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View Full Version : MacDougal on DL; Day Recalled


MagicNumber22
07-06-2007, 10:41 AM
MacDougal placed on the DL with right shoulder inflammation.

Dewon Day recalled. Per White Sox press release.

Tragg
07-06-2007, 10:44 AM
What happened to Mac?

I thought Day was on the DL himself - wasn't he pitching a little better and then got injured? Maybe not.

PatK
07-06-2007, 10:45 AM
My god, what's going on with this bullpen.

What they are putting me through should be considered an act of terrorism.

Wonder if his arm has been bad all season and that's behind his struggling.

MagicNumber22
07-06-2007, 10:48 AM
Linky.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20070706&content_id=2070636&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

lostfan
07-06-2007, 10:49 AM
Didn't Mac have a lengthy stay on the DL in KC because of shoulder problems?

SBSoxFan
07-06-2007, 11:05 AM
Didn't Mac have a lengthy stay on the DL in KC because of shoulder problems?

I think so. He had not been back long prior to being traded to the Sox last year.

Lip Man 1
07-06-2007, 11:50 AM
In 2004 he only pitched in eleven innings for the season. In 2005 he returned to pitch in 68 games for K.C. In 2006 he appeared in 29 games for both K.C. and the Sox.

Lip

redsand22
07-06-2007, 12:08 PM
Will this bullpen ever be stable?

thomas35forever
07-06-2007, 12:19 PM
Maybe Mac's old injuries are coming back to haunt him. Anyway, I could really care less what happened to this bullpen the way they've let us down this year except for Jenks and Thornton.

jenn2080
07-06-2007, 12:24 PM
Maybe Mac's old injuries are coming back to haunt him. Anyway, I could really care less what happened to this bullpen the way they've let us down this year except for Jenks and Thornton.


Dont forget about Boone. Boone has done a fairly good job out there so far.

lostfan
07-06-2007, 12:29 PM
I was down on Boone earlier this year but he's been steadily getting better ever since I saw him punk out Morneau on 3 pitches a couple of months ago. When I saw him being called into the game, I cringed... way to shut me up, 3 pitch strikeout to the reigning MVP. Now hopefully he can develop to the point where he pitches against right-handers regularly.

oeo
07-06-2007, 12:33 PM
What happened to Mac?

I thought Day was on the DL himself - wasn't he pitching a little better and then got injured? Maybe not.

He just got off and has been in Charlotte for the past week. In 3.0 IP: 0H, 0R, 2BB, 5K.

getonbckthr
07-06-2007, 12:55 PM
So is this the excuse for Macdougal sucking this season?

soxfanatlanta
07-06-2007, 12:56 PM
Sure, why not?

What a nightmare.

CPditka
07-06-2007, 01:50 PM
This is rediculous.

russ99
07-06-2007, 02:13 PM
I was down on Boone earlier this year but he's been steadily getting better ever since I saw him punk out Morneau on 3 pitches a couple of months ago. When I saw him being called into the game, I cringed... way to shut me up, 3 pitch strikeout to the reigning MVP. Now hopefully he can develop to the point where he pitches against right-handers regularly.

He's been throwing some nasty breaking balls lately. I'd see him taking over the setup role if he continues.

UserNameBlank
07-07-2007, 12:32 AM
Anyone want to start calling Dewon D-Day? I don't really care if it's fitting or not; it's a cool name.

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2007, 12:43 AM
Anyone want to start calling Dewon D-Day? I don't really care if it's fitting or not; it's a cool name.Please, no. When will we put the "first initial, first syllable" nicknames to rest?

TDog
07-07-2007, 01:18 AM
Maybe Mac's old injuries are coming back to haunt him. Anyway, I could really care less what happened to this bullpen the way they've let us down this year except for Jenks and Thornton.

Jenks and Thornton have combined for 7 blown saves. The rest of the pitchers used by the Sox this year have combined for 7 blown saves. Jenks and Thornton, actually, bear a disproportionate share of the lead-blowing on the 2007 White Sox.

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2007, 02:03 AM
Jenks and Thornton have combined for 7 blown saves. The rest of the pitchers used by the Sox this year have combined for 7 blown saves. Jenks and Thornton, actually, bear a disproportionate share of the lead-blowing on the 2007 White Sox.A blown save is not the same as a blown lead. The Sox pen has coughed up many leads in non-save situations, and those wouldn't count in your analysis.

oeo
07-07-2007, 02:52 AM
A blown save is not the same as a blown lead. The Sox pen has coughed up many leads in non-save situations, and those wouldn't count in your analysis.

Exactly, and why does it surprise you that our closer and another back-end of the bullpen guy (who are put into save situations) have more blown saves than the rest of the bullpen?

soxfanreggie
07-07-2007, 09:50 AM
Not this guy again...

I made the comment to a friend that I didn't want to see him in the majors again this year. I don't care if we bring a AA-level pitcher up; I doubt he can do worse than Day has this year.

UserNameBlank
07-07-2007, 09:56 AM
Not this guy again...

I made the comment to a friend that I didn't want to see him in the majors again this year. I don't care if we bring a AA-level pitcher up; I doubt he can do worse than Day has this year.
Just wondering, but would you have said the same about Prinz and Bukvich?

I thought at the beginning of the year the worst we'd see would be a pen era in the low to mid 4's. I thought the worst we'd really do would be like win 86-88 games.

All I can to say now is WOW.

I wouldn't be surprised if the next guy we called up put up a 96.00 ERA in about ten appearances. Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised.

soxfanreggie
07-07-2007, 10:19 AM
I realize with all the injuries, etc. we have had that we need guys in the pen. I don't mind Bukvich as much as Day and Prinz. I just have horrible thoughts of Day going in with a runner on because it seems 95% likely that the runner will score. Bukvich has pitched horrible in almost all his major league stints, but he's the lesser of three "evils" right now out of the three. Bukvich gives up over a hit an inning usually, which wouldn't be as bad if he didn't have a K to BB ratio of 1 to 1.09 to go along with the hits.

If I had a preference of who to bring up, it would probably be Prinz. He has shown in the past that he can pitch well (see Arizona 2001). He gives up over a hit per IP in the majors over his career, but he doesn't walk more than he Ks. Even last year, he wasn't bad with the Dodgers. He pitched on a couple games, but he didn't get shelled. I think a couple more games might drop that ERA.

Personally, I wanted to see us trade for this guy: http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Chris%2520Britton&pos=P&sid=t531&t=p_pbp&pid=461904 I mentioned it before in talks with Sox fans that Chris would be a guy I wouldn't mind getting in a trade. Although his ERA "ballooned" to 2.77 for the year, he has an awesome K to BB ratio...4 to 1, but he can also close games that Bobby can't.

TDog
07-07-2007, 01:04 PM
A blown save is not the same as a blown lead. The Sox pen has coughed up many leads in non-save situations, and those wouldn't count in your analysis.

A blown lead after the fifth inning generally counts a blown save. If a pitcher enters the game in a save situation, the scorer does not assume he will finish the game. A successfull effort in a save situation will be a hold if the pitcher doesn't finish the game. It will be a blown save if the lead is lost. There is no such thing as a blown hold. Look at the stats for most teams and you will find that middle relievers have more blown saves than closers. Look closely at the box scores. I won't go through every blown save, but I offer a few to prove my point.

On the second game of the season, Thornton relieved MacDougal with two outs in the seventh inning and a man on first and a 6-5 lead. Thornton's first pitch to Grady Sizemore was hit for a home run. That was Thornton's first blown save. On June 19, Josh Willingham of the Pirates hit a seventh-inning home run in the seventh off Bukvich to make the score 5-5. The box score shows Bukvich with his first blown save in a game eventually lost by Thornton who entered the game tied. On June 3, Masset relieved Danks, who left after five innings with a 3-1 lead. Masset gave up three runs in the sixth. Day held the Blue Jays the rest of the way. Masset, who only pitched the sixth, was charged with his first blown save and his second loss.

MacDougal actually got his 11th hold (the Sox have 37 holds) and his third loss in the previous day's 9-3 loss to Toronto on June 2. Contreras got one out in the seventh before was relieved. MacDougal pitched one-third of an inning without giving up the lead, but he put the go-ahead run on base. Before Thornton got the third out, the Blue Jays had a 4-3 lead. Aardsma gave up five runs in the eighth, but the Sox were already losing. He may not have come in if Thornton had preserved the lead. Instead, the box score gives Thornton his fourth blown save.

There are exception to giving up a lead and being charged with a blown save. Before the fifth, a reliever isn't in a save situation because the reliever is technically the potential pitcher of record, the starter not being eligible for the win. If a pitcher comes in with a lead so large that it wouldn't qualify as a save situation if the pitcher finished the game, it wouldn't be a blown save, and I can't find any of those games. Sometimes closers aren't charged with blown saves when they lose games in this situation, but these cases are rare because there tends to be a change to a new pitcher who qualifies for a save before the lead is lost.

I don't recall any games this year where Sox relievers coughed up leads in non-save situation. I'm sure they don't amount to the 14 blown saves the bullpen has accumulated. I'm also sure they don't amount to the seven blown saves accumulated by Thornton and Jenks.

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2007, 03:58 PM
I don't recall any games this year where Sox relievers coughed up leads in non-save situation. I'm sure they don't amount to the 14 blown saves the bullpen has accumulated. I'm also sure they don't amount to the seven blown saves accumulated by Thornton and Jenks.Almost without exception, Jenks only comes in to the game in save situations. Thornton a little less so, but to a greater extent than the rest of the pen. Therefore, more opportunities to blow saves.

The rest of the pen almost never comes in in true save situations. However, there have been many times that they have given up leads when they entered the game in a non-save situation. Say they have a four run lead. The first guy gives up a homer. The next guy enters with no one on base, so the tying run is not on deck. No save situation. If he coughs up the lead, there is no blown save, as you cannot create your own save situation by putting a runner on; the tying run must be on deck when you enter the game.

Now, if he puts a couple of guys on but doesn't give up the lead, yeah, the next guy in is in a save situation, but if he gives up the lead, three relievers were all responsible, but only one gets the blown save. Those types of situations have happened a lot this year.

TDog
07-07-2007, 05:27 PM
Almost without exception, Jenks only comes in to the game in save situations. Thornton a little less so, but to a greater extent than the rest of the pen. Therefore, more opportunities to blow saves.

The rest of the pen almost never comes in in true save situations. However, there have been many times that they have given up leads when they entered the game in a non-save situation. Say they have a four run lead. The first guy gives up a homer. The next guy enters with no one on base, so the tying run is not on deck. No save situation. If he coughs up the lead, there is no blown save, as you cannot create your own save situation by putting a runner on; the tying run must be on deck when you enter the game.

Now, if he puts a couple of guys on but doesn't give up the lead, yeah, the next guy in is in a save situation, but if he gives up the lead, three relievers were all responsible, but only one gets the blown save. Those types of situations have happened a lot this year.

The blown saves listed in the statistics are a good way to gauge how many leads the Sox have blown. I haven't combed through every box score, but I can't recall a game where the bullpen lost a lead and there wasn't a blown save charged in the game. If you would like to refer me to a box score where the Sox bullpen surrendered a lead and there wasn't a blown save charged, I will stand corrected on this point. If you show me seven, I will stand corrected on my point that Thornton and Jenks are blowing a disproportionate number of leads compared to the rest of the bullpen.

Whether some people might question if Masset should have been charged with a blown save for losing a lead in the sixth inning is irrelevant to my argument.

Jenks and Thornton have been as guilty of giving up leads as the rest of the bullpen combined. Jenks, coming into today's game, had 22 saves and three blown saves. Twice he has blown saves after coming into the game with none out and two on. On June 20, he relieved Garland to protect a 2-1 lead in the eighth inning with runners on first and third and none out. Garland got the loss because Jenks immediately gave up a three-run homer and gave up a run in the ninth as well.

The bullpen has been charged with 15 losses, many of those coming in situations where the losers entered the game with a tie score. Jenks has four losses and three blown saves, one of which resulted in a loss for Garland. Jenks and Thornton have combined for seven of the 15 bullpen losses and seven of the bullpen's 14 blown saves.

I fail to see where they can't share the blame in the bullpen's failures.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 05:54 PM
Jenks has four losses and three blown saves, one of which resulted in a loss for Garland.
That's not possible... if you blow a save (i.e. you lose the lead while pitching) then you take the loss. Not the starter. Pitchers can't score runs while pitching.

JorgeFabregas
07-07-2007, 05:58 PM
Of course it's possible. It just depends on inherited runners.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 06:01 PM
Ok, I give you that. But to suggest the back of the bullpen is part of the problem because they gave up the starter's inherited runners (exception, not the norm) seems like splitting hairs and looking for something to ***** about to me.

TDog
07-07-2007, 06:39 PM
Ok, I give you that. But to suggest the back of the bullpen is part of the problem because they gave up the starter's inherited runners (exception, not the norm) seems like splitting hairs and looking for something to ***** about to me.

It's not splitting hairs to give Jenks a share in the blame for the June 20 loss to the Marlins, even tough he inherited tying and go-ahead runners from Garland, who left with a 2-1 lead. Jenks gave up two runs in two innings, in addition to allowing two inherited runners to score. The White Sox scored in both the eighth and ninth, but because Jenks allowed the Marlins lead (charged to Garland) to expand, the Sox ended up losing 5-4.

Jenks has been successful in most of his outings this year. I don't believe he has a success rate to justify naming him to the AL All-Star team, but he has been a heck of a lot more successful than Thornton. If Thornton and Jenks were doing their jobs, the White Sox would be seven games closer to Cleveland.

I'm only responding to people complaining about the bullpen. If you're going to complain about it, blame Jenks and Thornton as well.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 06:42 PM
In other words, Jenks is unworthy because he makes mistakes now and again, and doesn't have a perfect 0.00 ERA. Cmon, almost all closers have these kinds of issues. It's no coincidence that the rest of the bullpen's ERA is double what Jenks is.

TDog
07-07-2007, 06:55 PM
In other words, Jenks is unworthy because he makes mistakes now and again, and doesn't have a perfect 0.00 ERA. Cmon, almost all closers have these kinds of issues. It's no coincidence that the rest of the bullpen is double what Jenks is.

Bobby Jenks is unworthy of being on the All-Star team because relievers don't belong in the All-Star Game unless they are pretty close to 100 percent. Coming into today's game, Jenks was only 88 percent in converting save opportunities. With today's protection of Mark Buehrle's 3-0 lead, Jenks is about 88.5 percent in save opportunities. Buehrle is more worthy of being on the All-Star team than Jenks. The reality is that were it not for the White Sox needing at least one representative, Jenks wouldn't be on the team.

lostfan
07-07-2007, 06:56 PM
If you're saying that Buehrle or Garland should've gone in place of Jenks, that's a completely different argument, and it has much more merit.

TDog
07-07-2007, 07:07 PM
If you're saying that Buehrle or Garland should've gone in place of Jenks, that's a completely different argument, and it has much more merit.

I simply wrote that Jenks isn't worthy of being on the All-Star team. When he was selected, I wrote that he wasn't worthy because relievers are generally not worthy of the honor. I posted that view when Bobby Jenks was about 92 percent in converting save opportunities. Starters having great seasons are far more worthy. Even Mark Buehrle is more worthy. I never posted that Bobby Jenks is a lousy closer, but I don't think he's having a great season. My argument hasn't changed.

Lip Man 1
07-07-2007, 07:56 PM
In a story at Whitesox.com today they posted the bullpen numbers.

"The White Sox bullpen has a 3-12 record and 7.47 ERA in its last 53 games, with eight blown saves."

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2007, 08:08 PM
Personally, I'm glad he is on the DL. He'll get rest and (hopefully) recover to contribute at a future point... if not for the Sox then at least as trade bait. The '07 Sox are going nowhere and it's pointless to play through pain trying to post wins in a season that is already lost.

If anybody else on the Sox is hiding an injury, they need to come forward, too. This is no time to be a hero.

I also like thinking that MacDougal's lousy performances might at least in part be explained away by injury rather than lack of talent. I know this team has plenty of potential scapegoats (and plenty of Sox Fans willing to finger each of them), but a rash of injuries cannot be easily overcome... or reasonably planned for.

Lip Man 1
07-07-2007, 08:11 PM
George:

MacDougal has had two serious injuries including at least one to his arm, this may be the injury returning.

I agree on the injury comment, you can't 'plan' for them although I will say the Sox appear to have had more then their share since this decade started.

The 2001 and 2004 seasons were also ruined by injuries.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
07-08-2007, 01:21 AM
The reality is that were it not for the White Sox needing at least one representative, Jenks wouldn't be on the team.This, I agree with.