PDA

View Full Version : *Official* Oh Poopie 7.06.07 Postgame Thread


CubsfansareDRUNK
07-06-2007, 11:13 PM
wow...

Viva Medias B's
07-06-2007, 11:14 PM
Cripes!

It's Time
07-06-2007, 11:14 PM
WOW!!:o:

MrX
07-06-2007, 11:15 PM
:anon:

Gavin Floyd, your bus back to Charlotte is now boarding

CanBuehrleWait
07-06-2007, 11:16 PM
3 postgame choices eh. This thread most expresses my general angst though. Agreed blow this **** up :angry::angry::angry:

nccwsfan
07-06-2007, 11:17 PM
Put today's games in a time capsule, bury it 2 miles underground, and let's never speak of this again....

Seriously- I'm hopeful that KW will start bringing in some fresh faces this weekend. This is a dead team walking.

Viva Medias B's
07-06-2007, 11:17 PM
:anon:

Gavin Floyd, your bus back to Charlotte is now boarding

And take Bukvich with you too.

LongLiveFisk
07-06-2007, 11:18 PM
I passed up the chance to go to this game for FREE tonight. Obviously I made the right choice! :mad:

Bucky F. Dent
07-06-2007, 11:19 PM
Call up Sweeney and Anderson tomorrow, please.

This season is over.

DSpivack
07-06-2007, 11:20 PM
Got to be amongst the worst days in the long history of this franchise.

mccoydp
07-06-2007, 11:20 PM
I'm glad I didn't bite for two $55.00 tickets at Oriole Park on the 15th to see this joke of a team. Good Lord, Kenny, do something quickly!

Yikes! :o:

TheCommander
07-06-2007, 11:21 PM
Call up Sweeney and Anderson tomorrow, please.

This season is over.

But we have half a season left!

Jurr
07-06-2007, 11:22 PM
Dearest Minnesota Twins:

Thank you for the 32 runs that you hung on our beloved White Sox today. After the Tampa Bay and KC series, we had a slight belief that our team may have been coming out of their doldrums, and that there was a small chance that the '05-'07 Sox era may end on a good note. We thought that there could have been a chance to keep the core of this team together, and that this team was worth keeping intact.

After the thorough humiliation you subjected our Sox to in this doubleheader, you have made it very clear how little this team cares about their performance this season. They are unable to hit, to field their positions, and to rally back from adversity. They simply do not care. This clearly shows the fan base of the Chicago White Sox that the era that brought us World Series glory is now over. We welcome this with open arms.

I am deeply sorry, though, that your ball club will not be enjoying similar success to that of the '05 Sox, but you have done our boys a great service.

It's time to blow it all up. You've shown us that. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Sox fans everywhere

TomParrish79
07-06-2007, 11:22 PM
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q18/DUKEDANGER/fat_girl_puking.jpg

beckett21
07-06-2007, 11:23 PM
What an absolute disgrace. This team has become a laughingstock.

Hopefully Buehrle and Vazquez can at least save face for the rest of the series.

Tragg
07-06-2007, 11:24 PM
We haven't lost this series yet...more baseball left to play.



Parish, that's the nastiest picture I've ever seen - and I can't stop laughing.

MrX
07-06-2007, 11:24 PM
Losing 12-0 is bad.

Losing 12-0 when the other team is forced to have their pitcher bat while you still have your DH is pathetic.

TomParrish79
07-06-2007, 11:25 PM
We haven't lost this series yet...more baseball left to play.



Parish, that's the nastiest picture I've ever seen - and I can't stop laughing.

Yeah i am still laughing too...i figured it might cheer a few people up

mwc44
07-06-2007, 11:25 PM
I'm glad I didn't bite for two $55.00 tickets at Oriole Park on the 15th to see this joke of a team. Good Lord, Kenny, do something quickly!

Yikes! :o:

I'll be there... most likely with a black arm band around a sleeve on my road jersey. :whiner::angry::whiner:

nsolo
07-06-2007, 11:26 PM
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q18/DUKEDANGER/fat_girl_puking.jpg
So disgusting, on many levels. Just like the Sox.

Jurr
07-06-2007, 11:28 PM
What an absolute disgrace. This team has become a laughingstock.

Hopefully Buehrle and Vazquez can at least save face for the rest of the series.
In times like these you see the character of your ball club. This team responds to adversity with a hung head and a pouty lower lip. Zero backbone.

With a manager like Ozzie Guillen, you would expect to see the players try and stand up to a foe that slaps them in the face. Instead, they have resorted to laying down and letting the opposition unleash a full stream of urine upon them.

If this performance isn't a sign that the manager has lost the team, I don't know what is.

nccwsfan
07-06-2007, 11:28 PM
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q18/DUKEDANGER/fat_girl_puking.jpg

Can she throw first pitch strikes? I see 'grinder' all over this one...

mwc44
07-06-2007, 11:29 PM
Dearest Minnesota Twins:

Thank you for the 32 runs that you hung on our beloved White Sox today. After the Tampa Bay and KC series, we had a slight belief that our team may have been coming out of their doldrums, and that there was a small chance that the '05-'07 Sox era may end on a good note. We thought that there could have been a chance to keep the core of this team together, and that this team was worth keeping intact.

After the thorough humiliation you subjected our Sox to in this doubleheader, you have made it very clear how little this team cares about their performance this season. They are unable to hit, to field their positions, and to rally back from adversity. They simply do not care. This clearly shows the fan base of the Chicago White Sox that the era that brought us World Series glory is now over. We welcome this with open arms.

I am deeply sorry, though, that your ball club will not be enjoying similar success to that of the '05 Sox, but you have done our boys a great service.

It's time to blow it all up. You've shown us that. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Sox fans everywhere

With deepest regrets for the 2007 season, I nominate this for POTY!

Well stated, Jurr.

Tragg
07-06-2007, 11:30 PM
I think the Sox played better in game 2 than in game 1.

Improvement.

nsolo
07-06-2007, 11:30 PM
Can she throw first pitch strikes? I see 'grinder' all over this one...
Not a problem. She just gets a little nervous before each game. A real grinder.

beckett21
07-06-2007, 11:31 PM
In times like these you see the character of your ball club. This team responds to adversity with a hung head and a pouty lower lip. Zero backbone.

With a manager like Ozzie Guillen, you would expect to see the players try and stand up to a foe that slaps them in the face. Instead, they have resorted to laying down and letting the opposition unleash a full stream of urine upon them.

If this performance isn't a sign that the manager hasn't lost the team, I don't know what is.

Ozzie's body language indicates to me that he has pretty much given up on this group and this season. He just looks like he has no idea what to do anymore.

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-06-2007, 11:32 PM
:angry::angry::angry: I just realized the twins ****ING PITCHER can execute a bunt better than any ****ING player on the whole Sox team. BLOW IT ALL ****ING UP!

VenturaFan23
07-06-2007, 11:32 PM
Again, I find myself wondering after getting home....why did I go see this ****?

Viva Medias B's
07-06-2007, 11:32 PM
I think the Sox played better in game 2 than in game 1.

Improvement.

Yeah, we gave up six fewer runs. At this rate, we'll only give up 4 runs tomorrow and -4 runs on Sunday! Then again, we may only score -14 on Saturday and -28 on Sunday.

Jurr
07-06-2007, 11:33 PM
Not a problem. She just gets a little nervous before each game. A real grinder.
I think she may have eaten one too many grinders, though the contents look more like a Wendy's frosty than anything. Maybe mudslides or white russians? Who can know these things?

TomParrish79
07-06-2007, 11:33 PM
Not a problem. She just gets a little nervous before each game. A real grinder.

And the longer she goes...the more chance there is she might get a little raw...

Corlose 15
07-06-2007, 11:33 PM
This team is pathetic. What an absolute joke. I can't believe they've fallen this far in only 2 seasons. Sign Buehrle then start the trading Kenny. You can start with Contreras and Dye.

JB98
07-06-2007, 11:33 PM
I think the Sox played better in game 2 than in game 1.

Improvement.

