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Rockabilly
06-27-2007, 06:33 AM
From the NY Post


Asked yesterday about the lack of pop in the Yankees' lineup - the team began play ranked seventh in the AL in homers - Joe Torre indicated it's a concern that could be addressed through a trade.
"We've lost a couple of first basemen this year, so that would be one area," Torre said. "You wouldn't replace any of the outfielders and you wouldn't replace any of the infielders or the catcher, so it's a matter of finding someone who can give you a little pop or would be a threat." Paul Konerko of the White Sox and Tampa Bay's Ty Wigginton are two of the more attractive possibilities at first base.

The Immigrant
06-27-2007, 07:01 AM
Apparently the NY Post doesn't understand the concept of a no-trade clause.

itsnotrequired
06-27-2007, 07:11 AM
Apparently the NY Post doesn't understand the concept of a no-trade clause.

Konerko has a limited no-trade clause against six clubs. I'm not sure what they are though. In any event, he could always waive it.

Still, I highly doubt something like this would happen. What would the Yankees offer up for Konerko? And who would play first? Gload is gone, Erstad's hurt, Thome is too fragile. Rogowski? Hall? Would we get Mientkiewicz in the deal?

This makes little sense.

JohnTucker0814
06-27-2007, 07:48 AM
This makes little sense.

This does make little sense unless we are getting Hughes back in return... then flip prospects to texas for Tiexiera... =) that would be okay... however I'd assume NYY would go after Tiexiera instead of Konerko if they could...

itsnotrequired
06-27-2007, 07:54 AM
This does make little sense unless we are getting Hughes back in return... then flip prospects to texas for Tiexiera... =) that would be okay... however I'd assume NYY would go after Tiexiera instead of Konerko if they could...

Does Texas really want to get rid of Tiexiera? The only real prospects left in the Sox system are pitchers and many of them were added just this year. I would hate to see a lot of young arms shipped out for Tiexiera.

roadrunner
06-27-2007, 08:53 AM
And who would play first?


Legitimate concern. A look at the free agents after this season reveals no decent candidates. Even though the back end of PK's contract does not look very attractive, the drop off to the next player would be very big.

I would rather send them Thome for Cabrera.

Gammons Peter
06-27-2007, 09:13 AM
who would play first?.

Dye....we're re-signing everybody :)

itsnotrequired
06-27-2007, 09:14 AM
Legitimate concern. A look at the free agents after this season reveals no decent candidates. Even though the back end of PK's contract does not look very attractive, the drop off to the next player would be very big.

I would rather send them Thome for Cabrera.

How does the back end of Konerko's contract not look attractive? It isn't a back-loaded contract. When inflation is factored in, the Sox are essentially paying him less and less each season. That is a very attractive contract.

FJA
06-27-2007, 09:17 AM
I'm not a huge Paulie fan, but as others have already mentioned, his contract is good and we have no one but perhaps Andy Gonzalez to play 1st. No thank you.

The NY Post is not exactly known for its journalistic prowess. I'm going to go with this being them making **** up.

eriqjaffe
06-27-2007, 09:20 AM
Yeah, this is another case of the New York media just assuming the Yankees can go out and get any player they want at the deadline.

rdivaldi
06-27-2007, 09:21 AM
Yeah, this is another case of the New York media just assuming the Yankees can go out and get any player they want at the deadline.

You can lump the Red Sox and the Mets in with them too. The East Coast hype machine is smothering us right now.

southside rocks
06-27-2007, 09:26 AM
From the NY Post


Asked yesterday about the lack of pop in the Yankees' lineup - the team began play ranked seventh in the AL in homers - Joe Torre indicated it's a concern that could be addressed through a trade.
"We've lost a couple of first basemen this year, so that would be one area," Torre said. "You wouldn't replace any of the outfielders and you wouldn't replace any of the infielders or the catcher, so it's a matter of finding someone who can give you a little pop or would be a threat." Paul Konerko of the White Sox and Tampa Bay's Ty Wigginton are two of the more attractive possibilities at first base.

I notice that it wasn't Torre who mentioned the names Konerko and Wigginton; those were thrown in by the writer. Um, enough said. :rolleyes:

roadrunner
06-27-2007, 09:28 AM
How does the back end of Konerko's contract not look attractive? It isn't a back-loaded contract. When inflation is factored in, the Sox are essentially paying him less and less each season. That is a very attractive contract.

You've been impressed with his play this year?

Mr. White Sox
06-27-2007, 09:29 AM
"Hmm, those White Sox are a terrible team...I know! I'll mention their best players as possibilities to land on the Yankees! Then I'll write a column on how you make a trade for those players as long as you don't trade Hughes, Chamberlain, Tabata or Kennedy! GENIUS!"

itsnotrequired
06-27-2007, 10:07 AM
You've been impressed with his play this year?

No.

