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getonbckthr
06-25-2007, 04:09 PM
There was a point last year where the 06 team was playing and looking better than in 05. In my eyes 3 things changed this team from a team that looked like it was having fun and enjoyed being together as a team. Since these events the team has looked old, boring and down right dead. The events i'm thinking of:
1) Burls being banned from the tarp slide. Sure injury is at risk. However what changed from the first years Burls was doing it to last year.
2) Haircut-gate. A big stink was made about AJ and Crede's hair being too long. Then it was said that this has been a team rule for years. Really well then where was the rule in 05? We aren't the Yankees. I don't want them to be identical robots with similar physical styles wearing business suits all the time looking well groomed. What happened to individuality?
3) Jay Marriotti, Ozzie Guillen, ******. When Ozzie used this term to describe how he felt about Jay Marriotti the backlash and results kind of killed the edge that Ozzie had and made this team what it was. There was a time when Ozzie would say whatever he felt and this team re-eacted to that. The fire Ozzie brought reflected to the team. Now you look at Ozzie and you can tell he has something to say yet he won't say it. He is holding back. I don't want to say in fear, but in being cautious of what will happen. Ozzie's aggressive attitude reflected the teams style. now the passiveness of Ozzie = the team as well.

russ99
06-25-2007, 04:18 PM
There was a point last year where the 06 team was playing and looking better than in 05. In my eyes 3 things changed this team from a team that looked like it was having fun and enjoyed being together as a team. Since these events the team has looked old, boring and down right dead. The events i'm thinking of:
1) Burls being banned from the tarp slide. Sure injury is at risk. However what changed from the first years Burls was doing it to last year.
2) Haircut-gate. A big stink was made about AJ and Crede's hair being too long. Then it was said that this has been a team rule for years. Really well then where was the rule in 05? We aren't the Yankees. I don't want them to be identical robots with similar physical styles wearing business suits all the time looking well groomed. What happened to individuality?
3) Jay Marriotti, Ozzie Guillen, ******. When Ozzie used this term to describe how he felt about Jay Marriotti the backlash and results kind of killed the edge that Ozzie had and made this team what it was. There was a time when Ozzie would say whatever he felt and this team re-eacted to that. The fire Ozzie brought reflected to the team. Now you look at Ozzie and you can tell he has something to say yet he won't say it. He is holding back. I don't want to say in fear, but in being cautious of what will happen. Ozzie's aggressive attitude reflected the teams style. now the passiveness of Ozzie = the team as well.

#1, Most definately. This team needs to have some stupid senseless fun again.

#2, Not likely. Happens all the time in the Majors, these guys should be used to it

#3, Impossible. I refuse to believe anything written in the past/current Great Moronotti Sox Smear, or that it somehow changed Ozzie. I heard that outburst on the Score. :D

kevingrt
06-25-2007, 04:20 PM
I totally agree about the Burly tarp slide too. I also think it hurt our chances of resigning him again.

Who cares about injury the team is already injured enough from not tarp sliding. You might as well let Burly tarp slide

getonbckthr
06-25-2007, 04:30 PM
I totally agree about the Burly tarp slide too. I also think it hurt our chances of resigning him again.

Who cares about injury the team is already injured enough from not tarp sliding. You might as well let Burly tarp slide
Better yet did Burls ever get hurt doing this. I would like to know how he would get hurt doing this? If he would pop his shoulder sliding on a tarp I would be willing to bet the shoulder would be on the verge already.

Flight #24
06-25-2007, 04:32 PM
With the benefit of hindsight, here's the real 3:

#1 - Dropping Frank and trading for Thome. Had they instead gone after a part-time DH/OF to play fulltime and then oscillate between DH and the OF once Frank was healthy, they'd have had more cash, Gio, Haigwood, and Rowand in CF. That strengthens the team, even though Rowand probably wouldn't have hit 87 HR and played all 9 positions simultaneously.

#2 - Trading Young, Duque, Vizcaino for Vazquez and pushing McCarthy to the bullpen. Seemed solid at the time, but it's fallen through. Vaz is good, but they have a dearth of position players and Young's looking OK. Plus, as time has gone on, I've started to better appreciate the mental aspect of having a Duque to turn to at times. The guy was a gamer plain and simple. Plus, they tied up $$$ that could have been used elsewhere (bullpen?).