I actually thought they played better in Game 1. They played a full nine innings in the opener. They didn't play them well, but they kept trying. Game 2 was a surrender.

We lost Game 1 by six runs. We lost Game 2 by 12.

MrX
07-06-2007, 11:34 PM
They just said on the postgame show that it looks like Floyd will be sticking around for the rest of the season:o:

RockJock07
07-06-2007, 11:35 PM
Got to be amongst the worst days in the long history of this franchise.

Yep, HAS TO BE. 32 runs in 2 games, you have got to be kidding. Talk about just an *** beating. This team is the laughing stock of the league. 14 runs in game one then nothing 3 hours later. This team needs to be blown up now! I'm so disappointed, no words can really describe this day.

If Contreras or Dye make another start, I'm boycotting the rest of the season. SOMETHING HAS TO CHANGE!. wow.........just wow!

Corlose 15
07-06-2007, 11:37 PM
They just said on the postgame show that it looks like Floyd will be sticking around for the rest of the season:o:

I have absolutely no problem with that provided he's not taking Buehrle's place. He has done very well in AAA and its not like he's going to be taken anyone's spot that's done any well.

The season is already lost lets see what he's got. Tell him to forget about today and go forward.

JB98
07-06-2007, 11:37 PM
They just said on the postgame show that it looks like Floyd will be sticking around for the rest of the season:o:

Blessing in disguise. He'll **** away the opportunity and make KW realize that acquisition was a mistake.

Jurr
07-06-2007, 11:38 PM
The Ranger just called this season a collective failure.

Ever the champion of understatement.

Viva Medias B's
07-06-2007, 11:39 PM
They just said on the postgame show that it looks like Floyd will be sticking around for the rest of the season:o:

Like that matters now.

nsolo
07-06-2007, 11:39 PM
:angry::angry::angry: I just realized the twins ****ING PITCHER can execute a bunt better than any ****ING player on the whole Sox team. BLOW IT ALL ****ING UP!

I don't know if I should thank you or curse you pointing out this fact to me, but you're correct on both point. An American League pitcher can bunt better than anyone on our team, and its time to provide a bit of release for the frustrated fans. Blow it up, please!!! Just do something.

The Oz has the deer in the headlights look, the team had the hang dog look, and there's dark clouds on the horizon when looking for help from the farm system. Blow it up. Twice.

Corlose 15
07-06-2007, 11:39 PM
Blessing in disguise. He'll **** away the opportunity and make KW realize that acquisition was a mistake.

How so?

Palehose Pete
07-06-2007, 11:39 PM
Bye, Mark, JD and Tad.

Thanks for the memories and the '05 season.

Now, KW, blow it all up and start over. The Sox will survive this and emerge a stronger organization.

JB98
07-06-2007, 11:41 PM
How so?

My personal opinion is that Gavin Floyd doesn't have what it takes. If he makes 14 more starts or whatever this year, I'll be proven right or wrong.

If I'm proven right, we won't have to waste 2008 hoping Gavin Floyd is the answer.

If I'm wrong, then good.

RockJock07
07-06-2007, 11:44 PM
I'm willing to give Gavin a pass, this is his first start, but Garland, the Bullpen, and the offense, where was the desire to win, or at least score a damn run.

In all seriousness, how long will Kenny wait to make some moves. He's talking about it all over the paper, just do something then!

Corlose 15
07-06-2007, 11:44 PM
My personal opinion is that Gavin Floyd doesn't have what it takes. If he makes 14 more starts or whatever this year, I'll be proven right or wrong.

If I'm proven right, we won't have to waste 2008 hoping Gavin Floyd is the answer.

If I'm wrong, then good.

Fair enough. I'm just glad we don't have to watch Freddy's arm fall off this year. I'm optimistic, for the first time in a couple years he's had some success in the minors. He said in an article the other day that this is the best he's felt on the mound in a couple years, unfortunately it didn't work out for him today. I like that they're giving him another chance though because they really have nothing to lose.

I mean, if you're going to suck you might as well go all out and get a top ten draft pick for the first time in 17 years.

Viva Medias B's
07-06-2007, 11:47 PM
I mean, if you're going to suck you might as well go all out and get a top ten draft pick for the first time in 17 years.

Q: Who was that draft pick?
A: Alex Fernandez.

Right?

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-06-2007, 11:47 PM
I don't know if I should thank you or curse you pointing out this fact to me, but you're correct on both point. An American League pitcher can bunt better than anyone on our team, and its time to provide a bit of release for the frustrated fans. Blow it up, please!!! Just do something.

The Oz has the deer in the headlights look, the team had the hang dog look, and there's dark clouds on the horizon when looking for help from the farm system. Blow it up. Twice.

I agree. I mean, the way things are going right now with THIS TEAM...just do something!!

RockJock07
07-06-2007, 11:47 PM
Wait, do we see Santana on Sunday? That would take the cake

beckett21
07-06-2007, 11:49 PM
Wait, do we see Santana on Sunday? That would take the cake

Bonser tomorrow, Silva on Sunday. Winnable games for sure.

Hendu
07-06-2007, 11:52 PM
Kenny, work those phones!

I had tix to both of these games, but was only able to make the second one. Wish I had just gone home after work instead.

Gotta love having the opposing pitcher batting for most of the game. Just adds to the humiliation.

DeadMoney
07-07-2007, 12:00 AM
This about explains it:

:mg:......:puking:......:anon:......:help:...... :dunno: ......:roflmao:!

eriqjaffe
07-07-2007, 12:03 AM
Bonser tomorrow, Silva on Sunday. Winnable games for sure.At this point, the Sox could be playing against the Plainfield JV squad and I would hesitate to call the game "winnable."

Hitmen77
07-07-2007, 12:10 AM
Bye, Mark, JD and Tad.

Thanks for the memories and the '05 season.

Now, KW, blow it all up and start over. The Sox will survive this and emerge a stronger organization.

If the Sox plan is to let Buehrle go and replace him next year with Gavin Floyd, I really have a hard time seeing how this will make the Sox a stronger organization.

...and don't fool yourselves into thinking that the money freed up by letting Mark walk is going to plug that many holes on this team. Likely, it won't even offset the huge hole that we'll be creating in our starting rotation.

ChetChat
07-07-2007, 12:10 AM
I have to say, worst game I've been to in the past 5 years.
And I'm talking about game 2!
What a joke.
At least the fireworks were good, obviously we'll have a LOT left over this year since we're NOT using them for homeruns and victories.

Oldschoolsoxguy
07-07-2007, 12:13 AM
Even when you think that this ****ing season couldn't get any worse...then comes today.The thing that i don't get is how this team could take a double beating and not do a thing about it.No heart AND no balls.They should have been out there brawling with those damn twinks at one pont or another today.Just ****ing pathetic.When did our team become so cub-like ?

JB98
07-07-2007, 12:18 AM
Even when you think that this ****ing season couldn't get any worse...then comes today.The thing that i don't get is how this team could take a double beating and not do a thing about it.No heart AND no balls.They should have been out there brawling with those damn twinks at one pont or another today.Just ****ing pathetic.When did our team become so cub-like ?

I think Ozzie loves the Twins too much to order a brushback pitch. He admires the way they play the game and wishes we would play like them.

I don't like the way our team responds to adversity. Namely, they don't respond well. That's how we ended up with a 22 out of 27 losing streak. They pout and mope when things go badly, instead of coming out and fighting for each other.

Brian26
07-07-2007, 12:19 AM
Best line of the day was when the Sox were trying to battle back in the 9th inning of Game 1. Fields got to second base when it was 20-11. I was trying to figure out how many guys in-the-hole would be the tying run. IlSox7 says, "Fields standing on 2nd base is the tying run...AFTER EVERYONE ELSE IN THE LINEUP BATS AROUND AND SCORES IN FRONT OF HIM."

