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LITTLE NELL
07-12-2007, 12:05 PM
Per Tribune thurs 12:00 pm

LITTLE NELL
07-12-2007, 12:06 PM
One g too much. Sorry

Taliesinrk
07-12-2007, 12:07 PM
whoa whoa.. what? didn't see this coming. anyone have any insight into the logic behind this move? pen/rotation etc...

JB98
07-12-2007, 12:11 PM
whoa whoa.. what? didn't see this coming. anyone have any insight into the logic behind this move? pen/rotation etc...

They need another guy to work in relief, who can give them multiple innings. I think this move shows just how little they think of Aardsma.

Among the pitchers, there isn't anyone else who really deserves a look. At least Haeger has been in the big leagues before. He won't be in awe.

cleanwsox
07-12-2007, 12:13 PM
Why not, everybody else has gotten a chance up here.

JB98
07-12-2007, 12:13 PM
As an added note, Haeger has 35 Ks and a 1.82 ERA in his last five starts at Charlotte.

Despite the poor overall numbers, he has been pitching well recently.

Taliesinrk
07-12-2007, 12:17 PM
As an added note, Haeger has 35 Ks and a 1.82 ERA in his last five starts at Charlotte.

Despite the poor overall numbers, he has been pitching well recently.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think the extended stays of guys in our M.L. bullpen that we are supposedly "grooming" for starting roles could hinder their progress??

I mean take BMac and now Masset for example.. I'm just not sure I like it.

thomas35forever
07-12-2007, 12:22 PM
I predict he gives up five earned runs in his next outing. Anyone want an over/under?

upperdeckusc
07-12-2007, 12:25 PM
I predict he gives up five earned runs in his next outing. Anyone want an over/under?

I'll easily take the under. I think he just hit a rough patch in the beginning of the season. The september call-up last yr, plus his outings of late, I think he can succeed. Best care scenario is he does really well out of the pen and either turns into a starter for us next yr if we trade both contreras and garland (i wouldnt mind as long as we get a kings ransom for garland) or we can trade him to another team who thinks highly of him.

HawkDJ
07-12-2007, 12:26 PM
I saw one of Haeger's starts down in Durham back in May. I can't remember who was catching, I think it was Gonzalez, but whoever it was could not catch that knuckleball. That certainly did not help his stats when there would be passed ball after passed ball. It's also hard to get a strike called when the ball isn't caught. That could possibly be part of the reason for his relatively poor numbers early on in AAA.

upperdeckusc
07-12-2007, 12:27 PM
I saw one of Haeger's starts down in Durham back in May. I can't remember who was catching, I think it was Gonzalez, but whoever it was could not catch that knuckleball and that certainly did not help his stats when there would be passed ball after passed ball. It's also hard to get a strike called when the ball isn't caught. That could possibly be part of the reason for his relatively poor numbers early on in AAA.

Andy? Wow, he really CAN do it all.....

thomas35forever
07-12-2007, 12:28 PM
Andy? Wow, he really CAN do it all.....
That would be Wiki, the seasoned guy.

whitesoxfan
07-12-2007, 12:35 PM
The only thing that makes sense about this is that there will be another move coming very shortly.

Foulke You
07-12-2007, 12:36 PM
I'm glad they brought up Haeger. I have a soft spot for the old school knuckleball pitchers. Plus, it may help some of the other bullpen guys too because if you bring in Haeger to pitch the 6th and 7th inning where the hitters are seeing a 68 mph knuckler, guys like Thornton and Bukvich will seem like they are throwing 105mph in the 8th. There is some value to providing different "looks" out of your bullpen.

This is a can't hurt/might help type of call up. Look at the E.R.A.s and inherited runners scored stats for our bullpen. Can Haeger possibly do any worse?

JorgeFabregas
07-12-2007, 12:40 PM
He did well in his brief time in the pen last year. 1.00 WHIP as a reliever.

lostfan
07-12-2007, 12:47 PM
I'm not sure I understand why the Sox would arbitrarily use up an option on Floyd and send him back to AAA after one start when he has no more options. Unless they intend to bring him back to the majors again this year...?

itsnotrequired
07-12-2007, 01:00 PM
I'm not sure I understand why the Sox would arbitrarily use up an option on Floyd and send him back to AAA after one start when he has no more options. Unless they intend to bring him back to the majors again this year...?

Floyd would have likely been on the 40-man roster all season long. Whether he got called up or not, it would have burned his last option.

CLR01
07-12-2007, 01:03 PM
I'm not sure I understand why the Sox would arbitrarily use up an option on Floyd and send him back to AAA after one start when he has no more options. Unless they intend to bring him back to the majors again this year...?]

They didn't use up anything. When he was sent down out of spring training the Sox used up the final option they had on him. That option lasts all year, they can call him up and send him down every 10 days (sooner if it is to replace a player going on the DL) if they wanted to. Come next season he will need to be on the 25 man roster or he will need to pass through waivers.

CLR01
07-12-2007, 01:04 PM
I predict he gives up five earned runs in his next outing. Anyone want an over/under?

I'll go under and 4.

AJ Hellraiser
07-12-2007, 01:09 PM
Just listening to Steve Stone on the Score and he said he doesn't think the Sox will use Haeger out of the bullpen.. he thinks this is a move for him to be in the rotation and he fully expects AT LEAST Contreras to be traded between now and Saturday since his turn in the rotation is Sunday

lostfan
07-12-2007, 01:10 PM
]

They didn't use up anything. When he was sent down out of spring training the Sox used up the final option they had on him. That option lasts all year, they can call him up and send him down every 10 days (sooner if it is to replace a player going on the DL) if they wanted to. Come next season he will need to be on the 25 man roster or he will need to pass through waivers.
I see... I think I just didn't fully know the rule.

Iwritecode
07-12-2007, 01:10 PM
]

They didn't use up anything. When he was sent down out of spring training the Sox used up the final option they had on him. That option lasts all year, they can call him up and send him down every 10 days (sooner if it is to replace a player going on the DL) if they wanted to. Come next season he will need to be on the 25 man roster or he will need to pass through waivers.

I didn't think being sent to the minors during ST used up an option? I thought that had he stayed in the minors all season long this year, that he'd still have one option left come next year?

MUsoxfan
07-12-2007, 01:12 PM
So who's the guy that will be brought up by the end of the weekend after Haeger gets shelled?:cool:

itsnotrequired
07-12-2007, 01:12 PM
]

They didn't use up anything. When he was sent down out of spring training the Sox used up the final option they had on him. That option lasts all year, they can call him up and send him down every 10 days (sooner if it is to replace a player going on the DL) if they wanted to. Come next season he will need to be on the 25 man roster or he will need to pass through waivers.

I thought Floyd was "reassigned", not optioned.

CLR01
07-12-2007, 01:14 PM
I didn't think being sent to the minors during ST used up an option? I thought that had he stayed in the minors all season long this year, that he'd still have one option left come next year?

I thought Floyd was "reassigned", not optioned.

He didn't send the whole year on the 25 man roster. That burns the option.

Flight #24
07-12-2007, 01:15 PM
Just listening to Steve Stone on the Score and he said he doesn't think the Sox will use Haeger out of the bullpen.. he thinks this is a move for him to be in the rotation and he fully expects AT LEAST Contreras to be traded between now and Saturday since his turn in the rotation is Sunday

All I want is that if they are trying one of the rookie SPs that they give him more than 1-2 starts. Commit to ~5 and see what you've got. Let the kid struggle a bit if necessary and see if they can come out of it. Jerking them in & out of the rotation/AAA on a start to start basis cannot be good for development. The season's over anyway.

itsnotrequired
07-12-2007, 01:20 PM
He didn't send the whole year on the 25 man roster. That burns the option.

You don't need to be on the 25 man roster to burn an option.

Chicken Dinner
07-12-2007, 01:25 PM
Well with Garlands last outing, Contreras's inconsistancy, and Massets less than "big league" numbers, someone has to pitch long relief.

CLR01
07-12-2007, 01:26 PM
You don't need to be on the 25 man roster to burn an option.

I never said you did. I said him NOT being on the 25 man roster all year burned the option. Once placed on the 40 man roster a player has 3 option years. Those option years are used up if the player spends anythime on the 40 man roster but not the 25 man roster. If he was on the 25 man roster all season long the option doesn't get used. Once the season started and Floyd was in Charlotte the option was used.

"Options"
After three years as a pro, a player must be protected on a team's 40-man roster, or he is eligible for the Rule 5 draft (more on that later). Once he's served those three years, and assuming he is added to the 40-man roster, his club then has what are called "options" on him.
When a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man Major League roster, he is on "optional assignment." One common misconception about the rules is that a player may only be "optioned out" three times. Actually, each player has three option years, and he can be sent up and down as many times as the club chooses within those three seasons.
When you hear that a player is "out of options," that means he's been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he'll have to clear waivers (more on those below).

itsnotrequired
07-12-2007, 01:31 PM
I never said you did. I said him NOT being on the 25 man roster all year burned the option. Once placed on the 40 man roster a player has 3 option years. Those option years are used up if the player spends anythime on the 40 man roster but not the 25 man roster. If he was on the 25 man roster all season long the option doesn't get used. Once the season started and Floyd was in Charlotte the option was used.

Scenario: Player starts season on 40 man roster but partway through is taken off and sent down to AA. Was an option used?

EDIT: Nevermind, I see he has a pro contract for more than three years.

PorkChopExpress
07-12-2007, 01:34 PM
Just listening to Steve Stone on the Score and he said he doesn't think the Sox will use Haeger out of the bullpen.. he thinks this is a move for him to be in the rotation and he fully expects AT LEAST Contreras to be traded between now and Saturday since his turn in the rotation is Sunday

I was looking at the "Probable Pitchers" link on whitesox.com, and they had Danks listed on both Sunday and Monday, but no Contreras. I thought that might be indicative of some sort of trade, or Contreras going to the DL (:(:).

CLR01
07-12-2007, 01:40 PM
Scenario: Player starts season on 40 man roster but partway through is taken off and sent down to AA. Was an option used?

Yes an option was used was used when the player was sitting in AAA (I am assuming that's where is as as you can't be playing with the big club and not be on the 25 man roster) on the 40 man roster and not on the 25 man roster. Him being taken off the 40 man roster is a whole different ball of yarn and I believe that player would need to be placed on waivers to be removed from the 40 man roster. The actual move of him being removed from the 40 man and sent to AA is irrelevent in your example.

Examples-
Gavin Floyd, starts year on 40 man roster playing in Charlotte, an option is used.

John Danks, Starts year on 40 man roster but also on the Sox 25 man roster. No option used unless he is sent down.

letsgosox1592
07-12-2007, 01:42 PM
I was looking at the "Probable Pitchers" link on whitesox.com, and they had Danks listed on both Saturday and Sunday, but no Contreras. I thought that might be indicative of some sort of trade, or Contreras going to the DL (:(:).

I hope to God that Contreras is either traded or done for the year. I cant stand watching him pitch. From opening day to now he has sucked (once every 4-5 starts hes okay) but I hope that Charlie Haeger starts this weekend and has a great game and he succeeds in the majors. It would be awesome for the Sox to have their own Tim Wakefield. :smile:

letsgosox1592
07-12-2007, 01:44 PM
Examples-
Gavin Floyd, starts year on 40 man roster playing in Charlotte, an option is used.

John Danks, Starts year on 40 man roster but also on the Sox 25 man roster. No option used unless he is sent down.

I am just wondering how many options the players get and you would think that since the Sox traded for Floyd they should get a full amount of options.

itsnotrequired
07-12-2007, 01:46 PM
Yes an option was used was used when the player was sitting in AAA (I am assuming that's where is as as you can't be playing with the big club and not be on the 25 man roster) on the 40 man roster and not on the 25 man roster. Him being taken off the 40 man roster is a whole different ball of yarn and I believe that player would need to be placed on waivers to be removed from the 40 man roster. The actual move of him being removed from the 40 man and sent to AA is irrelevent in your example.

Examples-
Gavin Floyd, starts year on 40 man roster playing in Charlotte, an option is used.

John Danks, Starts year on 40 man roster but also on the Sox 25 man roster. No option used unless he is sent down.

Hence my edit. If he had only been on the scene for a couple years, he could pass between the 40 and 25 seamlessly. But what happens if a player is called up to the 25 man roster with less than two years experience and is then sent down? Would that use an option? Or do options not exist for players with less than three year's experience?

itsnotrequired
07-12-2007, 01:46 PM
I am just wondering how many options the players get and you would think that since the Sox traded for Floyd they should get a full amount of options.

The player has the options, not the team. It doesn't matter how often he is traded.

kidmccarthy
07-12-2007, 01:47 PM
I was looking at the "Probable Pitchers" link on whitesox.com, and they had Danks listed on both Sunday and Monday, but no Contreras. I thought that might be indicative of some sort of trade, or Contreras going to the DL (:(:).

I just saw that as well, and posted the link in the contreras rumors page. I think he is out. More to come soon I'm sure.

infohawk
07-12-2007, 01:55 PM
Just something else to consider. From BP (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6445):
The White Sox (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?team=CHA) have Mark Buehrle (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/buehrma01.php) locked up for the next few years, so now they can start worrying about Jon Garland (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/garlajo01.php). Garland has been dealing with what he calls a knot in his pitching shoulder. He's had the issue since the spring, but until his last outing, Garland's biggest complaint was that it took him longer to warm up. In his last outing, the knot became painful and clearly affected both his mechanics and his results. When a pitcher says that he's "going to have to learn to “live with it or I'm done,” you can take that as a negative, but count me in the camp that thinks that Herm Schneider's staff will figure something out. It's a chance to steal Garland if someone in your fantasy league isn't paying attention.
I didn't know that Garland was having any problems. It doesn't sound too serious, just kind of annoying. Anyway, could the Sox be thinking about using Haeger to shadow Garland during his start tonight in case this "knot" continues to cause him problems? The call-up coincides with Jon's start tonight. The last thing the Sox want it to start the second half seeing Garland shelled and/or straining the bullpen with an early exit. Just throwing this out there.

CLR01
07-12-2007, 01:58 PM
I am just wondering how many options the players get and you would think that since the Sox traded for Floyd they should get a full amount of options.

3 option years, and as nice as it would be no they don't start over. That's why Floyd only had 1 left when we got him.

Hence my edit. If he had only been on the scene for a couple years, he could pass between the 40 and 25 seamlessly. But what happens if a player is called up to the 25 man roster with less than two years experience and is then sent down? Would that use an option? Or do options not exist for players with less than three year's experience?

Anyone on the 40 man roster has reached their option years. It doesn't matter if it is a guy drafted last year or 4 years ago.

Andrew Miller, whom the Tigers Drafted last June, has already burned at least one option, in fact, I think the Tigers may have already burned two of his options. They called him up last August and sent him back down for a few weeks and he started this year in the minors but he was on the 40 man. I could be wrong about that first one last August.

russ99
07-12-2007, 02:08 PM
Just listening to Steve Stone on the Score and he said he doesn't think the Sox will use Haeger out of the bullpen.. he thinks this is a move for him to be in the rotation and he fully expects AT LEAST Contreras to be traded between now and Saturday since his turn in the rotation is Sunday

I noticed that too... strange that the Sox would re-work their rotation and push Contreras that far back beyond his normal turn in the rotation.

Maybe Haeger's insurance in the event Garland either can't go, or can't continue after a few innings tonight.

How hot is going to be in Baltimore today? Get that knuckler a-floatin'...

itsnotrequired
07-12-2007, 02:13 PM
They called him up last August and sent him back down for a few weeks and he started this year in the minors but he was on the 40 man. I could be wrong about that first one last August.

Those are the scenarios I wonder about as well. At least the rules aren't confusing...

CLR01
07-12-2007, 02:18 PM
Those are the scenarios I wonder about as well. At least the rules aren't confusing...

Tell me about it. I believe September is excluded (player is placed up 40 roster and called up, no option is wasted as long as both happen during the month of September). I am leaning toward an option being used last year as well. Where the hell is Oblong when you need him. He might know. Damn kitten fans. :rolleyes:

Flight #24
07-12-2007, 02:27 PM
I noticed that too... strange that the Sox would re-work their rotation and push Contreras that far back beyond his normal turn in the rotation.

Maybe Haeger's insurance in the event Garland either can't go, or can't continue after a few innings tonight.

How hot is going to be in Baltimore today? Get that knuckler a-floatin'...

IIRC they said something to the effect that they wanted him to get a bit extra rest since his velocity was down. I have a hard time seeing him get dealt until he pitches well. Kenny won't give him up for little if he thinks he can rebound, and no one will give up much for him until that happens. All signs would therefore point to him resting, starting Monday, and given good performance, getting dealt soon after.

Haeger's here as insurance for another Garland meltdown or if Jose struggles. Because he can swing from the 'pen to the rotation with ease, he makes perfect sense.

itsnotrequired
07-12-2007, 02:30 PM
Tell me about it. I believe September is excluded (player is placed up 40 roster and called up, no option is wasted as long as both happen during the month of September). I am leaning toward an option being used last year as well. Where the hell is Oblong when you need him. He might know. Damn kitten fans. :rolleyes:

Yes, September callups are excluded.

MCHSoxFan
07-12-2007, 02:30 PM
Why not, everybody else has gotten a chance up here.

Not Heath Phillips! At least not THIS year. I really liked him in ST.

PorkChopExpress
07-12-2007, 02:37 PM
IIRC they said something to the effect that they wanted him to get a bit extra rest since his velocity was down. I have a hard time seeing him get dealt until he pitches well. Kenny won't give him up for little if he thinks he can rebound, and no one will give up much for him until that happens. All signs would therefore point to him resting, starting Monday, and given good performance, getting dealt soon after.

Haeger's here as insurance for another Garland meltdown or if Jose struggles. Because he can swing from the 'pen to the rotation with ease, he makes perfect sense.

"If" is the key word here. The alternative is that Kenny may know he is done and wants to deal him for what he can now before his value drops any more.

wilburaga
07-12-2007, 02:55 PM
Yes, September callups are excluded.

I don't think September callups are excluded per se, it's just that in order for an option year to be burned, the player must be optioned out. In the cases of Haeger, Owens, Logan, Tracey, and Stewart last season, they had already been optioned out that year (out of spring training in all but Logan's case), so the recall had no effect. In the cases of Ryan Sweeney and Josh Fields, their contracts were purchased (placing them, for the first time, on the 40 man) in September, and they were not subsequently optioned last season, so no option was burned for them in 2006.

But I would agree that the September callups are effectively excluded so why am I splitting hairs here?

W

BeeBeeRichard
07-12-2007, 03:00 PM
Andy? Wow, he really CAN do it all.....

Actually, since he would have been giving up multiple passed balls, this would have been more proof that he CAN'T do ANYTHING.

AzureJazzMan
07-12-2007, 03:54 PM
I had a feeling that they would bring up Knuckler Chuck, yea! He brings a different dimension to the pen (as has been stated previously) and SHOULD have been brought up a lot sooner than now. Welcome back to to the show Charlie. Now, pitch like you belong.

GAsoxfan
07-12-2007, 04:00 PM
They need another guy to work in relief, who can give them multiple innings. I think this move shows just how little they think of Aardsma.

Among the pitchers, there isn't anyone else who really deserves a look. At least Haeger has been in the big leagues before. He won't be in awe.

How about Wassermann? He's been absolutely dominating righties in AAA. Since Ozzie likes to play the righty-lefty game, I think he could be used effectively.

JB98
07-12-2007, 04:20 PM
Is it just me, or does anyone else think the extended stays of guys in our M.L. bullpen that we are supposedly "grooming" for starting roles could hinder their progress??

I mean take Fingernails on a blackboard and now Masset for example.. I'm just not sure I like it.

Buehrle and Garland both pitched in the bullpen early in their MLB careers, and they've gone on to be top of the rotation starters.

Many quality starters, including the best in the league (Santana), started out as relievers. If a pitcher is good, he can handle whatever role he is placed in.

JB98
07-12-2007, 04:24 PM
How about Wassermann? He's been absolutely dominating righties in AAA. Since Ozzie likes to play the righty-lefty game, I think he could be used effectively.

I've never seen the guy pitch before in my life. I know he has good numbers, but I have no opinion about how effective he could be in the majors.

RowanDye
07-12-2007, 04:39 PM
I hope to God that Contreras is either traded or done for the year. I cant stand watching him pitch. From opening day to now he has sucked (once every 4-5 starts hes okay) but I hope that Charlie Haeger starts this weekend and has a great game and he succeeds in the majors. It would be awesome for the Sox to have their own Tim Wakefield. :smile:

Has everyone completely given up on Contreras? I don't see anyone sticking up for him. I don't think he's that bad, and I definitely don't want to dump him for nothing.

I already pointed this out elsewhere, but he has more quality starts than Vazquez and is only one win behind our team leaders.

He's been inconsistent for sure, but his stats are mainly hurt by a few big innings. Some people have quoted his stats since the end of the year last year saying that he's washed up, but our whole team has been crap since then. Some of the blame for his low win total falls on him, some of it falls on low run support and defense.

I don't think Contreras should be a part of the future, but for people to say he has no trade value is inaccurate. He's cheap, not a rental player, and has postseason experience. I could easily see him turning it around, winning 8 or 9 games in the second half, and helping a contender in the playoffs.

upperdeckusc
07-12-2007, 04:50 PM
Has everyone completely given up on Contreras? I don't see anyone sticking up for him. I don't think he's that bad, and I definitely don't want to dump him for nothing.

I already pointed this out elsewhere, but he has more quality starts than Vazquez and is only one win behind our team leaders.

He's been inconsistent for sure, but his stats are mainly hurt by a few big innings. Some people have quoted his stats since the end of the year last year saying that he's washed up, but our whole team has been crap since then. Some of the blame for his low win total falls on him, some of it falls on low run support and defense.

I don't think Contreras should be a part of the future, but for people to say he has no trade value is inaccurate. He's cheap, not a rental player, and has postseason experience. I could easily see him turning it around, winning 8 or 9 games in the second half, and helping a contender in the playoffs.

i agree that i think he does have potential value to contenders needing SP'ing. but i think he needs to be traded, preferably for a solid bullpen arm. once the deadline gets closer, teams will realize they need a veteran arm to help their playoff push, and theres not many of those available. i'd rather give javy 11.5 and keep him on the team and trade jose rather than the opposite (trade javy and keep jose).

NoNeckEra
07-12-2007, 05:38 PM
i agree that i think he does have potential value to contenders needing SP'ing. but i think he needs to be traded, preferably for a solid bullpen arm.

Scouts have been looking at us for weeks. Somewhere out there is a scout that has seen something he likes in Jose and will recommend him.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

This is a good thing.

Mohoney
07-12-2007, 06:44 PM
"If" is the key word here. The alternative is that Kenny may know he is done and wants to deal him for what he can now before his value drops any more.

I think the best value to us will be the cash that is reclaimed if he's traded. Whatever throw-in prospects we get is just gravy to me. As long as we trade with the Yankees or Mets, we should be able to get them to eat the rest of the contract.

oeo
07-12-2007, 07:55 PM
They need another guy to work in relief, who can give them multiple innings. I think this move shows just how little they think of Aardsma.

Aardsma needs to learn a breaking pitch that he can consistently get over for a strike before he's brought back up. I don't think they've given up on him...he just has some work to do.

JB98
07-12-2007, 07:57 PM
Aardsma needs to learn a breaking pitch that he can consistently get over for a strike before he's brought back up. I don't think they've given up on him...he just has some work to do.

Well, obviously they haven't given up on him. If they had, they would have just released him. But it's also true they don't have confidence in him to get big-league hitters out right now.

rowand33
07-12-2007, 09:36 PM
Haeger was awesome last september. I look forward to him in the pen/replacing Contreras.

Hopefully he'll be another bright spot in this bleak season.

soxfanreggie
07-12-2007, 10:45 PM
I don't know if I want our "best minor league pitcher" (what I heard was the reason on the radio) to be the "last man in the pen" and possibly a spot starter. How does that help him unless he spot starts? I'm pretty sure that you don't want to take a starter and say, "You will only get innings in mop up duty or when we're down to our last guy."

If you're going to put him in the rotation or give him enough innings to work with, fine. If not, is it worth doing this? Also, how many knucklers have been relievers. I think Charlie Hough was in the pen in the earlier half of his career, but that's all I can think of right now.

On a sidenote, he pitched the first K and win in Marlins history. He was also an absolute horse for games and innings.

cws05champ
07-12-2007, 11:17 PM
I don't know if I want our "best minor league pitcher" (what I heard was the reason on the radio) to be the "last man in the pen" and possibly a spot starter. How does that help him unless he spot starts? I'm pretty sure that you don't want to take a starter and say, "You will only get innings in mop up duty or when we're down to our last guy."

Gio Gonzalez got called up?

cws05champ
07-12-2007, 11:18 PM
Just listening to Steve Stone on the Score and he said he doesn't think the Sox will use Haeger out of the bullpen.. he thinks this is a move for him to be in the rotation and he fully expects AT LEAST Contreras to be traded between now and Saturday since his turn in the rotation is Sunday

Any coincidence Lasting Milledge was called up to the majors as well? Hmmmmmmm....

Nellie_Fox
07-12-2007, 11:39 PM
Any coincidence Lasting Milledge was called up to the majors as well? Hmmmmmmm....Lastings Milledge; mediocre talent with a bad attitude. No thanks.

soxfanreggie
07-13-2007, 12:01 AM
What I put in quotes was what they said on the radio. Supposedly it came from the White Sox.

ZombieRob
07-13-2007, 12:21 AM
Toby Hall should be used to catching a Knuckleballer if this is the case.Didn't the Devil Rays have a Knuckleballer for a year or two? I wanted to say Sparks was there but he wasn't.Wasn't the Pitcher named Shields?

kwkonsl
07-13-2007, 12:23 AM
As an added note, Haeger has 35 Ks and a 1.82 ERA in his last five starts at Charlotte.

Despite the poor overall numbers, he has been pitching well recently.

so was gavin flyod right before they brought him up last week. I think he was something like 6-0 in his last seven started with an era under 2. only time will tell how charlie does but how they do in charlotte is nothing compared to how they will do in the bigs

Nellie_Fox
07-13-2007, 01:02 AM
One thing you need to know about knuckleballers is that they tend to be "all or nothing." When they're on, they're almost un-hittable. When they're not, they get hit often and hard. They are rarely average.

Your release has to be nearly perfect, and the direction and velocity of the wind plays a big part. If you can't take ups and downs, don't watch on the days he pitches.

MRM
07-13-2007, 01:17 AM
whoa whoa.. what? didn't see this coming. anyone have any insight into the logic behind this move? pen/rotation etc...

No one else to try in the pen. He's the very last resort.

MRM
07-13-2007, 01:19 AM
and the direction and velocity of the wind plays a big part.

ROFLMAO...this was a joke, right?

It's not a WIFFLE ball. :D:

MRM
07-13-2007, 01:25 AM
I had a feeling that they would bring up Knuckler Chuck, yea! He brings a different dimension to the pen (as has been stated previously) and SHOULD have been brought up a lot sooner than now. Welcome back to to the show Charlie. Now, pitch like you belong.

A knuckle ball pitcher in the pen is a horrific idea. Simply brain dead. If he's going to the pen it's for long relief and mop up duty only.

ZombieRob
07-13-2007, 01:27 AM
One thing you need to know about knuckleballers is that they tend to be "all or nothing." When they're on, they're almost un-hittable. When they're not, they get hit often and hard. They are rarely average.

Your release has to be nearly perfect, and the direction and velocity of the wind plays a big part. If you can't take ups and downs, don't watch on the days he pitches.
The weird thing is they seem so effective in domes.

Nellie_Fox
07-13-2007, 01:56 AM
ROFLMAO...this was a joke, right?

It's not a WIFFLE ball. :D:MRM, being a jerk as usual. I know that you are an expert on all things baseball, but study up on the knuckleball. The fact that it's thrown with almost no rotation means that the break depends on the air currents acting on the seams. The direction and speed of the wind definitely affects a knuckler.

You really need to stop "rofl"ing at everything you disagree with. Your smug superiority is wearing very thin.

MRM
07-13-2007, 02:18 AM
Lastings Milledge; mediocre talent with a bad attitude. No thanks.

He's a HUGE talent with a bad attitude thank you :D:

MRM
07-13-2007, 02:36 AM
MRM, being a jerk as usual. I know that you are an expert on all things baseball, but study up on the knuckleball. The fact that it's thrown with almost no rotation means that the break depends on the air currents acting on the seams. The direction and speed of the wind definitely affects a knuckler.

You really need to stop "rofl"ing at everything you disagree with. Your smug superiority is wearing very thin.

I ROFL when what you say is silly. And saying that the wind is what makes a knuckler do what it does IS silly. Incredibly silly. And it's not me who needs to "study up" on the subject, obviously. In fact, your claim above shows an incredible IGNORANCE on how the pitch works. You are correct that the stitches on the ball are the reason a knuckle ball moves as it does, but it has NOTHING to do with wind!

Think about this for a second. Tim Wakefield is an absolute STUD when he pitches in a DOME...you know...no wind... I guess it's the air conditioning affecting his pitches, then?

Don't believe me? Look it up!

MUsoxfan
07-13-2007, 02:44 AM
A knuckle ball pitcher in the pen is a horrific idea. Simply brain dead. If he's going to the pen it's for long relief and mop up duty only.

I don't agree with you often, but Haeger is only bad news for this team. He's an erratic knuckler that AJ has proven to have many problems with mound to plate. It's rare for a knuckler to be successful, and I can think of but one that has been. Boston jumped through hoops to get the only guy that can catch him. IMO, he's not a viable pitcher on this staff and the most expendable in the system.

MRM
07-13-2007, 02:53 AM
I don't agree with you often

Many people don't agree with my presentation, but that's ok. I doubt you disagree with my thoughts often, though. You are too knowledgeable a fan to disagree with me overall very often. :D:

AzureJazzMan
07-13-2007, 11:39 AM
A knuckle ball pitcher in the pen is a horrific idea. Simply brain dead. If he's going to the pen it's for long relief and mop up duty only.

Hmmm.... Haeger’s Stats with the Sox in ‘06
ERA: 3.44
SO: 19
in
18.1 IP
WHIP: 1.36

And then there's....
"Because of his success out of the bullpen (http://www.answers.com/topic/bullpen), Wakefield found himself in a frustrating position over the next three seasons (2000 (http://www.answers.com/topic/2000-in-baseball)-2002 (http://www.answers.com/topic/2002-in-baseball)). He was constantly moved from the position of relief pitcher to starter and back again. His versatility was both an asset and a curse. After being moved back into the rotation in late July 2002, Wakefield found his groove once again and has remained in the rotation ever since, making only occasional relief appearances." (ref. http://www.answers.com/topic/tim-wakefield)

So then…Why exactly, is this a “Brain Dead” idea?

Especially with how the rest of the pen has pitched this season. Please explain to me oh wise one…

RowanDye
07-13-2007, 12:11 PM
I ROFL when what you say is silly. And saying that the wind is what makes a knuckler do what it does IS silly. Incredibly silly. And it's not me who needs to "study up" on the subject, obviously. In fact, your claim above shows an incredible IGNORANCE on how the pitch works. You are correct that the stitches on the ball are the reason a knuckle ball moves as it does, but it has NOTHING to do with wind!

Think about this for a second. Tim Wakefield is an absolute STUD when he pitches in a DOME...you know...no wind... I guess it's the air conditioning affecting his pitches, then?

Don't believe me? Look it up!

I don't think he said that the wind is what makes it affective, merely that the wind CAN affect it.

Therefore with no wind to affect it in a dome, you just have to throw the ball correctly.

Outside the pitch is subject to weather conditions.

JB98
07-13-2007, 12:48 PM
so was gavin flyod right before they brought him up last week. I think he was something like 6-0 in his last seven started with an era under 2. only time will tell how charlie does but how they do in charlotte is nothing compared to how they will do in the bigs

Thanks for telling me. I had no idea a player's performance in triple-A is not a 100 percent indicator of how he will perform in the bigs.

palehozenychicty
07-13-2007, 01:08 PM
People on this board incinerate any young player that doesn't set the world on fire from the outset. Give him a chance and let's see what he can do. He can't be any worse than what's up here, and has room for improvement.

soxfan43
07-13-2007, 01:25 PM
Haeger had some shoulder pain bothering him late last year and into this year. He's pitched great lately, so lets give the dude a chance. He can't be any worse that this Dewon Day character.

Nellie_Fox
07-13-2007, 09:46 PM
I ROFL when what you say is silly. And saying that the wind is what makes a knuckler do what it does IS silly. Incredibly silly. And it's not me who needs to "study up" on the subject, obviously. In fact, your claim above shows an incredible IGNORANCE on how the pitch works. You are correct that the stitches on the ball are the reason a knuckle ball moves as it does, but it has NOTHING to do with wind!

Think about this for a second. Tim Wakefield is an absolute STUD when he pitches in a DOME...you know...no wind... I guess it's the air conditioning affecting his pitches, then?

Don't believe me? Look it up!Ever throw a knuckleball? I have.

As has already been posted, I didn't say that the pitch needs wind to work. I said the wind affects it, and it does, significantly. In still air, then it is just the velocity of the pitch causing air to flow across the seams, so the only variable is the release. However, when you are outdoors and the wind is blowing, it changes. If the wind is behind you (blowing toward home plate) it is more likely to "hang" and not break at all, or have a reduced break. If the wind is in your face, it will break more sharply and unpredictably. Cross or quartering winds introduce further unpredictability.