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View Full Version : Kenny Williams: Sox in "Buyers Mode"


DickAllen72
07-09-2007, 12:39 AM
Kenny says the Sox are going to be in a "buyers mode" in an effort to make a run. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070708&content_id=2076560&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws&partnered=rss_cws


I know that things have not materialized up to this point of the season, but I don't expect [the players] to give up and I don't expect them to think that I've given up. We're going to keep pushing it. We're going to still go out there and acquire some players that I think will help us make a run. That is in the short term and the long term."


"I hope to be in a buyer's mode, quote unquote, which is pretty atypical for a team that is as far back in the standings as we are, but that's who we are," Williams said. "We have to keep pushing the envelope."

The White Sox are 13 games behind Detroit and 12 games behind Cleveland in the American League Central race, but manager Ozzie Guillen also hopes that the Buehrle signing will show that management has not given up on 2007.
"The White Sox organization is showing people that we are trying and we aren't going to throw the white flag," he said. "Hopefully those guys continue to play for us and keep playing hard and make this thing more fun."

oeo
07-09-2007, 12:41 AM
Kenny says the Sox are going to be in a "buyers mode" in an effort to make a run. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070708&content_id=2076560&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws&partnered=rss_cws

Well...dumping Contreras and Dye will likely make the team better. :tongue:

jabrch
07-09-2007, 12:44 AM
I have to admire his gusty.

It sounds moronic - but he's the boss.

JorgeFabregas
07-09-2007, 12:44 AM
He's been saying this for a while, but I'm not really sure what it means. I don't think anyone thought he was planning on trading for junk. Usually the buyer v. seller distinction has to do with whether you're trading away prospects or trading for prospects--I can see Kenny doing both. I guess we'll see.

chisoxfanatic
07-09-2007, 01:11 AM
Well...dumping Contreras and Dye will likely make the team better. :tongue:
Yes, it will; BUT, the problem is it's looking like they're only losing trade value as time goes by. I was hoping that Contreras was gonna be dealt when the Mets really were expressing interest in him. Now, I don't know if we're gonna be able to get as much for him.

soxfanreggie
07-09-2007, 01:19 AM
This still could be a chance to get some players that could be key for '08. Add another good player and you have more ammo to convince FAs to come aboard.

Soxfanspcu11
07-09-2007, 01:30 AM
I REALLY REALLY like this comment from Kenny!!!

I'm super excited that he has not given up on 2007. IMHO, it would be stupid to give up on 2007 at this point. For God's Sake, half of the season remains!!!

We play Detoilet, Cleveland and Minnesota how many more times?? We are how many games back??

There is still time. Will we be able to get back in it?? The popular answer would be no, but that does not mean that it is the right answer either.

The Sox have a bunch of talent and there is no reason that they can not put a nice run together.

Let's not forget that on August 1st, 2005, the Cleveland Indians were 15 games behind the Sox. And we all know just how close that became.

Well, it's still about a month BEFORE August 1st and there is time to make up ground.

If we can even be about 7-8 games back on August 1st, I will be happy. And I certainly consider that possible.

It is NOT OVER YET! And I really like the idea of GOING FOR IT! That kind of thinking is great and amazing!!!

If the Sox can come back, and get back into this race, which I think they will, we are in for one hell of a September!!!!!

GO GET 'UM WHITE SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:supernana:

SoxSpeed22
07-09-2007, 01:41 AM
It will be interesting to see the moves that Kenny makes over this month.
A lot of people questioned why the Sox traded for Freddy Garcia in 2004, and it worked out pretty well for the Sox in 2005. :smile:

Nellie_Fox
07-09-2007, 02:21 AM
i haven't used this because i think for a time it got so over used on this forum, but this crazy talk from KW merits it
Would you rather he say he's given up on this season? Sure, he should be working toward next year, but they are not necessarily mutally-exclusive concepts.

Jerome
07-09-2007, 02:23 AM
ugh. This season is over. The focus should be 100% on 08. Bring up Fields, BA, Sweeney, Floyd, Owens, whatever other highly rated prospects we have on the cusp of the bigs. I would hate to see Dye not traded because KW thinks at say, 7 or 8 games back that will still have a chance at the deadline.

Whatever, that's still a ways from now. I have a feeling though, that there are no miracles coming from the 07 Sox and that we've seen pretty much what we can expect.

Jerome
07-09-2007, 02:24 AM
Would you rather he say he's given up on this season? Sure, he should be working toward next year, but they are not necessarily mutally-exclusive concepts.

:redface: right after posting it, i realized it was probably not the right thing to say. i hoped no one caught me, darn you mods :D:

IlliniSox4Life
07-09-2007, 03:08 AM
I have no problem with this, assuming that "buyers mode" isn't "rental mode" (and Kenny would be insane to "rent" a player for the rest of the season). If you can get a guy who can come in and possibly help us make a run this year (can't expect anything grand, but you can hope to make the season look a little more respectable), as well as being a part of our future in 08 and possibly beyond, there's no reason not to get him now and let the team work on playing together.

Not only that, it just makes the rest of the seemingly meaningless season more interesting. I like seeing new players.

oeo
07-09-2007, 03:16 AM
ugh. This season is over. The focus should be 100% on 08. Bring up Fields, BA, Sweeney, Floyd, Owens, whatever other highly rated prospects we have on the cusp of the bigs. I would hate to see Dye not traded because KW thinks at say, 7 or 8 games back that will still have a chance at the deadline.

