed his season, then along comes Stanton, along come baserunners, along comes game-ending gopher ball... :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:


Lip explains the ninth inning of that game in great detail in the opening post of this thread: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=90152

RadioheadRocks
07-18-2007, 10:53 PM
Ray Searage....mid/late 80's....we used to call him Ray Sewage.


I think you mean RAW SEWAGE. :D:

RadioheadRocks
07-18-2007, 11:03 PM
Stanny gets my vote. I remember that game well. As if that wasn't enough,
Stans gave an encore performance in Yankee Stadium a few weeks later.

The Sox were winning 5-3 in the top of the 10th (it was the game where
Fisk tagged out the two runners in one play) and Gleaton, a lefty, was in.
A Yankee hitter got on base to bring up Dave Winfield. LaRussa the Genius
just HAD to have a righthander, so he brought in Stansoboy, who got two
strikes on Winfield before Stansarama floated a beach ball right over the
plate. Winfield crushed a no-doubter to tie the game.

Somehow, Stanbyyourman managed to stike out the next hitter. In the top
of the 11th, the Sox took a 6-5 lead on a hustling, heads-up play by Ozzie
Guillen. A new pitcher replaced Stanboy and got the Yanks out to earn the
victory. He was...Juan Agosto.


Yep, I remember that as well. Actually a rarely used rule (taking a victory away from a pitcher who was "brief and ineffective") provided Agosto with the victory (which otherwise would have gone to Stanton since he somehow managed to get that last out in the 10th). If you have a copy of Mike Kiley's book HOME AND AWAY: THE 1985 WHITE SOX SEASON (long out of print and hard to come by nowadays) he talks about this.

Britt Burns
07-18-2007, 11:51 PM
What made the Ron Reed move even worse, was us giving up Dennis Lamp for nothing to the Blue Jays. All's he did was go 11-0 that year for Toronto and keep the Jays nipping at the heels of the Det Tigers all summer.

The Ron Reed move really crippled the Sox chances for the Divsion in 1984.

To be fair, I won't put it ALL on Ron Reed. Hoyt, Dotson, Bannister and Burns all slumped badly too in '84.

Burns was going to be the closer that year, a terrible move by LaRussa, maybe his worst in his career with the Sox. Burns was ineffective and then got hurt, which threw a lot of pressure on the ancient Reed to be the closer when he was supposed to be a middleman.

NoNeckEra
07-19-2007, 10:06 AM
I can't speak for you, but right now I'd take Barojas with all his 'faults' in a heartbeat over the stiffs in the bullpen right now (and so would you...) He was not the 'worst' Sox relief pitcher ever, not by a long shot.


The problem with Barojas and Juan Agasto(aka Disgusto), was Tony LaRussa would trot them out game after game after game regardless of their previous failings.
It got to the point where it wasn't their fault, it was Tony's for his unfailing loyalty to them. My Cardinal fan friends say he does the same thing there and is outstaying his welcome.

soxinem1
07-20-2007, 11:20 AM
What made the Ron Reed move even worse, was us giving up Dennis Lamp for nothing to the Blue Jays. All's he did was go 11-0 that year for Toronto and keep the Jays nipping at the heels of the Det Tigers all summer.

The Ron Reed move really crippled the Sox chances for the Divsion in 1984.

To be fair, I won't put it ALL on Ron Reed. Hoyt, Dotson, Bannister and Burns all slumped badly too in '84.

Lamp signed with TOR as a free agent. He did not like playing here, didn't like LaRussa, and couldn't wait to leave. Reed came from PHI for a player to be named, who ended up being Jerry Koosman.

The Sox thought they were loaded in 1984, so Britt Burns started the year in relief, and did well. He saved three games early in the year and had about a 2.00 ERA when he moved in the rotation the first time.

Dotson had a scorching first half, and Hoyt wasn't bad. Bannister did pitch BP all year, I still don't know how he won 14 games that year. Offensively, that team struggled all year, beginning with Fisk's Opening Day injury, they never hit stride. They hit a lot of solo HR's, and set a team record for PH HR's, but that was it.

Much like 2007, that collapse was a total team effort.

Also, the Tigers jumped out to a 35-5 start in 1984, and never looked back. The Jays tried to stay close, but ended 15 GB. That race was never close after the first couple weeks of the season.

Risk
07-20-2007, 12:18 PM
Does Jamie Navarro count?

I know that he was a starter who lost his job and came in as a reliever in either 98' or 99' after his usual craptacular performances.

I still say, hands down, that Navarro was the worst pitcher, starter or reliever, that the Sox have ever had.

Risk

Phil Bradley
07-20-2007, 05:46 PM
You guys all realize Billy Koch had some sort of rare disease while he played here right? His whole family was infected by it. I think might still be affected by it to this day.
http://www.ktvu.com/news/9264350/detail.html

His whole family also sufferes from the inability to throw strikes? Who knew it was hereditary?

MarySwiss
07-20-2007, 06:53 PM
His whole family also sufferes from the inability to throw strikes? Who knew it was hereditary?

Click on the link in his post. Billy Koch really does have a rare disease.