UserNameBlank
07-07-2007, 12:30 AM
Overall Gavin looked like an entirely different pitcher from the one we saw in ST. He did walk four but he was in the strikezone a lot more and didn't look all that rattled on the mound. A few of those curveballs he threw up there looked unhittable and his fastball looked pretty crisp when he wasn't serving it up over the middle of the plate. Hopefully someone is traded and Gavin is given a shot in the rotation for the rest of the year. If he can't figure out how to get major league hitters out by the end of the season it is time to officially call him a total bust.

thomas35forever
07-07-2007, 12:33 AM
http://www.culturekitchen.com/files/images/goodgrief_0.gif

Parrothead
07-07-2007, 12:34 AM
Overall Gavin looked like an entirely different pitcher from the one we saw in ST. He did walk four but he was in the strikezone a lot more and didn't look all that rattled on the mound. A few of those curveballs he threw up there looked unhittable and his fastball looked pretty crisp when he wasn't serving it up over the middle of the plate. Hopefully someone is traded and Gavin is given a shot in the rotation for the rest of the year. If he can't figure out how to get major league hitters out by the end of the season it is time to officially call him a total bust.

Besides being shot how did you like the play Mr. Lincoln? He blew tonight.

UserNameBlank
07-07-2007, 12:43 AM
Besides being shot how did you like the play Mr. Lincoln? He blew tonight.
Yeah he sucked but he didn't suck as bad as he did in ST, so that is improvement anyway.

DannyCaterFan
07-07-2007, 12:48 AM
I can't believe I sat through both of these games today! Never in my 46 years of attending Sox games, have i felt so violated! There is no fight in this team, and Ozzie has lost the team as well.

ChiSox Fan 68
07-07-2007, 12:58 AM
I just got off the L, coming back from the game, surrounded by Twins fans. It just can't much worse than today...can it????

AzureJazzMan
07-07-2007, 01:00 AM
It was mentioned previously, but after the thrashing that was today's "double header", I feel it should be re-stated.

This team has no heart, no courage, no strength, no will, and sadly (this is the toughest one) no pride.

"Sox Pride" is no longer a stock in trade for the people that fill the roles as players in the home team dugout at U.S. Cellular Field. It left the park like so many Twins homeruns this evening. In my time as being a fan of this team, I do not recall such an apathetic bunch, with less desire to compete, than the 2007 version of the Chicago White Sox.

It is truly a sad day on the Southside. I can only hope that severe changes will be made in that clubhouse, and within the corporate chain of command.

There is no Pride in this group of guys on the Southside...and this season has become a pathetic loss.

Parrothead
07-07-2007, 01:07 AM
I can't believe I sat through both of these games today! Never in my 46 years of attending Sox games, have i felt so violated! There is no fight in this team, and Ozzie has lost the team as well.

You Sir should get a medal.

http://images.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_SM/0037-0408-2220-3645_SM.jpg (http://www.acclaimimages.com/usepolicy.html)

HotelWhiteSox
07-07-2007, 01:07 AM
No shock, Floyd was Phi's Borchard, and after watching ST, he didn't have the mental makeup to handle situations in those games, so I had no expectations for his big league starts, hated him coming in a Freddy deal

HotelWhiteSox
07-07-2007, 01:12 AM
Fair enough. I'm just glad we don't have to watch Freddy's arm fall off this year. I'm optimistic, for the first time in a couple years he's had some success in the minors. He said in an article the other day that this is the best he's felt on the mound in a couple years, unfortunately it didn't work out for him today. I like that they're giving him another chance though because they really have nothing to lose.


Freddy had to go but I'm sure other teams other than Philly might've been interested, especially if you wait a little longer, maybe closer to spring, and teams scramble when their starters get hurt. I guess you trust Kenny in what he could get since we don't know what's going on, but then you hear he was about to trade Garland for a package that (with waiting a week, like I wanted him to wait a little instead of jumping on a Winter Meetings deal), was obtained with fricken Jason Jennings

jabrch
07-07-2007, 01:23 AM
I passed up the chance to go to this game for FREE tonight. Obviously I made the right choice! :mad:


Looks like most of the team passed on the chance to come to this game tonight. Who the heck was that out there?

Oldschoolsoxguy
07-07-2007, 01:43 AM
If Ozzie respects Gardenhire and the Twinks so much that he takes it from the backside like his team did tonight,well...screw that,then he needs to go to.If that's the case then he's not doing his part.I don't blame Oz for the players not performing,that's on them all the way.Guillen can't play for them.But he is supposed to set some kind of example in terms of how they should want it like he says he does.If you want a hardnose ballclub that won't take any ****,then stop kissing the other team's ass and telling everyone how much you like their style of play.Send your guys out there and tell them to knock the other ss into left field the first chance you get.Tell your pitcher that after Justin Morneau has already hit a couple into the seats today that the next pitch should be at his ribs.Tell them that when Nick ****ing Punto takes a shot at our second baseman like he did the last time we played these dicks in Minnesota,that stinkhole gets his ass steamrolled the first chance we get.And the next play at home plate,close or not,Joe Mauer gets slammed like Jamie Burke did when Torii Hunter got him a couple years back.Then we'll see how much Ron Gardenhire thinks of our team.Then we'd find out how much he would like "our style of play".
My guess is that he wouldn't like it at all and would say so.

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2007, 01:46 AM
My personal opinion is that Gavin Floyd doesn't have what it takes. If he makes 14 more starts or whatever this year, I'll be proven right or wrong.

If I'm proven right, we won't have to waste 2008 hoping Gavin Floyd is the answer.

If I'm wrong, then good.Nothing like the "I can't lose" proposition. "If Floyd sucks, I get to say I'm right. If he's great, I get to say I'm happy."

If Ozzie respects Gardenhire and the Twinks so much that he takes it from the backside like his team did tonight,well...screw that,then he needs to go to.If that's the case then he's not doing his part.I don't blame Oz for the players not performing,that's on them all the way.Guillen can't play for them.But he is supposed to set some kind of example in terms of how they should want it like he says he does.If you want a hardnose ballclub that won't take any ****,then stop kissing the other team's ass and telling everyone how much you like their style of play.Send your guys out there and tell them to knock the other ss into left field the first chance you get.Tell your pitcher that after Justin Morneau has already hit a couple into the seats today that the next pitch should be at his ribs.Tell them that when Nick ****ing Punto takes a shot at our second baseman like he did the last time we played these dicks in Minnesota,that stinkhole gets his ass steamrolled the first chance we get.And the next play at home plate,close or not,Joe Mauer gets slammed like Jamie Burke did when Torii Hunter got him a couple years back.Then we'll see how much Ron Gardenhire thinks of our team.Then we'd find out how much he would like "our style of play".
My guess is that he wouldn't like it at all and would say so.Man, that was hard to read.

A space after punctuation and an occasional paragraph helps.

JB98
07-07-2007, 02:01 AM
Nothing like the "I can't lose" proposition. "If Floyd sucks, I get to say I'm right. If he's great, I get to say I'm happy."

Well, what do you want me to do? Lie and say I like Gavin Floyd and think he's the next big thing on the South Side?

I think the guy sucks. I've been proven wrong several times before. I'll eat crow if I have to. I ate crow after criticizing the Carlos Lee trade.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 02:16 AM
I don't know about you guys, but I've been pretty desensitized to the suckiness of this team for a few weeks now so this didn't hurt nearly as bad as it would've, say, this time last year. Was it pathetic? Oh yeah. But it was just more of the same, sadly. But it still hurt a little because that was WAY below the standards of even this team.

I actually thought it was funny, I laughed... at the fact that Morneau had more hits and RBI all by himself than the Sox had for the whole game, at every Twins home run. I couldn't help it. I mean what else could I do?

I feel bad for Garland though, he sucked so terribly that he almost shot his ERA into the 4s from the low 3s in just over 3 innings.

letsgosox1592
07-07-2007, 02:22 AM
No shock, Floyd was Phi's Borchard, and after watching ST, he didn't have the mental makeup to handle situations in those games, so I had no expectations for his big league starts, hated him coming in a Freddy deal

come on you got to give him a break. hes still very young and he never really has been given a chance. sounds familar with brian anderson. as for gavin he will be with this team for the rest of the year because i dont know if you heard buehrle was seen packing up stuff from his locker and i am willing to bet that it will be his last start with the sox. Gavin Floyd will be a good mlb pitcher but nothing special. he will be a #3 or 4 starter for years to come.