#3 - Kenny vocally talking about how everything's overpriced when it seems the market is just moving upwards and most other teams find themselves flush with cash (but so far, not the Sox). This is the most confusing of the bunch, and so I'm hoping it's more of Kenny laying low and waiting for this coming offseason.

I understood the arguments at the time, but in the end, GMs need to be evaluated on results, especially when it comes to projecting improvement and development from guys. And dealing Rowand and Young while relying on Anderson, etc has so far been a bad move, even when ignoring the financial aspects involved.

AZChiSoxFan
06-25-2007, 04:54 PM
With the benefit of hindsight, here's the real 3:

#1 - Dropping Frank and trading for Thome. Had they instead gone after a part-time DH/OF to play fulltime and then oscillate between DH and the OF once Frank was healthy, they'd have had more cash, Gio, Haigwood, and Rowand in CF. That strengthens the team, even though Rowand probably wouldn't have hit 87 HR and played all 9 positions simultaneously.

#2 - Trading Young, Duque, Vizcaino for Vazquez and pushing McCarthy to the bullpen. Seemed solid at the time, but it's fallen through. Vaz is good, but they have a dearth of position players and Young's looking OK. Plus, as time has gone on, I've started to better appreciate the mental aspect of having a Duque to turn to at times. The guy was a gamer plain and simple. Plus, they tied up $$$ that could have been used elsewhere (bullpen?).

#3 - Kenny vocally talking about how everything's overpriced when it seems the market is just moving upwards and most other teams find themselves flush with cash (but so far, not the Sox). This is the most confusing of the bunch, and so I'm hoping it's more of Kenny laying low and waiting for this coming offseason.

I understood the arguments at the time, but in the end, GMs need to be evaluated on results, especially when it comes to projecting improvement and development from guys. And dealing Rowand and Young while relying on Anderson, etc has so far been a bad move, even when ignoring the financial aspects involved.

Ding, Ding!! We have a winner!!

kevingrt
06-25-2007, 04:56 PM
Better yet did Burls ever get hurt doing this. I would like to know how he would get hurt doing this? If he would pop his shoulder sliding on a tarp I would be willing to bet the shoulder would be on the verge already.

Sliding into the mound, base or something like that could get your hurt.

JB98
06-25-2007, 05:02 PM
With the benefit of hindsight, here's the real 3:

#1 - Dropping Frank and trading for Thome. Had they instead gone after a part-time DH/OF to play fulltime and then oscillate between DH and the OF once Frank was healthy, they'd have had more cash, Gio, Haigwood, and Rowand in CF. That strengthens the team, even though Rowand probably wouldn't have hit 87 HR and played all 9 positions simultaneously.

#2 - Trading Young, Duque, Vizcaino for Vazquez and pushing McCarthy to the bullpen. Seemed solid at the time, but it's fallen through. Vaz is good, but they have a dearth of position players and Young's looking OK. Plus, as time has gone on, I've started to better appreciate the mental aspect of having a Duque to turn to at times. The guy was a gamer plain and simple. Plus, they tied up $$$ that could have been used elsewhere (bullpen?).

#3 - Kenny vocally talking about how everything's overpriced when it seems the market is just moving upwards and most other teams find themselves flush with cash (but so far, not the Sox). This is the most confusing of the bunch, and so I'm hoping it's more of Kenny laying low and waiting for this coming offseason.

I understood the arguments at the time, but in the end, GMs need to be evaluated on results, especially when it comes to projecting improvement and development from guys. And dealing Rowand and Young while relying on Anderson, etc has so far been a bad move, even when ignoring the financial aspects involved.

That's a more rational post than the initial one in this thread. I agree with you in part, and disagree in part. But I think baseball decisions that have been made have more to do with a current predicament than haircuts, tarp sliding and Ozzie calling someone a "******."

