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Viva Medias B's
07-06-2007, 10:42 PM
Do you approve or disapprove of the job Ken Williams is doing as general manager?

FarWestChicago
07-06-2007, 10:46 PM
KW is the worst person ever associated with sports. He makes Gary Bettman look like Christ. He should be drawn and quartered, or at least killed. His family should suffer, too. Somebody should pay for our suffering. :angry:

Viva Medias B's
07-06-2007, 10:48 PM
KW is the worst person ever associated with sports. He makes Gary Bettman look like Christ. He should be drawn and quartered, or at least killed. His family should suffer, too. Somebody should pay for our suffering. :angry:

:rolling:

nccwsfan
07-06-2007, 10:49 PM
Hate to be a waffler, but I think the answer is TBD- what he does in the next 4 weeks will determine how he's doing.

The bullpen gamble was a sound failure, some of the position players he brought in were suspect (injuries, performance), the farm system needs to be overhauled, and all in all this team is nothing like the team Ozzie said he needed to win. Now that virtually all of us have come to the conclusion that this needs to be dismantled, let's see what KW can do to position this team for a better 2008 and beyond.

FarWestChicago
07-06-2007, 10:50 PM
Geez, West, will you please come off the fence and tell us what you really think?You started it. You know what you were looking for. I delivered exactly what you wanted. Stop complaining and smell the urine.

RockJock07
07-06-2007, 10:55 PM
Um, Was Kenny pitching today, or hitting? Garland had a bad outing, and so did Gavin.

The problem I have with Kenny is holding on to Jose and Dye. These players should have been traded 2-3 weeks ago. I still trust in him, however things need to change now, not in 2-3 weeks, NOW!

nsolo
07-06-2007, 11:06 PM
Hate to be a waffler, but I think the answer is TBD- what he does in the next 4 weeks will determine how he's doing.

The bullpen gamble was a sound failure, some of the position players he brought in were suspect (injuries, performance), the farm system needs to be overhauled, and all in all this team is nothing like the team Ozzie said he needed to win. Now that virtually all of us have come to the conclusion that this needs to be dismantled, let's see what KW can do to position this team for a better 2008 and beyond.

All those negatives and you are still fence sitting?

jabrch
07-06-2007, 11:06 PM
There isn't anyone associated with this team who has had a good year.

I hope that's not a surprise to anyone.

Frontman
07-06-2007, 11:14 PM
The whole team stinks right now; but depending on what KW does in the next few weeks will determine if he has the stuff to get us back into playoff contention.

But "prospects" aren't it. We need some key, straight-off-the-plane-ready-to-play at the Major League level players.

The Dude
07-06-2007, 11:19 PM
You started it. You know what you were looking for. I delivered exactly what you wanted. Stop complaining and smell the urine.

Well said! :thumbsup:

Frater Perdurabo
07-06-2007, 11:19 PM
KW is the worst person ever associated with sports. He makes Gary Bettman look like Christ. He should be drawn and quartered, or at least killed. His family should suffer, too. Somebody should pay for our suffering. :angry:

I was about to post the same thing in "Brian Anderson rating" thread. :tongue:

For assembling the only Sox team to win a WS in my lifetime, KW is the best GM the Sox have had in my lifetime. That doesn't mean he can't make poor decisions. Here are my mid-term grades for his 2007:

Bullpen - a good plan simply backfired. A (effort) plus F (results) = C

Who predicted the hitters all would suck? Not KW's fault. I (incomplete)

Banking on injury-prone (but productive when healthy) Pods & Erstad = C-

A on Danks and I on Floyd/Gio (grades due in 2009).

It's Pass/Fail with Buehrle. The 4/$56M+NTC deal = A+. No deal = Zero.

Frontman
07-06-2007, 11:25 PM
I was about to post the same thing in "Brian Anderson rating" thread. :tongue:

For assembling the only Sox team to win a WS in my lifetime, KW is the best GM the Sox have had in my lifetime. That doesn't mean he can't make poor decisions. Here are my mid-term grades for his 2007:

Bullpen - a good plan simply backfired. A (effort) plus F (results) = C

Who predicted the hitters all would suck? Not KW's fault. I (incomplete)

Banking on injury-prone (but productive when healthy) Pods & Erstad = C-

A on Danks and I on Floyd/Gio (grades due in 2009).

It's Pass/Fail with Buehrle. The 4/$56M+NTC deal = A+. No deal = Zero.

Very well put, although I think you're being kind due to his success with the 2005 club.

Bullpen= C for effort (he took a bunch of non-successful players off other teams and hoped Cooper could keep producing miracles.) F for result.

Batting= can't be put on KW, other than not handing Walker his walking papers if they don't come around and STAY around soon. Incomplete.

A+ for Danks. This kids got a chance to be very good, but time will tell. Right now, his performance as the #5 man has been very very good for his experience level.

Gio? INC

Floyd? Might be INC, but if it walks like a Duck, it quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck; its a bust. Tonight's peformance looked like the spring training games.

An aging and injury prone outfield?= D

And as far as Mark? The verdict is still out on that kangaroo court.

FarWestChicago
07-06-2007, 11:34 PM
For assembling the only Sox team to win a WS in my lifetime, KW is the best GM the Sox have had in my lifetime.Don't be silly. KW is the worst GM in the history of any sport and his family should suffer. Please be rational and realistic.

Nellie_Fox
07-06-2007, 11:39 PM
Don't be silly. KW is the worst GM in the history of any sport and his family should suffer. Please be rational and realistic.You left out that after his is killed, and the quartered portions of his body each left in different locations for the buzzards to consume so that there is nothing left to remember him by, his house should be burned, the land plowed under and sowed with salt so that nothing will ever grow there again, lest his family have something of value left.

Frontman
07-06-2007, 11:41 PM
You left out that after his is killed, and the quartered portions of his body each left in different locations for the buzzards to consume so that there is nothing left to remember him by, his house should be burned, the land plowed under and sowed with salt so that nothing will ever grow there again, lest his family have something of value left.

Including their name. Their name and all family history of "Williams" must be stricken from the public record. (Looks at the Wimbelon results of the day.) Ok, maybe that won't work.

UserNameBlank
07-06-2007, 11:41 PM
Something about this poll smells fishy to me, considering the approximate total population of planet Earth is 6,602,224,175 and 2,147,483,661 people (32.5% of Earth) have already voted.

Frontman
07-06-2007, 11:48 PM
Something about this poll smells fishy to me, considering the approximate total population of planet Earth is 6,602,224,175 and 2,147,483,661 people (32.5% of Earth) have already voted.

One out of three humans feel Kenny Williams is the fault of all of our miseries. He even kicks puppies.

Nellie_Fox
07-06-2007, 11:49 PM
Something about this poll smells fishy to me, considering the approximate total population of planet Earth is 6,602,224,175 and 2,147,483,661 people (32.5% of Earth) have already voted.That's just how hated he is. Accept it.

nccwsfan
07-06-2007, 11:52 PM
All those negatives and you are still fence sitting?

It's been a disaster this year, and he should take the heat for the makeup of this squad, but going into the season a lot of us thought it would be a solid contender. So to say on 4/1 that I approve and on 7/1 I disapprove seems fickle. Knowing what we know now I'd like to wait and see what he does with this team. Does he re-sign Buehrle? Can he unload Contreras or Dye or Iguchi, etc, and what can he get in return? Will he fill some of the holes (bullpen, OF, middle infield) with major league talent, retreads, or prospects?

Once we get to August 1st we'll have a better idea as to how he's done. My gut tells me that he'll do a good job in retooling this team, but I can't say that for certain today, thus the fence sitting.

nsolo
07-07-2007, 12:00 AM
Please put me first in line to give continued congrats to KW for 2005. As a Sox fan for over 50 years, I was, until then, beginning to believe I'd never experience a WS winner. Now, I'm beginning to believe '05 will be the only one. True or not, thank for 2005.

But under the heading of "What have you done for me lately", based on giving Pods an extension in the off season, a roll of the dice for the bullpen that came up snake eyes, same for Erstad (not what I believed has a good idea at the time due to his being injury prone and aging, when we already had the same problem with JD), sitting on his hands while the season goes down the tubes, his (as of now) not realizing the real money he'd be saving if he'd swallow his pride and give MB the NTC, the continuation of paychecks being issued to Greg Walker, I'd says as of now, right now, he sucks.

But....someone very wisely stated a couple of weeks ago in another thread that the next few weeks will prove the true worth of KW. Right now, I'm so pissed that everyone can take a hike. My emotions put aside, the aforementioned past poster was wise. Kennys true legacy might be better decided in the next few weeks rather than using '05 as the only benchmark.

ChiSoxFan7
07-07-2007, 12:05 AM
2005. nuff said.

nsolo
07-07-2007, 12:23 AM
2005. nuff said.

I disagree. The same logic doesn't hold true for a player, so why should the person who essentially hires and fires them not be held accountable under the same standard?

When the performance of a player suffers, he's held accountable. This is true even if the previous year was an outstanding career one. Like I said in a previous post, thanks for 2005, but what have you done for me lately? Like it or not, that's how ALL of us are judged in our capital based society. Its part of our culture.

Once again, as of now, right now, KW's deserves a failing grade. In my eyes, to add to that, he seems to be stubborn and/or unwilling to make a course correction or accept fault. But.......to steal the words of another poster, the next week or two will show the real stuff of which KW is made of.

Here's hoping that he can put us on a smoother course.