Do you want to trade anyone who struggles?

veeter
06-27-2007, 10:10 AM
Paulie isn't going anywhere.

ilsox7
06-27-2007, 10:12 AM
Doesn't PK have a NTC until he becomes a 10/5 guy anyways? I don't think he can be traded without approving any deal.

itsnotrequired
06-27-2007, 10:12 AM
Doesn't PK have a NTC until he becomes a 10/5 guy anyways? I don't think he can be traded without approving any deal.

NTC to six teams only (teams unknown).

ilsox7
06-27-2007, 10:21 AM
NTC to six teams only (teams unknown).

That's right. He is almost a 10/5 guy now as it stands. I am not sure how they calculate partial years, but he 9 full years plus this half year and a handful of service time in 1997. He's getting close, either way.

roadrunner
06-27-2007, 10:55 AM
Do you want to trade anyone who struggles?

No.

I just think that the money could be better spent elsewhere.

Can we at least agree that, in general, the team needs to get younger and faster?

I'm not trying to say that we're going to get a speedster at first just that in terms of asset allocation the big money guys should be five tool type of players or pitchers.

itsnotrequired
06-27-2007, 11:12 AM
No.

I just think that the money could be better spent elsewhere.

Can we at least agree that, in general, the team needs to get younger and faster?

I'm not trying to say that we're going to get a speedster at first just that in terms of asset allocation the big money guys should be five tool type of players or pitchers.

I agree the team as a whole needs to get younger and faster but I'm not too worried about a slow slugger at first base. Konerko is a 162-game average .282, 31 HR, 101 RBI player. That type of production is difficult to replace and IMHO, unnecessary. Konerko is only 31 so it isn't like the rest home is around the corner.

"5 tool players" are pretty darn rare.

JohnTucker0814
06-27-2007, 11:13 AM
No.

I just think that the money could be better spent elsewhere.

Can we at least agree that, in general, the team needs to get younger and faster?

I'm not trying to say that we're going to get a speedster at first just that in terms of asset allocation the big money guys should be five tool type of players or pitchers.

There are maybe 5 players that you can consider 5 tool players. Paulie has had a good track record of being a 3/4 tool player, runs, hr, rbi, ave (over .290). What else do you want?

5 tool players: (maybe)

Carlos Beltran (career ave . 280)
David Wright (excelled this year in sb, previous high 20)
Jimmy Rollins (career 100 hr)
Alfonso Soriano (career ave .282)
Grady Sizemore (career ave. 285)

I'm sure I've missed a lot of guys... but there are not many true 5 tool players!

balke
06-27-2007, 11:55 AM
Paulie signed here because he built a house here, and loves it in Chicago. I mean, unless he wants to be in NY I think he'll stay here. It was a big deal for him to stay in Chicago last time it seemed like.

itsnotrequired
06-27-2007, 11:57 AM
Paulie signed here because he built a house here, and loves it in Chicago. I mean, unless he wants to be in NY I think he'll stay here. It was a big deal for him to stay in Chicago last time it seemed like.

Don't forget the Thome signing. That was key in Konerko returning.

soxfan13
06-27-2007, 11:59 AM
I agree the team as a whole needs to get younger and faster but I'm not too worried about a slow slugger at first base. Konerko is a 162-game average .282, 31 HR, 101 RBI player. That type of production is difficult to replace and IMHO, unnecessary. Konerko is only 31 so it isn't like the rest home is around the corner.

"5 tool players" are pretty darn rare.

Especially 5 tool players that play first base:tongue: agree with you that we need to get younger and faster also agree that Paulie shouldnt go. :gulp:

eriqjaffe
06-27-2007, 01:13 PM
Don't forget the Thome signing. That was key in Konerko returning.Yeah, Konerko was desperate to get rid of Rowand. ;)

JB98
06-27-2007, 01:18 PM
No.

I just think that the money could be better spent elsewhere.

Can we at least agree that, in general, the team needs to get younger and faster?

I'm not trying to say that we're going to get a speedster at first just that in terms of asset allocation the big money guys should be five tool type of players or pitchers.

There's absolutely no question that we need to get younger and faster. But you can't trade all your power either. Among the three sluggers (Thome, PK and Dye), Paulie is the youngest and we have cost certainty with him for the next few years.

Given our predicament, I believe KW should consider any offer he gets for any player in our organization. However, there are certain players that I'd prefer he not trade, and Konerko is one of them.

BTW, Paulie's been hitting over .300 for the last six weeks. His overall numbers look bad, but if he stays healthy, he'll get to where he usually is by the end of the year.

Tragg
06-27-2007, 01:42 PM
At this point we will probably need a replacement for Jermaine and a real lead-off hitter...adding a power hitting first baseman to that list would be tough (although, for the right price, everyone should be expendable I guess).

getonbckthr
06-27-2007, 02:06 PM
At this point we will probably need a replacement for Jermaine and a real lead-off hitter...adding a power hitting first baseman to that list would be tough (although, for the right price, everyone should be expendable I guess).
I know a guy who does both.........

oeo
06-27-2007, 02:08 PM
I know a guy who does both.........

A middle-of-the-order power hitter and a leadoff hitter at the same time? :?:

getonbckthr
06-27-2007, 02:11 PM
A middle-of-the-order power hitter and a leadoff hitter at the same time? :?:
I was thinking more of a guy who could play right and leadoff but Ya I guess power hitter was meant there. Ummmmm Can Andruw Jones leadoff:D:

pmck003
06-27-2007, 07:26 PM
Would the Yanks do Thome for Milky? kinda makes sense for us and them if they don't mind having damon in cf.

ilsox7
06-27-2007, 07:28 PM
Would the Yanks do Thome for Milky? kinda makes sense for us and them if they don't mind having damon in cf.

I doubt Thome approves that trade.

MRM
06-27-2007, 07:37 PM
I would rather send them Thome for Cabrera.

ROFL. I'm sure you would. I'm equally sure the Yankees would laugh Kenny off the phone if he proposed it.

MRM
06-27-2007, 07:38 PM
Doesn't PK have a NTC until he becomes a 10/5 guy anyways? I don't think he can be traded without approving any deal.

No. He has a limited NTC. He becomes a 10/5 guy early next year.

Frater Perdurabo
06-27-2007, 07:49 PM
Does Texas really want to get rid of Tiexiera? The only real prospects left in the Sox system are pitchers and many of them were added just this year. I would hate to see a lot of young arms shipped out for Tiexiera.

Yes. Texas is tiring of "Tex." Apparently he was one of the leaders among the players wanting to sack Buck Showalter; now he has big problems with Ron Washington. Also, he's said to have a poor attitude. Combined with his agent (Boras), the Rangers are likely to deal him soon, while he still is under contract for more than a year, rather than lose him for nothing more than draft picks.

MRM
06-27-2007, 07:50 PM
Paulie signed here because he built a house here, and loves it in Chicago.

That's totally contrary to everything I've read about Konerko absolutely HATING Chicago weather (he even commented on this during the parade), lives out west (Las Vegas?) and, by his own words, was VERY close to signing for the Angels for just slightly more money until the Sox showed a commitment to repeat by trading for Thome. Konerko didn't give the Sox much of a "home town" discount by any means.

Frater Perdurabo
06-27-2007, 07:52 PM
There are maybe 5 players that you can consider 5 tool players. Paulie has had a good track record of being a 3/4 tool player, runs, hr, rbi, ave (over .290). What else do you want?

5 tool players: (maybe)

Carlos Beltran (career ave . 280)
David Wright (excelled this year in sb, previous high 20)
Jimmy Rollins (career 100 hr)
Alfonso Soriano (career ave .282)
Grady Sizemore (career ave. 285)

I'm sure I've missed a lot of guys... but there are not many true 5 tool players!

Ummm, IIRC, the five tools are hitting for power, hitting for average, speed, glove and arm strength.

Paulie has one legitimate tool - power - and some of the time a second tool - average. He's a two-tool player at best. If he had any of the other three tools, he likely would not be a first baseman.

Martinigirl
06-27-2007, 07:54 PM
That's totally contrary to everything I've read about Konerko absolutely HATING Chicago weather (he even commented on this during the parade), lives out west (Las Vegas?) and, by his own words, was VERY close to signing for the Angels for just slightly more money until the Sox showed a commitment to repeat by trading for Thome. Konerko didn't give the Sox much of a "home town" discount by any means.

He lives in Arizona, said he wanted to play closer to home and was offered more money by other teams, yet he chose to come back to the Sox. I would think all of those things indicate not only a 'hometown discount' but also a loyalty to the Sox.

Jurr
06-27-2007, 08:04 PM
Ummm, IIRC, the five tools are hitting for power, hitting for average, speed, glove and arm strength.

Paulie has one legitimate tool - power - and some of the time a second tool - average. He's a two-tool player at best. If he had any of the other three tools, he likely would not be a first baseman.
come on, man. He's got a good glove. He rarely screws up a play, and he's got pretty good range for such a slow player.

MRM
06-27-2007, 08:25 PM
He lives in Arizona, said he wanted to play closer to home and was offered more money by other teams, yet he chose to come back to the Sox. I would think all of those things indicate not only a 'hometown discount' but also a loyalty to the Sox.

He was offered SLIGHTLY more money by the Angels and Orioles, and has said he didn't even consider the Sox until the went and got Thome. With the negligable amount of $$$ involved and the emotion of coming off winning a World Series I'd hardly call it a "discount".