IronFisk
07-07-2007, 03:12 AM
Gavin Floyd will be a good mlb pitcher but nothing special. he will be a #3 or 4 starter for years to come.

Oh, but that gives me SO much hope for our future!

IowaSox1971
07-07-2007, 03:21 AM
If Ozzie respects Gardenhire and the Twinks so much that he takes it from the backside like his team did tonight,well...screw that,then he needs to go to.If that's the case then he's not doing his part.I don't blame Oz for the players not performing,that's on them all the way.Guillen can't play for them.But he is supposed to set some kind of example in terms of how they should want it like he says he does.If you want a hardnose ballclub that won't take any ****,then stop kissing the other team's ass and telling everyone how much you like their style of play.Send your guys out there and tell them to knock the other ss into left field the first chance you get.Tell your pitcher that after Justin Morneau has already hit a couple into the seats today that the next pitch should be at his ribs.Tell them that when Nick ****ing Punto takes a shot at our second baseman like he did the last time we played these dicks in Minnesota,that stinkhole gets his ass steamrolled the first chance we get.And the next play at home plate,close or not,Joe Mauer gets slammed like Jamie Burke did when Torii Hunter got him a couple years back.Then we'll see how much Ron Gardenhire thinks of our team.Then we'd find out how much he would like "our style of play".
My guess is that he wouldn't like it at all and would say so.


I agree that Ozzie's admiring the Twins too much. When the Twins pull a questionable play, such as when Hunter bowled over Burke or Punto taking a shot at our second baseman, Ozzie does not defend our players. When A.J. is accused of trying to step on Morneau's foot in Minnesota, Ozzie does not defend him either. If you don't stick up for your players, they aren't going to provide that extra effort for you. In very few games this season has it looked like we were trying harder than the other team. It definitely is the manager's fault when that happens.

JimmyJoe
07-07-2007, 03:23 AM
This is the longest day EVER for Sox fans.

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2007, 03:25 AM
This is the longest day EVER for Sox fans.Well, it's right up there.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 03:26 AM
Well, the last few weeks of 2006 seemed pretty ****ing long to me. I had trouble letting go of the fact that they really weren't going to make the playoffs, so I watched almost to the very end.

The Dude
07-07-2007, 03:53 AM
Blessing in disguise. He'll **** away the opportunity and make KW realize that acquisition was a mistake.

And Freddy is doing great over in Phily?? Get a ****ing clue. Floyd is a AAA all-star who **** his pants today. This game doesn't determine his fate as a failure. The only failure here are your comments.

oeo
07-07-2007, 03:59 AM
And Freddy is doing great over in Phily?? Get a ****ing clue. Floyd is a AAA all-star who **** his pants today. This game doesn't determine his fate as a failure. The only failure here are your comments.

People still fail to realize that Freddy Garcia was damaged goods. He was a 1-year rental, and on the decline. We got good value for him, stop whining.

QCIASOXFAN
07-07-2007, 04:11 AM
God we Mod edit: Just because the language filter allows it doesn't mean you should say it. Some words have more than one meaning and thus can't be put in the language filters. Re-read the parts of "what every WSI poster should know" about keeping your language acceptable for a wide audience..:(: I can't wait to leave Iowa in two weeks.:(:

Grzegorz
07-07-2007, 05:47 AM
Thirty-two runs scored against; I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it with my own eyes.

Let us hope the moves that are going to be made bring some hope to the fans of this team. I'd hate to see the Chicago White Sox slip back to secondary citizen status in this city and have their title viewed as an anomaly.

Look at it this way, it cannot get any worse right???

Railsplitter
07-07-2007, 08:11 AM
:angry: :cuss::mad:

Need I say more?

WSox597
07-07-2007, 09:43 AM
Well, that was embarrassing to watch.

My brother the Cub fan called moments after game one chortling about the Vikings beating the Bears 20-14. He was greatly amused.

What could I say? It was a disgrace. I couldn't even defend the effort. All I could do was laugh with him.

Fenway
07-07-2007, 09:58 AM
I watched the last couple of innings in complete amazement. Was it a fireworks night last night because the crowd for the most part stayed.

I can't remember a good team falling apart this quickly since the 1997-8 Orioles.

PeoriaSoxFan
07-07-2007, 10:04 AM
And take Bukvich with you too.

And Masset, and Day, and Logan, and the other 5 + minor leaguers onthis roster. This is flat our pathetic.

tick53
07-07-2007, 10:05 AM
Call up Sweeney and Anderson tomorrow, please.

This season is over.

Absolutely Bucky...I've seen enough infielders in the outfield and Jerry Owens will never be a lead-off man. Bring 'em up, let's see what they've got. This season is over anyway. I can't hardly watch this anymore.

Jjav829
07-07-2007, 10:07 AM
Nothing like the "I can't lose" proposition. "If Floyd sucks, I get to say I'm right. If he's great, I get to say I'm happy."


What's so wrong with that? Should JB98 be upset if Floyd ends up being a decent starter because he was proven wrong?

FWIW, I'll feel the same way. I think Floyd is a bad pitcher and will never amount to anything. That said, I'd love for him to prove me wrong because it would help the Sox. I'm not going to root for him to fail just because it would justify my opinion.

PeoriaSoxFan
07-07-2007, 10:08 AM
Well, what do you want me to do? Lie and say I like Gavin Floyd and think he's the next big thing on the South Side?

I think the guy sucks. I've been proven wrong several times before. I'll eat crow if I have to. I ate crow after criticizing the Carlos Lee trade.

I agree with you. Floyd does suck. Look at his career numbers, this wasn't his first MLB start. He has a track record, albeit early, of being pretty bad. He gives up too many walks and HRs, not a prescription for success. Sure, it is too early to call him a total bust, but I believe one MLB team has already given up on him.

Jerko
07-07-2007, 10:12 AM
Damn I'm already in football mode but that didn't mean I wanted to see 20-14 and 12-0 scores yesterday.

tick53
07-07-2007, 10:13 AM
Thirty-two runs scored against; I wouldn't believe it if I didn't see it with my own eyes.

Let us hope the moves that are going to be made bring some hope to the fans of this team. I'd hate to see the Chicago White Sox slip back to secondary citizen status in this city and have their title viewed as an anomaly.

Look at it this way, it cannot get any worse right???

I have a feeling that the way the Sox are playing that they will slip back behind the other team. What a tragedy! The Sox had the chance to once again own this great city for a long time. They let Scott Boras scare them away from the good players (and he gets most of them) and refuse to sign pitchers to long term deals. I would be ashamed of myself if I was responsible for letting the Sox return to the "small market". That completely enrages me.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2007, 10:13 AM
Seriously... I wouldn't read too much into ANYTHING the Sox ballplayers do between now and next March.

This is GARBAGE TIME. The games -- and thus the performances -- are meaningless.

Sort out the roster. Sure, play some kids. But don't think for a moment it means much of anything because no matter how well they play (or don't play), the pressure is off and NOBODY has proven **** while the games still mattered.

It's garbage time. Nothing is worth getting upset about because you can't change the fact that it's garbage time.

Fenway
07-07-2007, 10:19 AM
They let Scott Boras scare them away from the good players (and he gets most of them) and refuse to sign pitchers to long term deals. I would be ashamed of myself if I was responsible for letting the Sox return to the "small market". That completely enrages me.


The Boras boycott could cripple the Sox long term. If you are a hot shot prospect who would you want to be an agent.

Boras has a scouting system in place that may be better than any team in baseball....he knows who the can't miss players are and locks them up.

It was obvious when I was in Chicago in 2006 that at least in the city proper the White Sox had caught the Cubs. You could see White Sox gear all over the North Side.

Now all that was gained maybe lost

tick53
07-07-2007, 10:25 AM
The Boras boycott could cripple the Sox long term. If you are a hot shot prospect who would you want to be an agent.

