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MattSharp
04-04-2002, 01:03 AM
Stupid mother@@#!$@#$

Yea 2nd best closer in the MLB my ass. 7-8-9 due up and he blows a 3 run lead. He is benched on my fantassy team after taht performancee........

Jjav829
04-04-2002, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by MattSharp
Stupid mother@@#!$@#$

Yea 2nd best closer in the MLB my ass. 7-8-9 due up and he blows a 3 run lead. He is benched on my fantassy team after taht performancee........

You know, with all the talk of Foulke being the #2 closer in baseball, im NEVER comfortable when he enters the game with a lead. I don't buy it.

Mathew
04-04-2002, 01:04 AM
I thought his specialty was blowing tie games not 3 run leads!

OfficerKarkovice
04-04-2002, 01:05 AM
He is a long way from being even close to one of the best closers in the league...when Rivera, Benitez, Nenn, Hoffman, etc. come in nobody is sh*tting their pants...with Foulke I'm never comfortable.

Tragg
04-04-2002, 01:10 AM
The thing is, what manager brings in his closer in a non-save situation (unless they haven't worked in a week).
He's the best we've got, but he really shouldn't have been in there in the first place.

Mathew
04-04-2002, 01:12 AM
It was a save situation only 3 run lead.

Tragg
04-04-2002, 01:17 AM
3 runs and nobody on is a save situation? hence the term "cheap save", I guess. Still, I wouldn't use my closer at that point.
Foulke isn't a hard thrower - doesn't intimidate anyone. Not that it means he isn't effective - he usually is.
Overall, I'm still not worried about our pen like everyone else is. A lot of the hits have been chickensh*t - there are several guys who have pitched well before. And tonight was Foulke - yes, if he has a bad year we are in trouble, but that's far from determined.

Mathew
04-04-2002, 01:20 AM
Cheap save, maybe, but tough blown save!

Lip Man 1
04-04-2002, 02:17 AM
I'm usually pretty good with words but frankly they fail me right now.

At least the Sox didn't get swept in Seattle (although they should have), but the fact is this pitching staff has allowed 19 runs in three games, they've blown two games where they had the lead in the 7th inning or later, and nearly blew a third one AND IT'S JUST THE FIRST WEEK.

Those of you out there who are "optimists" can't blame this on Tuscon or the elements.

This is a BAD pitching staff. Too many injured guys trying to come back, too many "can't miss kids" with no experience, no reliable left handers out in the pen, and too many guys who pitched well in 2000 and haven't done squat since.

Not a good scenario is it?

And if you are honest you have to ask this question, if this continues how long before the other players, the hitters, start to take sides and you have a divided clubhouse?

Like my late father used to say "you get what you pay for..." and Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams are getting their just desserts. Unfortunately it's the good fans of the Sox who are going to pay the heaviest price.

Lip

bjmarte
04-04-2002, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I'm usually pretty good with words but frankly they fail me right now.

At least the Sox didn't get swept in Seattle (although they should have), but the fact is this pitching staff has allowed 19 runs in three games, they've blown two games where they had the lead in the 7th inning or later, and nearly blew a third one AND IT'S JUST THE FIRST WEEK.

Those of you out there who are "optimists" can't blame this on Tuscon or the elements.

This is a BAD pitching staff. Too many injured guys trying to come back, too many "can't miss kids" with no experience, no reliable left handers out in the pen, and too many guys who pitched well in 2000 and haven't done squat since.

Not a good scenario is it?

And if you are honest you have to ask this question, if this continues how long before the other players, the hitters, start to take sides and you have a divided clubhouse?

Like my late father used to say "you get what you pay for..." and Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams are getting their just desserts. Unfortunately it's the good fans of the Sox who are going to pay the heaviest price.

Lip

What are you going to do when the sox win a game and shatter your reality?

doublem23
04-04-2002, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by bjmarte


What are you going to do when the sox win a game and shatter your reality?

I don't know... Lip is the only Sox fan I've ever encountered who I think would be upset when the Sox win it all.

Soxboyrob
04-04-2002, 09:24 AM
I know that Foulke is customarily brought in for situations like that, but count me as one who was saying aloud "as good as Osuna looks, bringing in Foulke for the ninth inning does nothing but give the M's new life...I'm nervous about this."

Realizing, of course, that Keith usually gets those saves w/ room to spare, taking a hot pitcher out of the game gives the other team a chance to possibly catch the next pitcher on a bad day. Keep changing pitchers and sooner or later, one of them will be off their game. I can't blame this on Manuel. He just made his pitching changes according to what usually works. But where is it written that we couldn't just leave Osuna out there for the ninth? It would have been a long outing for him, but today's an offday. Just my thoughts.

DaveGusinSeattle
04-04-2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
I know that Foulke is customarily brought in for situations like that, but count me as one who was saying aloud "as good as Osuna looks, bringing in Foulke for the ninth inning does nothing but give the M's new life...I'm nervous about this."

EXACTLY!!! I have no idea why Manual didn't leave Osuna back in. He must not have been watching. Osuna was masterful in the 8th.
Quote from my wife "Stupid...Stupid...Stupid" :angry:

HawkDJ
04-04-2002, 06:03 PM
I wonder what you guys would be saying had Foulke saved the game like he normally does. I don't mind the move, after we lost game 2 people were saying lets just bring in Foulke in the 7th, and now you are disappointed he was in the 9th. Hm....

Anyways it seems that he basically didn't get the ball to bounce the right way. Some soft base hits.

FarmerAndy
04-04-2002, 06:14 PM
Foulke has been on for 2 years now. I think this is a classic case: after a couple of years, hitters around the league have finally figured out how to hit the guy. He only has 2 pitches. It's also possible that he's somehow tipping his pitches, because it seems like hitters are all over him.

RedPinStripes
04-04-2002, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by DaveGusinSeattle


EXACTLY!!! I have no idea why Manual didn't leave Osuna back in. He must not have been watching. Osuna was masterful in the 8th.
Quote from my wife "Stupid...Stupid...Stupid" :angry:

I didn't have a problem with the Move to Foulke. That was expected since he was 41 for 45 or whatever it was last year. If it keeps up, Osuna might be the man soon.

hold2dibber
04-04-2002, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
He is a long way from being even close to one of the best closers in the league...when Rivera, Benitez, Nenn, Hoffman, etc. come in nobody is sh*tting their pants...with Foulke I'm never comfortable.

Bulls**t. I promise you that fans in every city (except maybe the Bronx and San Diego) get just as queasy as we do; all closers blow games some times, and when they do it is heart breaking and you don't forget them. That's why fans in every town constantly bitch about their closers - "So and so is not as good as everybody thinks; I crap my pants every time he comes in." I've heard it a million times from fans all over the place. Look at the stats - they don't lie. Foulke is one of the best. He is not the best, and he is not perfect. But he is very good, better than at least 3/4's of the other closers out there.

RedPinStripes
04-04-2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Bulls**t. I promise you that fans in every city (except maybe the Bronx and San Diego) get just as queasy as we do; all closers blow games some times, and when they do it is heart breaking and you don't forget them. That's why fans in every town constantly bitch about their closers - "So and so is not as good as everybody thinks; I crap my pants every time he comes in." I've heard it a million times from fans all over the place. Look at the stats - they don't lie. Foulke is one of the best. He is not the best, and he is not perfect. But he is very good, better than at least 3/4's of the other closers out there.

Exactly! Bobby Thigpen had 57 saves in 90 and i **** my pants every time he came out of the pen. He sucked after that year, but how much better do you get with 57 saves?

The only closer that i saw that was almost automatic was Dennis Ekersly with Oakland from 89-92. He was unstoppable. He blew very few games and dominated in alomost all his saves.

hold2dibber
04-04-2002, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I'm usually pretty good with words but frankly they fail me right now.

At least the Sox didn't get swept in Seattle (although they should have), but the fact is this pitching staff has allowed 19 runs in three games, they've blown two games where they had the lead in the 7th inning or later, and nearly blew a third one AND IT'S JUST THE FIRST WEEK.

Those of you out there who are "optimists" can't blame this on Tuscon or the elements.

This is a BAD pitching staff. Too many injured guys trying to come back, too many "can't miss kids" with no experience, no reliable left handers out in the pen, and too many guys who pitched well in 2000 and haven't done squat since.

Not a good scenario is it?

And if you are honest you have to ask this question, if this continues how long before the other players, the hitters, start to take sides and you have a divided clubhouse?

Like my late father used to say "you get what you pay for..." and Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams are getting their just desserts. Unfortunately it's the good fans of the Sox who are going to pay the heaviest price.

Lip

Although nothing you say is objectively untrue, you're clearly taking the most pessimistic possible view and applying it to each fact and the result is a very distorted picture. You ignore the fact that the starting pitchers allowed, I believe, 7 earned runs in 18 innings (good for a nifty 3.50 ERA), that 4 of the earned runs came off a guy (Foulke) who consistently posts a sub 2.50 ERA (and thus is likely to pitch a lot better than he did last night).

And most of what you say was true in the second half of 2001 as well -- everyone was hurt, they were relying on guys who were completely untested at the MLB level (but now at least have some experience), they had no decent lefty in the pen, etc., etc. Yet they played at about a .540 clip during that time. And now they have Frank back, Lofton instead of Singleton, Manos healthy, a better bench and pitchers with more experience than they had last year. All that tells me that they should be able to play at least as well as they did in the second half last year -- and a .540 clip over the entire season gives them 88 wins, which, I think, would probably win the Central. A few games does not a season make; such broad generalizations based on 3 games is absurd.

OfficerKarkovice
04-04-2002, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Exactly! Bobby Thigpen had 57 saves in 90 and i **** my pants every time he came out of the pen. He sucked after that year, but how much better do you get with 57 saves?

Exactly...he sucked the next year...thats what I'm saying with guys like Rivera, Benitez, Hoffman...they have had good year after good year and I know for one I would feel a lot more comfortable with one of those guys on the mound in the 9th...that said yes Keith is much better than the majority of the closers out there so we could be worse off.

Mathew
04-04-2002, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


Exactly! Bobby Thigpen had 57 saves in 90 and i **** my pants every time he came out of the pen. He sucked after that year, but how much better do you get with 57 saves?

The only closer that i saw that was almost automatic was Dennis Ekersly with Oakland from 89-92. He was unstoppable. He blew very few games and dominated in alomost all his saves.


Seattle beat Eckersly's(sp) ass in the (92'?) playoffs, no one is untouchable, he was never the same presence, hmmmmm, Mariano Rivera. Side note Johnson Blew the save in the top or the inning and then got the win, his last playoff win of that decade.

Paulwny
04-04-2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes

Exactly! Bobby Thigpen had 57 saves in 90 and i **** my pants every time he came out of the pen. He sucked after that year, but how much better do you get with 57 saves?


There was an article in one of the Chi. papers about Thigpen last year. He claimed that the year he set the record he experienced shoulder pain while touring Japan with the mlb team. He felt this caused his loss of 2-3 mph on his fast ball.
I know we discussed it on this board last year since it coincided with Sirotka's shoulder problem.

ilovemags30
04-04-2002, 08:02 PM
cuz keith.....BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! :angry:

OEO Magglio
04-04-2002, 08:54 PM
Are you joking? Keith Foulke is one of the best closers in the league, he is up there with nenn, and rivera, and percival, and benitez. He blew one game, all closers do, even if it was a 3 run lead. He said before the game that his release point isn't there yet. If you look at his pitches they weren't like normal. Just because he has two pitches means crap, that's why he's a closer, no they haven't figured him out, if that was the case he would have been figured out last year, you guys will see, by next save oppurtunity he will be back to normal.