Whatever, that's still a ways from now. I have a feeling though, that there are no miracles coming from the 07 Sox and that we've seen pretty much what we can expect.

Kenny can get guys that can help us now (for the 'run') and in the future. For example, 2/5 of our 2005 starting rotation was built through trades in 2004. If Kenny starts re-tooling now, all of a sudden when the offseason comes around, we don't have as many holes to fill through free agency.

Boondock Saint
07-09-2007, 03:18 AM
I really was hoping that this wouldn't happen. This isn't a team that needs one or two players. We need the better part of an entire bullpen, a new outfield, and a couple of middle infielders. And we still need offense. I really hope that KW thinks twice about this before he decides that this team can contend this year and beyond.

oeo
07-09-2007, 03:20 AM
I really was hoping that this wouldn't happen. This isn't a team that needs one or two players. We need the better part of an entire bullpen, a new outfield, and a couple of middle infielders. And we still need offense. I really hope that KW thinks twice about this before he decides that this team can contend this year and beyond.

God damn people, he's not going to go out and get a bunch of rent-a-players hoping we can turn the season around. There are changes that can be made to this team right now that would both make us better now, and in the future. That's what he's talking about...getting 'championship calibre' players that will make us better in not only 2007, but in 2008 and beyond, as well.

Boondock Saint
07-09-2007, 03:22 AM
Kenny can get guys that can help us now (for the 'run') and in the future. For example, 2/5 of our 2005 starting rotation was built through trades in 2004. If Kenny starts re-tooling now, all of a sudden when the offseason comes around, we don't have as many holes to fill through free agency.

As soon as I made my last post, I read this. I guess it makes sense to fill some holes now to make the offseason easier, but what happens if this team just keeps losing and nobody wants to sign with us in the offseason? We'd be in for another losing season before we can rebuild.

oeo
07-09-2007, 03:26 AM
As soon as I made my last post, I read this. I guess it makes sense to fill some holes now to make the offseason easier, but what happens if this team just keeps losing and nobody wants to sign with us in the offseason? We'd be in for another losing season before we can rebuild.

First, if you're willing to dish out the money, the player doesn't care what kind of team it is (at least most guys). Besides, I know we're having a bad season, but it's pretty evident to me that people are surprised they've played as bad as they have. Torii Hunter said it himself...baseball is a weird game, **** happens.

Secondly, it doesn't necessarily mean we have to sign anyone through free agency (although a couple vets wouldn't hurt, especially in the pen; but if we can get those through trade, why bother with free agency?).
-We have an outfield option in Sweeney, and maybe Anderson if he ever gets his **** together.
-We will have whatever we can get in return for our upcoming free agents.
-We have a surplus of young pitching that's going to have to go somewhere because we only have one rotation spot [Crawford? Rios?(unlikely, but I can dream) Bourn, maybe?].

There are plenty of ways that Kenny can build a team over the next 6 months or so, like he built that 2005 squad.

Boondock Saint
07-09-2007, 03:40 AM
First, if you're willing to dish out the money, the player doesn't care what kind of team it is (at least most guys). Besides, I know we're having a bad season, but it's pretty evident to me that people are surprised they've played as bad as they have. Torii Hunter said it himself...baseball is a weird game, **** happens.

Secondly, it doesn't necessarily mean we have to sign anyone through free agency (although a couple vets wouldn't hurt, especially in the pen).
-We have an outfield option in Sweeney.
-We will have whatever we can get in return for our upcoming free agents.
-We have a surplus of young pitching that's going to have to go somewhere because we only have one rotation spot.

There are plenty of ways that Kenny can build a team over the next 6 months or so, like he built that 2005 squad.

I like your ideas, but I just don't believe that we can turn it around that easily. For one, Reinsdorf doesn't spend big money. Buehrle had to do just about everything except dance for JR/KW to accept a bargain contract. What makes you think that we're going to open the wallet even more in the free agent market? If we do, I'll be the first one to point out that I was wrong, but I don't see that happening.

Secondly, what kind of value do our upcoming free agents have at this point? Can Iguchi or Dye bring in MLB-ready prospects now?

The one thing I see as a positive is the number of young quality pitchers we've got right now. But I don't know if that's enough to help this team. I hope to God that it is, because I don't want to see this team get worse before it gets better.

IlliniSox4Life
07-09-2007, 04:02 AM
I like your ideas, but I just don't believe that we can turn it around that easily. For one, Reinsdorf doesn't spend big money. Buehrle had to do just about everything except dance for JR/KW to accept a bargain contract. What makes you think that we're going to open the wallet even more in the free agent market? If we do, I'll be the first one to point out that I was wrong, but I don't see that happening.
.

We have the fourth highest payroll in MLB, and even though we aren't on the hook for all of it, we are paying most of it. Jerry has spent the money, he just wants to make sure he gets the best deal he can on a player. I don't find anything wrong with that.

Domeshot17
07-09-2007, 06:56 AM
This was my thinking on this talk

A guy Kenny could make a strike for is Otsuka (spelling?) from Texas or Lidge whereas he wouldn't run at Gagne. A guy who can come in, fix the bullpen instantly, but be here in 2008 as well.

Im also guessing Kenny tries to pick up some IF depth, because we could need an entirely new middle IF next year. One thing I wonder, and it all depends on how he comes back, but would any of you give Pablo a look at 2nd full time? He has speed and contact to lead off, and while he isn't great with the glove, he isn't as bad in the IF as he is the OF.

palehozenychicty
07-09-2007, 07:59 AM
This was my thinking on this talk

A guy Kenny could make a strike for is Otsuka (spelling?) from Texas or Lidge whereas he wouldn't run at Gagne. A guy who can come in, fix the bullpen instantly, but be here in 2008 as well.

Im also guessing Kenny tries to pick up some IF depth, because we could need an entirely new middle IF next year. One thing I wonder, and it all depends on how he comes back, but would any of you give Pablo a look at 2nd full time? He has speed and contact to lead off, and while he isn't great with the glove, he isn't as bad in the IF as he is the OF.


Nah. You need a second baseman that can make the plays.

The Dude
07-09-2007, 08:02 AM
For one, Reinsdorf doesn't spend big money.

Give it a ****ing rest. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

The Immigrant
07-09-2007, 09:07 AM
One thing I wonder, and it all depends on how he comes back, but would any of you give Pablo a look at 2nd full time?

Nah, Richar is slated to take over at 2B and will get his chance next year.

Hokiesox
07-09-2007, 09:16 AM
As soon as I made my last post, I read this. I guess it makes sense to fill some holes now to make the offseason easier, but what happens if this team just keeps losing and nobody wants to sign with us in the offseason? We'd be in for another losing season before we can rebuild.

People sign with the Cubs every year. I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

Frater Perdurabo
07-09-2007, 10:18 AM
I'm fine with this, too.

KW's challenge in 2004 was tougher than the challenge he'll face this offseason.

In 2004, KW realized he needed two starting pitchers. Loaiza for Contreras was genius. Garcia was a steal, too (Reed/Morse amounted to zero and & Garcia signed a new deal). This time around, he's already got a 5-man rotation. Contreras is under contract, but if he deals Contreras to fill one of the holes, he's got plenty of quality competition to replace Contreras in 2008 among Floyd, Gio, Broadway, Haeger, Sisco, Egbert, Masset and Russell. Or, he could deal Contreras for another young MLB-ready starting pitcher. In any case, the rotation is fine.

Even after acquiring Garcia and Contreras, KW's still had five holes to fill: leadoff hitter, RF, starting pitcher, bullpen help, 2B, C.

This year, KW already has a catcher. 2B is covered, either by Richar or by re-signing Iguchi.

Assuming nothing else changes, KW only has to find a leadoff hitter, a RF and two relievers. That's three presumed holes compared to six in November 2004. And he has surplus pitching prospects to trade. Piece of cake!

Frater Perdurabo
07-09-2007, 11:09 AM
Upon reflection and deeppink fantastizing, here's KW's agenda:

Contreras to the Mets for Aaron Heilman: Helps bullpen; saves $8M

After a down year, sign Dye to rebound in LF (& DH v. LHP): Neutral

Non-tender Crede; Re-sign Iguchi: Saves $5M

Sign Ichiro: Adds ~$17M

Lineup: Ichiro, Iguchi, Thome (v. RHP only), PK, Dye, AJ, Fields, BA, Uribe
Bench: Hall, Cintron, Mackowiak, Erstad, Ozuna (LF v. LHP)
Rotation: Buehrle, Garland, Vazquez, Danks, Floyd/Gio/Masset/etc.
Pen: Jenks, Heilman, Thornton, MacDougal, Logan, FA/youngster
Payroll increase: ~$4M; Revenue increase: much higher with Ichiro!

sox1970
07-09-2007, 11:46 AM
Or, he could deal Contreras for another young MLB-ready starting pitcher. In any case, the rotation is fine.

Contreras is 9-19 over the last year. He's awful and they won't get anything for him. If they do, it'll be a steal.

Flight #24
07-09-2007, 12:05 PM
Non-tender Crede; Re-sign Iguchi: Saves $5M

I could see it happening, but I hope it doesn't. Assuming Joe recovers, I think it would be a smart use of $5M to let him play, be productive, and deal him for prospects. Ideally it happens towards the end of this season. But even if it's just next year, doing that would get the Sox some additional young talent in exchange for a couple mil (the pro-rated portion of Joe's likely $5M salary prior to dealing him). To me it's the equivalent of buying prospects for a few mil.

Of course, that all assumes that between Hermie, Kenny, Ozzie, etc they think Joe can come back and produce well enough to be desirable to teams in trade.

palehozenychicty
07-09-2007, 12:20 PM
I could see it happening, but I hope it doesn't. Assuming Joe recovers, I think it would be a smart use of $5M to let him play, be productive, and deal him for prospects. Ideally it happens towards the end of this season. But even if it's just next year, doing that would get the Sox some additional young talent in exchange for a couple mil (the pro-rated portion of Joe's likely $5M salary prior to dealing him). To me it's the equivalent of buying prospects for a few mil.

Of course, that all assumes that between Hermie, Kenny, Ozzie, etc they think Joe can come back and produce well enough to be desirable to teams in trade.


Indeed. A team like the Phillies need a strong right-handed bat and glove at third. If he proves to be healthy and productive, they'd be a good match for us again.

Foulke You
07-09-2007, 12:39 PM
I think the first trade KW makes regardless of what player leaves is going to be to bolster that bullpen. Ozzie and Kenny know that this is the biggest problem with the team. When our starters go deep and we can get the game to Jenks, the Sox tend to win ballgames. They need at least 2 "bridge" setup men that you can go to with confidence late in the ballgames. We need to find another '05 Cliff Politte or '03 Damaso Marte. When you are depending on Ryan Bukvich to be your 8th inning guy, you know your bullpen has problems.:(: KW needs to spin Contreras and Dye in a trade for two quality setup men that can help you this year and beyond. I don't envy KW though, building a bullpen is one of the toughest things to do.