I_Liked_Manuel
06-25-2007, 05:37 PM
rather than pointing to a ban on sliding on the tarp, forcing a couple players to get their hair cut, or an overblown manager/mediot controversy- why don't we look at some things that happened that put us in the position we are in:

pods can't stay healthy
iguchi looks like todd walker out there
thome can't stay healthy
crede is no longer available
uribe got out of shape and regressed
we haven't had a (healthy) CF since 2005
we haven't had a backup catcher that can produce
we can't rely on our bullpen
the ozzie 'sunday lineup'
mackowiak in positions he shouldn't be in
our backup leadoff men are hurt
owens, anderson, and sweeney aren't ready yet- and there are serious questions as to whether or not owens and anderson will every be 'ready'
we're back to not having a 5th starter that can win


imo, even with all of the things i listed- had pods been able to stay healthy, and aardsma, sisco, and macdougal were at least servicable- we would be somewhere within striking distance of the division lead right now.

SluggersAway
06-25-2007, 05:42 PM
You forgot a few things:

No one on the team can hit (minus Thome).

No one on the team can move runners over.

No one on the team can bunt.

No one on the team can run at an adequate speed or steal a base.

No one on the team shows any fire or passion for the game.

ilsox7
06-25-2007, 05:44 PM
With the benefit of hindsight, here's the real 3:

#1 - Dropping Frank and trading for Thome. Had they instead gone after a part-time DH/OF to play fulltime and then oscillate between DH and the OF once Frank was healthy, they'd have had more cash, Gio, Haigwood, and Rowand in CF. That strengthens the team, even though Rowand probably wouldn't have hit 87 HR and played all 9 positions simultaneously.



Just curious how you'd replace PK in this scenario.

ChiSoxIn06
06-25-2007, 05:51 PM
rather than pointing to a ban on sliding on the tarp, forcing a couple players to get their hair cut, or an overblown manager/mediot controversy- why don't we look at some things that happened that put us in the position we are in:

pods can't stay healthy
iguchi looks like todd walker out there
thome can't stay healthy
crede is no longer available
uribe got out of shape and regressed
we haven't had a (healthy) CF since 2005
we haven't had a backup catcher that can produce
we can't rely on our bullpen
the ozzie 'sunday lineup'
mackowiak in positions he shouldn't be in
our backup leadoff men are hurt
owens, anderson, and sweeney aren't ready yet- and there are serious questions as to whether or not owens and anderson will every be 'ready'
we're back to not having a 5th starter that can win


imo, even with all of the things i listed- had pods been able to stay healthy, and aardsma, sisco, and macdougal were at least servicable- we would be somewhere within striking distance of the division lead right now.

I think Danks has done a fine job for a 5th starter...its not his fault that the sox can't hit, he should have a winning record.

wulfy
06-25-2007, 06:27 PM
#3 - Kenny vocally talking about how everything's overpriced when it seems the market is just moving upwards and most other teams find themselves flush with cash (but so far, not the Sox). This is the most confusing of the bunch, and so I'm hoping it's more of Kenny laying low and waiting for this coming offseason.

More than anything, this is what worries me about the Sox ability to re-group quickly and compete in 2008. If JR/KW decide that the free agency market is too rich for their blood, we're going to have to depend on what is in the minors (either as trade bait or coming up to fill key gaps) to re-build this team.

And, quite honestly, that thought terrifies me. This team is terrible at developing major league talent - besides 3B, not one of our starting position players is home grown - that's inexcusable.

kittle42
06-25-2007, 06:55 PM
You forgot a few things:

No one on the team can hit (minus Thome).

No one on the team can move runners over.

No one on the team can bunt.

No one on the team can run at an adequate speed or steal a base.

No one on the team shows any fire or passion for the game.


They'd be able to do all those things if Buehrle was able to slide on a tarp.

TDog
06-25-2007, 06:56 PM
I expected something less silly when I opened this post.

No team would allow tarp sliding. If they did, the would face serious insurance problems. The risks aren't limited to the possibility of a player hurting himself by sliding, although the concern is legitimate enough. I've been at the park when the field was struck by lightning. If the tarp is wet, it is conductive. Anyone sliding on a tarp in that case runs the risk of electrocution, unless the tarp is rolled up around a plastic cyllender these days. More golfers are struck by lightning than baseball players. I'm not being funny. I was struck by lightning 30 years ago and understand the risks.

The third point is the only one I think is legitimate. Ozzie Guillen was a better manager when he was free to be offensive. The Sox have been playing badly since Guillen's sensitivity became a personnel issue. I want Guillen to be offensive. He's a better manager when he is.

