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View Full Version : *Official* That Was...BAAAD!!! 7/14/2007 Postgame Thread


MCHSoxFan
07-14-2007, 09:51 PM
AWFULLl!!

I HAVE A BAD NIGHT AND THEN THIS???? MAN!!!!

BYE BYE!!!!

NOW: :angry::angry::angry:

Viva Medias B's
07-14-2007, 09:52 PM
What new?

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-14-2007, 09:52 PM
...

chisoxmike
07-14-2007, 09:53 PM
Wow.

Everything that can go wrong, does.

This team sucks. **** 'em.

thomas35forever
07-14-2007, 09:53 PM
Dear 2007 bullpen,

On behalf of White Sox fans everywhere, I would just like to say thanks for nothing.

Sincerely,

thomas35forever

esbrechtel
07-14-2007, 09:53 PM
Josh Fields is a sorry excuse for a 3rd Baseman.....he needs to be a DH if he wants to play Major League baseball:angry:

Jurr
07-14-2007, 09:53 PM
At least we know what needs to be addressed in the offseason. Jeezus. This team will tear the heart right out of you, and that's crazy to say when you already know the season is over.

ThomesHomie
07-14-2007, 09:53 PM
Kenny still thinks we are in the running, yet we do nothing about our bull pen

CLR01
07-14-2007, 09:53 PM
000ribe!!!!!!!!

soxfanatlanta
07-14-2007, 09:54 PM
2+ hours of my life wasted...again


The song remains the same.

jabrch
07-14-2007, 09:54 PM
Kenny still thinks we are in the running, yet we do nothing about our bull pen

I highly doubt Kenny thinks we are in the running for anything this year.

chisoxmike
07-14-2007, 09:54 PM
This team will tear the heart right out of you, and that's crazy to say when you already know the season is over.

That's the most amazing part. I know they're done and out. But man, I get torn up, still, watching this team.

Jurr
07-14-2007, 09:54 PM
000ribe!!!!!!!!
Yup, he was the reason the Sox lost tonight. :rolleyes:

kidmccarthy
07-14-2007, 09:54 PM
This team is OVAH! I've come to a realization here. Bobby Jenks with a 93 mile an hour fastball is just an average closer. I think we should trade him before he loses even more velocity. Anyway, hopefully Kenny starts the fire sale immediately.

JB98
07-14-2007, 09:55 PM
Another in a long line of demoralizing losses.

You would think I would get used to this pain, but the continued losing just hurts so bad. :(:

thomas35forever
07-14-2007, 09:55 PM
Josh Fields is a sorry excuse for a 3rd Baseman.....he needs to be a DH if he wants to play Major League baseball:angry:
Exactly. Whoever taught him how to field should be embarrassed they have a job, if they still do.

veeter
07-14-2007, 09:55 PM
I walk Markakis there, and pitch to Millar. Anyway, Josh will work hard to become very good, but Crede makes that play in his sleep. Go Brewers.

ThomesHomie
07-14-2007, 09:55 PM
I highly doubt Kenny thinks we are in the running for anything this year.

He said it a week before the all star break

MCHSoxFan
07-14-2007, 09:55 PM
Josh Fields is a sorry excuse for a 3rd Baseman.....he needs to be a DH if he wants to play Major League baseball:angry:

I know, for real. I was just thinking, beofre the game ended, that if Fields made that play, WE would have WON. However, INSTEAD, he PUSHES the BALL AWAY!!!!! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

getonbckthr
07-14-2007, 09:56 PM
God I hope KW doesn't spend 20 million on 3 bullpen arms this winter, unfortunately after watching this season he might make that mistake.

Jurr
07-14-2007, 09:56 PM
He said it a week before the all star break
Um, when you have to keep asses in seats, you can't say it's over. Not with a 100m payroll.

chisoxmike
07-14-2007, 09:57 PM
Josh Fields is a sorry excuse for a 3rd Baseman.....he needs to be a DH if he wants to play Major League baseball:angry:

Exactly. Whoever taught him how to field should be embarrassed they have a job, if they still do.

I know, for real. I was just thinking, beofre the game ended, that if Fields made that play, WE would have WON. However, INSTEAD, he PUSHES the BALL AWAY!!!!! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

:rolleyes:

How long has he been the starting 3rd basemen. A month and a half? Crede had the same problems for a long time at third.

Bucky F. Dent
07-14-2007, 09:57 PM
Well, the next two weeks should be interesting.

Time to deal some vets and play the kids.

getonbckthr
07-14-2007, 09:57 PM
Yup, he was the reason the Sox lost tonight. :rolleyes:
He sure didn't help.

soxfanatlanta
07-14-2007, 09:58 PM
Anybody else get the feeling that Dye is hurting bad? His defense is just awful; the throw to 3rd in the 10 wasn't even close to the bag.

Huisj
07-14-2007, 09:58 PM
God I hope KW doesn't spend 20 million on 3 bullpen arms this winter, unfortunately after watching this season he might make that mistake.

That's what Baltimore did last winter to get Bradford, Baez, and Walker. Hasn't exactly turned them into a great team.

CLR01
07-14-2007, 09:58 PM
Yup, he was the reason the Sox lost tonight. :rolleyes:

He sure did a hell of a lot to help. :rolleyes:

veeter
07-14-2007, 09:58 PM
This team is OVAH! I've come to a realization here. Bobby Jenks with a 93 mile an hour fastball is just an average closer. I think we should trade him before he loses even more velocity. Anyway, hopefully Kenny starts the fire sale immediately.It's amazing how bad of a closer Bobby becomes when his defense can't make a ****ing play. I think we should trade you.

ThomesHomie
07-14-2007, 09:58 PM
Um, when you have to keep asses in seats, you can't say it's over. Not with a 100m payroll.

You lie :redface:

Tragg
07-14-2007, 09:59 PM
Dye got 2 hits. Cintron got 2 hits (although the demand for a utility infielder who makes 1.9 million a year and who can't catch or throw very well is probably not high). Mack got a hit and took a walk. Uribe didn't get a hit, but it's his glove that counts anyway. We need a big outing from Contreras tomorrow.

Give the young players a chance.

Frankfan4life
07-14-2007, 09:59 PM
Today's loss was particularly irritating. Everyone in the league is having a laugh at our expense this year. Sometimes I wonder if this could be bad Karma from having so much fun at the expense of the Jndians and the cubs last year?

Now I will try and forget I watched this game.

getonbckthr
07-14-2007, 10:01 PM
Dye got 2 hits. Cintron got 2 hits (although the demand for a utility infielder who makes 1.9 million a year and who can't catch or throw very well is probably not high). Mack got a hit and took a walk. Uribe didn't get a hit, but it's his glove that counts anyway. We need a big outing from Contreras tomorrow.
Ya so we can trade his sorry senior citizen ass outta town.

veeter
07-14-2007, 10:01 PM
:rolleyes:

How long has he been the starting 3rd basemen. A month and a half? Crede had the same problems for a long time at third.Exactly. These reactionary posts after a tough loss are so stupid. We featured a line-up tonite that contained Alex Cintron, Rob Mackowiak, and Juan Uribe. That is the state we're in. Josh Fields is doing just fine.

santo=dorf
07-14-2007, 10:01 PM
I walk Markakis there, and pitch to Millar. Anyway, Josh will work hard to become very good, but Crede makes that play in his sleep. Go Brewers.
Again, someone please prove this.

If Cintron makes that play, Jenks never comes in early. How come nobody is blaming him? A 4 run lead not enough for Vazquez to work with?

kidmccarthy
07-14-2007, 10:01 PM
It's amazing how bad of a closer Bobby becomes when his defense can't make a ****ing play. I think we should trade you.

Oh really, those 93mph meatballs down the heart of the plate had nothing to do with it either. Look, his value is high right now, Im just saying if a fire sale is coming, he is a big chip. He needs to be 95-97 to be truly effective. His curve is lights out, but hitters can key on the fastball.

GlassSox
07-14-2007, 10:02 PM
I know, for real. I was just thinking, beofre the game ended, that if Fields made that play, WE would have WON. However, INSTEAD, he PUSHES the BALL AWAY!!!!! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

Right on MCHSoxFan! How long do we have to watch Fields at 3rd?:angry:

SoxandtheCityTee
07-14-2007, 10:02 PM
That's the most amazing part. I know they're done and out. But man, I get torn up, still, watching this team.

This one hurt. To see flashes of the good -- they get on the board early, that sweet little bunt hit-SB-run scored by Owens -- and then see the bad rear its ugly head yet again -- JD ineffective at the plate when needed, the bullpen -- it's an emotional rollercoaster.

RowanDye
07-14-2007, 10:02 PM
*** was that? :o: Oh yea...it's White Sox baseball.

There is a lot of blame to go around here.

Fields looks lost right now, why try to bunt when you're so slow?

Uribe....what new?

The return of Javy "big inning" Vazquez.

Jenks looks mediocre, gives up 2 runs?!

And *** is up with Dye's defense? Two guys take third on balls that weren't hit deep, and his throws weren't even close.

Ultimately I put a lot of blame on Ozzie, but a lot of times he's having to decide between crap and crap.

If Dye can't throw the ball anymore though, he needs to make a defensive replacement.

Edit: I forgot to mention A.J. The curveball was a bad pitch, but he was the one that called it! He needs to be ready for that, especially with the tieing run on 3rd.

Jurr
07-14-2007, 10:03 PM
Today's loss was particularly irritating. Everyone in the league is having a laugh at our expense this year. Sometimes I wonder if this could be bad Karma from having so much fun at the expense of the Jndians and the cubs last year?

Now I will try and forget I watched this game.
This season is the baseball gods' way of saying, "Hope you enjoyed that world series. We gave you one to remember. Now, we're going to frustrate the piss out of you."

There is nothing worse than a bad bullpen. It kills you, because you know that no matter what happens in the first 7 innings, the other team is still going to be right there. In this series alone, the Sox fell bullpen crapped itself twice. Wow.

esbrechtel
07-14-2007, 10:03 PM
:rolleyes:

How long has he been the starting 3rd basemen. A month and a half? Crede had the same problems for a long time at third.
Crede never had defensive issues...his problems were at the plate....How many Errors does Josh "I cant" Fields have in his month as starting 3B?

chisoxmike
07-14-2007, 10:04 PM
Exactly. These reactionary posts after a tough loss are so stupid. We featured a line-up tonite that contained Alex Cintron, Rob Mackowiak, and Juan Uribe. That is the state we're in. Josh Fields is doing just fine.


We also have a bullpen of Ryan Buckvich, Charlie Haegar, & Dewon Day.:o::o:

We used to have a bullpen that consisted of Andrew Sisco & David Aardsma. :o:

DrCrawdad
07-14-2007, 10:04 PM
On a night where Thornton, Bukvich, Logan and Masset combine to hold the opponent down Jenkins coughs it up. Amazing.

I just wonder how many games the bullpen has actually cost us this season.

:puking:

veeter
07-14-2007, 10:05 PM
Oh really, those 93mph meatballs down the heart of the plate had nothing to do with it either. Look, his value is high right now, Im just saying if a fire sale is coming, he is a big chip. He needs to be 95-97 to be truly effective. His curve is lights out, but hitters can key on the fastball.How many balls were hit hard of Bobby? Why don't we trade everybody when they have a bad game. He's a big chip? So is Johan Santana, should the Twins trade him?

GlassSox
07-14-2007, 10:05 PM
Again, someone please prove this.

If Cintron makes that play, Jenks never comes in early. How come nobody is blaming him? A 4 run lead not enough for Vazquez to work with?

You are so right!

Frankfan4life
07-14-2007, 10:05 PM
Oh really, those 93mph meatballs down the heart of the plate had nothing to do with it either. Look, his value is high right now, Im just saying if a fire sale is coming, he is a big chip. He needs to be 95-97 to be truly effective. His curve is lights out, but hitters can key on the fastball.I totally agree!!! Jenks might get us two good or at least better bullpen arms. But then we'd still need a closer.

ThomesHomie
07-14-2007, 10:05 PM
Um, when you have to keep asses in seats, you can't say it's over. Not with a 100m payroll.

You lie :redface:

Jurr
07-14-2007, 10:05 PM
On a night where Thornton, Bukvich, Logan and Masset combine to hold the opponent down Jenkins coughs it up. Amazing.

I just wonder how many games the bullpen has actually cost us this season.

:puking:
Well, that's a grand total of 15 blown saves. I don't know how many close games that we had tied were also lost. It's befuddling.

TDog
07-14-2007, 10:06 PM
Had Jenks done his job in the ninth, it would have been a great win. The bullpen didn't give up a run in the sixth, seventh and eighth. Normally, an insurance run in the eighth -- especially one manufactured after two out -- would have been enough. Every reliever up to Jenks entered the game in a save situation, and only Buckvich, who hit his only batter, didn't do his job.

If Fields isn't ready yet, it isn't like the Sox had much of a choice in calling him up.

kidmccarthy
07-14-2007, 10:08 PM
How many balls were hit hard of Bobby? Why don't we trade everybody when they have a bad game. He's a big chip? So is Johan Santana, should the Twins trade him?

Bobby has had a rough July. Im just venting. And I love it when you try and demean my baseball knowledge by that stupid Santana line. Nice try.:D:

Tragg
07-14-2007, 10:08 PM
If Cintron makes that play, Jenks never comes in early. How come nobody is blaming him? A 4 run lead not enough for Vazquez to work with?

Good point. Cintron is terrible.

We should be able to score on Oriole pitching; Our O shut down after the 3rd inning, but looking at the lineup we throw out there, I guess I should be happy with 6.

DrCrawdad
07-14-2007, 10:10 PM
Well, that's a grand total of 15 blown saves. I don't know how many close games that we had tied were also lost. It's befuddling.

How many losses does the BP have? I'd bet it's one of the worst in MLB.

I shouldn't be surprised though about tonights loss, it's Ground Hog Day with the '07 Sox.

JB98
07-14-2007, 10:11 PM
On a night where Thornton, Bukvich, Logan and Masset combine to hold the opponent down Jenkins coughs it up. Amazing.

I just wonder how many games the bullpen has actually cost us this season.

:puking:

Well, we have 15 blown saves.

Bobby should have stuck with the fastball to Payton. He tried to trick him with a curve and beat himself. He blew Payton away upstairs two pitches later.

I knew Fields would struggle with the glove. Everyone should just lay off him. This is the perfect time for him to go out there and get experience. He'll be OK with the wood. I hope Joey is hitting him 500 grounders a day.

kitekrazy
07-14-2007, 10:12 PM
It's amazing how bad of a closer Bobby becomes when his defense can't make a ****ing play. I think we should trade you.

Stink spreads. Eventually it had to get to Jenks.

Tragg
07-14-2007, 10:12 PM
Crede never had defensive issues...his problems were at the plate....How many Errors does Josh "I cant" Fields have in his month as starting 3B?