Brian26
06-27-2007, 08:28 PM
He was offered SLIGHTLY more money by the Angels and Orioles, and has said he didn't even consider the Sox until the went and got Thome. With the negligable amount of $$$ involved and the emotion of coming off winning a World Series I'd hardly call it a "discount".

I wouldn't call it a discount either, but your comment that he "didn't even consider the Sox" is absurd.

Frater Perdurabo
06-27-2007, 08:31 PM
come on, man. He's got a good glove. He rarely screws up a play, and he's got pretty good range for such a slow player.

Good glove? How many Gold Gloves has he won?

As first basemen go, he's decent at stabbing line drives (good instincts) and also digging some balls out of the dirt. But as ondafarm has pointed out (and since then I have noticed), often his positioning when receiving throws isn't very good. That means that he either has to reach too far to catch a wide (but catchable) throw, or misses it for a throwing error charged to the thrower (usually Uribe).

When he was acquired, Schueler said PK would play both third and first base - he'd be a part-time replacement for Robin Ventura. How much third base has he played? EIGHT games in his Sox career. (1 in 99 and 7 in 2000; most of those were in interleague games in NL parks where Jerry Manuel wanted to make sure Frank Thomas was able to bat.)

If his glove was that good, he'd have played a lot more games at third until Crede was ready. Instead, while waiting for Crede, the Sox relied on career journeymen like Greg Norton, Herbert Perry and even Jose Valentin to play third while PK played first full-time.

ilsox7
06-27-2007, 08:31 PM
I wouldn't call it a discount either, but your comment that he "didn't even consider the Sox" is absurd.

Yep. And the word from the O's was they planned to offer more, but PK made it clear he was going back to the Sox, so they withdrew from making any further offers.

Martinigirl
06-27-2007, 08:33 PM
He was offered SLIGHTLY more money by the Angels and Orioles, and has said he didn't even consider the Sox until the went and got Thome. With the negligable amount of $$$ involved and the emotion of coming off winning a World Series I'd hardly call it a "discount".

But the facts that the Angels spring training facility would have been closer to his house and CA is a lot closer than Chicago to AZ, along with more money would have logically made the Angels a slam dunk (or at least the Angels thought so). But something made him come back here. So what was it if it wasn't that he wanted to remain a member of the Chicago White Sox? What possible reason would he have to pick a place that is paying him less and is further from his home, wife and newborn child?

Frater Perdurabo
06-27-2007, 08:35 PM
But the facts that the Angels spring training facility would have been closer to his house and CA is a lot closer than Chicago to AZ, along with more money would have logically made the Angels a slam dunk (or at least the Angels thought so). But something made him come back here. So what was it if it wasn't that he wanted to remain a member of the Chicago White Sox? What possible reason would he have to pick a place that is paying him less and is further from his home, wife and newborn child?

Acquiring a lefty bat like Thome made the Sox prohibitive favorites to repeat as champs. If I were Paulie, I too would have chosen to stay with the Sox as long as the money and years were close.

ilsox7
06-27-2007, 08:37 PM
Acquiring a lefty bat like Thome made the Sox prohibitive favorites to repeat as champs. If I were Paulie, I too would have chosen to stay with the Sox as long as the money and years were close.

Yes, PK is on record as saying getting Thome was the single best recruitment device the Sox used. That's not to say he didn't consider the Sox before the Thome acquisition, but it certainly was the nail in the coffin according to PK.

Frater Perdurabo
06-27-2007, 08:39 PM
Yes, PK is on record as saying getting Thome was the single best recruitment device the Sox used. That's not to say he didn't consider the Sox before the Thome acquisition, but it certainly was the nail in the coffin according to PK.

To be sure, PK got JR to cave in on the fifth year by giving him the ball from the final out. That was a smart move on Paulie's part - it made him even more of a fan favorite and put pressure (albeit positive pressure) on JR to go the extra mile to keep him.

MRM
06-27-2007, 08:45 PM
But the facts that the Angels spring training facility would have been closer to his house and CA is a lot closer than Chicago to AZ, along with more money would have logically made the Angels a slam dunk (or at least the Angels thought so). But something made him come back here. So what was it if it wasn't that he wanted to remain a member of the Chicago White Sox? What possible reason would he have to pick a place that is paying him less and is further from his home, wife and newborn child?

Jim Thome. He said as much himself. That and the emotion of winning with the team that actually gave him a legit chance. (The Dodgers and Reds both gave up on him prematurely).

No Thome=No Konerko. I think Paul made that abundently clear.

His wife and newborn are in Chicago with him during the season so that's not an issue.

MRM
06-27-2007, 08:47 PM
To be sure, PK got JR to cave in on the fifth year by giving him the ball from the final out.

When that happened, I looked at my wife and said "That is PK saying 'it's time to pay me' ".

MRM
06-27-2007, 08:52 PM
I wouldn't call it a discount either, but your comment that he "didn't even consider the Sox" is absurd.

No it's not. He flat said he was "this close" to signing with the Angels and the reason he took the Sox offer was the signing of Thome. Even then, he admitted he had trouble turning down the Angels because of their location to his home. Baltimore was a pawn in the process whom he never was going to play for under any circumstances, but the Sox had zero chance of signing him before the Thome deal.

ilsox7
06-27-2007, 08:56 PM
No it's not. He flat said he was "this close" to signing with the Angels and the reason he took the Sox offer was the signing of Thome. Even then, he admitted he had trouble turning down the Angels because of their location to his home. Baltimore was a pawn in the process whom he never was going to play for under any circumstances, but the Sox had zero chance of signing him before the Thome deal.

Brian26 is right and you're wrong, according to PK. He said that it was one of the most agonizing decisions of his life, but in the end, Thome put him over the edge. To say he never considered the Sox until the Thome acquisition is completely wrong according to the man who made the decision: PK.

Hence, it's absurd.

Brian26
06-27-2007, 09:38 PM
No it's not. He flat said he was "this close" to signing with the Angels and the reason he took the Sox offer was the signing of Thome. Even then, he admitted he had trouble turning down the Angels because of their location to his home. Baltimore was a pawn in the process whom he never was going to play for under any circumstances, but the Sox had zero chance of signing him before the Thome deal.

Zero chance? Again, that's absurd. It's insane to continue debating this with you. Please, move on.

MRM
06-27-2007, 09:49 PM
Brian26 is right and you're wrong, according to PK. He said that it was one of the most agonizing decisions of his life, but in the end, Thome put him over the edge.

I'd love to see the source you have where PK made such a statement because I sure never saw it.

ilsox7
06-27-2007, 09:53 PM
I'd love to see the source you have where PK made such a statement because I sure never saw it.

It was all over the news and WSI.

"It was far from that," Konerko added. "It wore me down over the last few weeks more than anything that has probably happened on the field. I've never been so torn over things.
"This was a roller coaster back and forth, and it honestly caught me off guard and it was tough. Ultimately, I got what I wanted. The original goal I had in mind, it worked out."
Source. (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051130&content_id=1274138&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp)

EDIT: The "that" he refers to in the first quote is his previous reference that it would be an easy situation.

Nellie_Fox
06-28-2007, 12:50 AM
Do you want to trade anyone who struggles?That's been a fairly common theme on here the last couple of weeks. Almost every player on the team has had a poster wanting them traded, DFA'd, or released.

A big example is Iguchi. He's been having a down year after a couple of really solid ones, and I think that half the posters want him gone. There is not much patience for a down year among the fandom.

oeo
06-28-2007, 01:13 AM
Good glove? How many Gold Gloves has he won?

As first basemen go, he's decent at stabbing line drives (good instincts) and also digging some balls out of the dirt. But as ondafarm has pointed out (and since then I have noticed), often his positioning when receiving throws isn't very good. That means that he either has to reach too far to catch a wide (but catchable) throw, or misses it for a throwing error charged to the thrower (usually Uribe).

When he was acquired, Schueler said PK would play both third and first base - he'd be a part-time replacement for Robin Ventura. How much third base has he played? EIGHT games in his Sox career. (1 in 99 and 7 in 2000; most of those were in interleague games in NL parks where Jerry Manuel wanted to make sure Frank Thomas was able to bat.)

If his glove was that good, he'd have played a lot more games at third until Crede was ready. Instead, while waiting for Crede, the Sox relied on career journeymen like Greg Norton, Herbert Perry and even Jose Valentin to play third while PK played first full-time.

I'm not saying he's a Gold Glover, but do you realize how many throwing errors he saves from Crede and Uribe on any average day? To blame Uribe's inability to make good throws sometimes on Paulie, is ridiculous.

Not that this comes as a surprise from you, though. We get it, you don't like Paulie for whatever reason...sucks to be you, because he's not going anywhere soon.

CWSpalehoseCWS
06-28-2007, 01:54 AM
That's been a fairly common them on here the last couple of weeks. Almost every player on the team has had a poster wanting them traded, DFA'd, or released.

A big example is Iguchi. He's been having a down year after a couple of really solid ones, and I think that half the posters want him gone. There is not much patience for a down year among the fandom.

I can't stand that. Every player has their ups and downs and strengths and weaknesses. I don't understand why some people can't accept that.

Frater Perdurabo
06-28-2007, 06:57 AM
I'm not saying he's a Gold Glover, but do you realize how many throwing errors he saves from Crede and Uribe on any average day? To blame Uribe's inability to make good throws sometimes on Paulie, is ridiculous.

Not that this comes as a surprise from you, though. We get it, you don't like Paulie for whatever reason...sucks to be you, because he's not going anywhere soon.