Trading Rowand et. al. for Thome was bigger, not because not signing Frank Thomas was a mistake, though. The Sox would have had to pay Thomas more than he signed for in Oakland. Without Kondrko, who wouldn't have re-signed if Thome had not replaced Thomas, it's doubtful the Sox would have had the offense to contend. Getting Thome was good. Giving up Rowand to put an overrated prospect into center was the first event that changed the team.

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-25-2007, 07:01 PM
Unfortunately, I think the one event that changed this team this year was the Tampa Bay game (I was at) a couple Sundays ago. After that game, we just absolutely sucked ass. Reminds me of the Twink game a few years back (2004?) were Torii Hunter collided with Jamie Burke (Game I was also at). After that game, everything went downhill.

Jacob Nelson Fox
06-25-2007, 07:10 PM
There was a point last year where the 06 team was playing and looking better than in 05. In my eyes 3 things changed this team from a team that looked like it was having fun and enjoyed being together as a team. Since these events the team has looked old, boring and down right dead. The events i'm thinking of:
1) Burls being banned from the tarp slide. Sure injury is at risk. However what changed from the first years Burls was doing it to last year.
2) Haircut-gate. A big stink was made about AJ and Crede's hair being too long. Then it was said that this has been a team rule for years. Really well then where was the rule in 05? We aren't the Yankees. I don't want them to be identical robots with similar physical styles wearing business suits all the time looking well groomed. What happened to individuality?
3) Jay Marriotti, Ozzie Guillen, ******. When Ozzie used this term to describe how he felt about Jay Marriotti the backlash and results kind of killed the edge that Ozzie had and made this team what it was. There was a time when Ozzie would say whatever he felt and this team re-eacted to that. The fire Ozzie brought reflected to the team. Now you look at Ozzie and you can tell he has something to say yet he won't say it. He is holding back. I don't want to say in fear, but in being cautious of what will happen. Ozzie's aggressive attitude reflected the teams style. now the passiveness of Ozzie = the team as well.

I agree with you. The emotional charge Ozzie brought to the team is, in my view, very underrated. #3 is the big issue, but your first 2 points are well taken also.

TDog
06-25-2007, 07:17 PM
No team would consent to tarp sliding. If they did, they would face problems with their insurance carrier. It isn't just the risk of injury from the sliding, although that concern is legitimate enough. I have been at the ballpark when the tarp cylinder has been struck by lightning. If the tarp is wet, it is conductive To the best of my knowledge, it hasn't been changed to plastic. It's more common for golfers to be struck by lightning (it has happened at the Western Open in Chicago), or, more accurately for them to conduct lightning that strikes nearby. It happens in youth leagues sometimes, though.

As someone who has been struck by lightning, I'm serious.

It might sound like the White Sox are limiting players fun, but allowing tarp sliding would be irresponsible. It provides nothing more than a momentary rush. While the risk may be minimal, the potential consequences could be severe.

PKalltheway
06-25-2007, 07:27 PM
3) Jay Marriotti, Ozzie Guillen, ******. When Ozzie used this term to describe how he felt about Jay Marriotti the backlash and results kind of killed the edge that Ozzie had and made this team what it was. There was a time when Ozzie would say whatever he felt and this team re-eacted to that. The fire Ozzie brought reflected to the team. Now you look at Ozzie and you can tell he has something to say yet he won't say it. He is holding back. I don't want to say in fear, but in being cautious of what will happen. Ozzie's aggressive attitude reflected the teams style. now the passiveness of Ozzie = the team as well.
I think that affected the team long term more than short term because the Sox were playing their best ball of the year at the time. I think it affected the team long term because Ozzie doesn't seem quite as aggressive now. Just don't let a player call him his enemy though.:wink::tongue:

Parrothead
06-25-2007, 07:29 PM
The real reasons....

Trading Rowand

Trading Rowand

Trading Rowand !

:cool:

roadrunner
06-25-2007, 07:49 PM
With the benefit of hindsight, here's the real 3:

#1 - Dropping Frank and trading for Thome. Had they instead gone after a part-time DH/OF to play fulltime and then oscillate between DH and the OF once Frank was healthy, they'd have had more cash, Gio, Haigwood, and Rowand in CF. That strengthens the team, even though Rowand probably wouldn't have hit 87 HR and played all 9 positions simultaneously.

#2 - Trading Young, Duque, