PDA

View Full Version : Did the '05 season ruin our staff?


Jurr
07-15-2007, 11:30 AM
I was thinking about our bullpen after the game last night, and I was wondering what exactly went wrong. I mean, come on! Our 'pen was bananas that year ('05), as was the rotation.

Then - an epiphany.

1. Freddy - lost a ton of velocity last year, though he won 17 games because he's "a gamer". He's been hurt off and on this year.

2.Garland - has lost a little velocity, and is always complaining about a "knot" in his shoulder.

3. Buehrle - terrible last year, and he is known to have a rubber arm. He has finally turned it around.

4. Cotts - absolutely fell off the board last year.

5. Politte - bye, bye career.

6. Hermanson - see Cliff Politte.

7. Jenks - where has that triple digit fastball gone?

8. Contreras - he's getting old, but the days of 95 mph fastballs are over.

We're talking about 8 pitchers that were dominant in 2005 that have either lost velocity, their stuff, or have been injured. It's baffling. Is it just a coincidence? I mean, to win a WS, a million things have to fall into place. Players have to have career years on a few different fronts to pull it off. However, when I see 8 pitchers who have encountered problems since that year, it makes you wonder. Did they stretch themselves out a little too much to win it all that year? Were they overused? It's pretty interesting.

kjhanson
07-15-2007, 11:49 AM
What the hell is wrong with you!?

We should have quit after the Boston series to save the arms for 2007.

SOXfnNlansing
07-15-2007, 12:14 PM
I think all the injuries are coincidences. This thread made me think a bit, but I think about all the extra pitching the Braves had for all those years and I can't remember any problems they had.

I remember Parque and Sorika going bad after 2000. Bere was never the same after 94. All those guys from the 90's went bad. I think it's just luck when guys stay healthy.

Lip Man 1
07-15-2007, 12:28 PM
Jurr:

It certainly took something out of them but consider this....

the Braves made the post season, what 14 years in a row?, with basically the same guys starting.....the Yankees have made the post season every year since 1995...the Cardinals, Red Sox and Indians had stretches where they made the post season in consecutive seasons or had stretches where they went like 3 of 5 years in a row.

The added workout didn't seem to bother those guys did it?

Lip

DumpJerry
07-15-2007, 12:35 PM
I was thinking about our bullpen after the game last night, and I was wondering what exactly went wrong. I mean, come on! Our 'pen was bananas that year ('05), as was the rotation.

Then - an epiphany.

1. Freddy - lost a ton of velocity last year, though he won 17 games because he's "a gamer". He's been hurt off and on this year.

2.Garland - has lost a little velocity, and is always complaining about a "knot" in his shoulder. Still managed to win 18 games in 2006.

3. Buehrle - terrible last year, and he is known to have a rubber arm. He has finally turned it around. No worries here.

4. Cotts - absolutely fell off the board last year.

5. Politte - bye, bye career.

6. Hermanson - see Cliff Politte. Because of bad back, not used much in the second half of 2005 thanks to the emergence of Bobby Jenks.

7. Jenks - where has that triple digit fastball gone? Yet is somehow one of the save leaders in the AL on a team that does not win much.

8. Contreras - he's getting old, but the days of 95 mph fastballs are over.

We're talking about 8 pitchers that were dominant in 2005 that have either lost velocity, their stuff, or have been injured. It's baffling. Is it just a coincidence? I mean, to win a WS, a million things have to fall into place. Players have to have career years on a few different fronts to pull it off. However, when I see 8 pitchers who have encountered problems since that year, it makes you wonder. Did they stretch themselves out a little too much to win it all that year? Were they overused? It's pretty interesting.
Inserted the stuff you left out.

I wish we had not won the World Series in 2005. I was telling everyone in October '05 that this will ruin us after the All Star Break in 2006.

Brian26
07-15-2007, 12:49 PM
The bullpen guys hardly even pitched in the playoffs in '05, so any correlation between a longer season and their dropoff in performance is rubbish. The starters, on the otherhand, are a different story.

As for the problems with Politte, Cotts, Hermy....I think it's a combination of bad luck and the fact that '05 was a collective career year.

balke
07-15-2007, 12:54 PM
They should've all worn tinfoil on the inside of their hats during the that long stretch of a season. I blame Guillen for not getting the message out.

soxinem1
07-15-2007, 01:31 PM
Hermanson and Pollitte were journeymen, 2005 was a career year for both.

Buerhle has had better seasons than his 2005, and actually had a very slow stretch during the Indians climb.

Garland was never what you would condider a hard thrower.

Holding a 100+ fastball for three seasons, unless you are Nolan Ryan, is practically unheard of.

Cotts had a career year, as he pitched BP for most of 2003 and 2004 (and now 2006, 2007).

Contreras is the only one I might buy into on, but that is common when you have a 45 year old pitcher anchoring your staff.

Injuries are part of the game, and pitchers as a whole just do not have the career long effectiveness or durability they did at one time.

However, if you would rather trade the 2005 World Series Championship for extended careers for these guys, I think you will find a lot of opposition here, and that includes me.

jabrch
07-15-2007, 02:10 PM
The 2005 season ruined some of our fans.

thomas35forever
07-15-2007, 02:15 PM
:threadsucks

Bill Naharodny
07-15-2007, 02:29 PM
The 2005 season ruined some of our fans.

My God. The guy didn't say he wishes we wouldn't have won in 2005. He just raised an issue, and provided some material to analyze the issue.

SOXandILLINI
07-15-2007, 02:32 PM
The 2005 season ruined some of our fans.

Yes, indeed it has, and one could argue, it's fans like the kool aid drinkers, not the ones who are mad as hell, but, I guess that's what makes life interesting.

MarySwiss
07-15-2007, 03:00 PM
Like all of us, I am totally hating this season, but somehow I think I would be hating it a lot more if 2005 hadn't happened.

Naturally, it would have been incredible if they could have put together another season like 2005 last year (or this year), but what were the chances? 2005 was magical. :smile:

thomas35forever
07-15-2007, 03:03 PM
Like all of us, I am totally hating this season, but somehow I think I would be hating it a lot more if 2005 hadn't happened.

Naturally, it would have been incredible if they could have put together another season like 2005 last year (or this year), but what were the chances? 2005 was magical. :smile:
Thank you! Let's give this lady a standing O for that post!http://teachline.ls.huji.ac.il/72682/tutorials/behappy/smiley_applause.png

TDog
07-15-2007, 03:05 PM
Forget for a moment that going into the 2005 season, the consensus around here was that fans would trade a World Series championship for a few losing seasons. There were threads in which that question was discussed. I wouldn't have made the trade, as I recall, but now I think the World Series was worth it.

The pitching was the key reason the Sox did so well in 2005. The Bullpen wasn't overused in the postseason. Cotts and Politte had great years. If the Sox had missed the postseason and they gad gone to free agency and given bigger bucks by another team, I'm sure they would have been disappointing in 2006.

Rick White had an ERA under 1 in 20 games of middle relief for the Cardinals in 2002, and analysts thought he was a great signing for the White Sox in 2003. The Sox released him in August. Conversely, Sox fans wanted to get rid of Damaso Marte because he pitched so badly in 2005, Now a lot of fans would love to have him back. Fans were excited to get Luis Vizcaino before the 2005 season but complained bitterly about him during the season. Sox fans had high hopes for Antonio Ozuna, and I'm sure Pirates fans had high hopes for Sean Lowe.

When you build a team, you pay players for what they have done in the past. Unfortunately, players don't always do what they have done in the past, sometimes for reasons that have nothing to do with age or injury. Relievers often fall into that category. Starters are generally more consistent than relievers, so you don't trade starters for relievers. You are better off converting starters to relievers. Most mediocre starters would be good middle relievers. Brandon McCarthy should have been able to succeed as a middle reliever. His failure more likely reflected an attitude problem ("I'm a starter, not a reliever") than his inability to pitch in relief.

Your best bet is developing your own pitching, using young starter-quality pitchers and aging veterans in relief. I wouldn't have signed high-priced free-agent relievers in the off-season in large part because signing almost any reliever to a long-term contract is a mistake. It sounds like you're going cheap, but it is just as difficult to build a bullpen with expensive free agents.

Patrick134
07-15-2007, 03:12 PM
If the premise of this thread is that playing in the postseason put too much wear and tear on the pitchers' arms, then the 2007 Sox appear to be taking away that concern for you.

chaerulez
07-15-2007, 03:16 PM
It's obvious Cotts and Cliff had career years and that they aren't really shut down bullpen guys. Contreras also had a good first half of 2006 and I think a combination of age and overall he hasn't been more than an average pitcher in his career, I don't think it's fair to really say he's anything more than a #3 or #4 starter in the league. Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz pitched a ton of playoff games when the Braves kept making it, and they don't seem to have any issues with it.

WhiteSox5187
07-15-2007, 04:41 PM
Really the only guy who 2005 appeared to have any LASTING impact on is Freddy. He went from being a flamethrower to a junkball pitcher and never really recovered. As for Cotts, Politte, and Hermy, well Hermy went out because of injury, Cotts and Politte had career years. The extra innings have had seemingly no impact on Garland. Jenks was still whipping that triple digit fastball up there last year, this year, not so much. But as I said in another post, that happens to closers a lot. Their velocity will just disappear for a year or two. The extra innings had an obvious impact on Buerhle in the second half of last year, but it's obvious from this year taht the impact of those innings are now gone. As for Jose, ya know, it's hard to be a good pitcher when you're about sixty-eight. So his drop off is expected.

MarySwiss
07-15-2007, 05:00 PM
Thank you! Let's give this lady a standing O for that post!http://teachline.ls.huji.ac.il/72682/tutorials/behappy/smiley_applause.png

:redface: Awww, shucks!

PatK
07-16-2007, 10:19 AM
If postseason runs ruin a pitching staff, someone needs to tell that to Detroit.