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NorbertoMartin
07-08-2007, 02:38 PM
Why Buehrle Should Be Traded:


After sifting through this message board for the past several weeks during the course of the Buehrle saga and thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion that Buehrle needs to be traded, unless he accepts the supposed limited no-trade clause.

Let me preface this post by saying that even though Iím new to the board, Iíve been a sox fan since 1990, been a supporter through the good and the bad, and Buehrle is clearly my favorite Wsox pitcher ever.

That being said, and although this is a minority viewpoint, Iím trying to not let emotion blur the stark realities facing this team for 2007 and more importantly, 2008 and beyond.

My first point of contention. Let me point out the obvious, which everyone will agree with: This team is in trouble for 2007. Agreed? OK, good. Itís been a precipitous decline and everyone appears to be baffled as to why it happened so fast. While, I didnít think we would barely be out of the cellar, just ahead of the lowly Royals, I had plenty of concerns coming into the season, irrespective of the fact that the central is the toughest division in baseball to begin with.

In hindsight, some of the roster moves (or non-moves) prior to the winter just havenít worked out. Extending Pods has turned out to be a disaster, Erstad was a horrible decision to sign in the first place, the bullpen hasnít lived up to what we hoped they would be, Credeís back has become a problem and thereís no clear answer whether he will be back, Dye got old quick, the middle IF got off to a slow start and havenít lived up to prior yearsí performances.

I donít want to lay blame on management or on individual players, but my point is that even though we didnít see the team performing so poorly, the fact remains that they are not good. Thereís no mystery about it, injuries combined with free swinging hitters, and a bad bullpen have led to the teamís demise.


Second point of contention: As a majority of the roster stands right now, This team is in trouble for 2008 and beyond. Agreed? Maybe some of you will not agree. So, what are we to do about it? Coming to grips with reality is a good starting point. This team isnít at the point where retooling is the proper characterization of what needs to happen. That was last winterís approach. Due to the age of the team, obvious injury factors, and decline in performance, this team needs to undergo somewhere between major retooling and rebuilding. We donít know whether Crede will ever return to form, Pods and Erstad are probably gone, middle infield could use upgrading, bullpen is dead with the exception of Jenks and maybe Thornton. So how should we go about fixing the glaring problems? Trade who has value NOW in hopes of contending in 2009. Who has value now? Starting pitching and Dye. In my opinion, whatever upgrades/changes are made to this team between now and next season, thereís STILL little to no chance of us making the playoffs next year in this division. To me, that is the crucial point that leads into the NTC issue.

Here is why Buehrle canít have a full no trade: Assuming he pitches his heart out and is a bona fide #1 in 2008, what good will it do? Thereís no way this team will compete in the central with an at best a mediocre team with presumably unfilled holes. Furthermore, what if the team isnít up to snuff in 2009, are we to be handcuffed by his no trade? He wouldnít waive the clause, nor should he because he loves Chicago and his family would be entrenched. Even 14 million would be a burden to a team that wouldnít be competitive and prevent KW from improving other positions. Keep him, because we love him so much to the detriment of filling other needs? I donít think so. This has nothing to do KWís ego. Itís purely whatís in the best interests of the team. They have to fix whatís broken. We arguably need changes at every ďevery-dayĒ position with the exception of 1B (Konerko), 3B(Crede/Fields), C(AJ). Itís a mess of a roster the likes of which we havenít seen in a few years and requires difficult decisions. Part of the problem is that expectations were so high prior to the season and now is the time where we all have to reevalute what we have become.


This isnít a doomsday opinion, I think itís a reality. Iím thinking that we should consider ourselves fortunate if the team can battle for a division title in 2009 by freeing up salary and filling other holes via trade, but even that may be a stretch. Tribe, Detroit, and Minny are going to be as good as theyíve been for the next two years, therefore, in order to get back in the race by 2009, Buehrle needs to be traded now to free up salary and get potential major league ready players who will be here after next season. I wouldnít be surprised (or against) Jenks being traded as well.

102605
07-08-2007, 02:40 PM
Umm. This team would be in alot better position in 2008 with Buerhle in the pitching staff.

MarySwiss
07-08-2007, 02:42 PM
You're new, so here's some advice:

When you start a thread with a name like that, and the thread-starting post is a jillion words long, probably not too many Sox fans--especially the ones who love Buehrle--are going to actually read it.

Boondock Saint
07-08-2007, 02:44 PM
Buehrle isn't a piece that you add to a team. He's a guy you build a team AROUND. Trading him takes away a HUGE (some would say the biggest) part of any rebuilding effort. Trading away Buehrle is showing a dedication to losing for the next 4 or more years at least.