Boras has a scounting system in place that may be better than any team in baseball....he knows who the can't miss players are and locks them up.

It was obvious when I was in Chicago in 2006 that at least in the city proper the White Sox had caught the Cubs. You could see White Sox gear all over the North Side.

Now all that was gained maybe lost

Well put Fen!

Hendu
07-07-2007, 10:38 AM
Sort out the roster. Sure, play some kids. But don't think for a moment it means much of anything because no matter how well they play (or don't play), the pressure is off and NOBODY has proven **** while the games still mattered.


While the pressure is off for veterans, the pressure of securing a major league spot is on the kids. I just want to see something that will at least give us some hope for next year and beyond.

wassagstdu
07-07-2007, 10:44 AM
When A.J. is accused of trying to step on Morneau's foot in Minnesota, Ozzie does not defend him either.
Did Morneau pull the same stunt (blocking part of the bag on a close play) when ARod got injured? HOW can you let that guy hit 3 homers and not drill him?

As for Ozzie's praise of the Twins, if his team had any pride that would have made them want to go out and humiliate the Twins. He tried, they don't, they didn't.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2007, 10:44 AM
While the pressure is off for veterans, the pressure of securing a major league spot is on the kids. I just want to see something that will at least give us some hope for next year and beyond.

They get experience seeing major league pitchers, but that's NOT the same as producing under pressure to win a game. It's bogus.

At the big league level young ballplayers have to fight for survival ALWAYS. Getting to play during garbage time doesn't change this. If anything it deceives the rest of us into thinking marginal talent might have a big league future. See Caruso, Mike. Or Singleton, Chris.

These guys got serious ROY consideration.
:o:

Fenway
07-07-2007, 11:02 AM
a poster on the Yankees board nyyfans.com really nailed it


And trailing 12-0 tonight. Mind you, this is WITH the pitcher hitting tonight due to the fact that they had to give up the DH when their catcher got injured.

Shows you the difference in the baseball towns. Neither NY team would ever be able to get away with such a performance like the White Sox have put out there tonight and be able to get away with it. This is type of situation where someone gets traded, cut, or just fired.


http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?p=4298357#post4298357

spiffie
07-07-2007, 11:03 AM
They get experience seeing major league pitchers, but that's NOT the same as producing under pressure to win a game. It's bogus.

At the big league level young ballplayers have to fight for survival ALWAYS. Getting to play during garbage time doesn't change this. If anything it deceives the rest of us into thinking marginal talent might have a big league future. See Caruso, Mike. Or Singleton, Chris.

These guys got serious ROY consideration.
:o:
I tend to agree about the idea that we should remain skeptical of anyone who does perform well during these next few months, but on the flipside could you say that anyone who can't hack it even now, when there is no real pressure to win, probably can be assumed to be a lost cause (I'm looking at you Mr. Floyd)?

spiffie
07-07-2007, 11:05 AM
a poster on the Yankees board nyyfans.com really nailed it



http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?p=4298357#post4298357
No offense Fens, but I don't give two good hearty ****s what the self-satisfied arrogant ****wits on nyyfans, who think the whole ****ing world revolves around their overpaid team and its yearly circle-jerk with Boston. **** nyyfans, **** the Yankees, hope you enjoy watching someone else play in October as much as we do. But hey, you brought Roger back, that's historic right? Dumb****s.

ma-gaga
07-07-2007, 11:05 AM
Did Morneau pull the same stunt (blocking part of the bag on a close play) when ARod got injured? HOW can you let that guy hit 3 homers and not drill him?

Maybe you didn't see the replays, or the live game, but A-Rod clearly crashed into Morneau on the play to try and break it up. It's classic "slap the ball out of the first baseman's glove", or yell "I got it" to the third baseman A-Rod class.

It worked. A-Rod was safe on the play thanks to a high throw and his little bump, but A-Rod clearly went into Morneau.

As to your last question, if that's the way you are going to play the game, it reeks of being without class. It's sore loser baseball. It's Buck Showalter baseball. It's Bobby Valentine baseball.

If that's what you want your team to be. So be it. :cool:

Fenway
07-07-2007, 11:08 AM
No offense Fens, but I don't give two good hearty ****s what the self-satisfied arrogant ****wits on nyyfans, who think the whole ****ing world revolves around their overpaid team and its yearly circle-jerk with Boston. **** nyyfans, **** the Yankees, hope you enjoy watching someone else play in October as much as we do. But hey, you brought Roger back, that's historic right? Dumb****s.

but his point was valid....

If a debacle like yesterday happened in New York, Boston, Philly and other cities heads would roll.

I have to assume now that a lot will happen during the break to shake up the Sox

spiffie
07-07-2007, 11:14 AM
but his point was valid....

If a debacle like yesterday happened in New York, Boston, Philly and other cities heads would roll.

I have to assume now that a lot will happen during the break to shake up the Sox
And what the hell good would some sort of bull**** knee-jerk reaction do other than to appease the frothing morons on talk radio and the headline writers of a bunch of tabloids that aren't good for anything but fishwrapping? If Kenny Williams loses his mind and fires Greg Walker and Don Cooper and the Asst. Scouting Director and the batboy will this team be any better? Or will it just gives dumbasses like Mike North and the Windsock something to talk about?

Fenway
07-07-2007, 11:22 AM
And what the hell good would some sort of bull**** knee-jerk reaction do other than to appease the frothing morons on talk radio and the headline writers of a bunch of tabloids that aren't good for anything but fishwrapping? If Kenny Williams loses his mind and fires Greg Walker and Don Cooper and the Asst. Scouting Director and the batboy will this team be any better? Or will it just gives dumbasses like Mike North and the Windsock something to talk about?

The dumbasses are mild compared to the tabloids and sportsblab in the east.

A few years back you should have heard WFAN after the Yankees lost 22-0 to Cleveland

MeteorsSox4367
07-07-2007, 11:34 AM
I was there last night for the second game. Had my bosses' season tix in RF, beautiful night for baseball and the Sox flat sucked.

It was so bad toward the end of the game that my friend and I entertained ourselves by watching some of the drunk 20-something guys in front of us playfully beat the crap out of each other while their girlfriends giggled and took pictures. One kid who was drunk and had his shorts hanging low was told by some fans behind us to "pull up your shorts." He responded with a booming "Hey, (bleep) you!"

At least my boss didn't make me pay for the tickets. That game last night was just a friggin' disaster.

Hendu
07-07-2007, 12:17 PM
They get experience seeing major league pitchers, but that's NOT the same as producing under pressure to win a game. It's bogus.

At the big league level young ballplayers have to fight for survival ALWAYS. Getting to play during garbage time doesn't change this. If anything it deceives the rest of us into thinking marginal talent might have a big league future. See Caruso, Mike. Or Singleton, Chris.

These guys got serious ROY consideration.
:o:

Sure, if some kid comes up and tears the cover off the ball for the rest of the season, it doesn't mean he's the next Albert Pujols. But it's still a lot more promising than the lifeless suckage we're seeing out of the veterans, or young players looking over-matched even in garbage time.

palehozenychicty
07-07-2007, 12:18 PM
We haven't lost this series yet...more baseball left to play.



Parish, that's the nastiest picture I've ever seen - and I can't stop laughing.


Indeed. That is awful.

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2007, 12:52 PM
They get experience seeing major league pitchers, but that's NOT the same as producing under pressure to win a game. It's bogus.

At the big league level young ballplayers have to fight for survival ALWAYS. Getting to play during garbage time doesn't change this. If anything it deceives the rest of us into thinking marginal talent might have a big league future. See Caruso, Mike. Or Singleton, Chris.

These guys got serious ROY consideration.
:o:

Tell me, what is gained by playing career journeymen bench warmers during garbage time? :?:

At least when you give the garbage time at-bats to the youngsters, you can give them the experience they need against MLB opposition and allow the manager and GM to have an opportunity to observe and come to some preliminary conclusions about who might develop into the wheat, and who is the chaff. I know you're smart enough to know this, George.

Giving youngsters like Konerko, Lee and Ordonez the garbage time in 98 and 99 paid off when those players led the team to the 2000 playoffs. Playing Caruso in the garbage time of 98 and 99 allowed the Sox to know that he wasn't the answer, which led them to trade for Valentin, who contributed mightily in 2000.

Giving garbage time to youngsters like Ventura and McDowell in 89 and Fernandez and Thomas late in 90 paid dividends when those players formed the core of the 93/94 division winners. Giving garbage time to Melido Perez and Carlos Martinez showed the Sox that those guys were not long-term answers.

Giving garbage time to Wille Harris and D'Angelo Jiminez proved to KW that neither was capable of starting in an MLB lineup. That knowledge convinced him to get Iguchi, who played a huge role in the 2-hole in 2005. Giving garbage time to Garland helped him develop into the winningest pitcher in 2005-06.

Time and again, it's been proven that it's much better than "bogus" to give the garbage time to youngsters. Some develop. Some don't. But you always get more information about those players than what you had before. More knowledge leads to more informed decision-making.

Isn't that better than learning nothing by giving the garbage time to career veteran bench warmers? :?:

I'm all for finding, signing, or trading for experienced, talented and proven veterans during the offseason. I'm all for making mid-season trades for experienced veterans to improve a weak area on a team that otherwise is strong and is competing for the playoffs.

But on a team that's going nowhere, I'd rather see what the kids can do than see the mediocre bench warmers repeat what they have always done!

MeteorsSox4367
07-07-2007, 01:00 PM
But on a team that's going nowhere, I'd rather see what the kids can do than see the mediocre bench warmers repeat what they have always done!


Frater: Thank you. I'd really rather not see Terrero, Gonzalez and Mackowiak together or some combo thereof in the outfield during the last three months of the season. The Sox aren't going anywhere this season, so the final portion should be showtime for Sweeney, Owens and BA.

These guys are supposed to represent the Sox' future. Let's play 'em. If they suck, move on and find someone else. If they succeed, that gives some optimism and hope for 2008.

IowaSox1971
07-07-2007, 01:01 PM
Tell me, what is gained by playing career journeymen bench warmers during garbage time? :?:

At least when you give the garbage time at-bats to the youngsters, you can give them the experience they need against MLB opposition and allow the manager and GM to have an opportunity to observe and come to some preliminary conclusions about who might develop into the wheat, and who is the chaff. I know you're smart enough to know this, George.

Giving youngsters like Konerko, Lee and Ordonez the garbage time in 98 and 99 paid off when those players led the team to the 2000 playoffs. Playing Caruso in the garbage time of 98 and 99 allowed the Sox to know that he wasn't the answer, which led them to trade for Valentin, who contributed mightily in 2000.

Giving garbage time to youngsters like Ventura and McDowell in 89 and Fernandez and Thomas late in 90 paid dividends when those players formed the core of the 93/94 division winners. Giving garbage time to Melido Perez and Carlos Martinez showed the Sox that those guys were not long-term answers.

Giving garbage time to Wille Harris and D'Angelo Jiminez proved to KW that neither was capable of starting in an MLB lineup. That knowledge convinced him to get Iguchi, who played a huge role in the 2-hole in 2005. Giving garbage time to Garland helped him develop into the winningest pitcher in 2005-06.

Time and again, it's been proven that it's much better than "bogus" to give the garbage time to youngsters. Some develop. Some don't. But you always get more information about those players than what you had before. More knowledge leads to more informed decision-making.

Isn't that better than learning nothing by giving the garbage time to career veteran bench warmers? :?:

I'm all for finding, signing, or trading for experienced, talented and proven veterans during the offseason. I'm all for making mid-season trades for experienced veterans to improve a weak area on a team that otherwise is strong and is competing for the playoffs.

But on a team that's going nowhere, I'd rather see what the kids can do than see the mediocre bench warmers repeat what they have always done!


We should try to trade Mackowiak, Cintron and Hall for whatever we can get, even a bag of baseballs. It doesn't make sense for us to be giving at-bats to these veteran reserves, especially when they haven't been hitting this season. Mackowiak might have some value to a contender that needs a lefty bat off the bench. Cintron could possibly help a winning team because of his versatility in the infield. Hall, a catcher who has hit well in the past, also might be needed by some contender. We're not going to get much in return for these guys, but they're not helping us much now either.

Grzegorz
07-07-2007, 01:03 PM
This is GARBAGE TIME. The games -- and thus the performances -- are meaningless.


I disagree; the approach the players take to playing the games i.e., their attitude means so much.

I also believe that if the kids come up and play well that them playing well means more than them playing poorly.

Fenway
07-07-2007, 01:04 PM
How bad was it?

Taken together, the 32 runs were the most in back-to-back games against the Sox since 1930 and second-most ever to the 35 allowed in 1902.



Buster Olney watched in shock

The White Sox had your basic worst-pitching-day-since-1930 thing going (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-070706soxgamer,1,4984504.story?coll=cs-home-headlines) on Friday, and Ozzie Guillen said it was hard to watch. Flipped to the first game in the ninth inning, when the score was 20-10, and it felt like there were 15 seconds of silence before Hawk Harrelson said anything. What was there to say?

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2928838&name=olney_buster&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fesp n%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d2928838%26name%3dolne y_buster

Grzegorz
07-07-2007, 01:13 PM
How bad was it?

Very bad; the season is basically over. But...

This is a new day and the games still have to be played. You look at yesterday in this way: "Whether by one or one hundred a loss is a loss."

What you do as an organization is get an attitude and play hard. Throw inside, slide hard into the bases, practice in order to execute the fundamentals. Show the fans something we have not seen this year.

These are the Twins for jimminie crickets; they're the enemy. Go out and beat them.

soxtalker
07-07-2007, 01:44 PM
We should try to trade Mackowiak, Cintron and Hall for whatever we can get, even a bag of baseballs. It doesn't make sense for us to be giving at-bats to these veteran reserves, especially when they haven't been hitting this season. Mackowiak might have some value to a contender that needs a lefty bat off the bench. Cintron could possibly help a winning team because of his versatility in the infield. Hall, a catcher who has hit well in the past, also might be needed by some contender. We're not going to get much in return for these guys, but they're not helping us much now either.

It makes good sense to play them in the next week or two if you do want to trade them. There are scouts in the stands from other teams. The kids will have plenty of time to play starting in a few weeks. One of the few positives in the first game was that Mack and Cintron did pretty well hitting.

Hall probably needs to go through an operation to repair his shoulder, though I don't know the optimal timing for that.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2007, 02:15 PM
I disagree; the approach the players take to playing the games i.e., their attitude means so much.

I also believe that if the kids come up and play well that them playing well means more than them playing poorly.

Either way we won't know anything about anyone. Sure, any young ballplayer taking a laid back approach to these games is never going to amount to anything regardless.

So what have we proven? Nothing. They'll suck next year (when the games mean something again), too.

Opposing ballplayers cannot be expected to offer the same intensity playing the "garbage time" Sox as they would opposing a team 20 games over .500. It's a plain fact you can't deny and that's what makes this garbage time.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2007, 02:19 PM
Sure, if some kid comes up and tears the cover off the ball for the rest of the season, it doesn't mean he's the next Albert Pujols. But it's still a lot more promising than the lifeless suckage we're seeing out of the veterans, or young players looking over-matched even in garbage time.

I think we're saying the same thing. Even if the Sox uncover the next Albert Pujols (a very remote possibility), the Sox won't know they have the next Albert Pujols until he does something next year when the games mean something again.

Even Mike Caruso can look decent when the opposition doesn't much give a damned about beating the "garbage time" Sox.

Grzegorz
07-07-2007, 02:23 PM
Either way we won't know anything about anyone. Sure, any young ballplayer taking a laid back approach to these games is never going to amount to anything regardless.

So what have we proven? Nothing. They'll suck next year (when the games mean something again), too.

If the young players play hard and take the game seriously and execute the fundamental you've proven that you have the makings of nice ballplayer. Hopefully, more than one ballplayer.

