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Frontman
07-10-2007, 02:00 PM
I got a question, and after doing a number of internet searches, I've come up with complete drek.

What happened for Fisk to be released the way he was? He was HoF bound, and the Sox really stuck it to him. What is a falling out with the GM/Manager at the time?



Thanks in advance.

dickallen15
07-10-2007, 02:10 PM
There was no love lost between Fisk, Schueler and Reinsdorf. They made him sign a minor league contract in 2002 and make the team in spring training, and he never did think he was appreciated they way he should be IMO. The fact was though, Fisk was done. They let him hang on to break the record, but did execute a classless release when the Sox hit the road. I think he actually traveled with the team and was informed of his release the next afternoon at the team hotel.

krohnjw
07-10-2007, 02:12 PM
Sounds like he wasn't willing to accept diminished playing time and management wanted him to take that role.

Sources:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CEFDA1138F93AA15755C0A9659582 60&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fF%2f Fisk%2c%20Carlton
(Carlton Fisk) released today by the Chicago White Sox, just six days after the team honored him with a Carlton Fisk Night. Still, the move was long expected because of the 45-year-old Fisk's feud with management over his diminished playing time.

"I know a bunch of fans out there and some people will be upset with me -- but my job here is to win," General Manager Ron Schueler said. "Maybe we were a little bit unfair. He didn't get an opportunity to play on a daily basis . . . But right now I just felt this is the move I had to make."


http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Carlton_Fisk_1947

In the early '90s, Fisk began to yield playing time to Ron Karkovice, a solid defensive catcher who, at age 29, seemed young compared to his 44 year-old mentor. In 1993, Fisk only played 25 games as age finally took hold of him.

Luke
07-10-2007, 02:12 PM
I wasn't aware of anything Fisk did. He broke the record, went to Cleveland with the team, and then got released.

I'm not sure what animosity existed beforehand, but it the results were pretty ugly, and culminated with Fisk not being allowed entrance to the lockerroom before the playoffs in '93.

Fenway
07-10-2007, 02:16 PM
Fisk actually thought he will still better than Ron Karkovice. Then when Karkovice got hurt they gave the starting job to Mike LaValliere.

Fisk from all accounts had become a total PITA to Ron Schueler who was in a no win situation. They did have the wonderful night for him and then 5 days later in Cleveland cut him loose.

It was late June and the White Sox knew the divison could be won and Fisk was just taking up a roster spot. The end was ugly and who knows how spite entered into it.

Madvora
07-10-2007, 02:19 PM
I just found the weirdest Carlton Fisk stat.
He was actually tied for the league lead in triples with 9 in 1972.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1972_t.shtml

Frontman
07-10-2007, 02:21 PM
There was no love lost between Fisk, Schueler and Reinsdorf. They made him sign a minor league contract in 2002 and make the team in spring training, and he never did think he was appreciated they way he should be IMO. The fact was though, Fisk was done. They let him hang on to break the record, but did execute a classless release when the Sox hit the road. I think he actually traveled with the team and was informed of his release the next afternoon at the team hotel.

They really made him sign a minor's contract?

No wonder he went into the HoF with a Red Sox cap on.

Thanks for sharing gang. I was a kid when Fisk was at his best, and didn't follow baseball that closely in the late 80's/early 90's. So this is all new information to me.

Wow.

jdm2662
07-10-2007, 02:24 PM
There was no love lost between Fisk, Schueler and Reinsdorf. They made him sign a minor league contract in 2002 and make the team in spring training, and he never did think he was appreciated they way he should be IMO. The fact was though, Fisk was done. They let him hang on to break the record, but did execute a classless release when the Sox hit the road. I think he actually traveled with the team and was informed of his release the next afternoon at the team hotel.

You can add Gene Lemont as the non-Fisk fans. He was no fan of Fisk and wanted him off the team as well.

And yes, Fisk was done. Watching him play in 1993 was rather painful to watch. He was having a productive season in 1991, but faded down the stretch (he ended up only hitting .241). 1992 he got hurt and had a bad season as well. He also wouldn't admit he was done, and wouldn't accept a backup role.

I certainly agree the Sox brass allowed him to stay on for the record. Cutting him was the right move. However, it was very ignorant to make him go to Cleveland and release him there. He had to say good-bye to the team in the stands and get his own plane ride home. There was a much better way of handling it. The thing is, even if they handled it better, I still think the Sox would've gotten flack for it, and Fisk still would've had issues with management. From a baseball standpoint, it was the right move.

It was amazing that Fisk stayed productive at the catcher position and was able to field it for as long as he had. However, it eventually caught up to him. It happens. However, eventually you got to say I'm done and move on. I don't remember Fisk ever saying it is going to be his last season, etc.

Fenway
07-10-2007, 02:26 PM
Didn't the White Sox forbid him from entering the clubhouse during the 1993 playoffs?

jdm2662
07-10-2007, 02:30 PM
Didn't the White Sox forbid him from entering the clubhouse during the 1993 playoffs?

Both him and Donn Pall were not allowed in the clubhouse. No one knows the real reason, whether it was the Sox or MLB saying they didn't allow it.

Dolanski
07-10-2007, 02:33 PM
No wonder he went into the HoF with a Red Sox cap on.


Players don't have a say in what hat they wear on their plaques. Fisk had better numbers with the Palehose, but had more memorable moments with the Red Sox (Fight with Munson, '75 Homer, etc).

I remember that season vividly and Fisk was done. His bat speed was gone, and he couldn't throw anyone out. It was time for Karkovice to take over. Fisk, unfortunately, didn't see it that way.

Even still, he deserved a better exit than they gave him. They released him on the road, and if I remember correctly, he had to hear it from the media rather than the team. I know Schuler didn't bother to call him and tell him.

And he was denied entry into the locker room in the playoffs which was just insult to injury.

jdm2662
07-10-2007, 02:33 PM
They really made him sign a minor's contract?

No wonder he went into the HoF with a Red Sox cap on.

Thanks for sharing gang. I was a kid when Fisk was at his best, and didn't follow baseball that closely in the late 80's/early 90's. So this is all new information to me.

Wow.

If you saw him play in 1992, you would've understood why. Fisk was no saint by any means. And, I was a Fisk fan growing up. The only thing the Sox brass did wrong as releasing him in the middle of a road trip.

PatK
07-10-2007, 02:36 PM
MLB is strict about who they allow in the locker rooms during the playoffs, and Fish didn't have the proper credentials.

jdm2662
07-10-2007, 02:38 PM
Players don't have a say in what hat they wear on their plaques. Fisk had better numbers with the Palehose, but had more memorable moments with the Red Sox (Fight with Munson, '75 Homer, etc).


Fisk was able the choose. That rule wasn't put into place until a couple of years later.

DumpJerry
07-10-2007, 02:45 PM
Players don't have a say in what hat they wear on their plaques. Fisk had better numbers with the Palehose, but had more memorable moments with the Red Sox (Fight with Munson, '75 Homer, etc).
That is true today, but when Fisk got in, the players were able to say which hat they "wore." The rule was changed, IIRC, because of Fisk. Nowadays the hat of the team where the majority of their career was spent is the one on the plaque. Fisk played more games with us than he did with the Red Sox. Big Frank will have a White Sox hat on his plaque.

I would imagine if a player had some phenomenal years with a team that was not his majority team they might have him wear the minority team's hat. I'm thinking of Sandy Koufax if the Dodgers had traded him before he became unstoppable and was just another pitcher in major league baseball.

jdm2662
07-10-2007, 02:49 PM
That is true today, but when Fisk got in, the players were able to say which hat they "wore." The rule was changed, IIRC, because of Fisk. Nowadays the hat of the team where the majority of their career was spent is the one on the plaque. Fisk played more games with us than he did with the Red Sox. Big Frank will have a White Sox hat on his plaque.

I would imagine if a player had some phenomenal years with a team that was not his majority team they might have him wear the minority team's hat. I'm thinking of Sandy Koufax if the Dodgers had traded him before he became unstoppable and was just another pitcher in major league baseball.

Actually, I thought the rule was changed because some outside deals were being made (i.e. George trying to get Winfield to wear a Yankees hat, Boggs going in as a Devil Ray, etc).

soxfanatlanta
07-10-2007, 02:58 PM
Both him and Donn Pall were not allowed in the clubhouse. No one knows the real reason, whether it was the Sox or MLB saying they didn't allow it.

There is a nice article on WSI that covers this. Don Pall tells of what happened the day Fisk was released, and the playoff snub.

Read Here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2113)

Law11
07-10-2007, 03:03 PM
I havent read through this whole thread but didnt they refuse him in the clubhouse when they won the division...
edit... just read the Donn Pall Article it explains it all there.. Thats just bites..

Kilroy
07-10-2007, 03:07 PM
That is true today, but when Fisk got in, the players were able to say which hat they "wore." The rule was changed, IIRC, because of Fisk.

I thought that was changed because of Wade Boggs and the Devil Rays?

edit: And I see it was mentioned later in the thread.

Fenway
07-10-2007, 03:15 PM
There is a nice article on WSI that covers this. Don Pall tells of what happened the day Fisk was released, and the playoff snub.

Read Here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2113)

:lol:

"I talked to Pudge and he told me he was going to go way out in center field for the rest of the game. I asked him why and he said he was going to sit next to the guy who used to beat on that drum! Pudge said Ďevery time Iíve come in here that guy was beating his drum and it drove me nuts, so tonight Iím going to sit next to him,í and he did. He bought the guy a few beers and had a great time."

http://www.nacs.net/~georgez/NIGHTGAM.JPG

Hokiesox
07-10-2007, 03:30 PM
Does Pall still do financial planning? I've been needing to get one.

TDog
07-10-2007, 03:45 PM
I just found the weirdest Carlton Fisk stat.
He was actually tied for the league lead in triples with 9 in 1972.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1972_t.shtml


That isn't as weird as Ron Santo tying future White Sox teammate but then-rookie Richie (later Dick) Allen for the 1964 NL lead in triples with 13. I don't have a link because I'm going by memory, with which I am confident.

I was at the game in Anaheim when Karkovice was injured in 1993. He was hurt beating out a play at first on a dropped third strike. Fisk had to run for him, and I was excited because I thought Fisk would get more playing time. Even one of my bosses in Arizona had a Carlton Fisk poster hanging in his office.

Fisk lined a single his first time up in the fifth, showing he could still hit, but it didn't take the Angels long to figure out they could steal at will against him.

In the fourth inning in the scoreless game, Luis Polonia walked and immediately stole second. He was immediately driven in by Chad Curtis, who stole second. Later in the inning, Tim Salmon and Chili Davis executed a double steal. The Angels ended up stealing six bases after Fisk came into the game. And the Angels didn't even bat in the ninth. Fisk threw out no one. He didn't come close. The Sox had a pretty good team in 1993, but they still lost 5-4.

The next day at the park, I saw Fisk signing autographs, but I was surprised to see Spanky Lavaliere in the starting lineup. He must have been on the plane moments after Fisk went in to run for Karkovice. Curtis stole second in the seventh inning, but the White Sox won the game 11-6.

FielderJones
07-10-2007, 03:56 PM
That isn't as weird as Ron Santo tying future White Sox teammate but then-rookie Richie (later Dick) Allen for the 1964 NL lead in triples with 13. I don't have a link because I'm going by memory, with which I am confident.

You are correct (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1964/YL_1964.htm), sir.

johnr1note
07-10-2007, 04:05 PM
Carlton Fisk was one of my favorite players. I was in college back when he signed with us, and was an eye witness to many fine moments. But I will never forget the day he was released -- it was the same day my daughter Cassandra was born.

SynchroJet
07-10-2007, 04:20 PM
When Fisk first came to Chicago he lived in the same neighborhood as me right down the street in Pheasant Hollow South subdivision in Homer Township.

Fisk seemed like a nice guy except the time he choked some kid for picking on his son. Course his kids were the bratty spoiled type.

Frontman
07-10-2007, 05:14 PM
Players don't have a say in what hat they wear on their plaques.

I thought that policy was introduced after Wade "I'll auction my services to the highest bidder with the offer of wearing their cap" Boggs tried including it his contract negotiations.

Frontman
07-10-2007, 05:20 PM
When Fisk first came to Chicago he lived in the same neighborhood as me right down the street in Pheasant Hollow South subdivision in Homer Township.

Fisk seemed like a nice guy except the time he choked some kid for picking on his son. Course his kids were the bratty spoiled type.

I do recall one memory of Fisk's son playing against my brother in a peanut league game. My brother was his team's catcher and on a pop up, ripped the mask off and fielded the catch very much like Pudge would, right in front of him. (He was in I think his second year of little league, when most kids don't remember things like taking the mask off. My brother, no matter what position he played over his years of playing, watched MLB players and tried to do what they would do. He even tried stealing bases before the league allowed it for that age group.)

Fisk was talking to my grandfather at the time.

"Wonder where he picked that up?" smiled Fisk.

SOXPHILE
07-10-2007, 05:50 PM
I really think the Sox were in a no win situation. There really wasn't a good way to release him, (although the way the DID do it on the road was totally classless). Fisk was done though. All those saying he couldn't throw anyone out are correct. I was fortunate enough to be at the game against the Rangers in which he broke the record, and they had all the pre-game ceremonies. During the game, even though the Sox won, I think the Rangers stole about 4 or 5 bases against him.

jdm2662
07-10-2007, 05:56 PM
I really think the Sox were in a no win situation. There really wasn't a good way to release him, (although the way the DID do it on the road was totally classless). Fisk was done though. All those saying he couldn't throw anyone out are correct. I was fortunate enough to be at the game against the Rangers in which he broke the record, and they had all the pre-game ceremonies. During the game, even though the Sox won, I think the Rangers stole about 4 or 5 bases against him.

That is my opinion as well. While releasing him on the road was certainly classless, if they released him while there was still a homestand, they still would've looked like the bad guys. I can say I was at his last game. Watching Bo coming out from centerfield on a Harley was one of the coolest things I ever saw (hey, I was 16. but, it was still a cool thing to see). Watching him play that season, growing up a Fisk fan, was down right painful.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2007, 06:01 PM
I agree, Fisk was done but it was a very poor way to let him go, and sending faxes to the media....

In my opinion you do that for a Rodney Bolton...not a Carlton Fisk.

Hokie:

To answer your question, Donn is a vice president at Smith Barney. If you have a million dollars or more to invest, he's the guy to see. He limits his dealings to individuals or companies having that amount (or more) to invest.

Lip

jdm2662
07-10-2007, 06:16 PM
I agree, Fisk was done but it was a very poor way to let him go, and sending faxes to the media....

In my opinion you do that for a Rodney Bolton...not a Carlton Fisk.

Hokie:

To answer your question, Donn is a vice president at Smith Barney. If you have a million dollars or more to invest, he's the guy to see. He limits his dealings to individuals or companies having that amount (or more) to invest.

Lip

Lip,

As I said as well, the way they released them was probably the worst way possible. However, do you honostly think he wouldn't had been bitter at the organization had they say, released him at home and called him in the office per say? He certainly deserved that much respect, but I doubt it would've made much of a difference. He was rather stubborn, and I don't ever remember him even hinting he was going to hang it up, or anything. And, this coming from a Fisk fan. I think the Sox, no matter what, would've lost in this case.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2007, 06:49 PM
Jab:

Can't argue with your post. His feelings towards the new ownership ran deep and came out often on camera during the PBS/Frontline special that aired in April 1993 called 'The Trouble With Baseball..' (I have it on tape.)

Of course JR had some very acerbic comments towards Fisk on camera from that same show.

I don't think it would have changed Fisk's feelings in the least but the media and the fans took genuine offense towards the way the Sox handled the situation and from that standpoint it hurt the organization.

They should have taken the high road, called a press conference and gave the reasons for the decision. Then if Carlton had objections the Sox could have said 'look at the numbers,' (Fisk's performance) and left it at that.

Lip

Daver
07-10-2007, 06:56 PM
Jab:

Can't argue with your post. His feelings towards the new ownership ran deep and came out often on camera during the PBS/Frontline special that aired in April 1993 called 'The Trouble With Baseball..' (I have it on tape.)

Of course JR had some very acerbic comments towards Fisk on camera from that same show.

I don't think it would have changed Fisk's feelings in the least but the media and the fans took genuine offense towards the way the Sox handled the situation and from that standpoint it hurt the organization.

They should have taken the high road, called a press conference and gave the reasons for the decision. Then if Carlton had objections the Sox could have said 'look at the numbers,' (Fisk's performance) and left it at that.

Lip

Or, they could have taken the high road, let him sit on the bench for the remainder of the season, thus avoiding the smearing that took place in the media and the backlash from the fan base.

Frontman
07-10-2007, 07:14 PM
Or, they could have taken the high road, let him sit on the bench for the remainder of the season, thus avoiding the smearing that took place in the media and the backlash from the fan base.

Which one would of been more of an insult? To sit Fisk, a HoF as a AAA catcher caught or to let him go? Personally, I would say let him go, but I would of done it at home (hell, I would of told him prior to "Carlton Fisk" day and let him go out on top.)

goldglovesox
07-10-2007, 07:32 PM
This has nothing to do with Donn Pall actually. But that link with the article on him something caught my eye about the Andy Hawkins no hitter which the Sox won. I know that Leyritz dropped the first fly ball. The author note says Danny Tartabull. But the second one I thought was Jesse Barfield? Am I wrong? I just ask because 1990 was one of my favorite teams. That was one of my favorite Sox moments when we got No-Hit and WON! Does anyone know just want to make sure for my own sake.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2007, 07:35 PM
It was Jesse Barfield.

Lip

LongLiveFisk
07-10-2007, 08:27 PM
I always thought if he got more playing time he would play better and still be able to throw out baserunners. I also thought the reason he would drop balls when a runner tried to steal and couldn't throw anyone out was because for the first time in a long time he felt like he had to prove himself all over again, and he was not responding well to the pressure.

Of course I was probably thinking with my heart and not my head because at the time I didn't want to believe it was really over. Being the huge fan that I am/was, that was hard to swallow. Making it worse for me personally was that he was being forced out because of Ron Karkovice (we're not talking an Ivan Rodriguez here) and I never thought this guy would amount to a hill of beans. No offense to Karko fans, but he was a bust as far as I'm concerned.

eastchicagosoxfan
07-10-2007, 08:29 PM
I remember watching the Carlton Fisk night on TV. There were a lot of speeches that reflected on his illustrious career, but it was clear to me that the brass were telling him the end was at hand. I seem to remember Fisk acknowledging as much in his speech. I even thought the Sox were trying to coax him into calling it quits on the spot. I remember saying to myself, " The guy just won't do it." To me, that would have been the classiest way to go out. I wonder if he still has the Harley Bo rode out to him?

The Dude
07-10-2007, 08:40 PM
There was no love lost between Fisk, Schueler and Reinsdorf. They made him sign a minor league contract in 2002 and make the team in spring training, and he never did think he was appreciated they way he should be IMO. The fact was though, Fisk was done. They let him hang on to break the record, but did execute a classless release when the Sox hit the road. I think he actually traveled with the team and was informed of his release the next afternoon at the team hotel.

So Fisk played 33 seasons? :redneck No wonder I have a poster that calls him The Iron Fisk!:tongue:

BainesHOF
07-10-2007, 10:02 PM
You can add Gene Lemont as the non-Fisk fans. He was no fan of Fisk and wanted him off the team as well.

That was obvious to me. Fisk was still somewhat productive, but Lemont benched him for long stretches so he would lose his timing and look bad when he did play.

Brian26
07-10-2007, 10:14 PM
Making it worse for me personally was that he was being forced out because of Ron Karkovice (we're not talking an Ivan Rodriguez here) and I never thought this guy would amount to a hill of beans. No offense to Karko fans, but he was a bust as far as I'm concerned.

Actually, I think Mike LaValliere had more to do with Fisk's departure than Karkovice.

LaValliere had close to 100 at bats in '93 and hit .258. He was signed before the Sox let Fisk go.

LongLiveFisk
07-10-2007, 10:25 PM
Actually, I think Mike LaValliere had more to do with Fisk's departure than Karkovice.

LaValliere had close to 100 at bats in '93 and hit .258. He was signed before the Sox let Fisk go.

Really? I seem to recall that since Karko was such a high draft choice the team was hell-bent on trying to justify that pick. I also remember Karko being quoted in the newspaper as saying (something along the lines of), "I can't back him up forever." His patience was wearing thin so I got the impression that although they were dumping Fisk for possibly a number of reasons, this was one of them.

Brian26
07-10-2007, 11:23 PM
Really? I seem to recall that since Karko was such a high draft choice the team was hell-bent on trying to justify that pick. I also remember Karko being quoted in the newspaper as saying (something along the lines of), "I can't back him up forever." His patience was wearing thin so I got the impression that although they were dumping Fisk for possibly a number of reasons, this was one of them.

I wasn't implying that LaValliere was being groomed to be the #1 catcher, but I think Schueler was looking at LaValliere being a capable left-handed hitter off the bench as a backup catcher, providing more production than Fisk (who's bat speed had slowed considerably by that point). I'm not sure they could have carried three catchers all season. Fisk had played a little first base, so maybe they could have carried him as a 3rd catcher/backup 1b/leftfielder. :D:

MRM
07-11-2007, 12:50 AM
That is true today, but when Fisk got in, the players were able to say which hat they "wore." The rule was changed, IIRC, because of Fisk.

Not sure why it was changed but Clemens threatened to boycott his own HOF ceremonies if his plaque didn't have him wearing a Yankees cap. The player always gets a say.

Nellie_Fox
07-11-2007, 01:17 AM
Not sure why it was changed but Clemens threatened to boycott his own HOF ceremonies if his plaque didn't have him wearing a Yankees cap. The player always gets a say.
From the Hall of Fame website: The choice of which teamís logo appears on a playerís plaque is the Museum's decision, though we always consider the wishes of an inductee. As a history Museum, it's important that the logo be emblematic of the historical accomplishments of that player's career. A player's election to the Hall of Fame is a career achievement, and as such, every team for whom he played is listed on the plaque; however, the logo selection is based on where that player makes his most indelible mark. I added the emphasis on the last sentence.

Soxfest
07-11-2007, 01:37 AM
Karko sucked in EVERY park but Old Tiger Stadium he always hit a homerun there.

Nellie_Fox
07-11-2007, 02:11 AM
Karko sucked in EVERY park but Old Tiger Stadium he always hit a homerun there.Maybe offensively, but man, did he have a cannon. He spent his best defensive years as Fisk's caddy.

I remember a spring-training game when Vince Coleman was in his prime as a base stealer, and Karko threw him out by so much that his slide was just a formality.

TDog
07-11-2007, 02:45 AM
Karko sucked in EVERY park but Old Tiger Stadium he always hit a homerun there.

When I was beginning my drive home from an Angels game in which Karkovice hit a home run and drove in four of the seven White Sox runs, the Angels announcers referred to him as "that old Angels killer." They actually thought he was clutch against their team.

Dolanski
07-11-2007, 10:35 AM
On a side note, Officer Karkovice now owns a sandwich shop in Florida.

oldcomiskey
07-11-2007, 01:44 PM
Cartlon Fisk was my all time favorite player. That being said, Fisk had...am edge to his personality. He was also 44 at the time and was hitting about .230 IIFC. The way the Sox handled it was wrong, but maybe Fisk instigated it. Like the Buerhle situation you dont really know what was going on behind the scenes, but rather what the paper printed

HomeFish
07-11-2007, 03:57 PM
Fisk seemed like a nice guy except the time he choked some kid for picking on his son.

I bet that kid plays the "Hey, I got choked by Carlton Fisk once" card at dinner parties all the time.

There's probably parts of Chicago and New England where that'd work as a pickup line.

soxinem1
07-11-2007, 04:49 PM
You can add Gene Lemont as the non-Fisk fans. He was no fan of Fisk and wanted him off the team as well.

And yes, Fisk was done. Watching him play in 1993 was rather painful to watch. He was having a productive season in 1991, but faded down the stretch (he ended up only hitting .241). 1992 he got hurt and had a bad season as well. He also wouldn't admit he was done, and wouldn't accept a backup role.

The feeling with Lamont was mutual. Fisk told me so himself on his last trip to MIL as a White Sox in 1993. He was ticked big time about Mike LaVailliere being signed to replace him, and chastized both LaValliere's and LaMont's physical stature (calling Geno a few size-related names while he sat about ten feet away from our table)compared to his own, including the fact they were both about the same age.

Fisk felt that missing the first few months of 1992 did him in, along with the declined contract option the Sox wielded after the 1991 season. There were two sides to his 1991 season.

Fisk went into the last months of the season having a very solid season, but he hit about .150 in Aug or Sept that year, thus the .241 average. His 18HR and 74RBI would still be more than welcome production from an MLB catcher today, so it wasn't like he totally stunk up the place.

Plus, with Torborg no longer managing the team in 1992, one of his biggest boosters was removed.

MRM
07-11-2007, 05:00 PM
From the Hall of Fame website: I added the emphasis on the last sentence.

Oh, I'm well aware of what the written rule is. My point was an HOF player can simply do what Clemens did and threaten to boycott his own induction ceremony if he doesn't get his way. No way the HOF wants to deal with that kind of public relations nightmare, and since where a player made his most indelible impression is subjective it's not something that can be set in stone.

Nellie_Fox
07-11-2007, 05:03 PM
Oh, I'm well aware of what the written rule is. My point was an HOF player can simply do what Clemens did and threaten to boycott his own induction ceremony if he doesn't get his way. No way the HOF wants to deal with that kind of public relations nightmare, and since where a player made his most indelible impression is subjective it's not something that can be set in stone.I hope that the number of MLB players who think like Clemens, that the rules don't apply to him and everyone should go along with his every whim, are few. I think boycotting, or even threatening to boycott, your own HOF induction because you aren't getting your way would be the ultimate in being a spoiled baby.

TomBradley72
07-11-2007, 05:07 PM
A little bit of hijack...but does anyone else think that sometimes the White Sox miss the "overall team chemistry" concept vs. individual parts?

What I mean is:

Yes...Fisk was past his prime...but if we had kept him as our 25th man on the roster would we have had a better team chemistry and been able to tap into his experience in 1993?
Did we really gain anything by dumping Donn Pall at the last minute vs. a solid/hometown guy on the roster?
Did we really gain anything by dumping Mark Johnson for Josh Paul in 2000?
Did we underestimate Rowand and El Duque's contribution to the overall team?
Back in the early 80's, we dumped Koosman after 1983...did we underestimate his contribution to the overall team?These moves almost all made sense from a purely objective/statistical type view...but all seem (in retrospect) to have possibly hurt overall team chemistry and/or morale.

soxinem1
07-11-2007, 05:17 PM
A little bit of hijack...but does anyone else think that sometimes the White Sox miss the "overall team chemistry" concept vs. individual parts?

What I mean is:

Yes...Fisk was past his prime...but if we had kept him as our 25th man on the roster would we have had a better team chemistry and been able to tap into his experience in 1993?
Did we really gain anything by dumping Donn Pall at the last minute vs. a solid/hometown guy on the roster?
Did we really gain anything by dumping Mark Johnson for Josh Paul in 2000?
Did we underestimate Rowand and El Duque's contribution to the overall team?
Back in the early 80's, we dumped Koosman after 1983...did we underestimate his contribution to the overall team?These moves almost all made sense from a purely objective/statistical type view...but all seem (in retrospect) to have possibly hurt overall team chemistry and/or morale.


1. They had Fisk for half the year in 1993, and rarely played him. I think, in light of his feelings for Scheuler, Lamont, and JR, it might have been best that he go, especially since he had no mobility and couldn't throw or hit anymore.

2. Brook Fordyce was actually doing a decent job when he returned from the DL in Y2K, but Paul, who was the third string catcher, was actually sent down for a stretch. Mark Johnson, with a very light bat, was not going to be a regular for the whole season.

3. Lamont was no fan of Donn Pall, he liked Jose DeLeon's stuff better. but they did screw him over, the way it was handled.

4. Yes, and no. Both made their contributions, but both were replaceable, esp. El Duque. He couldn't even talk to most of the team, the only one he may have directly benefitted was Contreras.

5. Also, yes and no. Koos was getting up there, and he did have some rough stretches in 1983. In the playoffs, he was miserable. While he had a good 1984 for PHI, no way was he going to start 30 games for the Sox in 1984, esp. after they got Seaver.

Lip Man 1
07-11-2007, 09:10 PM
Koosman wasn't needed to start games in 1984. He needed to go back to the role he had in 1981 - 1982 with the club, a jack of all trades...do everything guy.

Need an emergency starter? Call Kooz...need five innings of relief work? Call Kooz...need a situational lefty? Call Kooz.

Three sources have publicly talked about the impact of losing Koosman had on the team in 1984.

1. Reinsdorf (in the documentary 'Winning Ugly - 20 years later) and in print.
2. Ron Kittle (WSI Interview)
3. Another player off that club who is the subject of a future WSI Interview.

Lip

Brian26
07-11-2007, 11:18 PM
You can add Gene Lemont as the non-Fisk fans.

It was Gene Lamont. Fisk lived in Lemont for awhile. :D:

alohafri
07-11-2007, 11:38 PM
Didn't the White Sox forbid him from entering the clubhouse during the 1993 playoffs?

It also led to Steve Dahl hiring the #7 and #2 Lotto balls to sit in his club level seats. If I recall, they wouldn't allow the Lotto balls in the park despite the fact that they had legit tickets.

LongLiveFisk
07-12-2007, 12:15 AM
It was Gene Lamont. Fisk lived in Lemont for awhile. :D:

Homer Township/Homer Glen, actually. And now New Lenox, from what I hear.

LongLiveFisk
07-12-2007, 12:17 AM
Lamont was no fan of Donn Pall

I don't think Sleepy Gene liked anyone or anything. (Well, maybe his Lazy-Boy recliner.)

MILTMAY5
07-12-2007, 12:57 AM
Fisk actually thought he will still better than Ron Karkovice. Then when Karkovice got hurt they gave the starting job to Mike LaValliere.

Fisk from all accounts had become a total PITA to Ron Schueler who was in a no win situation. They did have the wonderful night for him and then 5 days later in Cleveland cut him loose.

It was late June and the White Sox knew the divison could be won and Fisk was just taking up a roster spot. The end was ugly and who knows how spite entered into it.I was at that game in Cleveland the night he was released. The gentleman who took my ticket broke the news to me as I entered the ballpark (I was wearing my Fisk jersey). All of the Sox players had a #72 written on the sides of their hats. Ironically, Pudge was spotted in the left field bleachers near the Sox bullpen in his street clothes..the crowd (about 14,000 IIRC)buzzed as word spread.

oldcomiskey
07-12-2007, 11:22 AM
Homer Township/Homer Glen, actually. And now New Lenox, from what I hear.

I always thought it was Lockport

soxfanreggie
07-13-2007, 12:00 AM
I have had interactions with Fisk my whole life (he knew my now-deceased uncle) since I was a little kid, and he was always full of himself. We had season tickets to the Sox...at the retirement ceremony, everything, and I was appalled by the way he treated some fans before the game. However, I had seen him be a jerk to fans on many occassions. While he was a great catcher in his prime, there was no sense playing him when we had better.

I can still remember when I was a little kid (about 3 or 4, one of my earliest memories) and a lot of the Sox used to come to my uncle's house for golfing. I'd be eating breakfast, and they would bring cool stuff. The only one I couldn't even stand then was Fisk. He was the only one who didn't sign the ball they brought me. I asked him if he would finish it off (only guy on the team not to sign), and he wouldn't. He only relented after my uncle asked him if he would.

oldcomiskey
07-13-2007, 10:38 AM
I have had interactions with Fisk my whole life (he knew my now-deceased uncle) since I was a little kid, and he was always full of himself. We had season tickets to the Sox...at the retirement ceremony, everything, and I was appalled by the way he treated some fans before the game. However, I had seen him be a jerk to fans on many occassions. While he was a great catcher in his prime, there was no sense playing him when we had better.

I can still remember when I was a little kid (about 3 or 4, one of my earliest memories) and a lot of the Sox used to come to my uncle's house for golfing. I'd be eating breakfast, and they would bring cool stuff. The only one I couldn't even stand then was Fisk. He was the only one who didn't sign the ball they brought me. I asked him if he would finish it off (only guy on the team not to sign), and he wouldn't. He only relented after my uncle asked him if he would.

Unfortunatley you have arrogant people everywhere, but being since Pudge(I refuse to call Ivan that) was a public person all he owed us was his performance on the field. An autigrapg et al is extra, an extra that should be taken care of, mind you, but an extra nonetheless.

soxinem1
07-13-2007, 11:06 AM
I have had interactions with Fisk my whole life (he knew my now-deceased uncle) since I was a little kid, and he was always full of himself. We had season tickets to the Sox...at the retirement ceremony, everything, and I was appalled by the way he treated some fans before the game. However, I had seen him be a jerk to fans on many occassions. While he was a great catcher in his prime, there was no sense playing him when we had better.

I can still remember when I was a little kid (about 3 or 4, one of my earliest memories) and a lot of the Sox used to come to my uncle's house for golfing. I'd be eating breakfast, and they would bring cool stuff. The only one I couldn't even stand then was Fisk. He was the only one who didn't sign the ball they brought me. I asked him if he would finish it off (only guy on the team not to sign), and he wouldn't. He only relented after my uncle asked him if he would.

I as well had many associations with him, and can tell you, he is one strange bird. He is one guy who could go 4 for 4, get the game-winning hit and be a grouch, then go 0 for 5, hit into two DP's and be your best friend.

In 1990, there was a small kid by the Sox dugout, maybe 8-9 years old, who made a real nice poster for Fisk. The kid didn't even ask him to sign it, he just wanted him to look at it. He totally ignored the kid like he had the plague. One of the most ignorant things I ever witnessed. It was well before game time, and there were not 100 manics screaming for Fisk around the kid either.

I told him later in the bullpen that it was a ****ty thing to do, especially since it was not some obnoxious fools just trying to get his attention.

I heard later from one of the clubhouse guys that he ended up giving the kid a bat of his, but was never able to confirm it.

At the same token, there were times that Fisk could be a rather cordial character, though it was rarely witnessed by fans. It was soon after this incident with the kid that I went to KC. After the sharp critique I put on Carlton I was totally shocked that he sent a round of drinks to my booth one night on that trip.

Again, a very strange fellow indeed.......

I wonder how he and Steve Carlton got along back in 1986 when Lefty was on the Sox for a few months? He was quite a fan un-friendly prick who made Fisk seem like Santa Claus.

oldcomiskey
07-13-2007, 11:14 AM
I as well had many associations with him, and can tell you, he is one strange bird. He is one guy who could go 4 for 4, get the game-winning hit and be a grouch, then go 0 for 5, hit into two DP's and be your best friend.

In 1990, there was a small kid by the Sox dugout, maybe 8-9 years old, who made a real nice poster for Fisk. The kid didn't even ask him to sign it, he just wanted him to look at it. He totally ignored the kid like he had the plague. One of the most ignorant things I ever witnessed. It was well before game time, and there were not 100 manics screaming for Fisk around the kid either.

I told him later in the bullpen that it was a ****ty thing to do, especially since it was not some obnoxious fools just trying to get his attention.

I heard later from one of the clubhouse guys that he ended up giving the kid a bat of his, but was never able to confirm it.

At the same token, there were times that Fisk could be a rather cordial character, though it was rarely witnessed by fans. It was soon after this incident with the kid that I went to KC. After the sharp critique I put on Carlton I was totally shocked that he sent a round of drinks to my booth one night on that trip.

Again, a very strange fellow indeed.......

I wonder how he and Steve Carlton got along back in 1986 when Lefty was on the Sox for a few months? He was quite a fan un-friendly prick who made Fisk seem like Santa Claus.

there are a lot more than those two--George Foster for instance. We cant all be Tom Seaver and Ron Kittle when it comes to the fans. Just ask Albert Belle and even ozzie made some comments about the players not owing the fans anything, but knowing the press, this was probably out of context, or he meant one thing and said another.

Lip Man 1
07-13-2007, 01:01 PM
Old Comiskey:

Ozzie did in fact say EXACTLY that.

However.....

Ozzie said that after fans in Toronto were giving Frank Thomas the business including according to the story, racial insults and he was very upset over it. His point was if you're going to say things like that, 'we' (the players) don't owe you a thing.

Lip

johnr1note
07-13-2007, 05:36 PM
I always thought it was Lockport

Prior to its recent incorporation as a town, the territory that currently makes up Homer Glen was in unincorporated Homer Township, but most folks living there had a Lockport mailing address.

jdm2662
07-13-2007, 06:03 PM
I wonder how he and Steve Carlton got along back in 1986 when Lefty was on the Sox for a few months? He was quite a fan un-friendly prick who made Fisk seem like Santa Claus.

Eddie Einhorn told a story once. Eddie left his office around midnight, but noticed a light still on in the stadium. It ended up being Steve Carlton and Carlton Fisk working out. I would like to think they got along, or at the very least, respected each other.

I was nine in 1986, and had no idea who Steve Carlton was when he came to the Sox. I kept saying how terrible he was. My father kept telling me he was a legend. I had a hard time believing him...

Bill Naharodny
07-13-2007, 06:04 PM
That was obvious to me. Fisk was still somewhat productive, but Lemont benched him for long stretches so he would lose his timing and look bad when he did play.

Apropos of nothing, let me note that Gene Lamont was the first in a line of completely silly White Sox managers, extending through Terry Bevington and Jerry Manuel. These were the kind of guys that, when the camera showed the dugout, you just knew you're team was not going to be brimming with leadership.

soxfanreggie
07-13-2007, 07:56 PM
You're right, players don't have to give the fans autographs, but they should remember where the money ultimately comes from to pay their very large salaries. I can understand not signing for fans when you're eating dinner, hanging out with your family and whatever, but being at the ballpark and not even acknowledging the fans isn't the best way to treat your supporters.

I think back to when my Dad was working for the Reds. Griffey and Larkin would often fake out the fans like they were coming over to sign autos in Spring Training. They would then laugh at the kids who were getting so excited they might get to meet the "superstars". It wasn't like there were 1,000s of fans there to watch them either. I know Griffey has done some great things for fans, but I was apalled at how he treated the fans. I will give credit to players like Jason LaRue and Adam Dunn who were great with the fans.

Brian26
07-14-2007, 03:49 PM
I as well had many associations with him, and can tell you, he is one strange bird. He is one guy who could go 4 for 4, get the game-winning hit and be a grouch, then go 0 for 5, hit into two DP's and be your best friend.

In 1990, there was a small kid by the Sox dugout, maybe 8-9 years old, who made a real nice poster for Fisk. The kid didn't even ask him to sign it, he just wanted him to look at it. He totally ignored the kid like he had the plague. One of the most ignorant things I ever witnessed. It was well before game time, and there were not 100 manics screaming for Fisk around the kid either.

I told him later in the bullpen that it was a ****ty thing to do, especially since it was not some obnoxious fools just trying to get his attention.

I heard later from one of the clubhouse guys that he ended up giving the kid a bat of his, but was never able to confirm it.

At the same token, there were times that Fisk could be a rather cordial character, though it was rarely witnessed by fans. It was soon after this incident with the kid that I went to KC. After the sharp critique I put on Carlton I was totally shocked that he sent a round of drinks to my booth one night on that trip.

Again, a very strange fellow indeed.......

I wonder how he and Steve Carlton got along back in 1986 when Lefty was on the Sox for a few months? He was quite a fan un-friendly prick who made Fisk seem like Santa Claus.

Great stuff....thanks for sharing.

oldcomiskey
07-14-2007, 05:30 PM
Old Comiskey:

Ozzie did in fact say EXACTLY that.

However.....

Ozzie said that after fans in Toronto were giving Frank Thomas the business including according to the story, racial insults and he was very upset over it. His point was if you're going to say things like that, 'we' (the players) don't owe you a thing.

Lip

I figured it was taken out of context. Buy my point is dont blame Fisk because he aint the only one

IlliniSox4Life
07-14-2007, 05:42 PM
This is a pretty interesting thread, I have to thank everyone for all their input. Threads like these are the reason that I come to WSI. One of the best things about baseball is the history of the game, and it's always fascinating to learn some details about who past players/managers/front office people were.

Gregory Pratt
07-15-2007, 12:05 AM
That is true today, but when Fisk got in, the players were able to say which hat they "wore." The rule was changed, IIRC, because of Fisk. Nowadays the hat of the team where the majority of their career was spent is the one on the plaque.

You don't recall correctly. At least, not entirely. As I know it, it's because of Wade Boggs, who whored his plaque out to the Devil Rays in his contract. "We'll give you ____ dollars to wear a Devil Rays hat on your plaque!"

Cooperstown, of course, threw a fit.

Even after that disgraceful display, though, they give first say to the player, who usually makes the right choice, but they've made it clear that they'll step in if it's a questionable one.

Frontman
07-15-2007, 09:51 AM
This is a pretty interesting thread, I have to thank everyone for all their input. Threads like these are the reason that I come to WSI. One of the best things about baseball is the history of the game, and it's always fascinating to learn some details about who past players/managers/front office people were.

I wanted to echo that. Its great to have a site where we can all share history, stories, experiences and build upon the great legacy that is professional baseball.

soxinem1
07-15-2007, 01:39 PM
You don't recall correctly. At least, not entirely. As I know it, it's because of Wade Boggs, who whored his plaque out to the Devil Rays in his contract. "We'll give you ____ dollars to wear a Devil Rays hat on your plaque!"

Cooperstown, of course, threw a fit.

Even after that disgraceful display, though, they give first say to the player, who usually makes the right choice, but they've made it clear that they'll step in if it's a questionable one.

Wow, is he really in the Hall wearing a D-Ray hat? What a jag!!!

Frontman
07-15-2007, 02:32 PM
Wow, is he really in the Hall wearing a D-Ray hat? What a jag!!!

No, I think the Hall nixed it, as his plaque has him with a BoSox hat:

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers/detail.jsp?playerId=111153