NorbertoMartin
07-08-2007, 02:45 PM
You're new, so here's some advice:

When you start a thread with a name like that, and the thread-starting post is a jillion words long, probably not too many Sox fans--especially the ones who love Buehrle--are going to actually read it.

So, another viewpoint to the most important issue facing the team today isn't worth reading?

NorbertoMartin
07-08-2007, 02:48 PM
Buehrle isn't a piece that you add to a team. He's a guy you build a team AROUND. Trading him takes away a HUGE (some would say the biggest) part of any rebuilding effort. Trading away Buehrle is showing a dedication to losing for the next 4 or more years at least.

I understand your point, but how is the team supposed to improve in other areas considering Burls will have 14 Mill towards payroll and a NTC? You can only spend so much in free agency.

My point is that this team as it stands now and even if they extended Burls, would be at least 2 years away.

LITTLE NELL
07-08-2007, 02:55 PM
You only trade him if you are going to completely rebuild. His trade value is not that high when he can walk at the end of the year. You will only get a couple of prospects.

Boondock Saint
07-08-2007, 02:57 PM
I understand your point, but how is the team supposed to improve in other areas considering Burls will have 14 Mill towards payroll and a NTC? You can only spend so much in free agency.

My point is that this team as it stands now and even if they extended Burls, would be at least 2 years away.

I'm up for trading almost anyone else on this team. Just KEEP MARK BUEHRLE. Konerko can go. AJ can go. Bobby can go. I'd even be open to trading Garland if the price is right. You just can't get rid of Buehrle.

NorbertoMartin
07-08-2007, 02:58 PM
You only trade him if you are going to completely rebuild. His trade value is not that high when he can walk at the end of the year. You will only get a couple of prospects.

If we can get a major league ready player (O-Hudson) and a propect ready maybe sometime next year, that would at least potentially fill 2 holes by the end of next year, while freeing up salary for this winter's FA crop.

NorbertoMartin
07-08-2007, 02:59 PM
I'm up for trading almost anyone else on this team. Just KEEP MARK BUEHRLE. Konerko can go. AJ can go. Bobby can go. I'd even be open to trading Garland if the price is right. You just can't get rid of Buehrle.

That's fair. As long as filling other needs are being taken into account.

Daver
07-08-2007, 03:01 PM
If we can get a major league ready player (O-Hudson) and a propect ready maybe sometime next year, that would at least potentially fill 2 holes by the end of next year, while freeing up salary for this winter's FA crop.

There is no FA pitcher in this coming offseason that is better than the one you want to trade, and even average pitchers are getting 10 mil a year, so what are you saving?

Boondock Saint
07-08-2007, 03:01 PM
freeing up salary for this winter's FA crop.

Anyone that thinks we're making a big splash in the free agent market this winter is delusional. We're not giving money to our own ace, and people think we're signing Ichiro and ARod. Reinsdorf isn't paying for those guys. And believe me, Ichiro and ARod's agents see what JR is doing to Buehrle. Why even talk to the Sox when it's clear that they're going to nickel and dime you in contract talks?

Frater Perdurabo
07-08-2007, 03:02 PM
A four-year deal means he's still here to anchor the rotation in 2010 and 2011.

Is it possible that in 2010 one of Gio, Floyd, Masset, Sisco, etc. will be performing as one of the top-10 starting pitchers in the AL? Yes. But I wouldn't bet on it.

Buehrle is the best pitcher the Sox have had since Jack McDowell. The difference is that Buehrle has better mechanics and simply doesn't get hurt. Finally, as Paul Konerko says, Buehrle has "guts." (PK wanted to say "balls.")

Frater Perdurabo
07-08-2007, 03:05 PM
There is no FA pitcher in this coming offseason that is better than the one you want to trade, and even average pitchers are getting 10 mil a year, so what are you saving?

Gospel. This is not sucking up, but if you "know nothing about baseball," then any GM who doesn't lock up Buehrle to the terms widely reported is an utter idiot.

NorbertoMartin
07-08-2007, 03:05 PM
Anyone that thinks we're making a big splash in the free agent market this winter is delusional. We're not giving money to our own ace, and people think we're signing Ichiro and ARod. Reinsdorf isn't paying for those guys. And believe me, Ichiro and ARod's agents see what JR is doing to Buehrle. Why even talk to the Sox when it's clear that they're going to nickel and dime you in contract talks?

Well, if Arod is out of the equation, it will be because of Boras. . . .and no other reason. I don't know who KW would target in particular through free agency, but giving out a big contract like those two would require doesn't make any sense either.

MrX
07-08-2007, 03:07 PM
Well, if Arod is out of the equation, it will be because of Boras. . . .and no other reason. I don't know who KW would target in particular through free agency, but giving out a big contract like those two would require doesn't make any sense either.
Jerry's kid could be A-Rod's agent and they still wouldn't pay him what he would get from other teams.

MarySwiss
07-08-2007, 03:08 PM
So, another viewpoint to the most important issue facing the team today isn't worth reading?

Reread my post. I never said your opinion wasn't worth reading--if someone really felt like reading a very long post that makes the "Trade Buehrle" argument.

My point is that Sox fans by-and-large seem to be of the opposite persuasion. Which is why titling your thread as you did and following with a long first-post will probably limit the thread's readership.

champagne030
07-08-2007, 03:13 PM
If we can get a major league ready player (O-Hudson) and a propect ready maybe sometime next year, that would at least potentially fill 2 holes by the end of next year, while freeing up salary for this winter's FA crop.

Trading Javy would bring more in return. The idea of keeping him around for 2.5M less per season instead of a much more effective Mark is silly. Maybe you're wanting to trade Javy, Mark and Jon to rebuild. That scenario seems just as crazy. We have no replacements for them and buying in free agency would cost much, much more.

NorbertoMartin
07-08-2007, 03:13 PM
Reread my post. I never said your opinion wasn't worth reading--if someone really felt like reading a very long post that makes the "Trade Buehrle" argument.

My point is that Sox fans by-and-large seem to be of the opposite persuasion. Which is why titling your thread as you did and following with a long first-post will probably limit the thread's readership.

I appreciate the suggestion. In the future, I will entice participation and readership by posting a shorter, allbeit less complete argument.

NorbertoMartin
07-08-2007, 03:16 PM
Trading Javy would bring more in return. The idea of keeping him around for 2.5M less per season instead of a much more effective Mark is silly. Maybe you're wanting to trade Javy, Mark and Jon to rebuild. That scenario seems just as crazy. We have no replacements for them and buying in free agency would cost much, much more.

Point taken. I'm all for trading anyone in the starting staff who can get the best possible return, but the problem we face is that the Buehrle impasse involves the dispute over a NTC, which I don't think should handcuff the team down the road.

Daver
07-08-2007, 03:19 PM
Point taken. I'm all for trading anyone in the starting staff who can get the best possible return, but the problem we face is that the Buehrle impasse involves the dispute over a NTC, which I don't think should handcuff the team down the road.

Javier Vazquez already has a no trade clause.

It's Dankerific
07-08-2007, 03:21 PM
If the thrust of this argument is true, KW and JR need to come out and say "we have no chance of winning anything in the next 2-4 years, so we aren't going to sign Mark who deserves to win."

But they are not, they give alot of lip service to "winning". if the goal is winning, Mark stays on the team. This is not debatable.

Boondock Saint
07-08-2007, 03:23 PM
if the goal is winning, Mark stays on the team. This is not debatable.

I like that. I like it a lot. Very to the point.

Nellie_Fox
07-08-2007, 03:23 PM
Javier Vazquez already has a no trade clause.Do you think Buehrle would accept one like Vazquez's? Do you think maybe one like that has been offered and he turned it down, but that we haven't heard about it (just like we haven't heard any solid details, just rumors?)

Daver
07-08-2007, 03:25 PM
Do you think Buehrle would accept one like Vazquez's? Do you think maybe one like that has been offered and he turned it down, but that we haven't heard about it (just like we haven't heard any solid details, just rumors?)

I have no idea, I'm not included in the negotiations. I am simply pointing out the fact that the Sox gave a no trade to one of their starting pitchers, and refuse to do so for another.

Murphy10
07-08-2007, 03:26 PM
I don't get the part where you are saying that dye got old quick, but then later you said that the bullpen and dye are the only to things with trade value. So if your saying he's to old and will stay batting 215 how is he of any trade value?

Frater Perdurabo
07-08-2007, 03:28 PM
Do you think Buehrle would accept one like Vazquez's? Do you think maybe one like that has been offered and he turned it down, but that we haven't heard about it (just like we haven't heard any solid details, just rumors?)

So what if that's the case?

If the reports are true, Buehrle WANTS to stay with the Sox. He's even willing to take less than market value to do so.

Vazquez has never expressed that kind of love for the Sox. He only wanted to avoid being traded to West Coast teams.

Vazquez seems to be motivated by family concerns - he doesn't want to be traded farther away from his family.

Buehrle's actions point to him thinking of the Sox as his family.

That kind of loyalty ought to be recognized and rewarded.

NorbertoMartin
07-08-2007, 03:29 PM
Javier Vazquez already has a no trade clause.

yes, but he only has 3 yrs, right? buehrle's deal would in essence be for 5 years if he was to be traded.

chisoxmike
07-08-2007, 03:29 PM
Someone had to do it...

:threadsucks

NDSox12
07-08-2007, 03:30 PM
Buehrle re-signed!!!

Boondock Saint
07-08-2007, 03:31 PM
Buehrle re-signed!!!

You had BETTER not be jerking my chain...

Murphy10
07-08-2007, 03:33 PM
there goes that idea

NDSox12
07-08-2007, 03:33 PM
You had BETTER not be jerking my chain...

Fortunately, I'm not. Though I'm guessing you figured that out yourself with one of the five new threads that were started within a minute of each other.

Frater Perdurabo
07-08-2007, 03:34 PM
It was reported on the Sox scoreboard and relayed over WGN by Hawk!

Madscout
07-08-2007, 03:35 PM
LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE REALLY UP **** CREEK!!!
:supernana:

NorbertoMartin
07-08-2007, 03:35 PM
I don't get the part where you are saying that dye got old quick, but then later you said that the bullpen and dye are the only to things with trade value. So if your saying he's to old and will stay batting 215 how is he of any trade value?

Dye getting old is a reason as to our decline in 2007. I don't see why he would have any value in particular considering his decline and pending free agency, but according to some reports. . .other teams may be willing to take on those risks. Getting something in return for him now would be prudent.

TDog
07-08-2007, 03:35 PM
Trading Buehrle also would satisfy the typical WSI poster's need to believe their team is out to ruin their lives. Wallowing in this belief and threatening to boycott the team seems to be what many live for.

The people who don't want Buehrle traded will naturally be upset. The people who do want Buehrle traded will be upset with management for not getting enough in return.

NorbertoMartin
07-08-2007, 03:37 PM
LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE REALLY UP **** CREEK!!!
:supernana:

Let's see what the terms are. I'm happy about it, but I also want the team to be a contender in the next few seasons.

TheCommander
07-08-2007, 03:54 PM
Let's see what the terms are. I'm happy about it, but I also want the team to be a contender in the next few seasons.

PLEASE! Don't let a silver lining get in the way of your dark cloud. :rolleyes:

GlassSox
07-08-2007, 04:22 PM
MB signed so let's move on!

TornLabrum
07-08-2007, 04:27 PM
I hereby declare this thread moot.

spiffie
07-08-2007, 05:29 PM
:hawk

This thread is OVAH!

Soxfanspcu11
07-08-2007, 06:25 PM
Why Buehrle Should Be Traded:


After sifting through this message board for the past several weeks during the course of the Buehrle saga and thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion that Buehrle needs to be traded, unless he accepts the supposed limited no-trade clause.

Let me preface this post by saying that even though Iím new to the board, Iíve been a sox fan since 1990, been a supporter through the good and the bad, and Buehrle is clearly my favorite Wsox pitcher ever.

That being said, and although this is a minority viewpoint, Iím trying to not let emotion blur the stark realities facing this team for 2007 and more importantly, 2008 and beyond.

My first point of contention. Let me point out the obvious, which everyone will agree with: This team is in trouble for 2007. Agreed? OK, good. Itís been a precipitous decline and everyone appears to be baffled as to why it happened so fast. While, I didnít think we would barely be out of the cellar, just ahead of the lowly Royals, I had plenty of concerns coming into the season, irrespective of the fact that the central is the toughest division in baseball to begin with.

In hindsight, some of the roster moves (or non-moves) prior to the winter just havenít worked out. Extending Pods has turned out to be a disaster, Erstad was a horrible decision to sign in the first place, the bullpen hasnít lived up to what we hoped they would be, Credeís back has become a problem and thereís no clear answer whether he will be back, Dye got old quick, the middle IF got off to a slow start and havenít lived up to prior yearsí performances.

I donít want to lay blame on management or on individual players, but my point is that even though we didnít see the team performing so poorly, the fact remains that they are not good. Thereís no mystery about it, injuries combined with free swinging hitters, and a bad bullpen have led to the teamís demise.


Second point of contention: As a majority of the roster stands right now, This team is in trouble for 2008 and beyond. Agreed? Maybe some of you will not agree. So, what are we to do about it? Coming to grips with reality is a good starting point. This team isnít at the point where retooling is the proper characterization of what needs to happen. That was last winterís approach. Due to the age of the team, obvious injury factors, and decline in performance, this team needs to undergo somewhere between major retooling and rebuilding. We donít know whether Crede will ever return to form, Pods and Erstad are probably gone, middle infield could use upgrading, bullpen is dead with the exception of Jenks and maybe Thornton. So how should we go about fixing the glaring problems? Trade who has value NOW in hopes of contending in 2009. Who has value now? Starting pitching and Dye. In my opinion, whatever upgrades/changes are made to this team between now and next season, thereís STILL little to no chance of us making the playoffs next year in this division. To me, that is the crucial point that leads into the NTC issue.

Here is why Buehrle canít have a full no trade: Assuming he pitches his heart out and is a bona fide #1 in 2008, what good will it do? Thereís no way this team will compete in the central with an at best a mediocre team with presumably unfilled holes. Furthermore, what if the team isnít up to snuff in 2009, are we to be handcuffed by his no trade? He wouldnít waive the clause, nor should he because he loves Chicago and his family would be entrenched. Even 14 million would be a burden to a team that wouldnít be competitive and prevent KW from improving other positions. Keep him, because we love him so much to the detriment of filling other needs? I donít think so. This has nothing to do KWís ego. Itís purely whatís in the best interests of the team. They have to fix whatís broken. We arguably need changes at every ďevery-dayĒ position with the exception of 1B (Konerko), 3B(Crede/Fields), C(AJ). Itís a mess of a roster the likes of which we havenít seen in a few years and requires difficult decisions. Part of the problem is that expectations were so high prior to the season and now is the time where we all have to reevalute what we have become.


This isnít a doomsday opinion, I think itís a reality. Iím thinking that we should consider ourselves fortunate if the team can battle for a division title in 2009 by freeing up salary and filling other holes via trade, but even that may be a stretch. Tribe, Detroit, and Minny are going to be as good as theyíve been for the next two years, therefore, in order to get back in the race by 2009, Buehrle needs to be traded now to free up salary and get potential major league ready players who will be here after next season. I wouldnít be surprised (or against) Jenks being traded as well.



:threadsucks

Frankfan4life
07-08-2007, 07:01 PM
:threadsucksBIG TIME!!!!!

DSpivack
07-08-2007, 07:07 PM
I hereby declare this thread moot.

I don't know why, but moot is a fun word to say.

TornLabrum
07-08-2007, 10:32 PM
Ditto. That's why I said it in two threads.

RadioheadRocks
07-08-2007, 10:35 PM
I don't know why, but moot is a fun word to say.


I concur, and you know I wish that I had Jessie's girl!

Sorry... couldn't resist! :D:

jabrch
07-08-2007, 10:52 PM
Javier Vazquez already has a no trade clause.

Not a Full NTC. That's still bad business.

Dice
07-09-2007, 08:30 AM
I'm not blind like most Sox fans. But this season is over despite Williams push to be 'buyers' in the market. HOWEVER, re-signing Buehrle is a step in the right direction for the future of this franchise.

The idea of trading Buehrle just to trade him is stupid in my book. IF your gonna trade Buehrle then you better get something of quality in return. And I don't mean trading for minor leaguers that's not going to help until 2010. If you were going to trade him you'd better get someone in return who's young and was going to help you out right away.

In baseball, one of the toughest parts to assemble for a baseball team is a starting rotation. Unless your the Yankees, Red Sox or any major market team you cannot assemble a quality rotation in a year. The White Sox are not big spenders like the formentioned teams. Keeping Buehrle in-tact holds together a component on your ball club that has been the bright spot of this dismal season. For years, I've seen teams trying to assemble a starting rotation and for years I've seen many teams fail. Heck, even the Yankees have been having issues assembling a rotation for the last couple of years and they spend big time bucks.

We need to be glad that the rotation of Buehrle, Garland, Vasquez and Danks will still be in order for another year. This team can be re-built and we can still contend next season BUT Williams is going to have to put his foot to the metal this off-season in order to get it done. The bullpen should be his number one concern. If there was an area to really spend money, most of it would be in the bullpen area. Then I would concentrate on the everyday lineup. People are have been overly concerned about the everyday lineup and I find it would be better to rebuild that then to rebuild a quality rotation. Look at the Padres, the continue to get scrap-heap players off the free agent market and still contend for the division. AND they have two guys in their rotation that's over 40.

WLL1855
07-09-2007, 05:59 PM
Not a Full NTC. That's still bad business.

Go cry a river.