He's a rookie - he's behind Crede defensively, obviously, as he was in the minors; but he's all we got and his D has gotten better (per reports) from what it was a year ago...what do you want, Cintron playing 3rd?

Hopefully Joe comes back, Fields keeps getting better and they're both Sox.

SluggersAway
07-14-2007, 10:12 PM
You just have to laugh.

Hell, you should have been laughing over a month ago. No use getting upset over this prolonged poor display of baseball.

kidmccarthy
07-14-2007, 10:13 PM
On a positive note, that bunt, steal and score from second from Owens might have been the highlight of the season offensively so far for me. Man I sure miss those kinds of innings.

TDog
07-14-2007, 10:13 PM
Crede never had defensive issues...his problems were at the plate....How many Errors does Josh "I cant" Fields have in his month as starting 3B?

Crede worked hard on his defense in the minors. The Sox thought about moving him to left field at one time because he had potential as a hitter, but he had depth-of-field problems that prohibited him from being able to play the outfield. Fields should still be in the minors working on his defense.

A. Cavatica
07-14-2007, 10:14 PM
I shouldn't be surprised though about tonights loss, it's Ground Hog Day with the '07 Sox.

In Groundhog Day, Bill Murray learned from his mistakes, and eventually he got the girl.

This is worse.

Jurr
07-14-2007, 10:15 PM
How many losses does the BP have? I'd bet it's one of the worst in MLB.

I shouldn't be surprised though about tonights loss, it's Ground Hog Day with the '07 Sox.
On the Orioles broadcast, they kept talking about it from the 6th on. I swear to God, they kept saying "all we need is a run here and there to get close." Then they showed the 15 blown saves stat. Terrible.

Frater Perdurabo
07-14-2007, 10:15 PM
If Buckvich doesn't crap the bed and hit the batter, Jenks doesn't have to enter the game in the 8th.

That doesn't absolve Jenks, or Fields for the error, but this bullpen is an abysmal abomination.

I have never, ever seen a White Sox bullpen worse than this one.

JB98
07-14-2007, 10:18 PM
If Buckvich doesn't crap the bed and hit the batter, Jenks doesn't have to enter the game in the 8th.

That doesn't absolve Jenks, or Fields for the error, but this bullpen is an abysmal abomination.

I have never, ever seen a White Sox bullpen worse than this one.

In particular, look at the right-handers who work in long, middle and set-up relief:

Bukvich, Masset, Day, Haeger

Do any of these guys belong on a major-league roster?

JB98
07-14-2007, 10:18 PM
You just have to laugh.

Hell, you should have been laughing over a month ago. No use getting upset over this prolonged poor display of baseball.

There's nothing funny about losing.

Grzegorz
07-14-2007, 10:19 PM
:rolleyes:

How long has he been the starting 3rd basemen. A month and a half? Crede had the same problems for a long time at third.

Exactly, baptism through fire...

Was the wild pitch truly a wild pitch? The radio side makes it sound like the play should have been called a passed ball.

DSpivack
07-14-2007, 10:21 PM
On the Orioles broadcast, they kept talking about it from the 6th on. I swear to God, they kept saying "all we need is a run here and there to get close." Then they showed the 15 blown saves stat. Terrible.

At that point, the stat must've been 14 BS; tonight made it 15. Or is it 16?

DrCrawdad
07-14-2007, 10:21 PM
In Groundhog Day, Bill Murray learned from his mistakes, and eventually he got the girl.

This is worse.

Good point.

kidmccarthy
07-14-2007, 10:21 PM
Exactly, baptism through fire...

Was the wild pitch truly a wild pitch? The radio side makes it sound like the play should have been called a passed ball.

I kinda thought AJ could have blocked it as well. It was a 50/50 call, as
Bobby's hammer was bounced in.

Lip Man 1
07-14-2007, 10:21 PM
Doctor:

This is the 11th game this season where the bullpen had the ball in their hands and the lead in the 7th inning or later and wound up losing the game.

Four games saw the lead lost in the 7th inning. Three games saw the lead lost in the 8th inning and four games saw the lead lost in the 9th inning.

Here's the assessment as I saw it (not official mind you...)

Thornton (7th inning, 4/4)
Jenks (9th inning, 4/10)
Aardsma (9th inning, 4/22)
MacDougal (8th inning, 5/8)
MacDougal (7th inning, 5/18)
Aardsma & Logan (8th inning, 5/19)
Thornton (7th inning, 6/2)
Bukvich (7th inning, 6/19)
Jenks (8th inning, 6/20)
Jenks (9th inning, 7/2)
Jenks (9th inning, 7/14)

Lip

JB98
07-14-2007, 10:22 PM
Exactly, baptism through fire...

Was the wild pitch truly a wild pitch? The radio side makes it sound like the play should have been called a passed ball.

Wild pitch. I've seen AJ block pitches like that before, but the ball bounced in front of the plate.

SoxSpeed22
07-14-2007, 10:31 PM
I for one say, it's about damn time Hawk boiled over.
Make the blowup official already!

Huisj
07-14-2007, 10:32 PM
So who should get traded? Heck, I'm pretty much for trading anyone and starting over around Buehrle and Konerko. Get whatever little thing you can for who ever you can, even if it's just a crap-for-crap change of scenery kind of trade.

Here's my list of who I could see going: (in no particular order)

Iguchi
Dye
Uribe
Mackowiak
Cintron
Thome?
Terrero
Garland
Contrares
Vazquez
Thornton
Jenks!??!? (maybe I'm going insane, but something makes me think his value is as high as it'll be right now . . . and that something is that he just seems average as a closer)
Heck anyone in the freaking bullpen, just cut them. (except maybe keep Boone Logan . . . can't believe I just said that).

Call up Richar, Sweeney, Anderson if he's healthy, let them and Owens and Fields and Andy Gonzalez play every day for the new few months. Call up Floyd, put him and maybe Masset or Haeger in the rotation, and call up some people like Broadway or Russell or even Gio Gonzalez for a bullpen intro the big leagues. They couldn't be worse than the current bullpen, and with the broken up rotation, there should be plenty of chances for them to get in low pressure games.

This team is horsecrap and has been all year. It can be horsecrap with old farts and castoffs, so what's the difference if it's horsecrap with rookies and prospects? At least we'd get a chance to see who is who of the minor leaguers.

I'm sure most people will think I'm off my rocker here, but oh well, I can take that.

SluggersAway
07-14-2007, 10:34 PM
There's nothing funny about losing.

It is humorous because you can see it a mile away and yet people still act surprised and angered.

chisoxmike
07-14-2007, 10:35 PM
It is humorous because you can see it a mile away and yet people still act surprised and angered.

We deserve and expect better.

JB98
07-14-2007, 10:35 PM
So who should get traded? Heck, I'm pretty much for trading anyone and starting over around Buehrle and Konerko. Get whatever little thing you can for who ever you can, even if it's just a crap-for-crap change of scenery kind of trade.

Here's my list of who I could see going: (in no particular order)

Iguchi
Dye
Uribe
Mackowiak
Cintron
Thome?
Terrero
Garland
Contrares
Vazquez
Thornton
Jenks!??!? (maybe I'm going insane, but something makes me think his value is as high as it'll be right now . . . and that something is that he just seems average as a closer)
Heck anyone in the freaking bullpen, just cut them. (except maybe keep Boone Logan . . . can't believe I just said that).

Call up Richar, Sweeney, Anderson if he's healthy, let them and Owens and Fields and Andy Gonzalez play every day for the new few months. Call up Floyd, put him and maybe Masset or Haeger in the rotation, and call up some people like Broadway or Russell or even Gio Gonzalez for a bullpen intro the big leagues. They couldn't be worse than the current bullpen, and with the broken up rotation, there should be plenty of chances for them to get in low pressure games.

This team is horsecrap and has been all year. It can be horsecrap with old farts and castoffs, so what's the difference if it's horsecrap with rookies and prospects? At least we'd get a chance to see who is who of the minor leaguers.

I'm sure most people will think I'm off my rocker here, but oh well, I can take that.

You are off your rocker. Some veterans do need to be expunged in favor of young players, but I think you went a little overboard here.

1) Anderson isn't healthy. Forget about him.
2) Advocating trading 3/5 of the second-best starting rotation in the AL is insane. One will definitely go (Contreras), possibly two, but definitely not three.
3) You can't rush young pitchers to the big leagues just because others have failed. Broadway IS NOT ready. Gio, maybe. I could see that. Russell, probably not ready yet either.

JB98
07-14-2007, 10:36 PM
It is humorous because you can see it a mile away and yet people still act surprised and angered.

I'm not surprised at all. But losing hurts. And I will never accept losing or think losing is OK.

SluggersAway
07-14-2007, 10:36 PM
We deserve and expect better.

I understand that, but at this point it is amusing because nothing is changing and KW keeps talking the same game.

Bill Naharodny
07-14-2007, 10:40 PM
Kenny still thinks we are in the running, yet we do nothing about our bull pen

Power arms, baby! Good job, Kenny Williams!

sox1970
07-14-2007, 10:42 PM
Call up Richar, Sweeney, Anderson if he's healthy, let them and Owens and Fields and Andy Gonzalez play every day for the new few months. Call up Floyd, put him and maybe Masset or Haeger in the rotation, and call up some people like Broadway or Russell or even Gio Gonzalez for a bullpen intro the big leagues. They couldn't be worse than the current bullpen, and with the broken up rotation, there should be plenty of chances for them to get in low pressure games.

If there are two pitchers in the system that should be in the pen right now, I'd go with Gavin Floyd and Jack Egbert. Of course things could change if one or more of the Sox starters get traded. Egbert should really get a shot-- 116 innings, 2.64 ERA, 29 BB, 114 K's.

Haeger- I'm willing to give him more time this year. Coming into a tie game in the 10th isn't exactly the situation he's accustomed to. Jenks takes the blame for this one.

SluggersAway
07-14-2007, 10:43 PM
At this point it is all about experimentation. This team as currently constructed just doesn't have it.

Once I knew Jenks would blow it, I was excited to see Haeger and his stuff. Too bad he didn't have it tonight either.

Bill Naharodny
07-14-2007, 10:43 PM
You are so right!

Hmm . . . could it be because Javy runs his pitch count up nibbling through the first 5 innings? Why, yes -- yes, I think I've seen that turd do that before!

Lip Man 1
07-14-2007, 10:45 PM
Doctor (and others):

One final number of note.

Going back to the start of the 2006 season, the White Sox bullpen has now personally LOST 20 games where they had the lead and the baseball in their hands in the 7th inning or later. TWENTY GAMES (Nine for the 2006 season...)

I don't care what league you're playing in...you give away that many games it destroys team morale and makes it virtually impossible to win a championship.

Lip

Palehose Pete
07-14-2007, 10:48 PM
To all those who think that the trouble that this team and its fans are enduring have some sort of karmic cause because of the '05 WS or how we laughed at other teams when they were down, please keep in mind that is exactly how fans of the North Side team rationalize their team's ****tiness and glorify their suffering. They just substitute farms animals, pets and innocent bystanders as the excuse for why their team just plain sucks.

Our team just isn't able to close the deal this year. They're not playing the complete game of baseball. That's it and that's all. No "curses" or "bad karma" allowed here.

JB98
07-14-2007, 10:50 PM
Some postgame quotes of interest:

"One thing I donít like, every time we use Bobby to get four outs, he gets the one out in the eighth then come back in the ninth and most of the time we fail," Guillen said. "But I felt I had to do it."

"This is the worst blown save Iíve ever had as far as the Ďare you kidding me?í type of hits," Jenks said.

Bill Naharodny
07-14-2007, 10:51 PM
Doctor (and others):

One final number of note.

Going back to the start of the 2006 season, the White Sox bullpen has now personally LOST 20 games where they had the lead and the baseball in their hands in the 7th inning or later. TWENTY GAMES (Nine for the 2006 season...)

I don't care what league you're playing in...you give away that many games it destroys team morale and makes it virtually impossible to win a championship.

Lip

Well, Lip, you see, that's why in the offseason, when you know you have some problems in the bullpen, you trade your key assets -- starting pitchers -- for bullpen help.

No, wait, you trade your key assets -- starting pitchers -- for a new 1, 8 and 9 hitters.

No, wait -- you don't do that either. Instead, you become upset about the market for starting pitching, act like a baby, and trade your expendable starters for younger starters who are unproven but who are "locked up" for the next few years -- you know, the kind of pitchers who might be ready in 2008 or 2009.

(And don't give me any crap about Danks -- he was never supposed to be on this team, and he's a passable 5th starter right now, no matter how good he's going to be.)

As it's been since this all went south, it's on the GM.

SOXandILLINI
07-14-2007, 10:53 PM
It is humorous because you can see it a mile away and yet people still act surprised and angered.

Exactly correct.

Tragg
07-14-2007, 10:53 PM
This team is horsecrap and has been all year. It can be horsecrap with old farts and castoffs, so what's the difference if it's horsecrap with rookies and prospects? At least we'd get a chance to see who is who of the minor leaguers.

A little strong, but I gotta agree about bringing up the real prospects - pitchers and position players.
And hopefully Kenny's working on deals to get Ozzie's hackers off this team, and some young talent on this team.
And then have a sit-down with Ozzie and figure out how they will develop the young talent.

SOXandILLINI
07-14-2007, 10:54 PM
To all those who think that the trouble that this team and its fans are enduring have some sort of karmic cause because of the '05 WS or how we laughed at other teams when they were down, please keep in mind that is exactly how fans of the North Side team rationalize their team's ****tiness and glorify their suffering. They just substitute farms animals, pets and innocent bystanders as the excuse for why their team just plain sucks.

Our team just isn't able to close the deal this year. They're not playing the complete game of baseball. That's it and that's all. No "curses" or "bad karma" allowed here.

Another exactly correct.

Lip Man 1
07-14-2007, 11:13 PM
Bill:

Your comment is both funny and sad at the same time...sad because there is some truth to it.

Kenny's really between a rock and a hard place with the bullpen. I don't know of anyone (just my opinion) who inspires confidence working in relief in the minor leagues and it's pretty obvious that the past two seasons have been a disaster on the major league side.

Right now Bobby (and he's going through a brutal stretch) and maybe Thornton are the only guys who inspire any kind of reliability and or confidence that they are 'probably' going to get the job done.

Like I mentioned with the team morale / unity comment, can he even think about going a third year with garbage in the bullpen? The rest of the position players and starting pitchers might revolt if he does.

There comes a time when the other guys start looking at each other and nodding their heads like 'yea we've got a problem...' I mean it's only human nature to start turning on the guys who can't get the job done.

These guys are in the bigs to win first and to be 'good teammates' second and eventually a line is crossed in this regard.

It may cost Kenny a great deal of money, but like I said what choice does he have? Unless he wants to start trading folks for relief help this off season.

We'll see what he does.

Lip

JB98
07-14-2007, 11:17 PM
Some relief pitchers who are available in free-agency this offseason, with age in parentheses. None really excite me. We may have to rebuild the bullpen via trade.

Closers
Mariano Rivera (38)
Jason Isringhausen (35) - $8MM club option for '08
Bob Wickman (39)
Francisco Cordero (33)
Armando Benitez (35)
Eric Gagne (32)
Todd Jones (40)

Middle relievers
Scott Linebrink (31)
Jorge Julio (29)
Kerry Wood (31)

RowanDye
07-14-2007, 11:23 PM
Well, Lip, you see, that's why in the offseason, when you know you have some problems in the bullpen, you trade your key assets -- starting pitchers -- for bullpen help.

No, wait, you trade your key assets -- starting pitchers -- for a new 1, 8 and 9 hitters.

No, wait -- you don't do that either. Instead, you become upset about the market for starting pitching, act like a baby, and trade your expendable starters for younger starters who are unproven but who are "locked up" for the next few years -- you know, the kind of pitchers who might be ready in 2008 or 2009.

(And don't give me any crap about Danks -- he was never supposed to be on this team, and he's a passable 5th starter right now, no matter how good he's going to be.)

As it's been since this all went south, it's on the GM.

Asset(s)? KW ultimately takes the blame for not building/buying a bullpen, but I don't see how you can trade away Freddy and McCarthy without getting a starter back in return. If you can't get to the 6th or 7th with a lead, then a bullpen doesn't really matter.

Of course you can argue that we should have traded Garcia fora bullpen arm, but who? I don't think you were going to get a guarantee, lights out guy for Freddy Garcia; and unless that guy could also have played LF and batted leadoff I don't think it would have made much of a difference this year anyways.

Ugghh sorry... I can;t even argue anymore. This team just seems like an inbetween nothing full of ageing/injured old-stars (Pods, Dye, Erstad, A.J.), never will be new stars (Owens, Terrero, Gonzalez), and never should be close to a major league roster (Bukvich).

I was being generous by not including more, but that's about 1/3 of our roster right there...complete crap right now.

Bill Naharodny
07-14-2007, 11:26 PM
Bill:

Your comment is both funny and sad at the same time...sad because there is some truth to it.

Kenny's really between a rock and a hard place with the bullpen. I don't know of anyone (just my opinion) who inspires confidence working in relief in the minor leagues and it's pretty obvious that the past two seasons have been a disaster on the major league side.

Right now Bobby (and he's going through a brutal stretch) and maybe Thornton are the only guys who inspire any kind of reliability and or confidence that they are 'probably' going to get the job done.

Like I mentioned with the team morale / unity comment, can he even think about going a third year with garbage in the bullpen? The rest of the position players and starting pitchers might revolt if he does.

There comes a time when the other guys start looking at each other and nodding their heads like 'yea we've got a problem...' I mean it's only human nature to start turning on the guys who can't get the job done.

These guys are in the bigs to win first and to be 'good teammates' second and eventually a line is crossed in this regard.

It may cost Kenny a great deal of money, but like I said what choice does he have? Unless he wants to start trading folks for relief help this off season.

We'll see what he does.

Lip

Lip, I totally agree on the effect that a bad bullpen has on any team's morale: it's devastating.

Just to be clear, I don't blame Ken Williams for counting on Jenks and MacDougal. They had relatively consistent track records. I do blame him for relying on everyone else, Thornton included. Bullpen pitchers are notoriously unpredictable, and Thornton had been terrible for 3 years before Cooper "fixed" him for 5 months. And the rest of these guys -- Aardsma and Sisco, in particular -- were just a flat-out gamble. Sometimes you win those -- Cotts, Politte in 2005 -- but most times you don't.

Ultimately, my problem is the hubris that led Williams to the position he's in today. He became blinded by his absolute conviction that his colleagues were stupid about what they paid for starting pitching, and his resulting actions were tailored to justify his being right -- and not tailored to the immediate needs of his baseball team.

And, in retrospect, he may have even been wrong about the market itself: Ted Lilly, the most criticized signing of the offseason -- is having a great year for himself, albeit in the National League.

I don't know if a person who's so adamant to prove that he's right -- instead of DOING what's proven to be right -- can fix the problems now facing this team.

Williams is a smart guy. I only hope he's not intent on proving it.

jabrch
07-14-2007, 11:26 PM
As it's been since this all went south, it's on the GM.


Bull****

The GM wasn't out there hitting like **** the first half. This team fails to score enough runs to win consistently.

The GM isn't the one getting pounded around the park.

The GM doesn't teach players.

The GM doesn't coach.


There is loads of blame to go around - just as there was loads of credit to go around in 2005. KW deserves a piece of both - but you can't possibly put it all on him - either for us winning or us losing.

JB98
07-14-2007, 11:27 PM
Asset(s)? KW ultimately takes the blame for not building/buying a bullpen, but I don't see how you can trade away Freddy and McCarthy without getting a starter back in return. If you can't get to the 6th or 7th with a lead, then a bullpen doesn't really matter.

Of course you can argue that we should have traded Garcia fora bullpen arm, but who? I don't think you were going to get a guarantee, lights out guy for Freddy Garcia; and unless that guy could also have played LF and batted leadoff I don't think it would have made much of a difference this year anyways.

Ugghh sorry... I can;t even argue anymore. This team just seems like an inbetween nothing full of ageing/injured old-stars (Pods, Dye, Erstad, A.J.), never will be new stars (Owens, Terrero, Gonzalez), and never should be close to a major league roster (Bukvich).

I was being generous by not including more, but that's about 1/3 of our roster right there...complete crap right now.

Lumping AJ in with Pods, Dye and Erstad? :o:

I admit AJ isn't having a great year. Hell, I just dropped him from my fantasy team. But he goes to the post everyday, and that's a lot more than I can say for our "starting" outfield.

Bill Naharodny
07-14-2007, 11:32 PM
Bull****

The GM wasn't out there hitting like **** the first half. This team fails to score enough runs to win consistently.

The GM isn't the one getting pounded around the park.

The GM doesn't teach players.

The GM doesn't coach.


There is loads of blame to go around - just as there was loads of credit to go around in 2005. KW deserves a piece of both - but you can't possibly put it all on him - either for us winning or us losing.

The offense lived and died last year with its 3-6 hitters. They all had absolutely fantastic years. Of that group, Konerko's numbers were the least questionable. Dye's were over his career norms; Crede's were over his career norms; Thome's were the product of a man who was about to turn 37 and was injury-prone. In fact, the Sox offense last year was unbelievable, given the complete lack of production in the 1, 8 and 9 positions. So what does Williams do? Expect those 3-6 guys to put up the same numbers, regardless of how ridiculous they were. How else do you explain bringing back the same lousy leadoff man, same lousy 9 hitter, and signing a walking injury to hit 8th (Erstad)?

Williams put 2008 and 2009 ahead of this year. Hey, maybe he was right to do so. But let's not pretend that he swapped what pitching assets he had to boost this team's offense this year. He didn't. No, in that regard, he sat on his ass and prayed.

chisoxfanatic
07-14-2007, 11:34 PM
At least we know what needs to be addressed in the offseason. Jeezus. This team will tear the heart right out of you, and that's crazy to say when you already know the season is over.

Uhhh...Yea...Just what has to be addressed?

Right field, Center field, Left field, Third base, Shortstop, Second base, one solid bench player (get Cintron the hell off of this team), the entire freaking bullpen

That's about 70% of the team right there!

GlassSox
07-14-2007, 11:35 PM
On a positive note, that bunt, steal and score from second from Owens might have been the highlight of the season offensively so far for me. Man I sure miss those kinds of innings.

Yes that was great and looked like real baseball. I really enjoyed watching that.

DickAllen72
07-14-2007, 11:36 PM
I luv Boone Logan. :gulp:

At least the Brewers won tonight. :bandance:

JB98
07-14-2007, 11:41 PM
The offense lived and died last year with its 3-6 hitters. They all had absolutely fantastic years. Of that group, Konerko's numbers were the least questionable. Dye's were over his career norms; Crede's were over his career norms; Thome's were the product of a man who was about to turn 37 and was injury-prone. In fact, the Sox offense last year was unbelievable, given the complete lack of production in the 1, 8 and 9 positions. So what does Williams do? Expect those 3-6 guys to put up the same numbers, regardless of how ridiculous they were. How else do you explain bringing back the same lousy leadoff man, same lousy 9 hitter, and signing a walking injury to hit 8th (Erstad)?

Williams put 2008 and 2009 ahead of this year. Hey, maybe he was right to do so. But let's not pretend that he swapped what pitching assets he had to boost this team's offense this year. He didn't. No, in that regard, he sat on his ass and prayed.

Maybe 2008 or 2009 will produce a playoff team, in which case KW will be vindicated.

Personally, I was furious with the Garcia deal. We had starting pitching to trade, and we didn't get anything that could help us in 2007.

I figured this would be our last run with this core group, knowing that Dye, Iguchi and Buehrle were coming up contract wise and that Contreras was aging. At the start of the year, I never saw it getting this bad. In retrospect, we rolled the dice with a lot of injury-prone people and unproven arms this season.

In almost every case where the dice got rolled, we lost.

chisoxfanatic
07-14-2007, 11:42 PM
At least the Brewers won tonight. :bandance:
I'm looking forward to going to the Brewers game on Monday.

Noneck
07-14-2007, 11:43 PM
The offense lived and died last year with its 3-6 hitters. They all had absolutely fantastic years. Of that group, Konerko's numbers were the least questionable. Dye's were over his career norms; Crede's were over his career norms; Thome's were the product of a man who was about to turn 37 and was injury-prone. In fact, the Sox offense last year was unbelievable, given the complete lack of production in the 1, 8 and 9 positions. So what does Williams do? Expect those 3-6 guys to put up the same numbers, regardless of how ridiculous they were. How else do you explain bringing back the same lousy leadoff man, same lousy 9 hitter, and signing a walking injury to hit 8th (Erstad)?

Williams put 2008 and 2009 ahead of this year. Hey, maybe he was right to do so. But let's not pretend that he swapped what pitching assets he had to boost this team's offense this year. He didn't. No, in that regard, he sat on his ass and prayed.

What are you saying that some of the 3-6 players should have been traded for a bullpen and 1 and a 9 hitter?

A. Cavatica
07-14-2007, 11:44 PM
I thought Williams had a great offseason the winter after we won the Series. The team got off to a great start...to be undone, eventually, by bad performances from CF, LF, SS, the bullpen, and the manager. The '06 Sox had a big margin for error and would still have made the playoffs if not for the Tigers' magical season.

I thought Williams had a very poor offseason this past winter. He didn't solve a single one of last season's problems, and all have continued to fester. Add a whole new set of problems -- predictable injuries to aging players, poor performances by new acquisitions and rookies who just aren't very good -- and you get the miserable '07 team.

We're not far from last place. Except for Buehrle, there isn't a single veteran I'd want to build around. It's fire sale time.

JB98
07-14-2007, 11:48 PM
I thought Williams had a great offseason the winter after we won the Series. The team got off to a great start...to be undone, eventually, by bad performances from CF, LF, SS, the bullpen, and the manager. The '06 Sox had a big margin for error and would still have made the playoffs if not for the Tigers' magical season.

I thought Williams had a very poor offseason this past winter. He didn't solve a single one of last season's problems, and all have continued to fester. Add a whole new set of problems -- predictable injuries to aging players, poor performances by new acquisitions and rookies who just aren't very good -- and you get the miserable '07 team.

We're not far from last place. Except for Buehrle, there isn't a single veteran I'd want to build around. It's fire sale time.

You really wouldn't hold on to AJ, Konerko, Garland and Jenks?

On one hand, I agree that Buehrle is the only untouchable. But there are others that I would only part with for an outstanding deal. The four above come immediately to mind.

lostfan
07-14-2007, 11:49 PM
Yes that was great and looked like real baseball. I really enjoyed watching that.
I loved it, I was at the game. That's pure baseball. Say what you want about Owens' numbers, call him a question mark as a leadoff hitter, but he's been doing what's been asked of him lately and getting better. I'd like to see him hit more line drives instead of so many infield singles first, though.

Fields shows a lot of promise with the bat and I'm sure his average will rise, but I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt in the field so far. But he's just not doing it, every time I watch him he makes at least one terrible play a game. Not all of them are errors, but they're routine plays he should be making. They're not even "well, Crede could've made that play" (an O's fan turned and asked me "you're really missing Crede aren't you?"). They're more "well, any other major league infielder could've made that play." Even Macowiak and Ozuna. Fielding a routine ground ball down the line and throwing the runner out is not asking a lot.

I'm not blaming him for that loss, though. That was a pretty pathetic 9th all around.

California Sox
07-14-2007, 11:49 PM
Personally, I was furious with the Garcia deal. We had starting pitching to trade, and we didn't get anything that could help us in 2007.

There are a lot of problems with this year's team, the Freddie trade is not one of them. Freddie looked like he was a 100 out there. He was throwing like 85 mph. KW got rid of his $10 million contract; got Gio back; and acquired Floyd, who still has a chance to help. Meanwhile, Freddie was pretty bad for the Phils and ended up hurt.

To say we should have gotten more... that's just greedy.

jabrch
07-14-2007, 11:49 PM
The offense lived and died last year with its 3-6 hitters. They all had absolutely fantastic years. Of that group, Konerko's numbers were the least questionable. Dye's were over his career norms; Crede's were over his career norms; Thome's were the product of a man who was about to turn 37 and was injury-prone. In fact, the Sox offense last year was unbelievable, given the complete lack of production in the 1, 8 and 9 positions. So what does Williams do? Expect those 3-6 guys to put up the same numbers, regardless of how ridiculous they were. How else do you explain bringing back the same lousy leadoff man, same lousy 9 hitter, and signing a walking injury to hit 8th (Erstad)?

There was no reason to expect your entire lineup to hit the way it has. One or two guys have down years - maybe. Dye not repeat? Sure. But there is no viable reason to predict that ALL of Pods, Erstad, Thome, Crede and Pablo would miss as many games as they have and that PK, Iguchi, Dye, AJ and Uribe would all have hit so poorly. One or two of them - sure. But if you are going to predict ALL of that to happen, it would require you to be the most absolutely negative person ever - in the history of humanity. You'd have to have predicted a lot of other teams having similar performances if you believe that the absolute worst possible option would have happened.

Williams put 2008 and 2009 ahead of this year.

Bull****

He spent nearly 100MM this year. We just had a ton of veteran offensive players not live up to their career averages.

But let's not pretend that he swapped what pitching assets he had to boost this team's offense this year. He didn't. No, in that regard, he sat on his ass and prayed.

I'm not sure what you are talking about - but he unloaded Freddy and his 10mm price tag and got something of value for him. Maybe you think he could have gotten more - but I can't figure out how he got what he got for him - much less more. If you are talking about McCarthy, I don't get that either. He got 2 guys he felt were either ready, or one year away, for one guy who we had soured on. Again - if you think there were better deals out there, and KW failed to capitalize on it, then I guess I need to decide who I think is more skilled as a GM, Kenny Williams or "Bill Naharodny". I'm going out on a limb here and assuming Kenny got the most he could, talked to all potential interested parties, managed his budget/salary as best he could, and did what was best for the team.