My friend, I'm only being honest. Paulie gets way too much credit around here. Yes, he's a good player. He's a 3-time All-Star. But he's not an MVP-type player. He's not a HOF-er. His production most closely resembles players like Carlos Lee, Jermaine Dye, Cliff Floyd, Kevin Mitchell, Matt Stairs, Kent Hrbek, etc. (I'm not making this up.) He hits a good number of homers in a stadium friendly to RH power hitters. He's been among league leaders a few times in a few categories. He's never sniffed a Gold Glove. He's batted . 224 in his playoff career (but did hit some big homers with guys on base in the ALCS and WS). He's made some stupid statements in the media (Royce Clayton being the "best defensive shortstop" comes to mind). He's prone to long slumps - usually in tandem with slumps by other Sox players. Among Sox fans, he's as overrated as Aaron Rowand. I wish Paulie success - as I do all Sox players. I want him to club a homer every time he steps to the plate and I cheer every time he does something good with the bat. He's a nice complementary piece to a team - especially a team with some speed in front of him (like the 2005 Sox). But IMHO he's not a "cornerstone" player, and paying him like one reduces the amount of money the team can invest in other positions.

itsnotrequired
06-28-2007, 07:36 AM
My friend, I'm only being honest. Paulie gets way too much credit around here. Yes, he's a good player. He's a 3-time All-Star. But he's not an MVP-type player. He's not a HOF-er. His production most closely resembles players like Carlos Lee, Jermaine Dye, Cliff Floyd, Kevin Mitchell, Matt Stairs, Kent Hrbek, etc. (I'm not making this up.) He hits a good number of homers in a stadium friendly to RH power hitters. He's been among league leaders a few times in a few categories. He's never sniffed a Gold Glove. He's batted . 224 in his playoff career (but did hit some big homers with guys on base in the ALCS and WS). He's made some stupid statements in the media (Royce Clayton being the "best defensive shortstop" comes to mind). He's prone to long slumps - usually in tandem with slumps by other Sox players. Among Sox fans, he's as overrated as Aaron Rowand. I wish Paulie success - as I do all Sox players. I want him to club a homer every time he steps to the plate and I cheer every time he does something good with the bat. He's a nice complementary piece to a team - especially a team with some speed in front of him (like the 2005 Sox). But IMHO he's not a "cornerstone" player, and paying him like one reduces the amount of money the team can invest in other positions.

Konerko got the money he did largely because he signed when his value was as high as it had been his entire career. Two other teams wanted to give him five year deals, one of which offered $1 million more per season. Had the Sox resigned Konerko in early 2005, they probably could have gotten him for something like a 4/$40 million deal. The Sox offered a relatively early extension to Garland and got him for great value considering his production and the current market for quality starting pitchers.

You win some, you lose some...

The Immigrant
06-28-2007, 07:43 AM
You win some, you lose some...

Exactly. Konerko had the good fortune of going on an absolute tear in the 2005 playoffs. His value was at an all-time high, but that's the gamble the Sox took.

itsnotrequired
06-28-2007, 07:56 AM
Exactly. Konerko had the good fortune of going on an absolute tear in the 2005 playoffs. His value was at an all-time high, but that's the gamble the Sox took.

And I feel it is a worthwhile gamble. 2006 was arguably the best year of his career so far (career bests in AVE, OBP, SLG, H, TB and second best in RBI, R). The signing looked great. Konerko has been in a funk most of the season but I believe he will turn it around. He has already started doing so and is hitting .296 this month, most of that in the last couple weeks.

Lukin13
06-28-2007, 08:11 AM
That's been a fairly common theme on here the last couple of weeks. Almost every player on the team has had a poster wanting them traded, DFA'd, or released.

A big example is Iguchi. He's been having a down year after a couple of really solid ones, and I think that half the posters want him gone. There is not much patience for a down year among the fandom.


Bingo!

The same people that were calling for Buehrle to be dealt last year are now demanding that he be resigned this year.

The guy has 15 solid starts and a no hitter and he goes from trash that needs to be shipped out to the highest paid pitcher in team history.

Crazy.

Just to add fuel to the fire though :wink: ..... How long would it take Fields to convert to a servicable first baseman??

AZChiSoxFan
06-28-2007, 10:08 AM
I'm not saying he's a Gold Glover, but do you realize how many throwing errors he saves from Crede and Uribe on any average day? To blame Uribe's inability to make good throws sometimes on Paulie, is ridiculous.

Not that this comes as a surprise from you, though. We get it, you don't like Paulie for whatever reason...sucks to be you, because he's not going anywhere soon.

Piece of advice here...don't let Frater get to you. Back in early 2005, he was leading the chorus of those claiming "PK sucks, trade him for a bag 'o balls, blah, blah, blah, etc." Then, later in the year Frater admitted he was wrong and had nice things to say about PK. Glad to know he's gone back to ripping PK again. If PK goes 4 for 4 tonight, look for Frater to be here tomorrow morning praising him again.

AZChiSoxFan
06-28-2007, 10:16 AM
Among Sox fans, he's as overrated as Aaron Rowand. I wish Paulie success - as I do all Sox players. I want him to club a homer every time he steps to the plate and I cheer every time he does something good with the bat. He's a nice complementary piece to a team - especially a team with some speed in front of him (like the 2005 Sox). But IMHO he's not a "cornerstone" player, and paying him like one reduces the amount of money the team can invest in other positions.

Sure, after all, cornerstone players basically put up 30 and 100 every year. If he could just do that, then he'd be a cornerstone player. Wait a minute, come to think of it......nevermind.

You know, I really thought that when PK signed with the Sox for less money that he might have finally endeared himself to the folks here at WSI. Silly me.

I now fully understand why PK is to blame for everything from the Sox bullpen to the war in Iraq.

Martinigirl
06-28-2007, 10:50 AM
You know, I really thought that when PK signed with the Sox for less money that he might have finally endeared himself to the folks here at WSI. Silly me.



He did endear himself to some of us. You know, the people that believe Paulie wants to be here and gave JR the World Series ball because he is a good guy, not as some sort of cash grab.

oeo
06-28-2007, 11:57 AM
And I feel it is a worthwhile gamble. 2006 was arguably the best year of his career so far (career bests in AVE, OBP, SLG, H, TB and second best in RBI, R). The signing looked great. Konerko has been in a funk most of the season but I believe he will turn it around. He has already started doing so and is hitting .296 this month, most of that in the last couple weeks.

It's not uncommon for Paulie to have a slow start. On June 28, 2005 (slow start along with Dye) he was hitting .248. Today he is hitting .250; he'll be back to his career numbers by the end of the year.

Vernam
06-28-2007, 12:09 PM
It's not uncommon for Paulie to have a slow start. On June 28, 2005 (slow start along with Dye) he was hitting .248. Today he is hitting .250; he'll be back to his career numbers by the end of the year.And we'll still be way out of contention, which will partly be his fault no matter how good his final numbers look. Slow starts are one thing, but the second-half stats don't mean jack if we play ourselves out of contention in May and June. During that period, Konerko was among the deadest of the deadwood. I'm not saying that means he's a piece of ****, overpaid, or anything of the sort. But some years, second-half numbers are not what they're cracked up to be -- e.g., Aramis Ramirez last year. This is one of those years for the Sox. It doesn't mean I'd like to see PK traded, but it does mean I don't mind if KW is listening to offers.

Vernam

JB98
06-28-2007, 12:22 PM
And we'll still be way out of contention, which will partly be his fault no matter how good his final numbers look. Slow starts are one thing, but the second-half stats don't mean jack if we play ourselves out of contention in May and June. During that period, Konerko was among the deadest of the deadwood. I'm not saying that means he's a piece of ****, overpaid, or anything of the sort. But some years, second-half numbers are not what they're cracked up to be -- e.g., Aramis Ramirez last year. This is one of those years for the Sox. It doesn't mean I'd like to see PK traded, but it does mean I don't mind if KW is listening to offers.

Vernam

The funny thing is, we played over Paulie's struggles early in the season. He totally sucked the first six weeks, but we hung in the race pretty well. He's hitting over .300 since about mid-May, but despite that, we've absolutely sucked as a team.

I don't think Konerko is a bellweather for anything this year. When he was bad, the team did decent. Now that he's doing better, the team is in the toilet. Go figure.

Frater just has an irrational hate for Konerko. I remember when several here claimed that Konerko was a "clubhouse cancer" with "oral diarrhea" who was "destroying the chemistry" of the 2005 team. I was laughed at for defending Konerko. Four months later, we celebrated our first championship in 88 years, and Konerko was one of the guys who got us there.

If someone blows KW away with an offer for Paulie, he should consider it. Otherwise, keep Paulie. Guys who go .280/30/100 ARE cornerstone players.

oeo
06-28-2007, 12:33 PM
And we'll still be way out of contention, which will partly be his fault no matter how good his final numbers look. Slow starts are one thing, but the second-half stats don't mean jack if we play ourselves out of contention in May and June. During that period, Konerko was among the deadest of the deadwood. I'm not saying that means he's a piece of ****, overpaid, or anything of the sort. But some years, second-half numbers are not what they're cracked up to be -- e.g., Aramis Ramirez last year. This is one of those years for the Sox. It doesn't mean I'd like to see PK traded, but it does mean I don't mind if KW is listening to offers.

Vernam

You're completely forgetting the fact that over the last month our bullpen has gone from one of the best to one of the worst (we're not longer the worst :bandance:) and every guy in the lineup besides Thome had a slow start. Paulie was terrible in April, I will admit, but since then he has not been bad. Had everyone not gone in the ****ter, his second half stats would matter.

He's not going anywhere, so those who want him gone can get over it.

roadrunner
06-28-2007, 03:10 PM
Guys who go .280/30/100 ARE cornerstone players.

It depends. A first baseman in a top two or three hitter's park? I consider that average or maybe slightly above average for the American League.

Frater Perdurabo
06-28-2007, 07:30 PM
Piece of advice here...don't let Frater get to you. Back in early 2005, he was leading the chorus of those claiming "PK sucks, trade him for a bag 'o balls, blah, blah, blah, etc." Then, later in the year Frater admitted he was wrong and had nice things to say about PK. Glad to know he's gone back to ripping PK again. If PK goes 4 for 4 tonight, look for Frater to be here tomorrow morning praising him again.

You've turned the thread from a discussion on Paulie to a caricatured misrepresentation of me.Nice.
:rolleyes:

I now fully understand why PK is to blame for everything from the Sox bullpen to the war in Iraq.

Blatant and obvious exaggeration to make a point detracts from the credibility of your argument.

Frater just has an irrational hate for Konerko.

It's not irrational and it's not hatred.

I've ALWAYS said that I want Sox players to perform well, including Paulie.

When the Sox let Ventura go, later traded Cameron for Paulie, and called him a part-time 3B replacement for Ventura, I've been skeptical. I've always called him what he is - slow, powerful, prone to slumps and usually among the league leaders in GIDP. Finally, he does talk to the media a whole lot. All true.

On his 2006 season-long tear, I started a thread to celebrate Paulie performing at a great level - a level I had always hoped and expected him to attain. I'll say another nice thing about him - he really rakes in All-Star games!

But you know why I don't think it's wise to build around a first baseman (It has nothing to do with Paulie)? Because the Sox didn't win a single World Series building around a far superior and future HOF hitter who played first base - Frank Thomas.

They won the World Series building first around pitching, then good defense and a offense adept at situational hitting that could beat the opponent in many ways. Paulie was a part of that, but not the central reason why the 2005 team won it all. The pitching was the core and cornerstone of 2005!

I think the Sox would have won it in 94, but that's first because they had a great starting rotation (McDowell, Alex, Alvarez and Bere) and then a great offense with speed (Raines, Johnson), good average (Thomas, Franco), good power (Thomas, Ventura) and good situational hitters/bunters/sacrificiers (Cora, Guillen, DJ).

During 2004 and 2005, I argued the Sox should lock up Buehrle and Garland long-term, and build around the rotation. After 2005, I reiterated that argument, and further argued that giving Paulie such a big contract would make it more difficult to lock up MB and JG. Given that "thesis," I've recently argued to deal Paulie because HE HAS VALUE, would bring back quality players in trade, and would free up money to keep MB and JG. I fundamentally agree PK is a good player. He's just not as great as many make him out to be and I'd prefer the Sox build around Buehrle and Garland.

Is that really irrational hatred? :kukoo:

RowanDye
06-28-2007, 08:20 PM
During 2004 and 2005, I argued the Sox should lock up Buehrle and Garland long-term, and build around the rotation. After 2005, I reiterated that argument, and further argued that giving Paulie such a big contract would make it more difficult to lock up MB and JG. Given that "thesis," I've recently argued to deal Paulie because HE HAS VALUE, would bring back quality players in trade, and would free up money to keep MB and JG. I fundamentally agree PK is a good player. He's just not as great as many make him out to be and I'd prefer the Sox build around Buehrle and Garland.

Is that really irrational hatred? :kukoo:

Why does a team with a 100+ million dollar payroll have to choose between pitching and hitting?

As long as the Sox make good decisions on players and contracts, there is really no reason why they can't have MB, JG, AND PK for a long time.

johnnyg83
06-29-2007, 12:40 AM
Does anyone else think that this is just an aberration? A six week slump of good players? Our starting pitching is nails ... I understand Buerhle but why are we going trade Contreras or Vazquez or Garland? Can't we deal Floyd? Can't we absorb a bad year as a bad year with good talent -- get rid of the FAs who can bring something Dye, Iguchi and keep our strength -- SP? Why deplete the one thing that's working for us on maybes and not bads?

I think last winter's market Meche, Lilly was a wakeup call to Kenny and Jerry and they thought they could outsmat it by trading old for young ... and maybe that'll work for the future ... but I still think with a couple of FA position players and some propects from Iguchi, Dye trades we can stay as a contender rather than a rebuilder.

I still think this team is a top 5 AL team. Delusional? Perhaps. But the only teams I think are better are BOS, DET, CLE, LAA and I could argue the latter two.

MISoxfan
07-01-2007, 05:49 PM
The biggest manlove crush that I've ever seen from Sox fans is based around Cameron. He's been gone for 8 and a half seasons and there are still people who are bitter at Konerko over it.