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Tragg
04-02-2002, 11:25 PM
strikeout and pop out with the bags loaded.

Thank you Kenny Williams.

My grandmother would work for a lot less.

foulkesfan11
04-02-2002, 11:53 PM
My dog could have done better.

Kilroy
04-02-2002, 11:55 PM
Sandy swings at a **** pitch, and Royce the first pitch. Royce's is unforgiveable. bases loaded, look at some pitches. Pressure might get one to the backstop, into your thigh, or just four nowhere near the zone. That's baseball 101.

Tragg
04-03-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Sandy swings at a **** pitch, and Royce the first pitch. Royce's is unforgiveable. bases loaded, look at some pitches. Pressure might get one to the backstop, into your thigh, or just four nowhere near the zone. That's baseball 101.

The problem is that that is the best Clayton can do - he's proven it his entire career. He is one of the worst 10 year players in the history of baseball. Yet we have a general manager that gives up talent for him and a manager who insists on playing him.
And this doesn't mention the stellar pitching performance of the latest Kenny Williams acquisition- walk 'em in. You'd think this crew would somehow get the message that walks do mean something.

ode to veeck
04-03-2002, 12:42 AM
and the buddy crowd will say tonight 8 o-fer at bats does not a season make ... or is that 8 men LOB in two games does not a season make ... or is it ...

if it smells like a duck and bats like a duck ... have daver arrow ass him and stick a fork in him

voodoochile
04-03-2002, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
and the buddy crowd will say tonight 8 o-fer at bats does not a season make ... or is that 8 men LOB in two games does not a season make ... or is it ...

if it smells like a duck and bats like a duck ... have daver arrow ass him and stick a fork in him

Best mixed metaphor of the year, bar none...

:gulp: cheers!

kermittheefrog
04-03-2002, 01:23 AM
What's Liefer's job on this team if it's not to hit for sinkholes like Clayton and Alomar agaisnt tough righties like Nelson and Sasaki?

PaleHoseGeorge
04-03-2002, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
What's Liefer's job on this team if it's not to hit for sinkholes like Clayton and Alomar agaisnt tough righties like Nelson and Sasaki?

Jerry is going with a set lineup this year, Andrew. I guess that's what the chairmen meant when he said "we've learned the error of our ways." Versatility is out.

:versatile
"When it comes back into fashion, guess who gets the call?"

:liefer
"I'll still be on the bench."

RedPinStripes
04-03-2002, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
What's Liefer's job on this team if it's not to hit for sinkholes like Clayton and Alomar agaisnt tough righties like Nelson and Sasaki?
I'm not sure what his Job is, but he K's too much to be a good PH. I would have rather had Tony G and Johnson hitting for Alomar and chia-head in the late innings.

baggio202
04-03-2002, 02:22 AM
i cant stand to watch clayton anymore....how many pitches out of the zone is this guy gonna swing at....i cant take another .099 start to the season for two months until this guy gets his head out of his ass...

RedPinStripes
04-03-2002, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
i cant stand to watch clayton anymore....how many pitches out of the zone is this guy gonna swing at....i cant take another .099 start to the season for two months until this guy gets his head out of his ass...

Funny. He watches ball on the ouside corner and just off the plate and then swings at a ball 2 feet outside and low. Think pitchers have his weak spot in mind?

duke of dorwood
04-03-2002, 07:41 AM
The manager should have brought in MJ to hit for Alomar. Then maybe they put in Rhodes there, and maybe the choice would hit against him. We just are content to take outs sometime. The thing was to get Nelson out before the choice came up. Our "manager" wasn't in the mood I guess.

Paulwny
04-03-2002, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
The manager should have brought in MJ to hit for Alomar. Then maybe they put in Rhodes there, and maybe the choice would hit against him. We just are content to take outs sometime. The thing was to get Nelson out before the choice came up. Our "manager" wasn't in the mood I guess.

If I remember correctly, we were bitching last year about JM not
phitting in April, May. Same old song

duke of dorwood
04-03-2002, 07:49 AM
Same old JM

:jerry

But I brought my "A" game

Kilroy
04-03-2002, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
...The thing was to get Nelson out before the choice came up. Our "manager" wasn't in the mood I guess.

????

What are u talking about? Nelson gave up 3 straight hits. You wanted him out? Bases loaded and no outs. If Alomar doesn't bail Nelson out, it would have been 3 straight hits and a walk.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-03-2002, 08:15 AM
Down a run in the late innings, on the road, bases loaded, nobody out, and the 8 and 9 hitters coming to the plate. I'm sorry, Manuel may think he needs an everyday line up, but if he isn't going to use his bench in this situation, why even give them a seat on the bus?

The Sox were roping everything Nelson threw. Alomar looked terrible in his at-bat, and Clayton swung at the first thing he saw. We're lucky we got anything out of that inning. You can't win this way.

That was the ballgame.

Soxboyrob
04-03-2002, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Down a run in the late innings, on the road, bases loaded, nobody out, and the 8 and 9 hitters coming to the plate. I'm sorry, Manuel may think he needs an everyday line up, but if he isn't going to use his bench in this situation, why even give them a seat on the bus?

The Sox were roping everything Nelson threw. Alomar looked terrible in his at-bat, and Clayton swung at the first thing he saw. We're lucky we got anything out of that inning. You can't win this way.

That was the ballgame.

Most astute observations, Webmaster George. The Jer went through this last year too. He's almost unwilling to pinch hit for his guys late in the game. Why do we have guys like Rowand, Lief or Graffy on the bench if we're not going to use them in what appeared to be a picture perfect situation? What is Jer waiting for? Saving them for the 9th inning? What if we don't need them in the 9th inning? We needed them in the 7th inning and Lief would have been the perfect pinch hitter for Alomar. It would have forced the pitching change over to Rhodes and then we could have countered w/ Rowand. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have Rowand vs. Rhodes than Nelson vs. Alomar. Hey Jerry, those guys you're saving....they're still waiting at the end of the bench for their chance to hit. How many times did we watch Clayton and Baines come to the plate late in the game last year in the middle of a rally, only to K or ground into a DP? When I see this stuff, it makes me wonder if The Jer is even trying to win.

THE_HOOTER
04-03-2002, 08:43 AM
I agree 100% that you cannot win when you waste at-bats like that.

Alomar to me is below average-i prefer Johnson.

Clayton looks completely different than he did in ST. One more sh*t game from him, and throw him on the bench.

I cannot watch another piss poor April and May from that cocky underacheiving ass.

In 2000, our bullpen preserves that one run lead. When you trade three bullpen guys for an average starter, you're seeing the result.

andytheclown
04-03-2002, 09:51 AM
If we wouldn't have made that trade, our pitching would look a hell of alot worse! Ritchie did his job yesterday. Sean Lowe would not have come in to save the day, he is long relief. Wells might have gone in, and Fogg probably would not have made the roster.

Which of these three would have saved the game in 2000? Barcelo pitched very well in the same exact role as last night. Wells was floundering in the starting rotation and minors. Fogg was in single A! Howry, Barcelo, and Wunch were the late inning guys.

Howry and Barcelo are still here and actually pitched last night! Wunch is on the DL. Are you looking for perfection from your bullpen every night?

And as far as Clayton is concerned, I am not a fan either. But it is two games! Already you have him slated to not get another hit in April and May?

Grow up and enjoy the game! Everyone is not going to be effective every pitch or every at bat.

pearso66
04-03-2002, 10:11 AM
what i dont understand, is why would you bring in a pitcher who hasnt pitched yet, in that point in the game, osuna should ahve been brought in, or maybe rauch, cuz he seemed to do well, but when a pitcher has 8 balls out of 9 pitches, he shouldnt pitch unless we are getting blown out, or have a big lead, let him get his confidence there

THE_HOOTER
05-30-2002, 09:38 AM
ARE YOU STILL GLAD WE MADE THE RITCHIE TRADE?

bjmarte
05-30-2002, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
ARE YOU STILL GLAD WE MADE THE RITCHIE TRADE?

YES. Can we stop yelling now?

THE_HOOTER
02-11-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by andytheclown
If we wouldn't have made that trade, our pitching would look a hell of alot worse! Ritchie did his job yesterday. Sean Lowe would not have come in to save the day, he is long relief. Wells might have gone in, and Fogg probably would not have made the roster.

Which of these three would have saved the game in 2000? Barcelo pitched very well in the same exact role as last night. Wells was floundering in the starting rotation and minors. Fogg was in single A! Howry, Barcelo, and Wunch were the late inning guys.

Howry and Barcelo are still here and actually pitched last night! Wunch is on the DL. Are you looking for perfection from your bullpen every night?

And as far as Clayton is concerned, I am not a fan either. But it is two games! Already you have him slated to not get another hit in April and May?


HEEHAW!




Grow up and enjoy the game! Everyone is not going to be effective every pitch or every at bat.

THE_HOOTER
02-11-2003, 03:48 PM
Only a clown would defend the Ritchie trade.

gogosoxgogo
02-11-2003, 05:21 PM
I like bringing back Alomar, and I like it for one reason: Our young pitchers like working with him. Mark Buehrle said that he thought our greatest offseason move was bringing back Sandy Alomar, because he likes working with him so much. IMO, that's worth it alone. Then add in the fact that he's worked with Colon in the past so he knows him well.

Sandy is great guy to have in your clubhouse. He's very knowledgeable about baseball, works well, brings great chemistry, and despite all of your grumbling about his hitting, there aren't a hell of a lot of good hitting catchers. There's a position that's much more intended for guys who know the game.

It's not like he's going to get all of the at bats this year, anyway. Olivo is going to get the majority of the starts. Sandy was a good guy to re-acquire.

Clayton, I have no respect for. Clubhouse cancer who can't put anything on the field either.

gogosoxgogo
02-11-2003, 05:24 PM
STOP THE PRESSES! Our pitching staff would be worse if we didn't make the Ritchie trade? Two 12 game winners (one with an ERA near Buehrle's) or a 15 game loser who would have been a 20 game loser? You're stupid.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-11-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
Only a clown would defend the Ritchie trade.

:andy
"Hey, I resemble that remark!!!"

Man, this is a TOUGH board. Members will dig through posts made over eight months ago just to "out" something stupid somebody once wrote.

"I request the right to revise and extend my remarks..."

:)

gogosoxgogo
02-11-2003, 05:29 PM
Oops, I didn't see the date of this thread. Why the hell was it brought back?

Randar68
02-11-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
STOP THE PRESSES! Our pitching staff would be worse if we didn't make the Ritchie trade? Two 12 game winners (one with an ERA near Buehrle's) or a 15 game loser who would have been a 20 game loser? You're stupid.

BTW, Wells and Fogg both had worse second halfs and pitched in the NL, not AL. Apples and oranges.

Bmr31
02-11-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
BTW, Wells and Fogg both had worse second halfs and pitched in the NL, not AL. Apples and oranges.


yeah but of the three, at least Wells has talent.

gogosoxgogo
02-11-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
BTW, Wells and Fogg both had worse second halfs and pitched in the NL, not AL. Apples and oranges.

Just out of curiosity, which side are you on?

I'd much rather have Wells and Fogg vs. Ritchie. Yeah, you can talk all you want about the NL. Let's say pitching in the NL takes a whole point off of your ERA, not realistic, but for simplicity, let's say it does. That would still put Wells AND Fogg better than Ritchie. Also, you can say all you want about how bad a 2nd half they both had, but Ritchie had a much worse second half. Then take into account, they're both 25 years old!

Randar68
02-11-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Just out of curiosity, which side are you on?

I'd much rather have Wells and Fogg vs. Ritchie. Yeah, you can talk all you want about the NL. Let's say pitching in the NL takes a whole point off of your ERA, not realistic, but for simplicity, let's say it does. That would still put Wells AND Fogg better than Ritchie. Also, you can say all you want about how bad a 2nd half they both had, but Ritchie had a much worse second half. Then take into account, they're both 25 years old!

As trade bait today, I would rather have Wells and Fogg because, unlike Ritchie, they'd be worth something in return. However, Fogg would not have had a chance with the Sox and Wells was clearly never going to improve as long as Nardi was here.

I did NOT say I would rather have Ritchie. It turned out to be a bad deal, but it was made for the right reasons at the time. Wells has talent, but if you watched any of his second half starts last year, he still craps his pants when he gets in trouble. I still don't ever see him being a top 3 pitcher until he masters the mental part of the game...

baggio202
02-11-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
As trade bait today, I would rather have Wells and Fogg because, unlike Ritchie, they'd be worth something in return. However, Fogg would not have had a chance with the Sox and Wells was clearly never going to improve as long as Nardi was here.

I did NOT say I would rather have Ritchie. It turned out to be a bad deal, but it was made for the right reasons at the time. Wells has talent, but if you watched any of his second half starts last year, he still craps his pants when he gets in trouble. I still don't ever see him being a top 3 pitcher until he masters the mental part of the game...

kip wells 1st half era 3.41....2nd half 3.80
if a 3.80 era is crapping your pants then i hope wright and garland **** all over the place :D:

i know we all want to rationalize this trade away but lets face it....kip is gonna be a stud just like he was projected to be...in one start last year in the 9th inning he was clocked at 97 mph...thats ace material right there...this trade will go down in white sox history as one of the worst of all time...maybe the worst...no way around it

Randar68
02-11-2003, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
kip is gonna be a stud just like he was projected to be...


Kip Wells will never be a top 3 pitcher on a contender. Write it down, and repeat it to yourself.

Facing the Cubs 5 times a year will make you look better than you are. THey were solely responsible for Fogg's first half number. I think he shut them out twice!

bc2k
02-11-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
I like bringing back Alomar, and I like it for one reason: Our young pitchers like working with him. Mark Buehrle said that he thought our greatest offseason move was bringing back Sandy Alomar, because he likes working with him so much. IMO, that's worth it alone. Then add in the fact that he's worked with Colon in the past so he knows him well.

I was just thinking about this yesterday. I was assuming that Sandy would catch Bartolo since he did in Cleveland. And now Buehrle is praising Sandy, and prefers him over Olivo.

Since Colon and Buehrle will pitch back-to-back, can Sandy catch them both for the majority of the year? What if Colon pitches a night game and Buehrle pitches the following day game? Only now do I wish to aquire another veteran catcher. I think we might have to carry three catchers. Including Alomar, two veterans and Olivo.

If Olivo catches Buehrle, and he gets his signs from the bench, will that slow down Mark's quick cadence?

Bmr31
02-11-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Kip Wells will never be a top 3 pitcher on a contender. Write it down, and repeat it to yourself.

Facing the Cubs 5 times a year will make you look better than you are. THey were solely responsible for Fogg's first half number. I think he shut them out twice!


ahhh the only opinion on earth that matters.

Randar68
02-11-2003, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
ahhh the only opinion on earth that matters.

*****.... irony...

Bmr31
02-11-2003, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
*****.... irony...

:gulp:

fuzzy_patters
02-12-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I was just thinking about this yesterday. I was assuming that Sandy would catch Bartolo since he did in Cleveland. And now Buehrle is praising Sandy, and prefers him over Olivo.

Since Colon and Buehrle will pitch back-to-back, can Sandy catch them both for the majority of the year? What if Colon pitches a night game and Buehrle pitches the following day game? Only now do I wish to aquire another veteran catcher. I think we might have to carry three catchers. Including Alomar, two veterans and Olivo.

If Olivo catches Buehrle, and he gets his signs from the bench, will that slow down Mark's quick cadence?

Would it really be that big a deal if one of them pitched the third game of the year instead of the second? That would split them up so that Sandy could still catch both of them. Of course, this all depends on who Garland, Wright, and fifth starter to be named want catching them. If everybody wants Alomar, then obviously someone will have to suck it up and pitch to Olivo.

Bmr31
02-12-2003, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Would it really be that big a deal if one of them pitched the third game of the year instead of the second? That would split them up so that Sandy could still catch both of them. Of course, this all depends on who Garland, Wright, and fifth starter to be named want catching them. If everybody wants Alomar, then obviously someone will have to suck it up and pitch to Olivo.

Yes. Teams prefer to go righty, lefty, righty....leaving that idea not an option.

Randar68
02-12-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Yes. Teams prefer to go righty, lefty, righty....leaving that idea not an option.

*****. If the Sox have 4 righty starters and Mark, no matter where Mark pitches, it's going to be "righty, lefty, righty"

:gulp:

Bmr31
02-12-2003, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
*****. If the Sox have 4 righty starters and Mark, no matter where Mark pitches, it's going to be "righty, lefty, righty"

:gulp:

And you think their rotation will consist of one lefty? ***** even more..... :)

fuzzy_patters
02-12-2003, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Yes. Teams prefer to go righty, lefty, righty....leaving that idea not an option.

Last I checked, the Sox were not planning on going with an even number of pitchers in the rotation. This means that, no matter what, two pitchers that throw with the same hand will have to repeat at some point. Assuming a second lefty will be in the rotation, he could pitch in the four hole with Buehrle as the one and still enable the lefties to not be placed back to back. This would mean that Garland or Wright would still be free to pitch between #1 Buehrle and #3 Colon.

Bmr31
02-12-2003, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Last I checked, the Sox were not planning on going with an even number of pitchers in the rotation. This means that, no matter what, two pitchers that throw with the same hand will have to repeat at some point. Assuming a second lefty will be in the rotation, he could pitch in the four hole with Buehrle as the one and still enable the lefties to not be placed back to back. This would mean that Garland or Wright would still be free to pitch between #1 Buehrle and #3 Colon.


Lol cmon guys......Colon is the ace and will pitch on opening day. The rotation will be Colon, Buehrle, righty, lefty, righty. This is baseball 101....

fuzzy_patters
02-12-2003, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Lol cmon guys......Colon is the ace and will pitch on opening day. The rotation will be Colon, Buehrle, righty, lefty, righty. This is baseball 101....

In your example two righties are pitching back to back. I don't see what your problem is here. Teams try to split their lefties, but you cannot avoid having to righties pitch back to back if you have only two lefties. Your rotation example is not really different than mine in regards to righties and lefties. The only difference is that you choose to have righties pitch games 5 & 6 back to back while I choose game 2&3.

Bmr31
02-12-2003, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
In your example two righties are pitching back to back. I don't see what your problem is here. Teams try to split their lefties, but you cannot avoid having to righties pitch back to back if you have only two lefties. Your rotation example is not really different than mine in regards to righties and lefties. The only difference is that you choose to have righties pitch games 5 & 6 back to back while I choose game 2&3.

I am totally lost here. Teams pitch RLRLR all the time, havent you noticed. The sox arent going to move Buehrle down to the 4th spot, so they can arrange their catcher rotation. Thats absolutely crazy. Its going to be Colon, buehrle, and the rest remains to be seen. If we have another lefty step up or we sign Rogers, i can guarantee you its going to go Colon Buehrle Righty Rogers Righty. Garland and Wright are interchangable.

fuzzy_patters
02-12-2003, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I am totally lost here. Teams pitch RLRLR all the time, havent you noticed. The sox arent going to move Buehrle down to the 4th spot, so they can arrange their catcher rotation. Thats absolutely crazy. Its going to be Colon, buehrle, and the rest remains to be seen. If we have another lefty step up or we sign Rogers, i can guarantee you its going to go Colon Buehrle Righty Rogers Righty. Garland and Wright are interchangable.

Let me explain this simply to you, in your rotation who pitches after the third righty? Would that be Colon, another righty?
In what way is that different than pitching Garland and Colon back to back in the 2 and 3 spots?

Your rotation is rlrlrrlrlrrlrlrrlrlr...
My rotation is lrrlrlrrlrlrrlrlrrlrlrr...

As you can see, these two rotations are practically identical. The only difference is that I have the rlrlr pattern falling in games 3-8 while you have it in game 1-5. We still both have a rlrlr rotation. Mine just started in a different spot.

Of course, perhaps you want Colon to start opening day. If we are to split up Sandy's two guys, we can pitch Buehrle in game three and go rrlrl. This means we pick up our rlrlr rotation in game 2.

Bmr31
02-12-2003, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Let me explain this simply to you, in your rotation who pitches after the third righty? Would that be Colon, another righty?
In what way is that different than pitching Garland and Colon back to back in the 2 and 3 spots?

Your rotation is rlrlrrlrlrrlrlrrlrlr...
My rotation is lrrlrlrrlrlrrlrlrrlrlrr...

As you can see, these two rotations are practically identical. The only difference is that I have the rlrlr pattern falling in games 3-8 while you have it in game 1-5. We still both have a rlrlr rotation. Mine just started in a different spot.

Of course, perhaps you want Colon to start opening day. If we are to split up Sandy's two guys, we can pitch Buehrle in game three and go rrlrl. This means we pick up our rlrlr rotation in game 2.

Okay this is insane. As far as i am concerned, you are debating the obvious ands the norm. I dont even know what your point is.......all i know for sure is you are putting more value on your catcher rotation than your pitching rotation, which is crazy. I will add, that many times you do not even use your 5th starter, which makes your theory(?) even more insane.

fuzzy_patters
02-12-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Okay this is insane. As far as i am concerned, you are debating the obvious ands the norm. I dont even know what your point is.......all i know for sure is you are putting more value on your catcher rotation than your pitching rotation, which is crazy.

No, I'm trying to maximize the abilities of the best two pitchers in that rotation. If those guys want Alomar catching them, then I say we set the rotation up so that he can catch them as much as possible.

You, however, seem to be set on making sure that Colon and Buerhle pitch the first two games of the season. I believe that those two games are not more important than the subsequent 68 or so games those two start.

Bmr31
02-12-2003, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
No, I'm trying to maximize the abilities of the best two pitchers in that rotation. If those guys want Alomar catching them, then I say we set the rotation up so that he can catch them as much as possible.

You, however, seem to be set on making sure that Colon and Buerhle pitch the first two games of the season. I believe that those two games are not more important than the subsequent 68 or so games those two start.

Well keep your opinion, thats fine. One thing i know for sure, no baseball team is going to put more value on their catcher rotation. Colon and Buehrle will pitch game 1 and 2 of the season and Colon and Buehrle will pitch game 1 and 2 of the playoffs and world series, if we make it.

baggio202
02-12-2003, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Kip Wells will never be a top 3 pitcher on a contender. Write it down, and repeat it to yourself.

Facing the Cubs 5 times a year will make you look better than you are. THey were solely responsible for Fogg's first half number. I think he shut them out twice!

the i guess you think the sox arnt a contender because kip on the sox right now would be the number 3 starter...and he outpitched every twins starter last year

facing the cubs 5 times a year will make you look better than you are???...well then..i guess our pitchers really suck then because theyeach face KC , detroit and cleveland 5 times a year too...

your logic is flawed...kip made the majors in 1/2 season..that why he sucked with us..he learned to pitch at the ML level...he has figured it out...97 mph in the 9th inning

write this down and repeat it to yourself...this is the worst trade in sox history :)

Randar68
02-12-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
And you think their rotation will consist of one lefty? ***** even more..... :)

So Josh Stewart will be the #4 or 5 starter to start the season? Give me a break. He's the only LH option who will compete in ST against Heredia, Rauch, and Loaiza....

voodoochile
02-12-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
So Josh Stewart will be the #4 or 5 starter to start the season? Give me a break. He's the only LH option who will compete in ST against Heredia, Rauch, and Loaiza....

I agree. You put the best pitchers on the mound regardless of which arm they throw with. The Dodgers one time went something like 5 straight years without starting LHP. It would be nice to have a second left, especially considering how reletively poorly the Twins did against LHP last season, but in the end, talent is the answer, period...

Randar68
02-12-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
your logic is flawed...kip made the majors in 1/2 season..that why he sucked with us..he learned to pitch at the ML level...he has figured it out...97 mph in the 9th inning

Your logic is flawed, because you have some mental block over the fact that he would never have performed in a Six uni. The Sox started last season with Nardi as the pitching coach. It was clear to anyone who knew pitching or coaching, that Kip would never improve under Nardi.

I guess we will see, but everyone who thinks Kip would have pitched like he did last season for the Sox is oblivious. Could he eventually turned into a good pitcher for us??? Perhaps. However, the situation was stale! Both needed to move on. The Sox had enough waiting, and Kip wasn't lisening anymore (would you if Nardi always came to the mound yelling at you?).

BTW, if you want to argue pitching... saying he hit 97 (on guns that are rarely accurate or consistent) in the 9th inning proves absolutely nothing about his pitching ability...

write this down and repeat it to yourself...this is the worst trade in sox history :) [/QUOTE]

Keep telling yourself, and maybe it will be true. However, if you think that was the worst trade in Sox history, you are absolutely clueless about the Sox' history.

Randar68
02-12-2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Well keep your opinion, thats fine. One thing i know for sure, no baseball team is going to put more value on their catcher rotation. Colon and Buehrle will pitch game 1 and 2 of the season and Colon and Buehrle will pitch game 1 and 2 of the playoffs and world series, if we make it.

Can't argue with that. And by that time there may not be a catching rotation as Sandy will be in a wheelchair by then...

Iwritecode
02-12-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Well keep your opinion, thats fine. One thing i know for sure, no baseball team is going to put more value on their catcher rotation. Colon and Buehrle will pitch game 1 and 2 of the season and Colon and Buehrle will pitch game 1 and 2 of the playoffs and world series, if we make it.

I agree. If Alomar has to catch on back-to-back days and then get 2 or 3 days off, then so be it. If either Colon or Burly have to pitch to Olivo or Paul, then so be it. I doubt either one of those guys is worried about having their own personal catcher. I doubt that either the "tinkerer" or Sandy's time on the DL would allow for it anyway.

Iwritecode
02-12-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I agree. You put the best pitchers on the mound regardless of which arm they throw with. The Dodgers one time went something like 5 straight years without starting LHP. It would be nice to have a second left, especially considering how reletively poorly the Twins did against LHP last season, but in the end, talent is the answer, period...

IIRC, the NL Central started the season last year with 1 lefty starter in the entire division. Thats six teams!

I agree that a R L R L R rotation is preferable, we shouldn't sacrifice talent because of it.

Although we all know what happened to the A's in the playoffs last year when they didn't throw as many lefties as they could against the Twins...

Iwritecode
02-12-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Your logic is flawed, because you have some mental block over the fact that he would never have performed in a Sox uni. The Sox started last season with Nardi as the pitching coach. It was clear to anyone who knew pitching or coaching, that Kip would never improve under Nardi.

I guess we will see, but everyone who thinks Kip would have pitched like he did last season for the Sox is oblivious. Could he eventually turned into a good pitcher for us??? Perhaps. However, the situation was stale! Both needed to move on. The Sox had enough waiting, and Kip wasn't lisening anymore (would you if Nardi always came to the mound yelling at you?).

I have a question for you Randar. Do you think that if Nardi would have been replaced by Cooper sooner (say the middle of the 2001 season) that Kip would have progressed more and may never have been traded?

bc2k
02-12-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Would it really be that big a deal if one of them pitched the third game of the year instead of the second? That would split them up so that Sandy could still catch both of them. Of course, this all depends on who Garland, Wright, and fifth starter to be named want catching them. If everybody wants Alomar, then obviously someone will have to suck it up and pitch to Olivo.

Ken Williams was talking to Buehrle and asked him if he, with his slower pitches, could benefit by pitching behind the overpowering Colon. In my opinion, Mark will benefit from that situation. So I totally disagree with throwing Mark 3rd.

As for JGar, Wright, and fifth starter, they don't have the option of choosing their own catcher. Hopefully those three will be White Sox All-Stars along with Olivo, and they'll start their hopefully long relationship together in 2003.

I hate carrying three catchers, but I think this situation calls for it. Nobody has answered my question asking if Buehrle's quick cadence will be slowed down by Olivo getting the pitch calls from the bench.

Randar68
02-12-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I hate carrying three catchers, but I think this situation calls for it. Nobody has answered my question asking if Buehrle's quick cadence will be slowed down by Olivo getting the pitch calls from the bench.

If the bench is calling the pitches... yes.

If they let Mark and Olivo get a rapport and Olivo improves in this area, no.

With MJ or Alomar, Mark never shook them off. He took the sign and threw the called pitch. I don't know if he would be that comfortable with Olivo.

Only time will tell, I would think.

BTW, I would have Olivo catch Bartolo. Both are native spanish speakers and Bartolo had a season last year with 2 different primary catchers in Cleveland and Montreal.

Randar68
02-12-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I have a question for you Randar. Do you think that if Nardi would have been replaced by Cooper sooner (say the middle of the 2001 season) that Kip would have progressed more and may never have been traded?

Well, I doubt Coop would have been the choice at that time. However, it's very hard to say. I would guess he would have been better. Nardi would go out there cussing and yelling at Kip when he got wild. Next thing you know, he's throwing cookies down the middle. Then Jerry would pull him with 4 ER's in 5 IP or something like that. They never gave the young guys chances to pitch outta jams or through control problems. Coop is definitely better at getting Jerry to keep his fanny on the bench when the young guys struggle a little, and you can see the increased confidence in Jon and Danny because of it...

It's obvious Kip's fragile psyche was not compatible with Nardi. I would suspect any coach that was good with younger players would have made corrections and encouraging progress with Kip.

That said, I watched several second-half starts last season of Kip's where he just imploded like he used to on the Sox, so who knows. Only time will tell if he can completely get rid of that "deer-in-the-headlights" panic...

bc2k
02-12-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
If the bench is calling the pitches... yes.

If they let Mark and Olivo get a rapport and Olivo improves in this area, no.

With MJ or Alomar, Mark never shook them off. He took the sign and threw the called pitch. I don't know if he would be that comfortable with Olivo.

Only time will tell, I would think.

BTW, I would have Olivo catch Bartolo. Both are native spanish speakers and Bartolo had a season last year with 2 different primary catchers in Cleveland and Montreal.

Armed with that information, I think of all five starters, Buehrle would benefit most with Alomar catching him. If you throw off his cadence waiting for signs, I think he'll be less successful while Colon is less likely to be hurt by Olivo catching him.

The lack of a language barrier is something I had not thought of, but I did think of how few runners will steal on that tandem. Not many runners will even attempt to steal because of their knowledge of Bartolo's fastball and Olivo's arm.

Colon (Olivo)
Buehrle (Alomar)
Wright
JGar
5th

I just had Olivo catching 3-5, but I don't think that is feasible for him to catch 4 games in a row. And I want to keep innings off of Alomar's knees so is less likely to DL and make Buehrle throw to Olivo. Which brings me back to square 1: a third catcher. DAMNIT!

Randar (and everyone else who has an opinion), has Josh Paul reached the point to where he can call his own game? Or should we bring in your favorite catcher Girardi as the third? Or do you think a third catcher is not necessary in this situation?

baggio202
02-12-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Keep telling yourself, and maybe it will be true. However, if you think that was the worst trade in Sox history, you are absolutely clueless about the Sox' history.

just wondering why we cant disagree w/o you throwing a personal attack in???...

Randar68
02-12-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
just wondering why we cant disagree w/o you throwing a personal attack in???...

Because that statement of yours shows the utmost in ignorance.

All time? The trade is 1 year old. Get a clue. Kip Wells has yet to show anything worthy of a top 3 pitcher on a contender.

Over the past 25 years, there are probably 10 worse trades.

baggio202
02-12-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Because that statement of yours shows the utmost in ignorance.

All time? The trade is 1 year old. Get a clue. Kip Wells has yet to show anything worthy of a top 3 pitcher on a contender.

Over the past 25 years, there are probably 10 worse trades.

name them..give me ten trades since '78 worse then the ritchie trade...

again,thanks for the personal attack

Tragg
02-12-2003, 09:28 PM
I feel like I'm in a time warp. I must have started this thread a year ago. How the hell is it still around?

Bmr31
02-12-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
name them..give me ten trades since '78 worse then the ritchie trade...

again,thanks for the personal attack


While Randars wording may be suspect, he is 100 percent correct. The Ritchie deal was not even that bad of a trade. You think its the worst of all time? No offense dude, but thats ummm, crazy? I would say we SLIGHTLY lost in that deal. All of the players involved SUCK.

maurice
02-13-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I would say we SLIGHTLY lost in that deal.

I don't know about that. I mean, hindsight is 20/20, but the Sox essentially got one full season of nothing in return for two starting pitchers with actual trade value, even though the jury is still out on both of them. Heck, if I'm the Brewers (thankfully I'm not), I'd trade Ritchie for either one of Wells or Fogg straight up. What GM wouldn't?

I wasn't sad at the time to see Wells or Fogg go, and appreciated KW's efforts to land a veteran starter, but he certainly should have gotten more in return.

Randar68
02-13-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I don't know about that. I mean, hindsight is 20/20, but the Sox essentially got one full season of nothing in return for two starting pitchers with actual trade value, even though the jury is still out on both of them. Heck, if I'm the Brewers (thankfully I'm not), I'd trade Ritchie for either one of Wells or Fogg straight up. What GM wouldn't?

I wasn't sad at the time to see Wells or Fogg go, and appreciated KW's efforts to land a veteran starter, but he certainly should have gotten more in return.

Ritchie was very effective for the first 1/3rd of the season. It's been rumored that he actually was injured.

I don't know if that's true or his mechanics just fell apart, but regardless, they made an attempt at the time. Heck! Most people were more ticked off about losing Sean Lowe than the other 2...