UserNameBlank
07-07-2007, 12:28 AM
One out of three humans feel Kenny Williams is the fault of all of our miseries. He even kicks puppies.
Very true. And when he finally realized that kicking puppies could ruin his public image he ninjaly drafted and trained Brian Anderson to do it for him.

As far as the future of this team goes, us mortal beings can only guess what KW is thinking. We'll never really know though because his Thetan levels are way too high for us to comprehend.

DumpJerry
07-07-2007, 12:40 AM
Something about this poll smells fishy to me, considering the approximate total population of planet Earth is 6,602,224,175 and 2,147,483,661 people (32.5% of Earth) have already voted.
....and your point is?:?:

Do not ever, ever underestimate the popularity of WSI on the World Wide Web.

Boondock Saint
07-07-2007, 12:51 AM
:threadrules:

lostfan
07-07-2007, 01:33 AM
Very true. And when he finally realized that kicking puppies could ruin his public image he ninjaly drafted and trained Brian Anderson to do it for him.

As far as the future of this team goes, us mortal beings can only guess what KW is thinking. We'll never really know though because his Thetan levels are way too high for us to comprehend.
That's pretty bad ass how you just made up a word... I'm adding that one to my vocabulary.

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2007, 01:59 AM
That's pretty bad ass how you just made up a word... I'm adding that one to my vocabulary.

Ninjaly (adv.) NIN-djah-lee. By stealth, evading detection. "He was chased across the field, but he escaped ninjaly.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 01:59 AM
2005. nuff said.
That's homerism at its finest. 2005 was beautiful, as a matter of fact when I typed that I just looked up at the WS banner hanging to my left, but it's come and gone. But we've got to live in the present and be objective - 20 years from now I don't want to be doing like the Bears fans now who point at something that happened a generation ago, as great as it was. He had a great team in 2005 but he also may have caught some lightning in his bottle too. Can he do it again? Will he? Is he really a skilled GM or did he just get lucky? All valid and fair questions IMO to which we should be finding the answer to soon.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 02:00 AM
Ninjaly (adv.) NIN-djah-lee. By stealth, evading detection. "He was chased across the field, but he escaped ninjaly.
I like it. I'm going to "ninjaly" act like this word has been in my vocabulary for years. :D: (I know, not the best use of the word. I'm learning)

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2007, 02:05 AM
I like it. I'm going to "ninjaly" act like this word has been in my vocabulary for years. :D: (I know, not the best use of the word. I'm learning)I do hope you know I made up that definition.

jabrch
07-07-2007, 02:06 AM
20 years from now I don't want to be doing like the Bears fans now who point at something that happened a generation ago, as great as it was.

I'll never let go of 1985. I'll never let go of 2005. You can't make me. You and your kind will NEVER devalue what those two seasons meant to me. Nothing we (Sox or the Bears) do today or tomorrow will EVER be as special as those two seasons were. I feel terrible for kids who are too young to really know how good that Bears team was. I feel for those who are so shortsighted that they don't enjoy 2005 anymore and that they make themselves miserable over today over how crappy we are playing.

But 20 years from now, I will still be talking about 1985 regardless of what happens between today and 2027. I will surely be talking about 2005. I'll enjoy our next Superbowl. I'll enjoy our next WS. But in a very different and much more subdued sort of way than 85 and 05.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 02:10 AM
I do hope you know I made up that definition.
Of course.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 02:18 AM
I'll never let go of 1985. I'll never let go of 2005. You can't make me. You and your kind will NEVER devalue what those two seasons meant to me. Nothing we (Sox or the Bears) do today or tomorrow will EVER be as special as those two seasons were. I feel terrible for kids who are too young to really know how good that Bears team was. I feel for those who are so shortsighted that they don't enjoy 2005 anymore and that they make themselves miserable over today over how crappy we are playing.

But 20 years from now, I will still be talking about 1985 regardless of what happens between today and 2027. I will surely be talking about 2005. I'll enjoy our next Superbowl. I'll enjoy our next WS. But in a very different and much more subdued sort of way than 85 and 05.
Ehh? "You and your kind?" *** does that mean? I'm like the biggest Bears fan around and I'll never be able to tell which championship would've been more special to me had they won the SB this year. What a good problem that would've been.

You misunderstand me. Nobody has to "let go" of past championships, the memories won't ever fade ,but hiding in the past and letting it overshadow the present/future is a pretty sad way of looking at things if you ask me. I won't pretend these things just happened last week... we have today to worry about and tomorrow to look forward to. Just because the championships are behind me doesn't mean I don't know they're there... I'd just rather be looking towards another championship. Instead of comparing every good Bears team to '85 let's enjoy the one we have now... in the future I hope Sox fans don't start comparing every team to '05.

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2007, 02:20 AM
... in the future I hope Sox fans don't start comparing every team to '05.They'll have to. Wire-to-wire, and 11-1 in the playoffs/series? That will be hard to top.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 02:22 AM
They'll have to. Wire-to-wire, and 11-1 in the playoffs/series? That will be hard to top.
If they want to, they can go ahead... but if that next team takes all 7 games to win the World Series it won't mean any less to me just because they didn't equal or top the '05 squad.

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2007, 02:26 AM
If they want to, they can go ahead... but if that next team takes all 7 games to win the World Series it won't mean any less to me just because they didn't equal or top the '05 squad.I didn't say it would mean less. But they will be compared; that's a fact.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 02:28 AM
I didn't say it would mean less. But they will be compared; that's a fact.
Ok, maybe "compared" isn't the right word. Something more along the lines of "cast in a dimmer light and viewed as inferior for failing to meet the high standards set in 2005 for White Sox championships."

jabrch
07-07-2007, 02:28 AM
Ehh? "You and your kind?" *** does that mean?

By that, I meant people who tell me that I need to move on and not be living in the past. I will not move on. I will not stop living in the past. The good old days are exactly as good as I remember them - and nothing will make me forget that.

You misunderstand me. Nobody has to "let go" of past championships, the memories won't ever fade ,but hiding in the past and letting it overshadow the present/future is a pretty sad way of looking at things if you ask me.


I'll enjoy the next one - but not anywhere near as much as the last ones.

we have today to worry about

Not me - I don't worry one bit about today.

and tomorrow to look forward to.

Agreed - 100%

Instead of comparing every good Bears team to '85 let's enjoy the one we have now... in the future I hope Sox fans don't start comparing every team to '05.

I will compare every Bears team to 85. I will do that forever because 85 was the Gold Standard by which any team should be compared to.

For years, I have been saying if the Sox would win just one WS I'd never be one of those fans who *****ed about the next one, or the one after that. 2005 was awesome. If it happens again - great. If not, and I go the rest of my life not seeing the Sox win the WS, it won't bother me one bit. 2005 was MY World Series. Anything else will be someone elses. I'll enjoy it - but not the same way I enjoyed 2005.

jabrch
07-07-2007, 02:30 AM
I didn't say it would mean less. But they will be compared; that's a fact.

Nellie - to me, the next World Series WILL mean less than 05 the same way the Superbowl this year meant less to me than 85. We can win 10 WS in the next 25 years and none would mean as much as 2005 did.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 02:35 AM
jabrch I think we agree in principle but just express the opinion differently.

I think where we differ is that is my basic approach to life. It doesn't really matter what I have accomplished or where I have been, what's more important is where I am now and what's most important is where I'm headed. Sports is different because the past achievements always stand and once that goal is reached it'll always be met, but even those accomplishments fade after a while even if they're never forgotten. So the same principle applies IMO.

And maybe I shouldn't have said "worry" in the last post because although I'm sorely disappointed in this Sox team, I'm not stressed out about it at all. I mean after all 2005 was only 2 years ago, in spite of what I said about moving on earlier. The banner I talked about earlier is still bright and colorful.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 02:38 AM
Nellie - to me, the next World Series WILL mean less than 05 the same way the Superbowl this year meant less to me than 85. We can win 10 WS in the next 25 years and none would mean as much as 2005 did.
I don't know. They're all equal to me. Although 2005 was the first and there will never be another first, but aside from that they all would rank the same.

I would say something about wishing people would stop telling younger Bears fans that the current defense is nothing compared to '85 (BECAUSE WHAT TEAM IS? REALLY?) and let us all enjoy the current team but I'm convinced I'll never get anywhere with that. :cool:

jabrch
07-07-2007, 02:42 AM
I think where we differ is that is my basic approach to life. It doesn't really matter what I have accomplished or where I have been, what's more important is where I am now and what's most important is where I'm headed. Sports is different because the past achievements always stand and once that goal is reached it'll always be met, but even those accomplishments fade after a while even if they're never forgotten. So the same principle applies IMO.


In my career, or in sports that I play, it is a totally different story. But with the Bears and the Sox, nothing can ever match 85/05. It isn't possible because those seasons were firsts - virtually. At work, I don't stop at any one success - I agree with you. I don't stop trying to hit after I hit a HR in my first AB in a softball game.

I can't wait for our next WS or Superbowl win - but it will be the second best WS/SB of my life; not the best.

jabrch
07-07-2007, 02:49 AM
I would say something about wishing people would stop telling younger Bears fans that the current defense is nothing compared to '85 (BECAUSE WHAT TEAM IS? REALLY?) and let us all enjoy the current team but I'm convinced I'll never get anywhere with that. :cool:

That is correct. You won't get anywhere with that. :D:

That Bears D, even without it's starting SS and OLB (Bell and Harris) was completely dominating. No team ran on them. No team (except Miami) passed on them. Almost nobody scored on them. They destroyed their playoff opponents.

Last year we had a nice Bears defense. Making the Super Bowl was nice - but the defense 2007 couldnt hold a candle to 85.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 02:58 AM
That is correct. You won't get anywhere with that. :D:

That Bears D, even without it's starting SS and OLB (Bell and Harris) was completely dominating. No team ran on them. No team (except Miami) passed on them. Almost nobody scored on them. They destroyed their playoff opponents.

Last year we had a nice Bears defense. Making the Super Bowl was nice - but the defense 2007 couldnt hold a candle to 85.
I'd be willing to bet if you looked at game tapes from 1985 the defense doesn't look nearly as dominant as history has caused us to remember - which is basically that every team they faced ended up with negative yardage and the starting QB of every team went on IR after every game because he couldn't stand getting sacked 28 times. There's times when they actually look pretty ordinary. I was surprised, I guess it's easy to forget even the best isn't perfect.

/hijack

Domeshot17
07-07-2007, 03:44 AM
In hindsight, I think Kenny got short sighted, but not this year, last year. I think he spent the farm trying to make a back to back run, it didnt work, and crippled us this year. He had to know Thome at 37 wasnt going to hit like Thome of 27. He didnt feel like Brandon could win as a kid in pressure, so he got Javy at the expense of Chris Young Duque and Vizciano.


This year, I dont blame Kenny for everything, but I do for a good deal of it. Did he know the offense would suck? No one could. Did he know he was going into the season with atleast 5 positions in real question of either talent or injury (LF-CF-3b-SS-DH) and not have a plan B, for the most part yes. He rolled the dice Pods Erstad Thome and Crede (all known injury risks, big time) could stay healthy and he lost. He also lost that Uribe could remember how to hit his way out of a paperbag. The only plan B was the Kids who minus Fields and maybe Gonzalez have shown they aren't ready. The biggest loss of the season IMHO was Pablo. He was an unexpected player to lose and really irreplacable, because most guys with his contact speed and versatility are expensive players to trade for. But no matter how you slice it, Williams put together a team that has no table setters or speed for its boppers with the guys you expected to get hurt hurt.

The other thing is Williams for years (basically since he left scouting and became the GM) has had a crew that scouts and drafts horribly. Our Minor League coaches do not develop talent well, and that has left the well dry and put Kenny in the position of either trying to make an old team young again through Free Agency, Try and let these kids like Sweeney Anderson Owens figure out how to be baseball players at the pro level, or trade the few good cornerstones he has to fill several holes.

Now the problem is not only is 2007 a complete waste, but nothing looks good for 2008. You have holes at 5 positions and atleast 3 slots in the bullpen. We almost have to pull a 2005 all over again and rebuild the entire OF, middle IF, and bullpen in one offseason. The only positions that are safe for now are Konerko AJ Fields/Crede and Thome. Its a good core, but a lot of help is needed. Furthermore, it puts us in a situation where if we go too young with these trades, and wait 3 years for prospects to move along, we are looking at 20 of the 25 man roster being turned over before we have a shot to win again. For a man with a 3 year plan every year, I don't see one. I know Kenny has a tough job, a job none of us could probably do, but his job of putting together a winning team was not done this year. He gets another year, maybe 2 to get it right but even for him thats a tall order.


Either way by August this show should be over. Terrero has proven he doesn't belong, so get sweeney or anderson up for here for a few months of full time work. Both if Dye is dealt. Get as many kids up here as long as you can to see what they have. Lets do this now and not next year.

Grzegorz
07-07-2007, 04:44 AM
Don't be silly. KW is the worst GM in the history of any sport and his family should suffer. Please be rational and realistic.

Nothing personal but I voted that this poll sucks. There was no market to move JC or JD two weeks ago. With the recent performance of JC & JD the return on a trade might not be what is expected.

This is a bad team; KW made the moves he felt would work at the beginning of the year. Well those moves didn't work. Now give him the opportunity to fix this team.

He's not dealing from a position of strength; their appears to be no immediate position player help in the minors, the bullpen is horrible, the defense is horrible, and the fundamentals are horrible. He will not be able to pull a rabbit out of his hat.

Think about it, the starters are woefully underachieving to the point where they have limited market value and your archenemy, the Twins, just hung thirty-two runs around your neck over two games.

You can bet that the Twins are laughing at the Chicago White Sox at this very moment.

To the Chicago White Sox players I'd ask: "What are you going to do about it?"

FarWestChicago
07-07-2007, 05:56 AM
I do hope you know I made up that definition.Well, you are the official perfesser. You have those rights.

FarWestChicago
07-07-2007, 05:59 AM
Nothing personal but I voted that this poll sucks. There was no market to move JC or JD two weeks ago. With the recent performance of JC & JD the return on a trade might not be what is expected.

This is a bad team; KW made the moves he felt would work at the beginning of the year. Well those moves didn't work. Now give him the opportunity to fix this team.

He's not dealing from a position of strength; their appears to be no immediate position player help in the minors, the bullpen is horrible, the defense is horrible, and the fundamentals are horrible. He will not be able to pull a rabbit out of his hat.

Think about it, the starters are woefully underachieving to the point where they have limited market value and your archenemy, the Twins, just hung thirty-two runs around your neck over two games.

You can bet that the Twins are laughing at the Chicago White Sox at this very moment.

To the Chicago White Sox players I'd ask: "What are you going to do about it?"This is an excellent post. :thumbsup:

jabrch
07-07-2007, 07:18 AM
If we don't trade Dye, do you think he will by a Type A or a Type B FA?

It is based on 2 years of numbers, right? So he'd have a shot at being a Type A despite how bad this year was.

Flight #24
07-07-2007, 08:11 AM
This is a bad team; KW made the moves he felt would work at the beginning of the year. Well those moves didn't work. Now give him the opportunity to fix this team.

He's not dealing from a position of strength; their appears to be no immediate position player help in the minors, the bullpen is horrible, the defense is horrible, and the fundamentals are horrible. He will not be able to pull a rabbit out of his hat.


Unfortunately for Kenny, results are what counts. By that metric, he did a great job in the years leading up to 2005. Yes, there was some luck involved in winning a title, but that's true for all title teams, and it counterbalances years like 2001 and 2004 when his teams encountered significant bad luck.

But by the same token, he's responsible for a farm system that even according to his own assessment has underperformed and is not looking like it'll provide much assistance on the field in the near future (with the possible exception of SP help). He's also responsible for an organization that despite his alleged focus on fundamentals, routinely brings up and/or plays guys who don't seem to be able to execute simple baseball activities like bunting or hitting to the right side.

He's also responsible for a series of gambles that failed (much like he gets credit for gambles that paid off in 2005). These would include banking on Pods & Erstad, and a bullpen composed almost entirely of young, unproven guys, some with poor track records that were expected to turn it around. And IMO his current actions with Buehrle seem to indicate a failure to recognize that there are few if any absolutes, and that slavishly sticking to a "no NTC" mantra even in the face of a franchise player acting like it and trying to do what's best for the org even if it costs him a LOT of money is foolish.

Kenny's not perfect, and I don't think it's inconsistent to say he did a great job but that over the past 6-9 months, and re: the farm, the past few years, the quality of his work has declined. It's not beyond fixing, but Kenny's putting the team in the situation where it'll take some significant moves to contend in '08. And in general, when those moves involve FAs, they've been rare on the S. Side.

UserNameBlank
07-07-2007, 08:44 AM
That's pretty bad ass how you just made up a word... I'm adding that one to my vocabulary.

Go ahead. I'd also suggest "ninjafied" which I think might mean what a ninja apprentice becomes once a higher ranking ninja bestows honor and a black spandex suit upon him. For your further wikipediance (indisputable knowledge) "Ninja Party" refers to the coronation ceremony in which the apprentice is officially ninjafied.

And when he finally realized that kicking puppies could ruin his public image he ninjaly drafted and trained Brian Anderson to do it for him.

Ninjaly (adv.) NIN-djah-lee. By stealth, evading detection. "He was chased across the field, but he escaped ninjaly.

Damn it!

I invented a word and still managed to use it improperly!

...unless of course "ninjaly" can also mean cunningly, with extreme calculation.

Nellie? You're the professor...

Lukin13
07-07-2007, 08:55 AM
Um, Was Kenny pitching today, or hitting? Garland had a bad outing, and so did Gavin.


I am tired of this defense EVERY time a manager, coach or GM discussion starts up.

It makes sense... but when doesn't it? If the team goes 0-162 would the front office ever be pitching????

tick53
07-07-2007, 08:56 AM
It's no ones fault and it's everyones fault. The team just doesn't have it this year. I thought that during the off-season that Kenny had improved the bullpen tremendously. This didn't work out. Nobody was hitting, they had a boatload of injuries and the other teams took advantage of our lackluster bullpen.

What I can't understand is what happened to all these supposed "hard throwers" that we aquired? These flamethrowers put on a White Sox jersey and their velocities dropped 5-8 MPH.:?:

The nucleus of the World Champion team was there at the beginning of the season, so we all know that their ability is still there. I don't know though, Kenny put together our dream team in '05 but maybe they caught lightning in a bottle.

TornLabrum
07-07-2007, 09:11 AM
Ninjaly (adv.) NIN-djah-lee. By stealth, evading detection. "He was chased across the field, but he escaped ninjaly.

You do realize that you misspelled it. The noun form is ninja. The adjectival form, therefore, would be ninjal, making the adverbial form ninjally.

Hendu
07-07-2007, 09:29 AM
What happens over the next few weeks could make or break Kenny Williams' legacy here. If he makes some nice moves, we could have a promising team next year; if he doesn't make any moves or makes bad ones, we could be waiting at a long time until we're competitive again .

The World Series was amazing, but look what happened with the Angels. Their payroll is similar to ours and they've been a consistently good team after winning it all in 2002. Why shouldn't we expect the same?

sox1970
07-07-2007, 09:41 AM
I've always liked Kenny's aggressiveness, even when the moves didn't work. That aggressiveness won a championship, and that has to count for something. He definitely deserves a shot to rebuild this organization.

ChiSoxFan7
07-07-2007, 10:37 AM
I disagree. The same logic doesn't hold true for a player, so why should the person who essentially hires and fires them not be held accountable under the same standard?

When the performance of a player suffers, he's held accountable. This is true even if the previous year was an outstanding career one. Like I said in a previous post, thanks for 2005, but what have you done for me lately? Like it or not, that's how ALL of us are judged in our capital based society. Its part of our culture.

Once again, as of now, right now, KW's deserves a failing grade. In my eyes, to add to that, he seems to be stubborn and/or unwilling to make a course correction or accept fault. But.......to steal the words of another poster, the next week or two will show the real stuff of which KW is made of.

Here's hoping that he can put us on a smoother course.

the only thing that is different with GMs, in my mind atleast, is that it almost impoosible to make a great championship team year and year again (save the pats and spurs) so if you can have 3 years of decency/respectable then maybe a great year (i.e. 2005) it's amazing if you don't have a horrible "rebuilding" year (what i hope and pray this year is)

:praying:for some great KW rebuilding and a great '08

RockJock07
07-07-2007, 01:01 PM
I am tired of this defense EVERY time a manager, coach or GM discussion starts up.

It makes sense... but when doesn't it? If the team goes 0-162 would the front office ever be pitching????

Your taking this to an extreme and more importantly are missing the point.

My point is that Kenny and Ozzie can't be blame for getting their *** beat in a Double header. This season was banked on a bullpen that looked good on paper and an offense that was the best in baseball for 2+ years.

At some point the players have to be held accountable. Konerko, Dye, Thome, Aardsma, Gooch were coming off of solid seasons. Konerko 40+ HR, Dye, near MVP, Thome 40+ HR.

I liked this off-season. McCarthy is bad and is a pansy. Garcia is bad and fat. I love Erstad and lets stop using the word "banking" because KW didn't bring him in to start, he was supposed to be a back-up. I didn't like Kenny bringing back Pods and Uribe. Trading for Sisco wasn't a bad move because Gload never saw the field anyway. What's cotts doing now? The players that kenny brought in aren't living up to expectations, but it's not like he gave up Cy Young or an potential MVP.

In hindsight, we can all monday morning QB but most of us beleived that the offsense would mash and we would get average to above average pitching. I didn't think the WS was in the cards but as most of you have said, Kenny's will be tested this next month. If you give up a MB, you better get something damn good in return. Dye and Contrares need to be gone, and his off-season needs to be solid aswell. As far as Ozzie goes, he needs to make his players look like they give a damn. I like both Kenny and Ozzie, but they have alot to still do before this season is over and into the off-season.

chitownhawkfan
07-07-2007, 01:38 PM
Here are my mid-term grades for his 2007:

Bullpen - a good plan simply backfired. A (effort) plus F (results) = C

If that bullpen is a C i'd hate to see what an F would be.

chitownhawkfan
07-07-2007, 01:42 PM
But I still think Kenny is doing a good job, I like his aggressive style, even when it misses. To me his legacy might hinge on signing buehrle, if he lets him go I could see how he becomes public enemy number 1 among the media, maybe even more than ozzie.

By the way Domeshot great sig :thumbsup:

santo=dorf
07-07-2007, 02:10 PM
A+

I trust management's decisions more than any of yours. How many World Series have you won? Thought so.
KW made the perfect offseason moves paying the perfect price but it's not working out due to flukiness and injuries. That's not his fault. How was he supposed to know Pods, Erstad and Crede were supposed to end of on the DL? KW can't control players playing badly. Neither can the coaches. Everybody gets an A for effort. :smile:


























:tealpolice:

Juice16
07-07-2007, 02:44 PM
Perfect offseason moves? I give the players 75% of the blame because they have put the team in position to win several times and Kenny's perfect offseason bullpen blew it. B+ for Erstad and Danks trade, D- for bullpen make up including the Gload trade. Total = C

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2007, 03:22 PM
For your further wikipediance (indisputable knowledge)I must take exception to the concept of Wikipedia being indisputable knowledge. I won't even let my students cite it as a source because it is inherently unreliable.





Damn it!

I invented a word and still managed to use it improperly!

...unless of course "ninjaly" can also mean cunningly, with extreme calculation.

Nellie? You're the professor...I have no problem with that alternate definition.

You do realize that you misspelled it. The noun form is ninja. The adjectival form, therefore, would be ninjal, making the adverbial form ninjally.Yeah, I knew that. I initially spelled it as ninjally, but then I figured since I didn't make up the word, I didn't have the right to change the spelling.:tongue:

jabrch
07-07-2007, 03:33 PM
To me his legacy might hinge on signing buehrle,

In my eyes, his legacy was cemented in October of 2005. Anything else is pure gravy.

Tragg
07-07-2007, 04:24 PM
If we don't trade Dye, do you think he will by a Type A or a Type B FA?

It is based on 2 years of numbers, right? So he'd have a shot at being a Type A despite how bad this year was.

I think it depends on the other in the class...some percentage is A, some percentage is B. So you could be an A, but if you came out in a tougher year, it would be a B.

If he's an A, wouldn't a team have to forego picks? I would doubt any team would do that for some of these players. Is there a period of time, after which, the compensation is null - i.e. there is none?

As for Williams and Ozzie, winning a WS is their legacy - they can't lose that (like Ditka - even though he was a complete and utter idiot in New Orleans, his legacy in the NFL is as a super bowl winning coach). I think KW's still a good GM and will bring in better players.

I'm far more concerned with this manager and his staff's ability to or interest in developing a young baseball game.

jabrch
07-07-2007, 04:35 PM
I think it depends on the other in the class...some percentage is A, some percentage is B. So you could be an A, but if you came out in a tougher year, it would be a B.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that it isn't in comparison to the FA class, it is ranked vs overall MLB population.

If he's an A, wouldn't a team have to forego picks? I would doubt any team would do that for some of these players. Is there a period of time, after which, the compensation is null - i.e. there is none?

Yes, if he is an A or a B a team would have to give up their first pick outside of the top 15 overall. If he is an A, we'd get an additional supplemental 1st round pick. You'd be absolutely shocked at the players who are signed, and who teams have to compensate for. Jermaine, even after this year, will have many suitors coming after him early. I'd bet my leg that he is signed before the deadline (I think it is sometime in February). Star players almost never remain unsigned that long.

I'm far more concerned with this manager and his staff's ability to or interest in developing a young baseball game.

I share your concern. I'll give him the benefit of the (mounting) doubt.

Tragg
07-07-2007, 05:24 PM
Yes, if he is an A or a B a team would have to give up their first pick outside of the top 15 overall. If he is an A, we'd get an additional supplemental 1st round pick.

Do you remember what class he was when we signed him?

santo=dorf
07-07-2007, 06:45 PM
Do you remember what class he was when we signed him?
I don't recall it ever being mentioned because the A's didn't offer arbitration.

balke
07-07-2007, 07:52 PM
This poll is pretty close.

I think Kenny has made the right decision in every trade he's ever made. I just think injuries, and a bad farm system have caught up to him. I even approve of CLee being traded, because the Sox were in need of a leadoff hitter and reliever at the time. Plus the Sox were saving money to keep other good players around and acquire Dye, Pierzynski, etc. He's done great, this mess is no fault of his.

wilburwood
07-08-2007, 07:59 AM
I supported management all the way back to and including the white flag trade. If the Buehrle deal does not get done my support STOPS ----Period
Then management proves stubborness and inconsideration for both fans and players. I can think of no positive not signing this guy............

UserNameBlank
07-08-2007, 08:56 AM
I supported management all the way back to and including the white flag trade. If the Buehrle deal does not get done my support STOPS ----Period
Then management proves stubborness and inconsideration for both fans and players. I can think of no positive not signing this guy............
But that means you care more about an individual player than the team...

The messed up part is that the Sox are actually smart enough to realize that:

1.) A pitcher of Mark Buehrle's caliber in today's market is worth much more than Mark is willing to accept.
2.) A #3/#4 starter is worth 10+ million per season.
3.) The team can afford Mark Buehrle's contract even after slashing payroll.
4.) The fans love Mark and would be very, very angry if he is not brought back.
5.) Trading Mark now will not likely bring back an elite prospect because he will not provide a window for negotiation.
6.) The prospects KW gets for Mark are unproven almost always disappoint in the majors if they even make it to the majors to begin with.
7.) Refusing to make this deal with Mark casts a negative light on the organization in the eyes of the players themselves.

Obviously they know all this yet they still keep coming up with excuses. It's like they are determined to drop a giant turd into the mouth of the fanbase simply for giggles.

Hendu
07-08-2007, 12:34 PM
I'm not going to judge KW on what he does with Buehrle, but how he rebuilds the team. If he re-signs Mark and we suck for the next few years, is that better than if he trades Mark and we're back in the race the next few years?

For a GM, all that matters is building a winning team, not hanging onto popular players. But if he can re-sign Buehrle AND build a competitive team, then even better.