JB98
07-09-2007, 12:47 PM
It will be interesting to see the moves that Kenny makes over this month.
A lot of people questioned why the Sox traded for Freddy Garcia in 2004, and it worked out pretty well for the Sox in 2005. :smile:

And Contreras and Everett as well. In 2004, KW added three players midseason that turned out to be key in the 2005 championship run.

Start building the 2008 champions now.

chisoxmike
07-09-2007, 12:50 PM
A lot of people questioned why the Sox traded for Freddy Garcia in 2004

What was there to question about that move?

SoxSpeed22
07-09-2007, 01:00 PM
What was there to question about that move?One of the threads here people were *****ing about 'we traded our best prospect and best catcher for a guy who might not stay past 2004' and so on. If they didn't resign him, it would've been a waste.

jabrch
07-09-2007, 01:00 PM
What was there to question about that move?


We gave up a "can't miss" prospect. Good ole What's-his-name...

Foulke You
07-09-2007, 01:01 PM
What was there to question about that move?
I never questioned bringing Freddy here but I remember there was a lot of Jeremy Reed lovers posting on this site back then. People were very upset that KW "mortaged the future" by trading future hof-er Jeremy Reed as well as our young starting catcher Miguel Olivo.

spiffie
07-09-2007, 01:04 PM
We gave up a "can't miss" prospect. Good ole What's-his-name...
I think it's this guy...

http://www.artistdirect.com/Images/Sources/AMGCOVERS/music/cover200/drh400/h440/h44070vlzib.jpg

jabrch
07-09-2007, 01:07 PM
I think it's this guy...

http://www.artistdirect.com/Images/Sources/AMGCOVERS/music/cover200/drh400/h440/h44070vlzib.jpg

I thought it was this guy
http://www.jodyreedbaseball.com/images/jody_dodger.jpg

The Immigrant
07-09-2007, 01:10 PM
People were very upset that KW "mortaged the future" by trading future hof-er Jeremy Reed as well as our young starting catcher Miguel Olivo.

To be fair, I'd take Olivo back in a heartbeat.

PeoriaSoxFan
07-09-2007, 01:11 PM
I am hoping they can ship Floyd back to the minors, where he will continue his improvement. We then can fool another team into thinking he is actually going to be a good MLB starter someday and dump him before it is too late. But, maybe I am wrong about him. Anyway, I will continue to beat the drum that we are in dire need of quality Outfielders. Terrerro and Gonzalez are not everyday players. This OF has been in disarray for two years now and it is time to fix it.

SoxSpeed22
07-09-2007, 01:11 PM
Flashback. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=35899&highlight=We+got+Garcia)

PeoriaSoxFan
07-09-2007, 01:18 PM
Is there any good link anywhere that would display a history of all Sox trades over the last 5 years or so? It would be interesting to see if we have really given up anyone from our farm system that has amounted to anything in the various trades. I know Young in Az is potentially very good (but batting .233) and Miles is starting for St. Louis. The heralded Jeremy Reed is in the minors. More often than not there is more hype to prospects than substance.

jabrch
07-09-2007, 01:32 PM
Is there any good link anywhere that would display a history of all Sox trades over the last 5 years or so? It would be interesting to see if we have really given up anyone from our farm system that has amounted to anything in the various trades. I know Young in Az is potentially very good (but batting .233) and Miles is starting for St. Louis. The heralded Jeremy Reed is in the minors. More often than not there is more hype to prospects than substance.

I don't believe we have traded away any prospects during KWs tenure who have gone on to make us really regret trading them. His moves don't always work out - but he's made very few disasterous trades when he unloaded what he felt was excess prospects.

He's done that a lot of times - traded away guys who were externally highly regarded prospects. He's yet to be really burned on it. His worst deal was Fogg and Wells for Ritchie. Fogg had 6 years in Pittsburgh, cheap, with an ERA about 5.00. So that's no big loss. Wells has 2 pretty good seasons for Pitt - cheap - and then fell apart. That wasn't a case of trading prospects who became great - it was more a problem that Ritchie was a complete disaster.

Either way - I trust KW's judgement. He's better than most GMs out there at evaluating his organization's talent and trading away guys when he needs to. I'm sure he looked at Young as a guy hitting .277 in AA and AAA and made the decision that this doesn't translate well on the next level. And frankly, I agree with him.

champagne030
07-09-2007, 01:37 PM
I'm sure he looked at Young as a guy hitting .277 in AA and AAA and made the decision that this doesn't translate well on the next level. And frankly, I agree with him.

:rolleyes:

That's what he told you??? Maybe Arizona said any discussion for Javy starts and ends with Young and not Anderson. Nice try though.

chisoxmike
07-09-2007, 01:42 PM
Flashback. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=35899&highlight=We+got+Garcia)

Epic & Disturbing.

y2j2785
07-09-2007, 01:42 PM
One of the only prospects we've given up in the past 5 years that is doing good this year is Royce Ring. He was traded to the Mets in the Roberto Alomar deal. With the Mets he was 0-2 with a 5.60 ERA in 2005 and 0-0 with a 2.13 ERA in 2006. Now he is in San Diego and so far is 1-0 with an 0.84 ERA. Granted he is pitching in San Diego though so take it for what its worth.