Yes, he could have gone out and signed 2 veteran FA RP for about 5mm per. That would have meant cutting 10mm in salary somewhere, so I'm not quite sure how that was to work out...but even if it did, veteran RPs are a major risk and they often fail. Look no further than Howry/Eyre on the North side.

I'm thinking that this is another case of a fan who is taking his anger out over another crappy loss, but would be posting very different if we were playing better baseball. To me - this is more completely baseless speculation.

JB98
07-14-2007, 11:53 PM
There are a lot of problems with this year's team, the Freddie trade is not one of them. Freddie looked like he was a 100 out there. He was throwing like 85 mph. KW got rid of his $10 million contract; got Gio back; and acquired Floyd, who still has a chance to help. Meanwhile, Freddie was pretty bad for the Phils and ended up hurt.

To say we should have gotten more... that's just greedy.

It isn't that we should have gotten more. It's that we didn't get anything that could help us in 2007.

A. Cavatica
07-15-2007, 12:00 AM
You really wouldn't hold on to AJ, Konerko, Garland and Jenks?

I really wouldn't.

These are good players, with good trade value, but I don't think they'll still be good when we're ready to contend again. AJ and Konerko seem to have lost their ability to hit, and they're station-to-station baserunners. Garland needs a great infield defense behind him, since he doesn't strike many out. Jenks has lost velocity and blows any save opportunity where he has to get four outs.

These four players are our best trading chips. We need to turn them into eight.

Tragg
07-15-2007, 12:02 AM
Some relief pitchers who are available in free-agency this offseason, with age in parentheses. None really excite me. We may have to rebuild the bullpen via trade.

Closers
Mariano Rivera (38)
Jason Isringhausen (35) - $8MM club option for '08
Bob Wickman (39)
Francisco Cordero (33)
Armando Benitez (35)
Eric Gagne (32)
Todd Jones (40)

Middle relievers
Scott Linebrink (31)
Jorge Julio (29)
Kerry Wood (31)

Your list demonstrates to me that it's tough to fill a pen via trade or FA. Linebrink's going to be signed as a closer, the others are closers or aren't much of anything. Pens usually require some young pitchers (in 2005, we had some former starters in our pen - they were better than the usual suspect of middle reliever).
Frankly, this was the year that Williams tried to trade for a pen by trading for middle relievers and it was a disaster. Sisco, Aardsma, MacDougal, Riske - all traded for in the last year, and all failed (although Mac might be redeemed). The last thing we need to do is trade for more of the above.

Use the young pitchers instead. Floyd should be in the pen now, and we've got several others who would be decent candidates.

A. Cavatica
07-15-2007, 12:05 AM
AJ and Konerko seem to have lost their ability to hit, and they're station-to-station baserunners.

I should add one thing. AJ may have been tolerable in the clubhouse when the team was winning, but I suspect he will be much harder to live with when the team is losing.

lostfan
07-15-2007, 12:06 AM
AJ and Konerko seem to have lost their ability to hit, and they're station-to-station baserunners.
What are you talking about? Konerko's hitting now and has been for a while. He's a career .282 hitter and he's batting .269 right now, and only that low because of the absolutely wretched first 6 weeks he had where he was like 20 or 30 points below the Mendoza line. But yeah he is slow.

A. Cavatica
07-15-2007, 12:06 AM
Floyd should be in the pen now, and we've got several others who would be decent candidates.

Floyd sucks. Let him do all his maturing in Charlotte.

itsnotrequired
07-15-2007, 12:12 AM
I stopped watching halfway through and put on "Chronicles of Riddick". Did you guys know it is the best movie ever?

ChiSoxGirl
07-15-2007, 12:12 AM
Another losing TBGR. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/../rwas/index.php?category=4&id=3433) :(:

A. Cavatica
07-15-2007, 12:13 AM
What are you talking about? Konerko's hitting now and has been for a while. He's a career .282 hitter and he's batting .269 right now, and only that low because of the absolutely wretched first 6 weeks he had where he was like 20 or 30 points below the Mendoza line. But yeah he is slow.

OK, I was a little harsh on Konerko. But I don't think you rebuild around a 1B/DH. $12M, carefully spent, can plug several holes (see Carlos Lee trade for proof).

Brian26
07-15-2007, 12:15 AM
Use the young pitchers instead. Floyd should be in the pen now, and we've got several others who would be decent candidates.


That's an interesting concept. Rongey was talking about it this morning, saying Floyd should continue to pitch regularly as part of the rotation in Charlotte.

lostfan
07-15-2007, 12:16 AM
OK, I was a little harsh on Konerko. But I don't think you rebuild around a 1B/DH. $12M, carefully spent, can plug several holes (see Carlos Lee trade for proof).
His salary is ridiculously high considering his value, you're right about that. But it's kind of hard to replace that kind of right-handed power through trades and FA when you consider our other needs.

Brian26
07-15-2007, 12:18 AM
OK, I was a little harsh on Konerko. But I don't think you rebuild around a 1B/DH. $12M, carefully spent, can plug several holes (see Carlos Lee trade for proof).

The difference then was that when the Sox got rid of CLee and Mags, they still had PK and Carl Everett as steady power hitters. Don't forget the opening day lineup in '05 (Everett #3, PK #4). If you get rid of PK now, knowing Thome's almost done, who the heck do you have left to slide into the 3,4 and 5 spots in the order?

itsnotrequired
07-15-2007, 12:20 AM
The difference then was that when the Sox got rid of CLee and Mags, they still had PK and Carl Everett as steady power hitters. Don't forget the opening day lineup in '05 (Everett #3, PK #4). If you get rid of PK now, knowing Thome's almost done, who the heck do you have left to slide into the 3,4 and 5 spots in the order?

Konerko is the least of the Sox problems. And who is "rebuilding" around Konerko?

Jurr
07-15-2007, 12:21 AM
The difference then was that when the Sox got rid of CLee and Mags, they still had PK and Carl Everett as steady power hitters. Don't forget the opening day lineup in '05 (Everett #3, PK #4). If you get rid of PK now, knowing Thome's almost done, who the heck do you have left to slide into the 3,4 and 5 spots in the order?
With the money you'd save, I'd say you could find SOMEONE.
However, I like Paulie. He's a three tool player, but what are you going to do?

lostfan
07-15-2007, 12:22 AM
Konerko is the least of the Sox problems. And who is "rebuilding" around Konerko?
Well, while the team is built around the rotation (as should be) Konerko is probably the steadiest piece of the offense.

A. Cavatica
07-15-2007, 12:24 AM
His salary is ridiculously high considering his value, you're right about that. But it's kind of hard to replace that kind of right-handed power through trades and FA when you consider our other needs.

It's easier to replace a 1B/DH through a trade or FA than almost anything else. There are always good hitters available who can no longer field their old positions. Who's to say we don't reacquire Konerko, down the road, the way we acquired Thome?

Brian26
07-15-2007, 12:25 AM
Konerko is the least of the Sox problems. And who is "rebuilding" around Konerko?

Maybe I misread what he wrote. I thought Cavatica was trying to prove Konerko is tradeable, just as CLee was tradeable.

I agree CLee was tradeable because we used his salary to plug holes and we still had big bats on the team. I think if you trade PK now like you traded CLee in '04, you might be creating a larger hole than the small ones you plug with the parts you get in return.

Jurr
07-15-2007, 12:27 AM
Well, while the team is built around the rotation (as should be) Konerko is probably the steadiest piece of the offense.
Steady? I don't know about that. He had a monster June to get his numbers back up. However, he's so mental that he suffers from extended slumps. I think he's a good player, but is he great? Nah.

The problem with this roster is that it really needs gutting. I'd like to see a versatile lineup. I honestly think Everett made the Sox more versatile than Thome, because Everett could run and he could lace some singles and doubles. Thome is more of an all or nothing type of hitter. That shift takes away any hope for singles. The switch hitting that Everett provided helped, as well. Oh, and he was a great two strike hitter. However, that's done. He's gone.

This lineup is a plodding, one dimensional offense. It needs retooling. The starting rotation is going to price itself out of utility for the Sox. Contreras has got to go. The bullpen is an abomination.

Yes, folks, this team needs to be "rebuilt", and the only way you can do that is to remove some big contracts. Who goes?

Tragg
07-15-2007, 12:32 AM
Floyd sucks. Let him do all his maturing in Charlotte.
Floyd dominates AAA. He domominated AAA for the Phillies and he's dominated AAA for us.
I sure don't give up after 1 outing (on a day when everyone sucked anyway) but you may be right. He could be a Tuffy Rhodes type.
I'd just as soon find out for sure, one way or the other. I'm confident that he will be no worse than Buckovich or Day.

Jurr
07-15-2007, 12:34 AM
Ha. The Tigers and Indians lost, too. Just saw it. :(:

Brian26
07-15-2007, 12:34 AM
The problem with this roster is that it really needs gutting. I'd like to see a versatile lineup. I honestly think Everett made the Sox more versatile than Thome, because Everett could run and he could lace some singles and doubles. Thome is more of an all or nothing type of hitter. That shift takes away any hope for singles. The switch hitting that Everett provided helped, as well. Oh, and he was a great two strike hitter. However, that's done. He's gone.

Very, very well-thought out post that echoes what I've said all along. People joke about Everett all the time, but nobody seems to recognize how many huge clutch hits he had in '05, and that includes a few in the playoffs. He could bunt, he could go the other way, and he could get a big single to left when it was really needed. I'm not sure Thome could hit the ball the other way if the opposing team took its SS and 3B off the field.

A. Cavatica
07-15-2007, 12:34 AM
Maybe I misread what he wrote. I thought Cavatica was trying to prove Konerko is tradeable, just as CLee was tradeable.

I agree CLee was tradeable because we used his salary to plug holes and we still had big bats on the team. I think if you trade PK now like you traded CLee in '04, you might be creating a larger hole than the small ones you plug with the parts you get in return.

Since PK is not a rent-a-player, we ought to be able to get three players back for him. If some team offers an interesting combination of young players and prospects, I jump on it. Otherwise we'll see PK hit 40 homers a year (and drive in 85) for some teams that win 75.

lostfan
07-15-2007, 12:34 AM
Steady? I don't know about that. He had a monster June to get his numbers back up. However, he's so mental that he suffers from extended slumps. I think he's a good player, but is he great? Nah.

I agree that Konerko is no franchise player and not an offensive juggernaut, but really, who on this offense right now is better? Thome? I think not, great power but one of the most one-dimensional hitters I've seen in a while and while his home runs are great and he walks a lot, his strikeouts kill us. And since Dye is doing terrible right now and Crede is done for the year I actually think I've got nobody left to compare him to. Macowiak? AJ? Pods/Erstad?

Nah man I think Konerko and Thome are all we've got for now.

Tragg
07-15-2007, 12:37 AM
I agree that Konerko is no franchise player and not an offensive juggernaut, but really, who on this offense right now is better?
No one.
Hence, we're last in O in the league.
Konerko's a good hitter, but I don't think any non-pitcher is untouchable.

Brian26
07-15-2007, 12:39 AM
And since Dye is doing terrible right now and Crede is done for the year I actually think I've got nobody left to compare him to. Macowiak? AJ? Pods/Erstad?

Nah man I think Konerko and Thome are all we've got for now.

Man, it's amazing how quickly things can change in baseball. The Sox lineup looked like murderer's row last year at this time. Now you have a season-ending injury, a year long slump, a guy who can't hit lefthanded pitching anymore and has a slow bat, etc...all of a sudden the lineup cant win 75 games.

lostfan
07-15-2007, 12:40 AM
No one.
Hence, we're last in O in the league.
Konerko's a good hitter, but I don't think any non-pitcher is untouchable.
I'm not saying Konerko is untouchable, I'm only saying that if you want to take away our most consistent, proven power hitter then you'd better be sure of what you're doing and be plugging that hole in addition to another.

lostfan
07-15-2007, 12:43 AM
Man, it's amazing how quickly things can change in baseball. The Sox lineup looked like murderer's row last year at this time. Now you have a season-ending injury, a year long slump, a guy who can't hit lefthanded pitching anymore and has a slow bat, etc...all of a sudden the lineup cant win 75 games.
Yeah, and even those people that hated on the Sox will admit they didn't think this was going to happen. There weren't too many 3-4-5s better than Dye-Thome-Konerko (or whatever order, depending on when in the season) and just about everybody knew how good Crede had become. Some dropoff from Dye and maybe Crede was expected, but nobody expected it to fall off THIS far.

Tragg
07-15-2007, 12:45 AM
I'm only saying that if you want to take away our most consistent, proven power hitter then you'd better be sure of what you're doing and be plugging that hole in addition to another.
I agree - he's not that easy to replace and we are short a power hitter right now (or will be in 08). We need 3 outfielders first.

A. Cavatica
07-15-2007, 12:46 AM
I'm not saying Konerko is untouchable, I'm only saying that if you want to take away our most consistent, proven power hitter then you'd better be sure of what you're doing and be plugging that hole in addition to another.

It's simple: you DON'T plug the hole. You continue to build the pitching staff; you acquire young stars/top prospects at catcher, shortstop, second base, and centerfield; you figure out if Fields or Sweeney can play; and you sign some Brian Daubach/Ross Gload type to keep the spot warm.

Then, only after you've put together your new core, you go out and sign your free agent 1B and DH.

Jurr
07-15-2007, 12:46 AM
I agree that Konerko is no franchise player and not an offensive juggernaut, but really, who on this offense right now is better? Thome? I think not, great power but one of the most one-dimensional hitters I've seen in a while and while his home runs are great and he walks a lot, his strikeouts kill us. And since Dye is doing terrible right now and Crede is done for the year I actually think I've got nobody left to compare him to. Macowiak? AJ? Pods/Erstad?

Nah man I think Konerko and Thome are all we've got for now.
If Thome stays on this roster next year, I think we've got problems. People are going to be obstinate and say that he gets on base, he hits homers, etc. However, when he gets on base, he's stuck there. He can't get you a first and third situation on a base hit. He can barely get home on a single when he's on second. One dimensional is right. Now, he would be fine on a team like the Twins, where there are faster guys all over the place. When you have Paulie and Thome in the same lineup, you become focused on station to station ball - period.

I would definitely say that if the Sox are serious about rebuilding the right way, they should get rid of Thome. I'd keep Dye over him in a heartbeat. That's probably not going to happen, but whatever.

Beyond that, something's gotta be done with the bullpen. You can have all the talent in the world, but it doesn't matter if you can't hold anybody. If a team puts up 6 runs, they should win most nights. If a team has a 2 run lead going into the eighth inning, it should be close to a done deal most nights. This team knows that they are in trouble if the game's close, and that's totally disheartening. The pen HAS to be overhauled, or fixing the offense is polishing the brass on the Titanic.

chisoxfanatic
07-15-2007, 12:55 AM
I think we all need bafiarocks03 back. Her cheerleaderish attitude could probably lift at least a few of us up. I wonder where she went???

Jurr
07-15-2007, 12:57 AM
I'm not saying Konerko is untouchable, I'm only saying that if you want to take away our most consistent, proven power hitter then you'd better be sure of what you're doing and be plugging that hole in addition to another.
Well, in '05 we replaced a proven power hitter (Maggs) with a guy that hadn't produced in a long time (Dye). We replaced another (Lee) with a leadoff hitter and some bullpen help. We replaced an all-or-nothing offensive shortstop with a gold glove caliber player (admit it..he was bananas at short in '05). We replaced another power hitter (Frank) with Everett, due to injury.

The '05 Sox lost TONS of power from the previous season. That was the big knock on them going into that year. The emphasis was placed on pitching, defense, and a varied offense. What happens? The Sox gave up defense and offensive variety for Thome. He panned out for a half season, where the Sox were unstoppable. That was over a year ago.

Now, my friends, the Sox are a mess. It's sad. The plodding offense at the beginning of the year held the team back, then the bullpen fell apart. The Sox have lost 15 games that they held a late inning lead in. 15!!!!!!!! Cut that number in half, and the Sox are well in the hunt for the division. They would be around 5 or 6 games back.

Power hitting sells tickets. It also comes with a heavy price tag. Give me some multi-dimensional offensive players that embrace the art of the single and the bunt while putting the savings into the bullpen and rotation. Sox, you played Twins ball one season and won the whole thing. Take note of this when you rebuild the roster.

A. Cavatica
07-15-2007, 12:58 AM
I think we all need bafiarocks03 back. Her cheerleaderish attitude could probably lift at least a few of us up. I wonder where she went???

KW traded her to the Braves for Matlock and a troll to be named later.

lostfan
07-15-2007, 01:04 AM
Well, before when the Sox were dumping power there were still other power hitters on the roster. We get rid of one of those guys and we're hurting. Right now we only have 2, or 1 1/2 depending on how you see it. Maybe Fields will become one eventually, but he isn't yet. Maybe Dye will get over his slump, but he isn't now. Maybe Crede... well you get the picture.

Granted, I don't expect KW to come up with all the answers at once and he'll have to make some bold moves to fill out this roster. If he wants to go all out and really hit the ceiling and be a full-blown contender, he'll have to sacrifice part or all of '08 while he looks for a viable 3 or 4 hitter. And I'm fine with that, I don't want Kenny trying to find a bunch of bashers like we had before, I want a well-rounded, versatile offense.

JB98
07-15-2007, 01:09 AM
I really wouldn't.

These are good players, with good trade value, but I don't think they'll still be good when we're ready to contend again. AJ and Konerko seem to have lost their ability to hit, and they're station-to-station baserunners. Garland needs a great infield defense behind him, since he doesn't strike many out. Jenks has lost velocity and blows any save opportunity where he has to get four outs.

These four players are our best trading chips. We need to turn them into eight.

Konerko hasn't lost his ability to hit. Not in the least. The man has been raking for the last six weeks. He's prone to long slumps, sure. But he's also capable of long hot streaks. Quietly, he's on one now. In fact, his swing is really locked in. He was the only one with a clue against Bedard last night.

That said, Paul is not untouchable. If someone offered KW the moon, the stars and the sun, he'd have to consider it.

I disagree with the notion that we won't be able to retool in time to win another title with Konerko in the middle of the order and AJ behind the plate, etc. We still have well above average starting pitching. That's the hardest commodity in baseball to find. Everyday lineups and bullpens have been retooled in one offseason before. Hell, KW has done it before.

Simply put, I'm not resigned to going on a five-year plan at this stage.

IowaSox1971
07-15-2007, 01:35 AM
Dye, Cintron and Ozzie deserve a lot of blame for this loss.

Didn't Dye hit into a double play with runners on first and second and nobody out in the seventh when we were up by just 5-4? How many times has he killed rallies this season? It's almost like he's upset that he's not being offered a lucrative new contract so he's trying to hurt this team. His defense is awful, as his ineffective throws hurt us during key points of the game.

Cintron, by the way, if he makes that play in the eighth inning, there are two out and nobody on and Jenks probably doesn't have to come in until the ninth.

Ozzie blew it by not having Iguchi in as a defensive replacement in the eighth for Cintron. Everyone can see that Cintron is unable to throw this year, and his fielding has been horrible too.

StillMissOzzie
07-15-2007, 02:05 AM
My brother is in town from Topeka, KS over a 4 day weekend. We saw the first three innings as well as the last two. I explained that he's seen the 2007 White Sox season story in that portion of a game.

SMO
:(::angry::mad:

lostfan
07-15-2007, 02:45 AM
Cintron, by the way, if he makes that play in the eighth inning, there are two out and nobody on and Jenks probably doesn't have to come in until the ninth.

Jenks threw a whopping 2 pitches in the 8th. If you want to narrow it down to one play that ruined the game, blame it on Fields' inability to throw a guy out on a routine ground ball.

SpartanSoxFan
07-15-2007, 03:23 AM
That's the most amazing part. I know they're done and out. But man, I get torn up, still, watching this team.

God bless you. Seriously. At least you know you truly are a fan.

Grzegorz
07-15-2007, 05:06 AM
It's simple: you DON'T plug the hole. You continue to build the pitching staff; you acquire young stars/top prospects at catcher, shortstop, second base, and centerfield; you figure out if Fields or Sweeney can play; and you sign some Brian Daubach/Ross Gload type to keep the spot warm.

Then, only after you've put together your new core, you go out and sign your free agent 1B and DH.

I agree with this blueprint. Championships are won through pitching. With Anderson likely out for the year, it looks as if us fans will have to live with a Owens/Terrero/Sweeney (when he returns) outfield.

I still give Anderson another shot, but at this point the focus has to be on strength up the middle and the pen.

Hopefully the infusion of new talent breaks up the slowest middle of the lineup I've ever seen.

Frater Perdurabo
07-15-2007, 07:06 AM
I'm not sure Thome could hit the ball the other way if the opposing team took its SS and 3B off the field.

:?:

Thome hit a single to left field just last night.

Overall I agree with your main point: I too think Everett was a very important part of the 2005 offense being very opportunistic and fundamentally sound. However, that train has sailed.

Frater Perdurabo
07-15-2007, 07:22 AM
I can understand the arguments against Thome.

But there are good arguments for keeping him. The best one I've seen is his OPS v. RHP: 1.151 this year!

From 2004-2006, his OPS v. RHP was 1.082!

He's average to poor against LHP: .726 for 04-06 and and .628 in 07. So, find a platoon partner who can put up an OPS better than .628 against LHP and all of a sudden this offense gets much better against LHP.

If Thome were to sit against every LHP, he'd have time to rest his nagging injuries, making him even more effective against RHP.

The only reason to trade Konerko is to get back players and free up money to fill multiple holes. I've made the argument before; I'll probably make it again; I won't make it this week.

Frater Perdurabo
07-15-2007, 07:35 AM
Once upon a time, teams put young starting pitching prospects into the bullpen - much like the Sox did with McCarthy last year, with some success and some failure (4.68 ERA is neither great nor terrible). Buehrle did OK in relief in 2000.

If KW isn't going to trade for veteran relievers right now to shore up the pen, then I'd rather see him stick it out with pitchers who the Sox believe can become starters in the future.

The Sox don't think of Day, Aardsma or Buckvich as future starters. Why? Because they don't have many pitches they can consistently throw for strikes! No wonder these guys haven't been starters in the Sox organization!

I think they do see guys like Gio, Floyd, Sisco, Broadway, Egbert and Russell as future starters. I'd like to see them get some time in the pen this year.

Now, obviously Ozzie would have to manage his pen a little differently. For example, he might err on the side of pulling his starter early. Then, he might just let Gio, Floyd, Sisco, Broadway, Egbert or Russell have enough rope to get themselves into messes, just to see if they can clean up after themselves.

It may be garbage time for the Sox, but it won't be garbage time for the Twins, Indans and Tigers hitters that Sox pitchers will face many times during the next 10 weeks. At the end of the season, the Sox will have a better idea of which of the young starting pitching prospects cannot get MLB hitters out, and which ones might be keepers.

Tragg
07-15-2007, 08:29 AM
The Sox don't think of Day, Aardsma or Buckvich as future starters. Why? Because they don't have many pitches they can consistently throw for strikes! No wonder these guys haven't been starters in the Sox organization!

I think they do see guys like Gio, Floyd, Sisco, Broadway, Egbert and Russell as future starters. I'd like to see them get some time in the pen this year.


It's the same thing with the hitters - we have the young hitters whose ceiling is utility/benchwarmer taking at-bats while the real prospects are in Charlotte or Birmingham. (actually, we probably have too few; KW needs to find more).
I guess the thinking is that the utility ballplayers and the career middle relievers are better right now. Still, right now is 9 below .500 and hopeless, so I hope we eventually reverse that thinking.

Bill Naharodny
07-15-2007, 08:33 AM
What are you saying that some of the 3-6 players should have been traded for a bullpen and 1 and a 9 hitter?

No. I'm saying that if he was going to trade his asset of starting pitching, that he should have traded it for 1/8/9 or bullpen help. He did neither.

Bill Naharodny
07-15-2007, 08:48 AM
There was no reason to expect your entire lineup to hit the way it has. One or two guys have down years - maybe. Dye not repeat? Sure. But there is no viable reason to predict that ALL of Pods, Erstad, Thome, Crede and Pablo would miss as many games as they have and that PK, Iguchi, Dye, AJ and Uribe would all have hit so poorly. One or two of them - sure. But if you are going to predict ALL of that to happen, it would require you to be the most absolutely negative person ever - in the history of humanity. You'd have to have predicted a lot of other teams having similar performances if you believe that the absolute worst possible option would have happened.


Bull****

He spent nearly 100MM this year. We just had a ton of veteran offensive players not live up to their career averages.



I'm not sure what you are talking about - but he unloaded Freddy and his 10mm price tag and got something of value for him. Maybe you think he could have gotten more - but I can't figure out how he got what he got for him - much less more. If you are talking about McCarthy, I don't get that either. He got 2 guys he felt were either ready, or one year away, for one guy who we had soured on. Again - if you think there were better deals out there, and KW failed to capitalize on it, then I guess I need to decide who I think is more skilled as a GM, Kenny Williams or "Bill Naharodny". I'm going out on a limb here and assuming Kenny got the most he could, talked to all potential interested parties, managed his budget/salary as best he could, and did what was best for the team.

Yes, he could have gone out and signed 2 veteran FA RP for about 5mm per. That would have meant cutting 10mm in salary somewhere, so I'm not quite sure how that was to work out...but even if it did, veteran RPs are a major risk and they often fail. Look no further than Howry/Eyre on the North side.

I'm thinking that this is another case of a fan who is taking his anger out over another crappy loss, but would be posting very different if we were playing better baseball. To me - this is more completely baseless speculation.

You're right to a point: it's speculation. That's because I don't have numbers in my cell phone marked "Theo" and "Cashman" and "Ed Wade." Because I'm not paid to be the GM. So you're right. I don't KNOW what was out there.

But you kind of made my point. The guys he got were a year away. He thought that was, as you say, "best for the team." But you're telling me he couldn't have gotten Rowand for Garcia, straight-up? I'm not even a Rowand fan, but that deal certainly could've been done. Garcia was coming off a 17-win season and Rowand was typical Rowand, not this year's version, and they were reportedly ready to deal him because of Victorino and Bourn. I'm not saying that Gonzalez won't be better for the Sox -- in the future -- but that was my point: Williams chose the future over this year.

Your note about the bullpen reinforces the point. It is hard to sign guys for the pen and have it work out. But if you're going to say it's unduly negative to assume hitters will have bad years, you have to admit that it's unduly positive to assume that David Aardsma and Andrew Sisco will have big years. And that's what Kenny did.

As for the lineup, the single most important thing Williams had to address was the leadoff spot. He took the $2.9 million, one-year option. That guy is made of glass. Hell, he was hurt for half of his one good year for us. Last year, he was hurt (or thought he was hurt) for the ENTIRE year. Why on Earth does a competent GM just ignore that?

santo=dorf
07-15-2007, 08:57 AM
Jenks threw a whopping 2 pitches in the 8th. If you want to narrow it down to one play that ruined the game, blame it on Fields' inability to throw a guy out on a routine ground ball.
:rolleyes:
That ball was anything but routine.

Blame the bullpen (again) and Javy's inability to keep a 4 run lead.

What's this nonsense about Konerko not being able to hit anymore?
This month: .429/.520/.905
Last Month: .290/.398/.559

DrCrawdad
07-15-2007, 09:07 AM
It seems as though the anger about the latest loss last night has carried over into this discussion, which is certainly understandable.

At the A.S. break I still harbored hopes that the Sox could turn it around this season, not necessarily a playoff race but winning baseball, respectable baseball. But no.

santo=dorf
07-15-2007, 09:14 AM
There are a lot of problems with this year's team, the Freddy trade is not one of them. Freddy looked like he was a 100 out there. He was throwing like 85 mph. KW got rid of his $10 million contract; got Gio back; and acquired Floyd, who still has a chance to help. Meanwhile, Freddy was pretty bad for the Phils and ended up hurt.

To say we should have gotten more... that's just greedy.
Floyd sucks, Gio is still in AA, that $ was spent on Hall, Erstad and Pods.

KW said he wouldn't trade a SP unless the return package benefited the major league team in 2007. That trade reminds me of the David Wells trade.

SOXandILLINI
07-15-2007, 09:29 AM
It seems as though the anger about the latest loss last night has carried over into this discussion, which is certainly understandable.

At the A.S. break I still harbored hopes that the Sox could turn it around this season, not necessarily a playoff race but winning baseball, respectable baseball. But no.

I ask, in all seriousness, why would anyone be angry? I mean, if any of this surprises you, you're just not the sharpest tool in the box. This team is no good, and teams that are no good lose. Here endeth the lesson, please don't waste your time getting mad, or excited either, it's a waste of energy.

SOXandILLINI
07-15-2007, 09:31 AM
Dye, Cintron and Ozzie deserve a lot of blame for this loss.

Didn't Dye hit into a double play with runners on first and second and nobody out in the seventh when we were up by just 5-4? How many times has he killed rallies this season? It's almost like he's upset that he's not being offered a lucrative new contract so he's trying to hurt this team. His defense is awful, as his ineffective throws hurt us during key points of the game.

Cintron, by the way, if he makes that play in the eighth inning, there are two out and nobody on and Jenks probably doesn't have to come in until the ninth.

Ozzie blew it by not having Iguchi in as a defensive replacement in the eighth for Cintron. Everyone can see that Cintron is unable to throw this year, and his fielding has been horrible too.

Ozzie has nothing to to with any of our losses, or the way this team plays, or for what comes out of his mouth, or anything else, for that matter. Sorry, i can't type in teal.:cool:

RowanDye
07-15-2007, 09:37 AM
Lumping AJ in with Pods, Dye and Erstad? :o:

I admit AJ isn't having a great year. Hell, I just dropped him from my fantasy team. But he goes to the post everyday, and that's a lot more than I can say for our "starting" outfield.

Isn't having a great year? How about "A.J. is having one of his worst years".

There's still time for him to turn it around a bit, but let's face it. A.J. is an offensive catcher at his best, and right now he doesn't even have that. He's in the bottom half for starting catchers in just about every statistical category (defense and offense).

Give him credit for "going to the post everyday" and calling good games, but those are his only redeeming qualities right now.

I didn't want to pick on A.J., because there are so many bigger problems with this team. I just look at this roster and see very few guys that I'm confident will be good next year.

DrCrawdad
07-15-2007, 09:58 AM
I ask, in all seriousness, why would anyone be angry? I mean, if any of this surprises you, you're just not the sharpest tool in the box. This team is no good, and teams that are no good lose. Here endeth the lesson, please don't waste your time getting mad, or excited either, it's a waste of energy.

And since you feel that way, why are you posting messages in this post-game discussion?

Your insults aside, as a lifelong fan of the Sox I want them to win. I've wanted them to win in seasons (like this) when they (inhaled).

Yes I fully realize that this team is lousy and I am not shocked when they lose. However, I still find losses like last night frustrating and maddening.

Max Power
07-15-2007, 10:01 AM
What's BJ's record in save opportunities when he comes in during the 8th inning? It seems like it never ends well.

This team sucks. Is it football season yet?

RowanDye
07-15-2007, 10:17 AM
You're right to a point: it's speculation. That's because I don't have numbers in my cell phone marked "Theo" and "Cashman" and "Ed Wade." Because I'm not paid to be the GM. So you're right. I don't KNOW what was out there.

But you kind of made my point. The guys he got were a year away. He thought that was, as you say, "best for the team." But you're telling me he couldn't have gotten Rowand for Garcia, straight-up? I'm not even a Rowand fan, but that deal certainly could've been done. Garcia was coming off a 17-win season and Rowand was typical Rowand, not this year's version, and they were reportedly ready to deal him because of Victorino and Bourn. I'm not saying that Gonzalez won't be better for the Sox -- in the future -- but that was my point: Williams chose the future over this year.

Your note about the bullpen reinforces the point. It is hard to sign guys for the pen and have it work out. But if you're going to say it's unduly negative to assume hitters will have bad years, you have to admit that it's unduly positive to assume that David Aardsma and Andrew Sisco will have big years. And that's what Kenny did.

As for the lineup, the single most important thing Williams had to address was the leadoff spot. He took the $2.9 million, one-year option. That guy is made of glass. Hell, he was hurt for half of his one good year for us. Last year, he was hurt (or thought he was hurt) for the ENTIRE year. Why on Earth does a competent GM just ignore that?

It looks pretty easy from the other side, doesn't it?

Would you rather he had thrown millions of dollars at Juan Pierre, Matthews Jr., or Dave Roberts?

Those contracts would look great right now on a team that needs to rebuild.

Sometimes a team gambles on a Kenny Rogers, a Magglio Ordonez, or a Gary Sheffield and they stay healthy and turn out great.

Yes, in hindsight KW gambled too much by signing 2 injury-risks in the outfield and by expecting unproven bullpen arms to get the job done. Then Dye got injured, Thome got injured, Crede got injured, and the rest of the offense went to ****.

Pods and Dye were both big parts of the '05 team, and they came in as pretty big gambles. No one could have predicted that the bullpen would have been great either. Then when the "injury-prone" closer we relied on went down, we plugged in an unproven power arm that seemed to work out pretty well.

You win some, you lose some. Even when you spend lots and lots of money it doesn't always work out (see '07 Yankees). When you don't have that much money to spend you have to be a little more financially responsible, so that you don't prevent yourself from being able to compete in the future.

wassagstdu
07-15-2007, 10:36 AM
:rolleyes:
That ball was anything but routine.

And Fields is anything but a major league third baseman. I think we saw his ceiling in his 2nd game. In the previous game (his first) at USCF (where he knew he would play half of his games) there was a slow roller down the line that the visiting 3B decided to let roll. It stayed fair, because the line is sloped that way. Next day Fields gets the exact same play -- and he lets the ball roll. Hawk said somebody on the coaching staff should have told him about the line. I think he is not too smart.

And I do not remember Crede having any trouble in the field all the time he was struggling at the plate.

RowanDye
07-15-2007, 11:10 AM
[quote=wassagstdu;1634716]And Fields is anything but a major league third baseman. I think we saw his ceiling in his 2nd game./quote]

Yea, you're probably right. I mean he turns 25 this year, and he's already played in 45 games. No chance he's going to get any better.

slavko
07-15-2007, 11:31 AM
And I do not remember Crede having any trouble in the field all the time he was struggling at the plate.

His fielding kept him in the lineup when he was hitting .210, and that was for what seems like a long time.

I'm as depressed as the rest of you over these losses, but they're not heartbreaking if you don't expect to win, and I don't after what I've seen up to now. The 2001 bunch always blew a save after the 2000 team never blew a save. The transition with this team has been over 2 years, not one. Is a White Flag the answer for this team? I would prefer a Black Flag right now, and I'm refering to the insecticide.

FielderJones
07-15-2007, 12:19 PM
What's BJ's record in save opportunities when he comes in during the 8th inning? It seems like it never ends well.

Off the top of my head I can think of only one game (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2005/B10050CHA2005.htm) when it ended well.

russ99
07-15-2007, 12:23 PM
Jenks threw a whopping 2 pitches in the 8th. If you want to narrow it down to one play that ruined the game, blame it on Fields' inability to throw a guy out on a routine ground ball.

A closer's mentality is much different if he has to come in before the 9th. How many times has Jenks been ineffective in the 9th when coming in early this season?

The bigger problem is that Ozzie didn't have anyone else in the pen that he could trust to get someone out in that situation.

Why can't the Sox be like other major league teams and deal for relief help when it's obviously necessary to the team's success, instead of bringing up another "rookie-du-jour" and set him up to fail?

Kenny (and the fans) have known the the bullpen is the team's achilles heal for at least 2 months now, and he has done nothing to fix it. I just hope that Ozzie's "get another minor leaguer and hope he can help" quotes are just Kenny flying under the radar and not the team's actual plans the rest of the season, especially since Kenny supposedly has a "Buyers mentality"...

JB98
07-15-2007, 12:48 PM
Isn't having a great year? How about "A.J. is having one of his worst years".

There's still time for him to turn it around a bit, but let's face it. A.J. is an offensive catcher at his best, and right now he doesn't even have that. He's in the bottom half for starting catchers in just about every statistical category (defense and offense).

Give him credit for "going to the post everyday" and calling good games, but those are his only redeeming qualities right now.

I didn't want to pick on A.J., because there are so many bigger problems with this team. I just look at this roster and see very few guys that I'm confident will be good next year.

For a catcher, going to the post everyday and calling good games are the "redeeming qualities" I care most about.

Like most on the team, AJ is capable of more offensively than what he has given this year. But as long as he's out on the field giving an effort, I can't lump him in with Pods, Erstad and Dye.

JB98
07-15-2007, 12:52 PM
It's the same thing with the hitters - we have the young hitters whose ceiling is utility/benchwarmer taking at-bats while the real prospects are in Charlotte or Birmingham. (actually, we probably have too few; KW needs to find more).
I guess the thinking is that the utility ballplayers and the career middle relievers are better right now. Still, right now is 9 below .500 and hopeless, so I hope we eventually reverse that thinking.

What "real" prospects? It seems like we have a host of "Call up Charlotte" posts every time we lose a game.

We already have eight men on our 25-man roster who began the 2007 season in the minor leagues. That's probably why we are such a sorry team. This farm system has failed us miserably. There are two, maybe three guys currently toiling in our minor-league system who are worth looking at the rest of the year at the big-league level.

The rest of the Charlotte Knights are already here, and I can't say that I enjoy watching them.

SOXandILLINI
07-15-2007, 01:26 PM
And since you feel that way, why are you posting messages in this post-game discussion?

Your insults aside, as a lifelong fan of the Sox I want them to win. I've wanted them to win in seasons (like this) when they (inhaled).

Yes I fully realize that this team is lousy and I am not shocked when they lose. However, I still find losses like last night frustrating and maddening.

Well, then i guess it's your wasted energy not mine. As far as why? Unless you're older than I am, I have lived and died with the Sox as much as anybody, and i don't post on here very often, as you can see by my post count. I come, at least now, to see if the attitude of our fan base is shifting at all, and recently it has, thank God, because if we support horse bleep baseball, we get what we deserve.

jabrch
07-15-2007, 01:27 PM
But you're telling me he couldn't have gotten Rowand for Garcia, straight-up?

That would have been a MUCH worse deal - if evaluated at the time. Maybe yes he could have gotten that - maybe not. But I'd much rather have Gio, Gavin, Erstad and $4,000,000 than just Aaron Rowand . It's not even close.


I'm not saying that Gonzalez won't be better for the Sox -- in the future -- but that was my point: Williams chose the future over this year.

No - he took the best available deal. That's his job. He has an organization to run - not today, not tomorrow - but overall. Again - Gio, Gavin, Erstad and 4mm or Rowand - and please do this without hindsight of Rowand hitting 40 pts, obping 50 pts and slging 50 pts all over his career averages and 60-70 pts over what he did last season. That's a no-brainer.

But if you're going to say it's unduly negative to assume hitters will have bad years

No - that's not what I said. I said it is ridiculous to assume ALL of your hitters will have disasterous years. Any single hitter in isolation - it is reasonable to assume they regress to their career averages. But to assume that nearly every single hitter would hit below their career averages is ridiculous.

you have to admit that it's unduly positive to assume that David Aardsma and Andrew Sisco will have big years. And that's what Kenny did.

No - that's not what KW did. He assumed that his entire bullpen, combined, would have some guys pitching even decently. Nobody had to have big years. Just decent. There's a significant difference between the two. Bill - you are making this out to be too much an all or nothing thing. We could have been a contender if half of our hitters had their career averages and half of our bullpen pitched even serviceably. It didn't happen. You can blame KW all you want, but if you do that, I'd like to hear what your plan would have been. With the funds available and only the players available who we had as options, what would you have done?

a competent GM

It's a shame it took me this long to see this comment in your post. I could have saved myself 5 min. If you ask people who actually are involved in the game, very few would have the audicity to say something as bull-headedly stupid as that about the GM who built a team that won a WS two years ago. Find someone new to spew venom to - I'm done with this game.

Bill Naharodny
07-15-2007, 01:33 PM
It looks pretty easy from the other side, doesn't it?

Would you rather he had thrown millions of dollars at Juan Pierre, Matthews Jr., or Dave Roberts?

Those contracts would look great right now on a team that needs to rebuild.

Sometimes a team gambles on a Kenny Rogers, a Magglio Ordonez, or a Gary Sheffield and they stay healthy and turn out great.

Yes, in hindsight KW gambled too much by signing 2 injury-risks in the outfield and by expecting unproven bullpen arms to get the job done. Then Dye got injured, Thome got injured, Crede got injured, and the rest of the offense went to ****.

Pods and Dye were both big parts of the '05 team, and they came in as pretty big gambles. No one could have predicted that the bullpen would have been great either. Then when the "injury-prone" closer we relied on went down, we plugged in an unproven power arm that seemed to work out pretty well.

You win some, you lose some. Even when you spend lots and lots of money it doesn't always work out (see '07 Yankees). When you don't have that much money to spend you have to be a little more financially responsible, so that you don't prevent yourself from being able to compete in the future.

You're not listening. Trades -- not free agents -- for the outfield. That's what many of us wanted. And it ain't hindsight -- at the time, we were holding Williams to what he said: he would only trade pitching to benefit his team this year. That meant for outfielders, a SS or the bullpen. And that's not what he did.

SOXandILLINI
07-15-2007, 01:38 PM
You're not listening. Trades -- not free agents -- for the outfield. That's what many of us wanted. And it ain't hindsight -- at the time, we were holding Williams to what he said: he would only trade pitching to benefit his team this year. That meant for outfielders, a SS or the bullpen. And that's not what he did.

Don't expect to get much support on here if you "bash" KW or OG ,right now, they have unlimited spending money because of the WS, at least, that's what I'm seeing on here.

Bill Naharodny
07-15-2007, 01:40 PM
It's a shame it took me this long to see this comment in your post. I could have saved myself 5 min. If you ask people who actually are involved in the game, very few would have the audicity to say something as bull-headedly stupid as that about the GM who built a team that won a WS two years ago. Find someone new to spew venom to - I'm done with this game.

Not going to chase your whole post. You're making my point again. Williams IS competent. Of course, he is. That's why what he did last year is about his ego. Repeating . . . he threw a fit because the price for starting pitching went up the winter meetings, and decided to trade his veteran starting pitchers for younger starting pitchers, all the while (a) railing against his colleagues; and (b) letting his lousy 1, 8 and 9 hitters remain. C'mon. That's not venom. That's what happened.

You may right; maybe in the long run he's correct. But most people recognized that it would be hard to compete in 2007 and re-tool for 2008. And it has been.

Bill Naharodny
07-15-2007, 01:41 PM
Don't expect to get much support on here if you "bash" KW or OG ,right now, they have unlimited spending money because of the WS, at least, that's what I'm seeing on here.

In the words of Hawk, what new?

RowanDye
07-15-2007, 01:46 PM
You're not listening. Trades -- not free agents -- for the outfield. That's what many of us wanted. And it ain't hindsight -- at the time, we were holding Williams to what he said: he would only trade pitching to benefit his team this year. That meant for outfielders, a SS or the bullpen. And that's not what he did.

I don't think you'd last very long as a GM if you're trading away your starting pitching for guys like Aaron Rowand.

jabrch
07-15-2007, 01:48 PM
I don't think you'd last very long as a GM if you're trading away your starting pitching for guys like Aaron Rowand.

And we'd still have been $4,000,000 in the hole on that deal - so in addition to Freddy we'd have had to unload another 4mm in salary.

Oh - and Aaron Rowand, before this season, has been fairly mediocre offensively for a while.

RowanDye
07-15-2007, 01:58 PM
And we'd still have been $4,000,000 in the hole on that deal - so in addition to Freddy we'd have had to unload another 4mm in salary.

Oh - and Aaron Rowand, before this season, has been fairly mediocre offensively for a while.

Yea, but if you just pick the players who are having a good season and say we should have traded for them it makes you look smarter than KW.

Bill Naharodny
07-15-2007, 02:24 PM
I don't think you'd last very long as a GM if you're trading away your starting pitching for guys like Aaron Rowand.

Wait. I thought that Freddie was injured and overpaid and in the last year of his deal. So, which is it -- Williams did a great job getting what he did or Rowand wasn't worth the injured, overpaid guy in the last year of his deal?

You guys are something else.

Bill Naharodny
07-15-2007, 02:25 PM
Yea, but if you just pick the players who are having a good season and say we should have traded for them it makes you look smarter than KW.

Hey there, fella. I'm not even a Rowand fan, but I think we'd take Rowand's typical year right about now, wouldn't we? Eh. You're right. Terrero's the man.

santo=dorf
07-15-2007, 02:28 PM
Oh - and Aaron Rowand, before this season, has been fairly mediocre offensively for a while.
So if Rowand has been "mediocre offensively for a while," what did that make Grinderstad before the season? Why did you have such lofty expectations for the Grindstone Cowboy this offseason (.280 average, .340+ OBP.)?

UserNameBlank
07-15-2007, 02:29 PM
Not going to chase your whole post. You're making my point again. Williams IS competent. Of course, he is. That's why what he did last year is about his ego. Repeating . . . he threw a fit because the price for starting pitching went up the winter meetings, and decided to trade his veteran starting pitchers for younger starting pitchers, all the while (a) railing against his colleagues; and (b) letting his lousy 1, 8 and 9 hitters remain. C'mon. That's not venom. That's what happened.

You may right; maybe in the long run he's correct. But most people recognized that it would be hard to compete in 2007 and re-tool for 2008. And it has been.
Take a deep breath.

First of all, Freddy Garcia = broken. McCarthy wasn't a veteran. Brandon also spent a lot of time on the DL this year and might still be on it, and before going to the DL, he was garbage. As of this moment KW absolutely fleeced Texas and Philly on those trades.

Secondly, I doubt the price of SP affected those trades anywhere near as much as you speculate. Garcia lost his arm and KW collected on value. And on Brandon, well, Brandon wasn't making anything.

Lastly, someone already mentioned the OF. What were the alternatives to Pods on the FA market? And why would you think some team would just give up a leadoff hitter without getting something substantial back? I doubt KW is an idiot; idiots don't pass Ninja Training. I'm sure he shopped around for an improvement and found out that the price was too much for whatever it was he wanted, so he passed. On Uribe, again, what were the options? The best options at the time were Julio Lugo and Alex Gonzalez. That's not what I'd call improvement. And on CF, Erstad was brought in to be a bench player and sub in at 3 different positions. He ended up starting because Ozzie's kid caught Brian Anderson at an alternative lifestyle bar trying to take over the world and soon enough ended up on the DL. What could/should he have done?

It's waaaaay too easy to rip KW for this mess that is the 2007 season. When we left Atlanta to start the season we had a very good team on paper that a lot of people here thought would win the division, and a team that was thought by most to be a contender at the very least. That is all a GM can do. KW can't hit for the players, can't field for the players, can't pitch for the players. He did his job to the best of his ability and now he has to fix what went wrong. Give him time and he will try again.

Patrick134
07-15-2007, 02:40 PM
Take a deep breath.

First of all, Freddy Garcia = broken. McCarthy wasn't a veteran. Brandon also spent a lot of time on the DL this year and might still be on it, and before going to the DL, he was garbage. As of this moment KW absolutely fleeced Texas and Philly on those trades.

Secondly, I doubt the price of SP affected those trades anywhere near as much as you speculate. Garcia lost his arm and KW collected on value. And on Brandon, well, Brandon wasn't making anything.

Lastly, someone already mentioned the OF. What were the alternatives to Pods on the FA market? And why would you think some team would just give up a leadoff hitter without getting something substantial back? I doubt KW is an idiot; idiots don't pass Ninja Training. I'm sure he shopped around for an improvement and found out that the price was too much for whatever it was he wanted, so he passed. On Uribe, again, what were the options? The best options at the time were Julio Lugo and Alex Gonzalez. That's not what I'd call improvement. And on CF, Erstad was brought in to be a bench player and sub in at 3 different positions. He ended up starting because Ozzie's kid caught Brian Anderson at an alternative lifestyle bar trying to take over the world and soon enough ended up on the DL. What could/should he have done?

It's waaaaay too easy to rip KW for this mess that is the 2007 season. When we left Atlanta to start the season we had a very good team on paper that a lot of people here thought would win the division, and a team that was thought by most to be a contender at the very least. That is all a GM can do. KW can't hit for the players, can't field for the players, can't pitch for the players. He did his job to the best of his ability and now he has to fix what went wrong. Give him time and he will try again.


Amen. It's time to stop blaming Kenny ( or Ozzie) every time a guy strikes out , makes an error, or throws a bad pitch. Gm's or manager get too much blame, and on the flipside, too much credit when things go well.

jabrch
07-15-2007, 03:02 PM
Yea, but if you just pick the players who are having a good season and say we should have traded for them it makes you look smarter than KW.

While we are at it, let's discuss guys we didn't draft...

jabrch
07-15-2007, 03:06 PM
Amen. It's time to stop blaming Kenny ( or Ozzie) every time a guy strikes out , makes an error, or throws a bad pitch. Gm's or manager get too much blame, and on the flipside, too much credit when things go well.

Agreed - 100%. It was no more all KW's fault that guys didn't hit or pitch this year than it was responsibility for why they did in 2005 and 2006.

KW built a team that had the talent to conted, if things went well. That's what you ask your GM to do. If we have $150mm in payroll, it would be reasonable to expect to make the post season every year. (NY/Boston) But with a 90-100mm payroll, you will have years you make it - and years you don't.

WhiteSox5187
07-15-2007, 03:30 PM
Agreed - 100%. It was no more all KW's fault that guys didn't hit or pitch this year than it was responsibility for why they did in 2005 and 2006.

KW built a team that had the talent to conted, if things went well. That's what you ask your GM to do. If we have $150mm in payroll, it would be reasonable to expect to make the post season every year. (NY/Boston) But with a 90-100mm payroll, you will have years you make it - and years you don't.
See, I think there were some holes that Kenny failed to address, like shortstop, leadoff and center but then again hindsight is always twenty twenty and who else could he have gotten? Soriano?

What's unnerving is that this team is FINDING ways to lose games and that Jenks velocity is waaay down. Now this happens to closers a lot though, exception being Mariano. They're lights out for a year and then become very hittable for a year and then the next year, look out! Trevor Hoffman has had this happen to him a lot. I'm also starting to wonder if luck is just run out on us of late. I mean in 2005 and 2006 it seemed like everything went right. We were healthy, a lot of our players had career years and played waaaay over their heads, this year we might have been do for a setback and that's just what is happening. I think it's time to say "good bye" to some our '05 favorites meaning Jose, Dye, Pods, and Uribe and see what we have down on the farm. I know we don't have a whole lot in short but we have some guys for the outfield (even though Anderson is apparently hurting again), let's call them up and see if they sink or swim.

jabrch
07-15-2007, 03:40 PM
See, I think there were some holes that Kenny failed to address, like shortstop, leadoff and center but then again hindsight is always twenty twenty and who else could he have gotten? Soriano?


At the same time, Darin had a pretty good May after a pretty bad April before getting hurt, and Uribe is a very good defensive SS who is underpeforming his career offensive numbers across the board, without explanation.

WhiteSox5187
07-15-2007, 03:46 PM
At the same time, Darin had a pretty good May after a pretty bad April before getting hurt, and Uribe is a very good defensive SS who is underpeforming his career offensive numbers across the board, without explanation.
See, I think Uribe is just a very average shorstop (if not below average) defensively with a cannon for an arm. As for offensively, if you take away 2004, he's always been at best a .250 hitter with a lot more strike outs than walks and about twenty or so homeruns. Although his average has dipped way below .250 this year and '06, so obviously somethign is going on there and I'm not so sure whether or not it can be fixed. But I'm pretty sick of seeing him swing for the fences every bloody at bat. It could very well be that he just doesn't listen to any coaches.

santo=dorf
07-15-2007, 03:49 PM
At the same time, Darin had a pretty good May after a pretty bad April before getting hurt,
:rolleyes:
April: .261/.313/.375/.688 OPS 2 HR, 11 RBI's
May: .266/.310/.309/.619 OPS 0HR, 10 RBI's

:rolleyes:

UserNameBlank
07-15-2007, 04:11 PM
:rolleyes:
April: .261/.313/.375/.688 OPS 2 HR, 11 RBI's
May: .266/.310/.309/.619 OPS 0HR, 10 RBI's

:rolleyes:
Yeah sure, make fun of Darin. I'm sure YOU could run down a cheetah, kill it with your bare hands, and fashion its hide into batting gloves...

Grinderstad is a living, breathing monument to mankind. He broke his ankle for our sins. Poor guy.

JB98
07-15-2007, 04:13 PM
At the same time, Darin had a pretty good May after a pretty bad April before getting hurt, and Uribe is a very good defensive SS who is underpeforming his career offensive numbers across the board, without explanation.

Erstad had several big hits for this team in May, which is lost upon the statheads here who look at nothing but raw data.

santo=dorf
07-15-2007, 04:28 PM
Erstad had several big hits for this team in May, which is lost upon the statheads here who look at nothing but raw data.
so him getting one late hit make up for not doing anything earlier in the game? That's stupid. We should only judge a hitter's success by the number of "big hits?" That's Chris Farley logic.

If Darin plays well earlier in the game we don't need to rely on late inning hits.

So how many more "big hits" did Darin have in his "pretty good" May compared to his "pretty bad April." It couldn't have been many considering his OPS was 70 points less and he had one less RBI.

But since you and jabrch can vivdly recall all of his hits, please share with me all of the "several" big hits.

I know he had the GW RBI in Detroit, but that was in April.

Brian26
07-15-2007, 05:22 PM
:?:

Thome hit a single to left field just last night.

Overall I agree with your main point: I too think Everett was a very important part of the 2005 offense being very opportunistic and fundamentally sound. However, that train has sailed.

Oh I was being sarcastic on the Thome bit, and obviously Everett is not an option at DH now.

Brian26
07-15-2007, 05:26 PM
And since you feel that way, why are you posting messages in this post-game discussion?

Your insults aside, as a lifelong fan of the Sox I want them to win. I've wanted them to win in seasons (like this) when they (inhaled).

Yes I fully realize that this team is lousy and I am not shocked when they lose. However, I still find losses like last night frustrating and maddening.

I'm right there with you Craw. It's part of being a true fan. You know in your heart they probably are done, but you still want to see them win a winnable game, and you certainly hope they could go on a nice run and make it interesting. True fans are still watching the games. The World Series fans have hopped off the bandwagon.

I don't understand the concept of berating someone on a whitesox message board for still caring about the team. That's ignorant and ludicrous.

Brian26
07-15-2007, 05:30 PM
Well, then i guess it's your wasted energy not mine. As far as why? Unless you're older than I am, I have lived and died with the Sox as much as anybody, and i don't post on here very often, as you can see by my post count. I come, at least now, to see if the attitude of our fan base is shifting at all, and recently it has, thank God, because if we support horse bleep baseball, we get what we deserve.

I honestly don't know what the hell your point is. So I was out last night having dinner, and the Sox game was on tv. I shouldn't have watched it or felt mad when they blew it in the 9th? I'm not supposed to go to any more games this year with the tickets I've already purchased?

Give it a rest. You're far from a Rhodes Scholar, and you don't need to tell anybody on a Sox board how to act.

SOXandILLINI
07-15-2007, 05:37 PM
I honestly don't know what the hell your point is. So I was out last night having dinner, and the Sox game was on tv. I shouldn't have watched it or felt mad when they blew it in the 9th? I'm not supposed to go to any more games this year with the tickets I've already purchased?

Give it a rest. You're far from a Rhodes Scholar, and you don't need to tell anybody on a Sox board how to act.

If I had $100 bucks for every I.Q. point mine was higher than yours, I could take a very nice extended vacation, and as far as baseball is concerned.... WOW.

SOXandILLINI
07-15-2007, 05:40 PM
Now, it's probably time for me to get banned again, because I started this?..... :o:

Brian26
07-15-2007, 05:40 PM
If I had $100 bucks for every I.Q. point mine was higher than yours, I could take a very nice extended vacation, and as far as baseball is concerned.... WOW.

You'd owe me money.

Thanks for contributing to the conversation though.

JB98
07-15-2007, 05:42 PM
I'm right there with you Craw. It's part of being a true fan. You know in your heart they probably are done, but you still want to see them win a winnable game, and you certainly hope they could go on a nice run and make it interesting. True fans are still watching the games. The World Series fans have hopped off the bandwagon.

I don't understand the concept of berating someone on a whitesox message board for still caring about the team. That's ignorant and ludicrous.

I agree, and next time we win the division and contend for a World Series, living through this year will make that experience all the more rewarding.

No matter how bad it gets, I'm still going to watch an overwhelming majority of the games. Sometimes, it gets tough, and I take a day off from the team. But I can't stay away for long. White Sox baseball essentially is my summer.

I know the 2007 Sox suck. But every one of the 50 losses we have has stung. I still care, still want to win. Even if we have no playoff hopes, I still have hope each and every day that the Sox will win that day's game. If that makes me a fool, then I'll wear that.

SOXandILLINI
07-15-2007, 05:43 PM
Dream on. :gulp:

Brian26
07-15-2007, 05:47 PM
I agree, and next time we win the division and contend for a World Series, living through this year will make that experience all the more rewarding.

No matter how bad it gets, I'm still going to watch an overwhelming majority of the games. Sometimes, it gets tough, and I take a day off from the team. But I can't stay away for long. White Sox baseball essentially is my summer.

I know the 2007 Sox suck. But every one of the 50 losses we have has stung. I still care, still want to win. Even if we have no playoff hopes, I still have hope each and every day that the Sox will win that day's game. If that makes me a fool, then I'll wear that.

:thumbsup:

I don't really follow any other sports anymore, so baseball is my passion. You can't just turn it on and turn it off.

And like you said, you'll be able to honestly enjoy their next successful run in the postseason (whether that's next year or ten years from now), because you were with them through thick and thin, unlike the bandwagon fans that come out of the woodwork in September looking for playoff tickets.

SOXandILLINI
07-15-2007, 05:52 PM
:thumbsup:

I don't really follow any other sports anymore, so baseball is my passion. You can't just turn it on and turn it off.

And like you said, you'll be able to honestly enjoy their next successful run in the postseason (whether that's next year or ten years from now), because you were with them through thick and thin, unlike the bandwagon fans that come out of the woodwork in September looking for playoff tickets.

If, by chance, you were referrring to me by bandwagon fans, you haven't a clue. I am 43 years old, came out of the womb a White Sox fanatic, and if they went 0-162, I would still love the Sox. I was a season ticket holder in the early 90's thru the late 90's and again since 2004, just so you have a little backround. Never let the facts get in the way. I make a modest living and still shell out $5300 bucks this year... Bandwagon?... Just because I refuse to support, at least by my words, horsecrap baseball, doesn't make me anything but what I've always been, a White Sox fan and a Cub hater. I just don't want to be a hypocrite and continue to go out and support a team that is terrible. I made fun of Cub fans for years for this, and I will not allow the tables to be turned. I guess that everybody that says anything against George Bush, hates America too? For the record, I don't hate our president.... :)

Brian26
07-15-2007, 05:55 PM
If, by chance, you were referrring to me by bandwagon fans, you haven't a clue. I am 43 years old, came out of the womb a White Sox fanatic, and if they went 0-162, I would still love the Sox. I was a season ticket holder in the early 90's thru the late 90's and again since 2004, just so you have a little backround. Never let the facts get in the way. I make a modest living and still shell out $5300 bucks this year... Bandwagon?

I wasn't refering to you when I was talking about bandwagon fans. I think most people that post here are true Sox fans.

RowanDye
07-15-2007, 07:57 PM
But you're telling me he couldn't have gotten Rowand for Garcia, straight-up? I'm not even a Rowand fan, but that deal certainly could've been done....

As for the lineup, the single most important thing Williams had to address was the leadoff spot.


You're not listening. Trades -- not free agents -- for the outfield. That's what many of us wanted. And it ain't hindsight -- at the time, we were holding Williams to what he said: he would only trade pitching to benefit his team this year. That meant for outfielders, a SS or the bullpen. And that's not what he did.

Wait. I thought that Freddie was injured and overpaid and in the last year of his deal. So, which is it -- Williams did a great job getting what he did or Rowand wasn't worth the injured, overpaid guy in the last year of his deal?

You guys are something else.

Williams ...decided to trade his veteran starting pitchers for younger starting pitchers, all the while (a) railing against his colleagues; and (b) letting his lousy 1, 8 and 9 hitters remain.

Hey there, fella. I'm not even a Rowand fan, but I think we'd take Rowand's typical year right about now, wouldn't we? Eh. You're right. Terrero's the man.

I'm just trying to make a little sense of your crazy. You would have traded Garcia for Rowand straight up, and would be happy even if he was performing around his career averages. No matter that Rowand can't leadoff, so it still does nothing to solve what you call "the single most important thing Williams had to address".

Then I guess you would have tried to trade McCarthy for some unknown leadoff hitter?

Then maybe you would have won the lottery so that you could afford to sign a bullpen arm, and two more starting pitchers to fill the rotation?

The #1 thing I hear KW say about trading pitching is that he always wants to get pitching back. Otherwise you're screwed! Have you ever thought for a second that KW had an inkling that Freddy and McCarthy weren't going to get it done this year? Then he went and did just as you asked, tried to improve the team this year, by trading for 2 guys that had a better chance of helping the team (Floyd and Danks). Danks worked out, Floyd hasn't. Since you love hindsight so much, Danks sure has helped the team this year more than Garcia or McCarthy would have.

Patrick134
07-15-2007, 08:11 PM
:thumbsup:

I don't really follow any other sports anymore, so baseball is my passion. You can't just turn it on and turn it off.

And like you said, you'll be able to honestly enjoy their next successful run in the postseason (whether that's next year or ten years from now), because you were with them through thick and thin, unlike the bandwagon fans that come out of the woodwork in September looking for playoff tickets.


Amen. Of course winning the WS in 05 got us all greedy, but to see fans moan about the fact we may not win 2 world series in a 3 year span is laughable. Granted winning it all doesnt make the next years less important as far as winning, but be realistic.

SOXandILLINI
07-15-2007, 08:39 PM
Amen. Of course winning the WS in 05 got us all greedy, but to see fans moan about the fact we may not win 2 world series in a 3 year span is laughable. Granted winning it all doesnt make the next years less important as far as winning, but be realistic.

I'm not gonna get into a urinating contest with you, because I know you'd like to draw me into one, but, it isn't realistic to be a good baseball team 1 1/2 years removed from a world series? News flash, we stink, and we have for a full year now, taking into account last years second half.

Patrick134
07-15-2007, 09:01 PM
I'm not gonna get into a urinating contest with you, because I know you'd like to draw me into one, but, it isn't realistic to be a good baseball team 1 1/2 years removed from a world series? News flash, we stink, and we have for a full year now, taking into account last years second half.



This year's team has also been decimated by injuries. No starting lineup with Gonzales, Fields, Terrero, Owens and Hall in it belongs anywhere near the division lead.

WhiteSox5187
07-15-2007, 10:21 PM
This year's team has also been decimated by injuries. No starting lineup with Gonzales, Fields, Terrero, Owens and Hall in it belongs anywhere near the division lead.
I agree...and I agree with Sox and Illini too...it really isn't unreasonable to ask for a team with a one hundred million dollar payroll to at least compete, and we're not doing that. The reason we're not doing that though is because of injuries. Mr. Lipitak (I'm so sorry if I misspelled your name!) just wrote an interesting column called "what if?" well, what if Erstad, Pods and Ozuna had stayed healthy all year long? Maybe they're not in first place, but they sure as hell aren't ten games under. Even with this lousy bullpen....fact is though, that we got hurt and none of the guys we've called up have contributed a damn (though I still think we gave up on Sweeney a little early and the jury is still out on Owens, but it ain't looking good) and that really has shown the gaping hole we have right now in our farm system. But truth be told this wasn't the team that Kenny had in mind right now, nor was it the team Ozzie had in mind either. This team as constructed right now is AT BEST a .500 club.

Bill Naharodny
07-15-2007, 10:24 PM
I'm just trying to make a little sense of your crazy. You would have traded Garcia for Rowand straight up, and would be happy even if he was performing around his career averages. No matter that Rowand can't leadoff, so it still does nothing to solve what you call "the single most important thing Williams had to address".

Then I guess you would have tried to trade McCarthy for some unknown leadoff hitter?

Then maybe you would have won the lottery so that you could afford to sign a bullpen arm, and two more starting pitchers to fill the rotation?

The #1 thing I hear KW say about trading pitching is that he always wants to get pitching back. Otherwise you're screwed! Have you ever thought for a second that KW had an inkling that Freddy and McCarthy weren't going to get it done this year? Then he went and did just as you asked, tried to improve the team this year, by trading for 2 guys that had a better chance of helping the team (Floyd and Danks). Danks worked out, Floyd hasn't. Since you love hindsight so much, Danks sure has helped the team this year more than Garcia or McCarthy would have.

Okay, let me take a swing here:

(1) Leadoff was the single most important thing to address. As the year wore on, Williams and Guillen said this continually. I used Rowand, on the other hand, as a "for example" to boost #8 or #9, our lousy hitting centerfielder position. This isn't so crazy. Many reports indicated that Williams was looking at him this spring for just that purpose. Presumably, you could still get a leftfielder or shortstop (Rollins, maybe) to leadoff.

(2) Even if you couldn't address the top priority -- find a leadoff guy -- that doesn't mean you just ignore the other spots, too. My guess is that Williams would agree; that's why Brother Erstad (who I like in a limited role, by the way) is here. So Williams's starting pitching could have been used for someone more reliable than Darin -- hence, Rowand or other outfielders. (And if that's imprecise, it's because I don't have rosters sitting here in front of me.)

(3) As for McCarthy, every time I used to see Carl Crawford's name, I used to see Brandon McCarthy's name. Maybe other players would've been needed. But you don't know any better than I do.

(4) Floyd. Hmm. No.

(5) Danks. Good pitcher -- will need another pitch to be successful a few times around the league, but I have little doubt he can develop it. But KW said specifically that Floyd was getting the 5th starter's job. Danks wasn't slated for this year.

Bottom line: let's step back for a second. If someone had said, at the outset of the last off-season, that the Sox would trade Garcia and McCarthy and, in doing so, not replace Pods, Uribe or Anderson, or get an arm for the bullpen, wouldn't that have seemed strange? That's all I'm saying. Hell, I bet Williams would've thought it strange -- until Lilly got his money. THAT was when Williams said he would trade pitching for pitching -- and he meant young and not-near-6th-year-arbitration pitching.

And, by the way, if the reports are correct, he doesn't seemed married to this concept every time he trades -- after all, the main rumors had Buehrle going for Matt Kemp or Jacob Ellsbury, among others. Maybe Kenny now realizes that it wouldn't be so bad to fill in the everyday spots in his lineup. Like I said a long time ago in this thread, Williams is a smart guy. He's responsible for the 2005 team. I just thought he was too clever by a half last year.

Thanks for the back and forth.

jabrch
07-16-2007, 08:30 AM
I'm not gonna get into a urinating contest with you, because I know you'd like to draw me into one, but, it isn't realistic to be a good baseball team 1 1/2 years removed from a world series? News flash, we stink, and we have for a full year now, taking into account last years second half.

Sure it is "realistic" but it is also "realistic" that half your starting players get injured and your bullpen guys from that WS team don't throw like they did - so you stink. Both are realistic - one happened while the other didn't.

sharrychrist
07-16-2007, 08:48 AM
Hi, this post is very informative; however I would like some specific information. If someone can help me then please send me a private message. Best Regards,

jabrch
07-16-2007, 08:50 AM
Hi, this post is very informative; however I would like some specific information. If someone can help me then please send me a private message. Best Regards,

Hmmmm....Can I subscribe to your newsletter?

SOXandILLINI
07-16-2007, 09:37 AM
Sure it is "realistic" but it is also "realistic" that half your starting players get injured and your bullpen guys from that WS team don't throw like they did - so you stink. Both are realistic - one happened while the other didn't.

I guess no one wants to adress the fact that this slide started last year, and while we were still relatively healthy this year.... ok.... i'm too lazy to look it up, anyone know what our record is over the last 162?

jabrch
07-16-2007, 09:53 AM
I guess no one wants to adress the fact that this slide started last year

It has nothing to do with "wanting to address" anything. This is not the same problem as last year.

There is a totally different problem that this team had in last year's second half (SP completely fell apart) and this year (hitting and bullpen). Last year if Contreras, Buehrle and Vazquez pitched remotely well, we'd have been in the post season.

When Vazquez pitched, we were 2-15 in his last 17 starts (Javy was 2-8)
When Buehrle pitched, we were 6-10 in his last 16 starts (Mark was 3-10)
When Contreras pitched, we were 4-10 in his last 14 starts (Jose was 3-9)

Meanwhile the only guys who threw well were Jon and Freddy
When Garcia pitched, we were 10-3 in his last 13 starts. (Freddy was 7-3)
When Garland pitched, we were 15-6 in his last 21 starts. (Jon was 14-4)

That's not the problem this year -- not at all. Our starting pitching so far has been damn good except for Jose.

itsnotrequired
07-16-2007, 10:07 AM
It has nothing to do with "wanting to address" anything. This is not the same problem as last year.

There is a totally different problem that this team had in last year's second half (SP completely fell apart) and this year (hitting and bullpen). Last year if Contreras, Buehrle and Vazquez pitched remotely well, we'd have been in the post season.

When Vazquez pitched, we were 2-15 in his last 17 starts (Javy was 2-8)
When Buehrle pitched, we were 6-10 in his last 16 starts (Mark was 3-10)
When Contreras pitched, we were 4-10 in his last 14 starts (Jose was 3-9)

Meanwhile the only guys who threw well were Jon and Freddy
When Garcia pitched, we were 10-3 in his last 13 starts. (Freddy was 7-3)
When Garland pitched, we were 15-6 in his last 21 starts. (Jon was 14-4)

That's not the problem this year -- not at all. Our starting pitching so far has been damn good except for Jose.

Vazquez pitched very well in September but the offense decided not to support him. For his six starts between August 25 and September 21, he gave up three or fewer runs in each start. All were quality starts (6+ IP, 3 or fewer ERs) except August 25 where he missed it by one out. Results of those six games? 0-3 record for Javy with 3 no decisions. Javy gets a bit of a bad rap for the end of the season.

None of Garcia's four starts between August 18 and September 3 were quality (gave up 5 ER in each start) yet offensive production was enough to give him 2 wins. No doubt he was the man in those September games against the Angels and Tigers where he pitched 8 innings and gave up only 1 hit in each of them.

jabrch
07-16-2007, 10:15 AM
Vazquez pitched very well in September

Javy's ERA was over 4.80 nearly the entire last 3 months of the season, ending at 4.84. He had a few good starts, but was bad all in all. He taxed the bullpen quite a bit.

None of Garcia's four starts between August 18 and September 3 were quality (gave up 5 ER in each start) yet offensive production was enough to give him 2 wins. No doubt he was the man in those September games against the Angels and Tigers where he pitched 8 innings and gave up only 1 hit in each of them.

Freddy was a horse during those same three months. He was going deep into games and pitching well.

itsnotrequired
07-16-2007, 10:29 AM
Javy's ERA was over 4.80 nearly the entire last 3 months of the season, ending at 4.84. He had a few good starts, but was bad all in all. He taxed the bullpen quite a bit.

Freddy was a horse during those same three months. He was going deep into games and pitching well.

Over their last ten starts, Vazquez pitched 64 innings and Garcia pitched 69. Both gave up 30 runs each. ERAs are essentially identical.

Vazquez got 19 runs of support for a 0-6 record. Garcia? He got 71 runs of support for a 7-2 record.

Even if you take the last three months of the season (17 starts each), Garcia only threw 8 more innings than Vazquez, less than half an inning a game. If you count the 1.2 innings Javy threw in that long game against Bosoton, the difference works out to only an extra out per start.

:dunno:

SOXandILLINI
07-16-2007, 11:55 AM
It has nothing to do with "wanting to address" anything. This is not the same problem as last year.

There is a totally different problem that this team had in last year's second half (SP completely fell apart) and this year (hitting and bullpen). Last year if Contreras, Buehrle and Vazquez pitched remotely well, we'd have been in the post season.

When Vazquez pitched, we were 2-15 in his last 17 starts (Javy was 2-8)
When Buehrle pitched, we were 6-10 in his last 16 starts (Mark was 3-10)
When Contreras pitched, we were 4-10 in his last 14 starts (Jose was 3-9)

Meanwhile the only guys who threw well were Jon and Freddy
When Garcia pitched, we were 10-3 in his last 13 starts. (Freddy was 7-3)
When Garland pitched, we were 15-6 in his last 21 starts. (Jon was 14-4)

That's not the problem this year -- not at all. Our starting pitching so far has been damn good except for Jose.

I beg to differ, it is the same problem.... LOSING, and it started last year in the second half, and you know it. what was the excuse last year? I'm not gonna sit here and say that injuries have nothing to do with our performance, I'm sure they do, but it doesn't explain away last years second half and the beginning of this year. This is the problem I have with some people on this board. You can throw all the stats in the world at me, the only stat that matters is W's and L's PERIOD.

Lip Man 1
07-16-2007, 12:37 PM
The Sox went into a tailspin the second half of last season and haven't come out of it.

They had a losing record in the seond half of 06 after a brilliant first half performance. I mean they were 28 games over .500 at the break, yet wound up winning 'only' 90 games.

Lip

jabrch
07-16-2007, 12:49 PM
it is the same problem.... LOSING

Losing is the result. It is not the problem. You can't fix LOSING. You can fix hitting. You can fix pitching. You can't fix losing as it has far too many variables, including both hitting and pitching.