Opposing ballplayers cannot be expected to offer the same intensity playing the "garbage time" Sox as they would opposing a team 20 games over .500. It's a plain fact you can't deny and that's what makes this garbage time.

Any team can beat another on any given day. Your statement builds in a ready made excuse if the White Sox beat a higher quality team such as the Tigers.

If you believe that opposing players on better teams "relax" against teams like the Chicago White Sox prove it.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2007, 02:25 PM
Tell me, what is gained by playing career journeymen bench warmers during garbage time? ....

But on a team that's going nowhere, I'd rather see what the kids can do than see the mediocre bench warmers repeat what they have always done!

1.) I NEVER said anything about playing journeymen. I challenge you to find where I did.

2.) Whether you, me or anyone else reading this believes playing the kids is better than watching journeymen, it still doesn't change the fact that this is garbage time and the on-field results are suspect compared to results when the games still mattered.

I'm talking about human nature here. The Sox aren't a playoff team and every opposing team knows this as well as you and I. Let's start dealing with it.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2007, 02:26 PM
If you believe that opposing players on better teams "relax" against teams like the Chicago White Sox prove it.

Mike Caruso.

Next.

Tragg
07-07-2007, 02:29 PM
But on a team that's going nowhere, I'd rather see what the kids can do than see the mediocre bench warmers repeat what they have always done!

No doubt - hopefully williams will force ozzie's hand.

One of the problems with this team now and at the start of the season was to many mediocre or worse journeyman. $1.5-$3 mill each for 5 or 6 really crap players adds up.

Yesterday Cintron started both games of a double header. I know he had a good game in game 1 (although he booted a ball), but Ozzie sat Iguchi (a legitimate starter) the game after he went for the cycle -1.

Grzegorz
07-07-2007, 02:36 PM
Mike Caruso.

Next.

That's your proof a name? I am asking for a situation, a scenario, a slice of time where one can point to evidence that team A, the more talented team "relaxes" (not due to externalities) against team B the inferior team.

Oh, and you implied that better teams "relax" every time they face inferior teams.

Opposing ballplayers cannot be expected to offer the same intensity playing the "garbage time" Sox as they would opposing a team 20 games over .500. It's a plain fact you can't deny and that's what makes this garbage time.

oeo
07-07-2007, 02:55 PM
Oh, and you implied that better teams "relax" every time they face inferior teams.

Better teams generally are more relaxed. When you're winning, you're not pressing. So when you feel you have a great chance to win (whether you're kicking ass or playing a ****ty team) of course you're more relaxed.

Grzegorz
07-07-2007, 03:05 PM
Better teams generally are more relaxed. When you're winning, you're not pressing. So when you feel you have a great chance to win (whether you're kicking ass or playing a ****ty team) of course you're more relaxed.

How do upsets occur?

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2007, 05:52 PM
1.) I NEVER said anything about playing journeymen. I challenge you to find where I did.

I didn't say you did. You've made an argument that it's damn near worthless and pointless to let the youngsters play during garbage time. I'm arguing that it's more useful than you've suggested, even with uncertainty. Moreover, playing the youngsters provides far more useful information than the alternative: continuing to trot mediocre veteran bench warmers like Mackowiak and Cintron out there.

2.) Whether you, me or anyone else reading this believes playing the kids is better than watching journeymen, it still doesn't change the fact that this is garbage time and the on-field results are suspect compared to results when the games still mattered.

I'm talking about human nature here. The Sox aren't a playoff team and every opposing team knows this as well as you and I. Let's start dealing with it.

I'm dealing with it. I don't like it, but I've accepted it.

Of course garbage time is different than a pennant race. I completely agree!

By playing the youngsters in garbage time, you and me and KW will learn who can't play, right? 1999's garbage time proved that Caruso sucked, right? And that knowledge convinced Schueler to upgrade at shortstop during the 1999-2000 offseason, right? And he went out and got Valentin, who had a pretty good 2000, right?

I'm not going to predict that Anderson and Sweeney will be stars, or solid major league hitters, even if they are called up tomorrow and hit .300 for the rest of the year. But if one or both of them come up and wallow around the Mendoza line as full-time starters during the rest of 2007's garbage time, then you and me and most importantly KW will know for certain that OF is a priority this offseason, right?

Garbage time playing time doesn't prove who WILL succeed, but it sure shows who WON'T.

slavko
07-07-2007, 06:28 PM
After 5 weeks of playing bad teams and messing the bed, what did you expect when we got back to playing the good teams in our division? We're bad, we have proven we're bad and don't expect anything else. If you love the game, go to the games, have a couple Polish and beers, hope you catch a foul ball. Anybody above who said to use the rest of the year as a tryout is right. See you in the stands.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2007, 07:47 PM
... playing the youngsters provides far more useful information than the alternative: continuing to trot mediocre veteran bench warmers like Mackowiak and Cintron out there.

This is a highly debatable point. Certainly no minor leaguer benefits from getting his brains bashed in for three months straight. Last I checked there was a sizable posse on this board already screaming for KW's blood precisely because there are no Sox minor leaguers worthy of receiving everyday major league playing time.


Of course garbage time is different than a pennant race. I completely agree!

Thank you. This has been my point from the start, though others here are having a hard time grasping the concept.

By playing the youngsters in garbage time, you and me and KW will learn who can't play, right? 1999's garbage time proved that Caruso sucked, right? And that knowledge convinced Schueler to upgrade at shortstop during the 1999-2000 offseason, right? And he went out and got Valentin, who had a pretty good 2000, right?

Thank you (again) for knowing who Mike Caruso is. I'll need to give remedial lessons to others, but not you. Caruso was pretty much uncovered as a fraud from the very start of the 1999 season. His .258 BA in the first-half (when the Sox were still competing) is hardly better than his .238 during garbage time. He sucked, garbage time or not.

Garbage time playing time doesn't prove who WILL succeed, but it sure shows who WON'T.

I think I stated this exact point earlier today. I simply went further and noted that young players who can't/won't do well in garbage time never were going to do well in a pennant race either. Slappy Caruso is the poster child for those who excelled during garbage time and were revealed as frauds once the games mattered.

Thank you (a third time) for debating the issue with your own counterpoints, not the "prove it" or "huh?" variety of witty retorts.

:cool:

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2007, 08:26 PM
Prove it..... That's your proof a name?

My apologies for needing to offer you a remedial lesson in who Mike Caruso is. Since you're challenging me, please don't accuse me of being condescending in my reply. Remember what you wrote here.

You asked for it.
:rolleyes:

Mike Caruso was the everyday rookie shortstop for the 1998 White Sox, a team that was already 9.5 games out of contention by Memorial Day (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1998_sched.shtml). Playing for this team was the epitome of "garbage time" the greatest amount of any recent Sox team.

Caruso batted .306 for the Sox that year (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1998.shtml), good enough to finish third in the A.L. Rookie of the Year (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1998.shtml#ALroy) voting. That's two places in front of Magglio Ordonez. Have you heard of him, Grzegorz?

You might know (nah, you wouldn't) that Caruso had the softest .306 anyone could remember. 132 of his 160 hits were singles (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/carusmi01.shtml). And of those 132 singles, 67 of them never left the infield. The opposing pitcher and secondbasemen fielded Caruso's singles (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/event_bat.cgi?n1=carusmi01&year=1998#divisory=1&pitchORbat=bat&n1=carusmi01&year_game=1998&event=20&out_type=) more often than the centerfielder!
:o:

Caruso's punchy style earned him the nickname "Slappy the Inning Maker" by Robin Ventura (Look 'em up, Grzegorz) because it was such a joke in the clubhouse how be beat out so many infield singles.

Too bad the opposition finally figured him out, too. Not the pitchers -- THE INFIELDERS! Once the opposition finally started playing the infield up, Caruso's days of beating out singles were over... but not until 1999 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1999.shtml), AFTER he had played 133 games and received 555 plate appearances the prior "garbage-filled" season.

Garbage time ends once a W-L record is rolled back to 0-0 -- like it did on opening day of the 1999 season. This isn't too abstract a concept for you to grasp, is it?

Now Grzegorz, you go right ahead and "prove" that the opposing team's managers and infielders would have treated a .306 hitter for a team 20 games over .500 the same way they actually got skunked by a piece of **** the size of Mike Caruso playing for a going nowhere ballclub the likes of the 1998 "garbage time" White Sox.

This ought to be good.
:cool:

santo=dorf
07-07-2007, 08:33 PM
I think Mike Caruso is a better example of why you should look at other stats instead of batting averages. This isn't the 1920s.

It painfully reminds me of the Erstad arguments from this offseason.
"Doesn't matter what his slugging is, he hits at the top of the order." "He's a career .285 hitter, he doesn't need to walk."

Caruso batted .306 in 1998, but had a .331 OBP and .390 OPS for an 89 OPS+. If that was a highlight for him, it's no surprise he fizzled out of baseball so quickly.

Brian26
07-07-2007, 08:35 PM
Mike Caruso was the everyday rookie shortstop for the 1998 White Sox, a team that was already 9.5 games out of contention by Memorial Day (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1998_sched.shtml). Playing for this team was the epitome of "garbage time" the greatest amount of any recent Sox team.

Just to add to George's point about that '98 team:

Albert Belle used the 2nd half of '98 to put up the biggest garbage time offensive onslaught the Sox have ever seen, making himself a crapload of money in the process from the idiots running the Orioles.

Grzegorz
07-07-2007, 09:39 PM
My apologies for needing to offer you a remedial lesson in who Mike Caruso is. Since you're challenging me, please don't accuse me of being condescending in my reply. Remember what you wrote here.

You asked for it.
:rolleyes:

This ought to be good.
:cool:

This is the best you have? Please don't accuse me of being condescending in my reply.

Your point was that every superior team "relaxes" when they face lesser teams. That's the point I want you to defend. Since this point is not defensible, you've chosen to change the parameters of the argument to something less abstract.

You've proved nothing other than you've mastered the art of cutting and pasting.

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2007, 11:14 PM
[/B]This is a highly debatable point. Certainly no minor leaguer benefits from getting his brains bashed in for three months straight. Last I checked there was a sizable posse on this board already screaming for KW's blood precisely because there are no Sox minor leaguers worthy of receiving everyday major league playing time.

I'm glad you and I are finding agreement on a lot and debating with civility those points on which debate remains.

Let me see if I can put into writing an argument that makes sense to me as well as you.

Youngsters like Paulie, Maggs and Lee got garbage time ABs in 98 and 99. In their cases, they turned out to be pretty good major league players. They were "destined" (if there is such a thing) to become occasional all-stars. No doubt they learned a lot playing during garbage time in 98 and 99.

All I'm saying is that for players pre-disposed to succeed (through a combination of mental and physical gifts), time spent playing against MLB competition, even if it is garbage time, can be a time of learning, adapting and gaining valuable experience sharpening those mental and physical gifts.

Obviously players like Caruso didn't have those gifts. But there also are a ton of players - like Joe Borchard - who have tremendous gifts but just can't put it together. Borchard's performance in 2004 (much of it in garbage time) proved to the Sox that he wouldn't amount to much and wouldn't be a suitable replacement for Magglio, and that convinced KW to sign a veteran RF who ended up being the World Series MVP.

I know it's not the same as experience gained during a playoff run. But it's still experience and it's still wise for the team to play youngsters instead of mediocre veterans during garbage time.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-08-2007, 12:07 AM
This is the best you have? Please don't accuse me of being condescending in my reply.

Your point was that every superior team "relaxes" when they face lesser teams. That's the point I want you to defend. Since this point is not defensible, you've chosen to change the parameters of the argument to something less abstract.

You've proved nothing other than you've mastered the art of cutting and pasting.

Grzegorz, I'm not sure how many more times you're going to use the term "relaxes" in a vain attempt to make a point, but good luck finding anyone besides yourself using it in this thread.

Why you would think I should bother knocking over a ridiculously stupid strawman argument you set up for yourself is utterly beyond me, however I'll note that insisting I do so isn't a very good reflection of either your rhetorical skills or intelligence.

Grzegorz
07-08-2007, 05:48 AM
God forbid anyone of us is to back up our statements. Is that really to much to ask for?

Opposing ballplayers cannot be expected to offer the same intensity playing the "garbage time" Sox as they would opposing a team 20 games over .500. It's a plain fact you can't deny and that's what makes this garbage time.

It seems as if you cannot defend your statement so you start an ad hominem campaign.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-08-2007, 10:05 AM
God forbid anyone of us is to back up our statements. Is that really to much to ask for?

God forbid I should ask you to show me where *I* ever used the term "relax" in any of my posts. I'm still waiting...
:rolleyes:

Presumably you understand the difference between defending what *I* write versus defending what *you* wrote? Maybe I'm assuming too much...
:o:

I'll offer you this out,Grzegorz. State for me (and everyone else) that you see no difference in the play between two teams in a pennant race and teams going no place -- that all games are the same regardless of the situation of each ballclub. Then I'll laugh and walk away.
:cool:

Tragg
07-08-2007, 10:17 AM
The Sox will have a lot of 2nd half games against the Twins, Tigers and Indians, all 3 of whom are in a race and won't be laying down and will have to take the games seriously; so the competition will have to play hard. I think that will mitigate some of the garbage-time fools gold (versus were we in the east where for all the teams its garbage time, or in Boston's case, just get ready for the playoffs).

On the other hand, what's the alternative....what can be gained from more at bats for Mack, Cintron, Torrero or Erstad when he returns. (except to "showcase" for a trade - but gosh...). And also, you can cut-bait on a player if you don't like what you see garbage time, like Borchard. That's important info, too.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-08-2007, 10:26 AM
....

I know it's not the same as experience gained during a playoff run. But it's still experience and it's still wise for the team to play youngsters instead of mediocre veterans during garbage time.

I think we covered this yesterday (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1627989&postcount=126). I believe it's a highly debatable point to assume minor leaguers benefit from getting whatever quantity of big league playing time the parent club can afford to give them.

Sure, if a minor league prospect shows promise (and several have shown enough to be promoted already this season), by all means bring them up and let them keep playing. I completely agree the experience is useful.

The problem now for the Sox is they have more available playing time than healthy and/or qualified ballplayers to fill up the everyday line up. This is the essential difference! The Sox don't have the ballplayers to take playing time away from Cintron and Mackowiak. They're either on the DL or too raw to spend 3 months up here.

There is no benefit (to the kid or the Sox) to have some kid get his brains bashed in for 3 months straight. Let him keep his confidence while Alex Cintron gets his brains bashed in. Unlike the kid, Cintron has no future to protect.

Finally I would note that the Sox stock the rosters of several minor league teams, each filled with talented ballplayers, and every single one of them wishes to be playing for the Sox. There is no shortage of ballplayers under contract chomping at the bit to get the call, but that's irrelevant. The thinking behind giving them playing time on the parent club is an entirely different question.

Does this explain it any better?
:redface:

Frater Perdurabo
07-08-2007, 04:15 PM
I think we covered this yesterday (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1627989&postcount=126). I believe it's a highly debatable point to assume minor leaguers benefit from getting whatever quantity of big league playing time the parent club can afford to give them....

The problem now for the Sox is they have more available playing time than healthy and/or qualified ballplayers to fill up the everyday line up. This is the essential difference! The Sox don't have the ballplayers to take playing time away from Cintron and Mackowiak. They're either on the DL or too raw to spend 3 months up here.

Does this explain it any better?
:redface:

OK, I agree that prospects who just are not ready should not be rushed along, because it can ruin a player who with a more gradual approach might blossom.

I think the basic issue on which we quibble is which particular players might or might not be ready to make the jump - which players have nothing more to gain playing more in the minors, and which players might benefit from more seasoning and might be damaged by playing in the majors too early. And since we've already taken this post-game thread in one tangent, maybe we should just choose to wait until a later thread and a later date to debate which individual players fall into which category. (We'll have plenty of time to discuss all this and more during the All Star Break!)
:cool: