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pmck003
06-29-2007, 03:31 PM
A poll on espn shows that the majority of voters think Biggio had a more productive career. In my opinion Frank clearly has the upper hand. But, I suppose it could be close if you count the value to their prospective teams and the overall numbers; Biggio was pretty consistant for longer than Frank and you could say he played a tougher position. Even Franks downyears seem to be comparable to Biggio's average years at the plate though. Is this a debatable topic?

tebman
06-29-2007, 03:38 PM
A poll on espn shows that the majority of voters think Biggio had a more productive career. In my opinion Frank clearly has the upper hand. But, I suppose it could be close if you count the value to their prospective teams and the overall numbers; Biggio was pretty consistant for longer than Frank and you could say he played a tougher position. Even Franks downyears seem to be comparable to Biggio's average years at the plate though. Is this a debatable topic?
It's an apples-and-oranges debate. Frank wasn't a position player for much of his career, but he carried his team for a lot of those years. Biggio was consistent, but he played a different position in a different league.

Both are/were great ballplayers in their own ways. Obviously I'd pick Frank. He's still the best pure hitter I ever saw. Ted Williams might have been better, but that was before my time.

PKalltheway
06-29-2007, 04:11 PM
Biggio was consistent, but he played a different position in a different league.
Haha, he played 3 different positions.:tongue:

Chicken Dinner
06-29-2007, 04:14 PM
I guess we'll see who get into the HOF first.

WhiteSox5187
06-29-2007, 04:32 PM
Haha, he played 3 different positions.:tongue:
And he played them all rather well.

They're both first ballot guys. If they both retire at the end of this year they'll both be in the class of 2012.

It's an apples and oranges debate. It's important to remember while Biggio put up better numbers as Frank was on the "downside" of his career, Biggio was on a LOT better teams those years too. The Killer B's of the late 1990s were a lot better than the "Kids Can Play" Sox of the late 1990s where Frank was really the only offensive risk.

Tragg
06-29-2007, 05:04 PM
An interesting comparison with Frank is Bagwell. Start with the fact that they were born on the same day and go on from there.

The Astros and Sox have been similar for a long time. They made the playoffs more than we did and had fewer bad years, but they also made teh playoffs with <90 wins and we never have.

JB98
06-29-2007, 06:00 PM
Both are HOFers, but given the choice, I think I'd take Frank. Even now, on the downside of his career, he is still a feared hitter.

Even in his prime, Biggio was not the most feared hitter on his team. His value was his versatility and all-around play.

Frater Perdurabo
06-29-2007, 07:04 PM
How great would it have been if the Sox could have had a hitter like Biggio to set the table for Frank!

Huisj
06-29-2007, 09:54 PM
Biggio has hit .300 only four times in his career, the last time being in 1998. Frank's career BA is still over .300 despite not hitting .300 for a season since 2000. Not to mention Thomas' career OBP of .420 or so blows Biggio's out of the water. Biggio's best single season OBP was lower than Thomas' career mark.

Yes, they are very different types of hitters and players for sure. However, Frank Thomas was absolutely dominant for almost an entire decade and has been still feared when healthy since then. Biggio was never really dominant even in the leadoff man sense except for maybe his two career years in '97 and '98.

WhiteSox5187
06-29-2007, 11:08 PM
How great would it have been if the Sox could have had a hitter like Biggio to set the table for Frank!
That's what I was thinking. I mean, really Biggio's job is to get on base. Frank's job is to hit home runs and drive runs in. They've both done a fairly good job at what they've been asked to do.

gobears1987
06-29-2007, 11:12 PM
An interesting comparison with Frank is Bagwell. Start with the fact that they were born on the same day and go on from there.

The Astros and Sox have been similar for a long time. They made the playoffs more than we did and had fewer bad years, but they also made teh playoffs with <90 wins and we never have.Bagwell and Frank are very similar hitters. Frank has the slight edge over Bagwell though.

FarWestChicago
06-29-2007, 11:21 PM
Biggio has hit .300 only four times in his career, the last time being in 1998. Frank's career BA is still over .300 despite not hitting .300 for a season since 2000. Not to mention Thomas' career OBP of .420 or so blows Biggio's out of the water. Biggio's best single season OBP was lower than Thomas' career mark.

Yes, they are very different types of hitters and players for sure. However, Frank Thomas was absolutely dominant for almost an entire decade and has been still feared when healthy since then. Biggio was never really dominant even in the leadoff man sense except for maybe his two career years in '97 and '98.A voice of reason. Frank is comparable to Ruth, Gherig, Foxx, Williams, Aaron. Biggio? Are you kidding me? Have people completely lost their minds? :dunno:

Daver
06-29-2007, 11:25 PM
A voice of reason. Frank is comparable to Ruth, Gherig, Foxx, Williams, Aaron. Biggio? Are you kidding me? Have people completely lost their minds? :dunno:

You left out Mays. That guy could hit a little. Not as well as Frank though.

FarWestChicago
06-29-2007, 11:39 PM
You left out Mays. That guy could hit a little. Not as well as Frank though.I knew that after I posted but was lazy. My point still stands. :redneck

Oh yeah, Mantle, too. :wink:

WhiteSox5187
06-29-2007, 11:53 PM
You left out Mays. That guy could hit a little. Not as well as Frank though.
Mmmm...I'd give you Foxx, Williams, Mantle and Gerhig...But i'm not so sure I'd go around tossing out names like Ruth, Aaron and Mays. Those guys all hit 600+ (Mays probably could have hit more had he not been in two of the worst parks for hitting HRs) and I don't think that Frank is going to be approaching 600+.

Daver
06-29-2007, 11:56 PM
Mmmm...I'd give you Foxx, Williams, Mantle and Gerhig...But i'm not so sure I'd go around tossing out names like Ruth, Aaron and Mays. Those guys all hit 600+ (Mays probably could have hit more had he not been in two of the worst parks for hitting HRs) and I don't think that Frank is going to be approaching 600+.


Look at total hits, and BA and you will see what West and I are talking about.

voodoochile
06-29-2007, 11:57 PM
Mmmm...I'd give you Foxx, Williams, Mantle and Gerhig...But i'm not so sure I'd go around tossing out names like Ruth, Aaron and Mays. Those guys all hit 600+ (Mays probably could have hit more had he not been in two of the worst parks for hitting HRs) and I don't think that Frank is going to be approaching 600+.

If Frank hits 20 more this season (definitely doable). He'd need 30 each of the next two years with Toronto to get to 580 (again, definitely doable) and then he'd only need 20 more.

If Frank stays healthy, there is almost no chance he doesn't break 600, IMO.

Factor in all the time he has lost to injuries since 2001 and you could easily make a case for Frank to push 700 for his career if healthy.

CLR01
06-30-2007, 12:24 AM
Mmmm...I'd give you Foxx, Williams, Mantle and Gerhig...But i'm not so sure I'd go around tossing out names like Ruth, Aaron and Mays. Those guys all hit 600+ (Mays probably could have hit more had he not been in two of the worst parks for hitting HRs) and I don't think that Frank is going to be approaching 600+.

Mays and Aaron have 6-7 seasons worth of games on Frank, Ruth has about 2. Give Frank 7 more healthy years and what does his HR total look like? He would need to average about 14 to hit 600.

Grzegorz
06-30-2007, 05:59 AM
It's an apples-and-oranges debate. Frank wasn't a position player for much of his career, but he carried his team for a lot of those years. Biggio was consistent, but he played a different position in a different league.

Both are/were great ballplayers in their own ways. Obviously I'd pick Frank. He's still the best pure hitter I ever saw. Ted Williams might have been better, but that was before my time.

Both Paul Molitor & Tony Gwynn were the best pure hitters in my lifetime.

Williams, Mantle (from the left side especially), Clemente, and Frank Robinson we're pretty good too.

Craig Biggio is a Hall of Fame player. I am sure Thomas will be too, but I'd have liked to seen him play the field more.

A baseball HoFer should be a baseball player, not just a hitter.

That said, Thomas' numbers as a hitter are good enough (to me he was a great hitter) to gain entry and I believe numbers are all it takes now.

SBSoxFan
06-30-2007, 06:57 AM
If Frank hits 20 more this season (definitely doable). He'd need 30 each of the next two years with Toronto to get to 580 (again, definitely doable) and then he'd only need 20 more.

If Frank stays healthy, there is almost no chance he doesn't break 600, IMO.

Factor in all the time he has lost to injuries since 2001 and you could easily make a case for Frank to push 700 for his career if healthy.

That's really a shame too, isn't it? First, the chances seem pretty likely that he would have hit #500 and #600 in a Sox uniform. Second, think about the players we wouldn't have to be hearing about lately. What if every time someone mentioned Bonds' HR total, someone else said yeah, but Frank Thomas hit 730 HR's, and he did it clean. :(:

ComiskeyBrewer
06-30-2007, 06:57 AM
Both Paul Molitor & Tony Gwynn were the best pure hitters in my lifetime.

Williams, Mantle (from the left side especially), Clemente, and Frank Robinson we're pretty good too.

Craig Biggio is a Hall of Fame player. I am sure Thomas will be too, but I'd have liked to seen him play the field more.

A baseball HoFer should be a baseball player, not just a hitter.

That said, Thomas' numbers as a hitter are good enough (to me he was a great hitter) to gain entry and I believe numbers are all it takes now.


Agreed. While Frank has the best eye i have seen, if you are talking pure hitters, i will go with Molitor and Gwynn as well.

Frater Perdurabo
06-30-2007, 08:23 AM
If Frank hits 20 more this season (definitely doable). He'd need 30 each of the next two years with Toronto to get to 580 (again, definitely doable) and then he'd only need 20 more.

If Frank stays healthy, there is almost no chance he doesn't break 600, IMO.

Factor in all the time he has lost to injuries since 2001 and you could easily make a case for Frank to push 700 for his career if healthy.

Injuries did rob him. He missed most of 2001. Conservatively figure he'd have hit another 30 there. He missed more than half of 2004. Give him another 20. He missed most of 2005. Give him another 30. That's 80 more homers. Given that he'd be at 580 right now with a legit shot at getting #600 this year.

StepsInSC
07-01-2007, 01:32 AM
I guess we'll see who get into the HOF first.

It should be whoever retires first. :D:

gobears1987
07-01-2007, 11:48 AM
It should be whoever retires first. :D:Both are first ballot Hall of Famers so that is how that question will be answered. I'm just going to say I hope it's Biggio because I want to see Frank continue to play at lest 2-3 more years.

soxfanreggie
07-01-2007, 01:18 PM
I think you'll see both get in. Frank was the best player in the league for at least 3 years (Giambi should not have been MVP, certainly recent events have highlighted that). Even without winning the MVP that year, he still has multiple MVPs, AS selections, batting titles, career batting average over .300, 500+ homers, Silver Sluggers, etc. He is still a feared hitter after playing the game almost 2 decades.

While Frater makes a great point that Frank would be closing in on 600 without the injuries, couldn't you also say that Griffey would be going for 700+ without his injuries or many other players approaching other milestones without being injured.

churlish
07-01-2007, 02:25 PM
It's amazing how quickly people forget how good Frank was. He had about 7 seasons in a row where his numbers would rival anyone.

Plus, if the strike never happened, his 1994 season would probably rank as one of the top 5 single season performances...ever.

voodoochile
07-01-2007, 07:48 PM
It's amazing how quickly people forget how good Frank was. He had about 7 seasons in a row where his numbers would rival anyone.

Plus, if the strike never happened, his 1994 season would probably rank as one of the top 5 single season performances...ever.

BA .353
OBP .487
SLG .729 :o: (pretty much he averaged around 3.5 bases per game for the entire season)
OPS 1.216 :o::o:
2B 34
HR 38
R 106
RBI 101
BB 109

In 113 games :o::o::o:

Yeah, it was an alright year...

Oh at that point in Time, Frank was still working that string where he hadn't gone 8 AB without reaching base since he came up (this is as I recall, perhaps it had been broken by then).

viagracat
07-01-2007, 08:47 PM
I gotta go with Thomas. No batter was more feared in his prime than the Big Hurt.

That said, Biggio was one of the fiercest competitors I've ever seen. Both are first-ballot HOF'ers, absolutely.

johnr1note
07-01-2007, 11:35 PM
Mmmm...I'd give you Foxx, Williams, Mantle and Gerhig...But i'm not so sure I'd go around tossing out names like Ruth, Aaron and Mays. Those guys all hit 600+ (Mays probably could have hit more had he not been in two of the worst parks for hitting HRs) and I don't think that Frank is going to be approaching 600+.

Take a look at this . . .

FRANK THOMAS IS ONE OF TEN PLAYERS IN MAJOR LEAGUE HISTORY WITH AT
LEAST A .300 CAREER average, 400 home runs. 1,000 RBI, 1,000 runs
scored and 1,000 walks. Listed below are the ten players who have
accomplished this feat through the start of the 2004 season.

Player AVG HR RBI R BB

Hank Aaron .305 755 2,297 2,174 1,402
Jeff Bagwell .300 419 1,421 1,402 1,287
Jimmie Foxx .325 534 1,922 1,751 1,452
Lou Gehrig .340 493 1,995 1,888 1,508
Willie Mays .302 660 1,903 2,062 1,464
Stan Musial .331 475 1,951 1,949 1,599
Mel Ott .304 511 1,860 1,859 1,708
Babe Ruth .342 714 2,213 2,174 2,062
Frank Thomas .303 500 1,619 1,436 1,597
Ted Williams .344 521 1,839 1,798 2,019

Players With Most Consecutive
Seasons Having .300 BA, 20-Plus
HR, 100 RBI, 100 Runs, 100 BB

Player Streak Years

Frank Thomas 7 1991-1997
Ted Williams 6+ 1941-1949
Lou Gehrig 4 1929-1932
Lou Gehrig 4 1934-1937
Jason Giambi 4 1999-2002
Jeff Bagwell 3 1998-2000
Barry Bonds 3 2000-2002
Jimmie Foxx 3 1934-1936
Babe Ruth 3 1919-1921
Babe Ruth 3 1926-1928
Babe Ruth 3 1930-1932

+ Missed three seasons (1943-1945)
due to military service during World War I
Frank is one of the greatest overall right handed hitters to ever play the game. Period. To not have him make the hall of fame on the first ballot would be a crime.

And to argue that Frank doesn't belong, or isn't a first ballot HOFer because he was just a hitter, and not a fielder, is disingenuous. There are many great hitters -- a few on the list above -- who were not known for their fielding prowess. And while Frank was not the greatest first baseman in baseball, he wasn't THAT bad. If he had a weakness, it was throwing. He managed himself around the first base bag as good as any other player of his build and speed capabilities.

whitesoxfan1986
07-02-2007, 12:23 AM
Take a look at this . . .

FRANK THOMAS IS ONE OF TEN PLAYERS IN MAJOR LEAGUE HISTORY WITH AT
LEAST A .300 CAREER average, 400 home runs. 1,000 RBI, 1,000 runs
scored and 1,000 walks. Listed below are the ten players who have
accomplished this feat through the start of the 2004 season.

Player AVG HR RBI R BB

Hank Aaron .305 755 2,297 2,174 1,402
Jeff Bagwell .300 419 1,421 1,402 1,287
Jimmie Foxx .325 534 1,922 1,751 1,452
Lou Gehrig .340 493 1,995 1,888 1,508
Willie Mays .302 660 1,903 2,062 1,464
Stan Musial .331 475 1,951 1,949 1,599
Mel Ott .304 511 1,860 1,859 1,708
Babe Ruth .342 714 2,213 2,174 2,062
Frank Thomas .303 500 1,619 1,436 1,597
Ted Williams .344 521 1,839 1,798 2,019

Frank will not be a member of that club by the time he retires because his BA will dip below .300, and it could possibly happen by the end of this season. At the beginning of the season, his career BA was .307, it has now gone down to .303 through 81 games this season. If he keeps up the same pace of hits throughout the season, then his BA will be at .299 by the end of the season. As much as I want him to be a member of that club, he won't be.:(:

StepsInSC
07-02-2007, 12:40 AM
Frank will not be a member of that club by the time he retires because his BA will dip below .300, and it could possibly happen by the end of this season. At the beginning of the season, his career BA was .307, it has now gone down to .303 through 81 games this season. If he keeps up the same pace of hits throughout the season, then his BA will be at .299 by the end of the season. As much as I want him to be a member of that club, he won't be.:(:

Maybe he'll pull a Kruk?

A. Cavatica
07-02-2007, 12:54 AM
FRANK THOMAS IS ONE OF TEN PLAYERS IN MAJOR LEAGUE HISTORY WITH AT LEAST A .300 CAREER average, 400 home runs. 1,000 RBI, 1,000 runs scored and 1,000 walks.

Raise the bar to 500 HR and you can eliminate Bagwell, Gehrig, & Musial.

That's right -- if you use traditional stats to measure him, Frank has a case for being one of the 7 best hitters of all time. But if his average falls below .300 he'll damage his HoF chances a bit; such is the fascination with round numbers.

If you use a better-crafted stat like Adjusted OPS+, Frank ties for 16th with Hank Greenberg, Johnny Mize, and Tris Speaker, and beats out Mays, Aaron, & Ott. It's pretty clear he's among the 20 best hitters of all time.

johnr1note
07-02-2007, 07:13 AM
Raise the bar to 500 HR and you can eliminate Bagwell, Gehrig, & Musial.

That's right -- if you use traditional stats to measure him, Frank has a case for being one of the 7 best hitters of all time. But if his average falls below .300 he'll damage his HoF chances a bit; such is the fascination with round numbers.

If you use a better-crafted stat like Adjusted OPS+, Frank ties for 16th with Hank Greenberg, Johnny Mize, and Tris Speaker, and beats out Mays, Aaron, & Ott. It's pretty clear he's among the 20 best hitters of all time.

The second statistical category I cited in my previous post is the more impressive. Big Frank went 7 consecutive seasons with a .300 BA, 20-Plus
HR, 100 RBI, 100 Runs, and 100 BB. No one else has come close. Ted Williams had 6, but spent 3 years in the service in between the first 3. All others best was 4, including Ruth.

russ99
07-02-2007, 10:43 AM
Bagwell and Frank are very similar hitters. Frank has the slight edge over Bagwell though.

I disagee, solely because Bagwell played the field and excelled at 1B, while Thomas was primarily a DH.

Still, I hope they both make it to the Hall.

If they let that bum Sandberg into the HOF, Biggio's certainly getting in.

johnr1note
07-02-2007, 11:29 AM
I disagee, solely because Bagwell played the field and excelled at 1B, while Thomas was primarily a DH.

Still, I hope they both make it to the Hall.

If they let that bum Sandberg into the HOF, Biggio's certainly getting in.

I think Frank is unfairly knocked for being a "poor" first baseman. His career fielding percentage above average - at least commensurate with the statistics of most HOF caliber first basemen. His career range factor is about a half point below the average hall of fame first baseman -- most HOF 1st baseman have a 9 or better as a RF, Frank's is 8.66. That means he didn't get to a lot of balls others got to. On the other hand, Frank is as good or better than some of those HOF guys at 1B, including guys like Stargell, McCovey, Tony Perez, Frank Robinson, and Harmon Killebrew.

Frank played DH because the position was available, and he wanted to. Frank was "primarily" a DH in that over half his career at bats were at DH, but its not like he's been a DH his whole career.

Frank was no great shakes in the field, but he wasn't the total butcher everyone makes him out to be. The total package of Frank Thomas belongs in the HOF. And on the first ballot.

voodoochile
07-02-2007, 11:56 AM
I think Frank is unfairly knocked for being a "poor" first baseman. His career fielding percentage above average - at least commensurate with the statistics of most HOF caliber first basemen. His career range factor is about a half point below the average hall of fame first baseman -- most HOF 1st baseman have a 9 or better as a RF, Frank's is 8.66. That means he didn't get to a lot of balls others got to. On the other hand, Frank is as good or better than some of those HOF guys at 1B, including guys like Stargell, McCovey, Tony Perez, Frank Robinson, and Harmon Killebrew.

Frank played DH because the position was available, and he wanted to. Frank was "primarily" a DH in that over half his career at bats were at DH, but its not like he's been a DH his whole career.

Frank was no great shakes in the field, but he wasn't the total butcher everyone makes him out to be. The total package of Frank Thomas belongs in the HOF. And on the first ballot.

Talking about a 1B defense is just plain silly. There is a reason the slowest worst defender who could hit a ton has traditionally played 1B.

None of the 1B in the hall are there because of their defensive skills. I seriously doubt it even played a factor in the decision to vote them in. It's just not something anyone even considers...

russ99
07-03-2007, 11:53 AM
Talking about a 1B defense is just plain silly. There is a reason the slowest worst defender who could hit a ton has traditionally played 1B.

None of the 1B in the hall are there because of their defensive skills. I seriously doubt it even played a factor in the decision to vote them in. It's just not something anyone even considers...

I watched Bagwell play first a long time and he certainly excelled at the position, at least until the shoulder problem caught up with him.

I do see the point about Frank, as if anyone compares "range factor" when voting for the HOF, but we should get used to the idea that Frank will have it a bit tougher time getting in due to the DH bias among sportswriters.

That's why I'm thinking maybe 3rd ballot for Frank and 2nd for Bagwell.