Flight #24
07-09-2007, 01:47 PM
I don't believe we have traded away any prospects during KWs tenure who have gone on to make us really regret trading them. His moves don't always work out - but he's made very few disasterous trades when he unloaded what he felt was excess prospects.


Kenny's done a good job at that, to be sure, and he's had some success targeting "under the radar" type prospects from other orgs (although not this past offseason, although it's early).

However, I do think that the general failure of the Sox system might be a factor as well. None of the guys they've traded have done much, but unfortunately for the team, none of the guys they've drafted and kept have done much either. The last in-house guy to end up producing is probably Crede or Rowand (although Fields looks good so far).

On a related note, Buster Olney apparently thinks the best pitcher available on the trade market is Contreras, which is at least a neutral or positive sign depending on your view of him. He's not reporting any news, just giving his opinion on that.

The Immigrant
07-09-2007, 01:55 PM
On a related note, Buster Olney apparently thinks the best pitcher available on the trade market is Contreras, which is at least a neutral or positive sign depending on your view of him. He's not reporting any news, just giving his opinion on that.

Well, there's not a lot of options out there as far as starting pitching is concerned. The reports out of Houston are that the Astros are not ready to concede the division just yet, so it's unlikely that Jennings gets moved. The only other option that would be better than Contreras is probably Matt Morris, and who knows if the Giants will move him.

For an NL team looking for a back of the rotation starter to help get them to the post-season without having to trade away the farm system, Contreras would be a nice option.

Dan Mega
07-09-2007, 02:02 PM
Flashback. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=35899&highlight=We+got+Garcia)

And my favorite post of them all from this thread: link (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=428170&postcount=42)

:rolling:
:rolling:
:rolling:

nsolo
07-09-2007, 02:10 PM
God damn people, he's not going to go out and get a bunch of rent-a-players hoping we can turn the season around. There are changes that can be made to this team right now that would both make us better now, and in the future. That's what he's talking about...getting 'championship calibre' players that will make us better in not only 2007, but in 2008 and beyond, as well.

O.k. I'm onboard, this while eating crow over earlier comments made against KW in other threads. Having admitted this, who do you see as joining the team that would fit your criteria?

chisoxmike
07-09-2007, 03:33 PM
And my favorite post of them all from this thread: link (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=428170&postcount=42)

:rolling:
:rolling:
:rolling:

That was coming from the same guy who A) Predicted the Sox to win the World Series this year, and B) Wanted to fire Ozzie and replace him with Razor Shines in May.

oeo
07-09-2007, 03:36 PM
O.k. I'm onboard, this while eating crow over earlier comments made against KW in other threads. Having admitted this, who do you see as joining the team that would fit your criteria?

Well, I still dream of Carl Crawford roaming left field, but I don't see that happening.

There have been rumors that Kenny is looking at Orlando Hudson, Khalil Greene, Michael Bourne...these are guys that will upgrade us this year, and are also under contract for next year (unlike Uribe, Iguchi, Pods, etc.).

Nellie_Fox
07-09-2007, 03:37 PM
That was coming from the same guy who A) Predicted the Sox to win the World Series this year, and B) Wanted to fire Ozzie and replace him with Razor Shines in May.And C) knew more about baseball than everyone else on here put together, and was happy to tell you so.

I'm sure it's Ozzie's fault that Reed isn't a star.

oeo
07-09-2007, 03:41 PM
And C) knew more about baseball than everyone else on here put together, and was happy to tell you so.

That's because he played minor league baseball! Geesh, get in the game.

PatK
07-09-2007, 04:04 PM
Wow, reading that Freddy thread was great for some laughs.

spiffie
07-09-2007, 04:11 PM
That's because he played minor league baseball! Geesh, get in the game.
In JAPAN no less.

I figured he was banned because he had taken a job as KW's special assistant, and it would have been a conflict for him to keep posting here. Guess not.

Foulke You
07-09-2007, 05:08 PM
Wow, reading that Freddy thread was great for some laughs.
It sure was! I had forgotten how many people were against the deal. For the record, I'm still happy with my comments except for the part about feeling even better about our rotation when Schoeneweis gets healthy.:tongue: In my defense though, I think Scott pitched fairly well that year before he got hurt but it's still Schoeneweis!

Did you also notice the staggering amount of people on that thread are now banned? After reading some of the freakish responses, I can't imagine why.:cool:

greenpeach
07-09-2007, 05:20 PM
It will be interesting to see the moves that Kenny makes over this month.
A lot of people questioned why the Sox traded for Freddy Garcia in 2004, and it worked out pretty well for the Sox in 2005. :smile:

I still miss Miguel Olivo !! :D:

1917
07-10-2007, 09:44 AM
If Kenny Williams makes any moves this year, it will be to better our team in 2008, similar to the Loiza for Contrearas move in 2004. Reality is we are 13 games back with 2 of the hottest teams in the AL in our division, we would need a miracle to make the post season this year, even if we got a player like Carl Crawford, we have too many broken peices this year to make a legit run at the post season. I think any move will be for a solid player signed thru 2008/2009.

Frontman
07-10-2007, 10:02 AM
God damn people, he's not going to go out and get a bunch of rent-a-players hoping we can turn the season around. There are changes that can be made to this team right now that would both make us better now, and in the future. That's what he's talking about...getting 'championship calibre' players that will make us better in not only 2007, but in 2008 and beyond, as well.

Exactly. Now hearing KW's comments yesterday, I understand more of his philosophy. It sounds like he was hoping to get 2 MLB ready players for Burly-mon, and when noone was willing to give up that much, he decided to keep his MLB ready pitcher and switch focus to another area of work.

The team needs to upgrade at many positions, but he doesn't need to do it all in one week. Yes, they can "make a run" at this season, as we have a lot of in-divison games left. But he also doesn't see the need to "go young" and build to win for 2009/10, he can start this season and get the Sox in position to be a contender next season.

Lukin13
07-10-2007, 10:07 AM
The past two seasons Kenny has claimed the asking price for rent-a-players he was targeting was "way too high".

You would think that this year couldn't be that different; so you would have to expect him to sell right??

I just hope we don't GIVE Contreras away; yes, he is obviously struggling w/ his velocity among other things this season. BUT he is only a year removed from flat out dominance AND his contract for next season is fairly reasonable.... even if you are only taking a flyer on him.

Certain teams are ahem paying over $10mil per for 4 years just for a guy that can get you 200 innings.

---------------------

I kind like the idea of adding Greene at short, the dude has 25+ HR power in San Diego; that should conservatively translate to 30 at the Cell. BUT IF KW ADDS GREENE IT WILL BECOME 100% OBVIOUS THE KIND OF PLAYER HE TARGETS. KW will officially become the anti-moneyball GM. Greene is yet another free swinging low OBP hacker and he will easily fit in with that MO on the southside. If Greene does wind up on the Sox I will no longer blame Greg Walker for the approach virtually the entire team takes at the plate... it will be KW who is to blame.

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2007, 10:22 AM
I just hope we don't GIVE Contreras away; yes, he is obviously struggling w/ his velocity among other things this season. BUT he is only a year removed from flat out dominance AND his contract for next season is fairly reasonable.... even if you are only taking a flyer on him.

Certain teams are ahem paying over $10mil per for 4 years just for a guy that can get you 200 innings.

I'd Contreras to the Mets for set-up man Aaron Heilman. The deal seems one-sided, but because Heilman is so inexpensive, it would free up cash to make a free agent splash - Ichiro. It also gives the Sox a great RH reliever. FWIW, I have a hunch MacDougal performs well in 08; he'll be due for a good year. A pen with Jenks, Thornton, Heilman, MacDougal, Logan (plus long relief) should succeed.

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2007, 10:23 AM
I still miss Miguel Olivo !! :D:

I wouldn't undo the Garcia trade, but it would be good to have Olivo as a backup to AJ.

jabrch
07-10-2007, 10:29 AM
I wouldn't undo the Garcia trade, but it would be good to have Olivo as a backup to AJ.

When healthy, Hall is a great backup to AJ.

Frontman
07-10-2007, 11:06 AM
The past two seasons Kenny has claimed the asking price for rent-a-players he was targeting was "way too high".

You would think that this year couldn't be that different; so you would have to expect him to sell right??

I just hope we don't GIVE Contreras away; yes, he is obviously struggling w/ his velocity among other things this season. BUT he is only a year removed from flat out dominance AND his contract for next season is fairly reasonable.... even if you are only taking a flyer on him.


Thing of it is that Contreras' long win streak last year was some great pitching by him, other times the team picked him up or his games went No Decision. Far different than a long win streak that he always shut them out/kept them to only 1 or 2 runs.

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2007, 11:25 AM
When healthy, Hall is a great backup to AJ.

I have no problem with Hall. None at all. :smile:

jabrch
07-10-2007, 11:44 AM
I have no problem with Hall. None at all. :smile:

I liked Olivo's "energy" and even at the time he was the part of the Freddy trade that I regretted. But that regret was based on his potential which is, to date, unrealized. Miguel is hitting .247/.267/.394 this year after going .263/.287/.440 last year.

In hindsight, Kenny gave up absolutely nothing to get Freddy. Reed is a complete bust so far. Miguel has not developed into anything of value - no better than any other C you can get for the league minimum. The best of the bunch might be Mike Morse - who hit well last year before tearing cartlidge in his knee. (Where is Morse these days anyhow?)

Anyhow - I think everyone wanted Miguel to do well. I just don't see it happening for him.

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2007, 12:19 PM
I liked Olivo's "energy" and even at the time he was the part of the Freddy trade that I regretted. But that regret was based on his potential which is, to date, unrealized. Miguel is hitting .247/.267/.394 this year after going .263/.287/.440 last year.

In hindsight, Kenny gave up absolutely nothing to get Freddy. Reed is a complete bust so far. Miguel has not developed into anything of value - no better than any other C you can get for the league minimum. The best of the bunch might be Mike Morse - who hit well last year before tearing cartlidge in his knee. (Where is Morse these days anyhow?)

Anyhow - I think everyone wanted Miguel to do well. I just don't see it happening for him.

Hey, you don't have to sell me again on the Garcia deal. I completely agree that the trade was a masterstroke.

In the interests of full disclosure, my very first reaction to hearing the news was outrage. In my defense, I was concerned about Garcia being a flyball pitcher coming to "Coors East," and had been lead to believe that Olivo and Reed would be playing C and OF for the Sox for the next decade. At that time, KW also had a very mixed track record trading for starting pitchers - Colon was great but Todd Ritchie was terrible and David Wells ate too many cheesburgers and got hurt. Later that day, I cooled off and decided to withhold judgment pending results. After the Sox signed Garcia to a new (and relatively inexpensive) contract, and once Garcia started to win games with a decent ERA, I was OK with the trade.

As long as we're looking back, I think that if Maggs and Frank didn't get hurt, the Sox would have made a deep October run in 2004.

soxinem1
07-10-2007, 12:35 PM
The Sox were in a similar situation in 2003 and made two major pickups for the second half then, though they were on the hook for little in extra salary, they didn't throw in the towel.

Even though the 2007 situation is a little more terminal, why would he announce he's cashing it in when the team is fifth in attendance? The fans are still coming out, and if they want to add any quality players for 2008, they need the revenue, especially with Buerhle re-signed. That revenue is gone if they pull a White Flag II.

A couple tweaks here and there are probably the most we will see, in all reality. But I think Contreras and Dye are likely to get dumped, and the deals will be branded 'for the future'.

kittle42
07-10-2007, 01:36 PM
A couple tweaks here and there are probably the most we will see, in all reality. But I think Contreras and Dye are likely to get dumped, and the deals will be branded 'for the future'.

I agree. What Williams really needs is for Contreras to have two solid-to-great starts, and Dye to hit like 3-4 homers in a week, and dump 'em both immediately.

soxrme
07-10-2007, 02:14 PM
I liked Olivo's "energy" and even at the time he was the part of the Freddy trade that I regretted. But that regret was based on his potential which is, to date, unrealized. Miguel is hitting .247/.267/.394 this year after going .263/.287/.440 last year.

In hindsight, Kenny gave up absolutely nothing to get Freddy. Reed is a complete bust so far. Miguel has not developed into anything of value - no better than any other C you can get for the league minimum. The best of the bunch might be Mike Morse - who hit well last year before tearing cartlidge in his knee. (Where is Morse these days anyhow?)

Anyhow - I think everyone wanted Miguel to do well. I just don't see it happening for him.
He also gave Freddy up for absolutely nothing.

SOXandILLINI
07-10-2007, 02:46 PM
And C) knew more about baseball than everyone else on here put together, and was happy to tell you so.

I'm sure it's Ozzie's fault that Reed isn't a star.

I thought that honor belonged to me?... :angry:

Luke
07-10-2007, 03:01 PM
I liked Olivo's "energy" and even at the time he was the part of the Freddy trade that I regretted. But that regret was based on his potential which is, to date, unrealized. Miguel is hitting .247/.267/.394 this year after going .263/.287/.440 last year.

In hindsight, Kenny gave up absolutely nothing to get Freddy. Reed is a complete bust so far. Miguel has not developed into anything of value - no better than any other C you can get for the league minimum. The best of the bunch might be Mike Morse - who hit well last year before tearing cartlidge in his knee. (Where is Morse these days anyhow?)

Anyhow - I think everyone wanted Miguel to do well. I just don't see it happening for him.

A while back I heard a totally unsubstantiated rumor that Olivo was a major reason the Colon didn't resign. Colon hated his pitch calling, and their personalities completely clashed. Anyone ever hear anything like this, or was I fed a line?

thomas35forever
07-10-2007, 03:10 PM
He also gave Freddy up for absolutely nothing.
It's a trade that so far, hasn't worked out for either side. Ditto for the Cotts deal.

MsSoxVixen22
07-10-2007, 04:02 PM
I wouldn't undo the Garcia trade, but it would be good to have Olivo as a backup to AJ.


Hell yeah! I thought I heard about someone breaking their jaw, running into Olivo not too long ago!

Hitmen77
07-10-2007, 09:05 PM
He also gave Freddy up for absolutely nothing.

:?:

Did I miss something? Did the Sox release Floyd and Gio? For all we know, you may ultimately be right and both of these guys will be busts - but I'm not ready to say that yet.

NoNeckEra
07-10-2007, 09:55 PM
I'd Contreras to the Mets for set-up man Aaron Heilman. The deal seems one-sided, but because Heilman is so inexpensive, it would free up cash to make a free agent splash - Ichiro.
1) The more I think about it, as diminished as Contreras's skills are at this point, someone out there will take him on and give you some quality in return.
2) Ken Rosenthal of Fox just mentioned on the All-Star game telecast that it's almost a sure thing that Ichiro will re-sign with the M's.
3) Payroll is going to take a bit of a hit next year due to season ticket defections. So we're not going to be in the market for anything expensive.

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2007, 10:02 PM
1) The more I think about it, as diminished as Contreras's skills are at this point, someone out there will take him on and give you some quality in return.
2) Ken Rosenthal of Fox just mentioned on the All-Star game telecast that it's almost a sure thing that Ichiro will re-sign with the M's.
3) Payroll is going to take a bit of a hit next year due to season ticket defections. So we're not going to be in the market for anything expensive.

I made my post before I read the news that Ichiro was on the verge of re-sining with Seattle.

What the Sox need more than anything is a leadoff hitter. I don't care if he plays LF, RF, CF, SS or 2B; the Sox definitely could accommodate a leadoff hitter who plays any of those positions.

champagne030
07-10-2007, 10:42 PM
1) The more I think about it, as diminished as Contreras's skills are at this point, someone out there will take him on and give you some quality in return.
2) Ken Rosenthal of Fox just mentioned on the All-Star game telecast that it's almost a sure thing that Ichiro will re-sign with the M's.
3) Payroll is going to take a bit of a hit next year due to season ticket defections. So we're not going to be in the market for anything expensive.

That's offset by the increases that Extra Innings brings to each club. $22M and $20M pre-tax profits for the Sox the last two seasons. They have plenty in the bank to increase payroll. And Jerry only has a few years left. He made his money on a 'pool' investment of $20M that is now worth almost $400M. Does he really want to go out because he doesn't want to spend another $5-$10M. I don't think so, but maybe he does.

RowanDye
07-10-2007, 10:57 PM
I made my post before I read the news that Ichiro was on the verge of re-sining with Seattle.

What the Sox need more than anything is a leadoff hitter. I don't care if he plays LF, RF, CF, SS or 2B; the Sox definitely could accommodate a leadoff hitter who plays any of those positions.

Too bad we can't just pull a Ryan Theriot out of our ass. Unfortunately, there are just very few prototypical leadoff hitters around. Your elite guys right now are Sizemore, Ichiro, Reyes, Rollins. Damon is ageing. Soriano really doesn't get on base as much as you'd like. Hanley Ramirez is good. Ryan Freel does a good job. Brian Roberts is having a good year. The majority of teams don't have one of these guys.

Barring a trade, the best we're going to do next year is to either sign David Eckstein or hope that someone within the organization (Pods/Gonzalez/Richar?) can step it up.

santo=dorf
07-10-2007, 11:04 PM
Too bad we can't just pull a Ryan Theriot out of our ass. Unfortunately, there are just very few prototypical leadoff hitters around. Your elite guys right now are Sizemore, Ichiro, Reyes, Rollins. Damon is ageing. Soriano really doesn't get on base as much as you'd like. Hanley Ramirez is good. Ryan Freel does a good job. Brian Roberts is having a good year. The majority of teams don't have one of these guys.

Barring a trade, the best we're going to do next year is to either sign David Eckstein or hope that someone within the organization (Pods/Gonzalez/Richar?) can step it up.
What's so good about Ryan Theriot right now?

He's a 27 year old minor leaguer who is currently sporting a line of .276/.338/.354. Those are essentially Erstad's numbers + a good week of play.

Rollins is overrated too. Look at his OBP.

RowanDye
07-10-2007, 11:25 PM
What's so good about Ryan Theriot right now?

He's a 27 year old minor leaguer who is currently sporting a line of .276/.338/.354. Those are essentially Erstad's numbers + a good week of play.

Rollins is overrated too. Look at his OBP.

Oops sorry, I meant Fontenot. He's doesn't really have leadoff speed, but I just meant too bad we can't just get lucky with someone like that.

Anyways, if you discount Rollins it just further proves my point that good leadoff hitters are a rare breed.

A. Cavatica
07-10-2007, 11:33 PM
Where was "buyers mode" a month ago when it might have made a difference? :?:

Flight #24
07-10-2007, 11:38 PM
Where was "buyers mode" a month ago when it might have made a difference? :?:

Who the hell was "selling" a month ago? There wasn't really anyone to be had unless you wnted Jacque Jones or Carl Pavano.

CLR01
07-10-2007, 11:48 PM
Where was "buyers mode" a month ago when it might have made a difference? :?:

Buying a month ago wouldn't have made an ounce of difference unless Kenny was planning on buying a new bullpen and most of a starting lineup or you consider losing 6-2 an improvement over losing 6-1.

Lip Man 1
07-11-2007, 01:25 PM
Kenny had an interesting comment on this in the Tribune today:

"I think the common assumption is always that if you are in a position, such as we are in the standings, that you have to trade your veteran players for prospect-type players," Williams said last Sunday. "I, like anyone else, understand the value of prospects.

"But if you expect to contend and win a championship, you can have only so many of those players on the field at one time. So we're going to approach this as though any move we make will improve us in the short term, yet give us a chance to get back to championship level play in the long term."

Lip

Iguana775
07-11-2007, 01:28 PM
Kenny says the Sox are going to be in a "buyers mode" in an effort to make a run. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070708&content_id=2076560&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws&partnered=rss_cws



Maybe he meant to say that in teal?

Gammons Peter
07-11-2007, 01:32 PM
Jerry only has a few years left. He made his money on a 'pool' investment of $20M that is now worth almost $400M. Does he really want to go out because he doesn't want to spend another $5-$10M. I don't think so, but maybe he does.

Jerry is only a minority owner

Lip Man 1
07-11-2007, 01:41 PM
Peter:

It is written in the terms of his contract that JR has the day to day control of the franchise, even though he 'only' owns about 9%. That is still greater then any other owner which is why he calls the shots.

It is also in his deal that he can do what he wishes without asking for or receiving approval for the other investors.

Lip

SBSoxFan
07-11-2007, 01:44 PM
Kenny had an interesting comment on this in the Tribune today:

"I think the common assumption is always that if you are in a position, such as we are in the standings, that you have to trade your veteran players for prospect-type players," Williams said last Sunday. "I, like anyone else, understand the value of prospects.

"But if you expect to contend and win a championship, you can have only so many of those players on the field at one time. So we're going to approach this as though any move we make will improve us in the short term, yet give us a chance to get back to championship level play in the long term."

Lip

People who interpreted KW's comments (and there seem to be a lot of them) as going out to get rent-a-veterans to make a run for the second half this season either just got to Chicago or haven't been paying attention. We saw it with the Garcia and Contreras deals. I expect we'll see something similar the rest of this season. The whole buyer/seller thing may be a matter of semantics/spin.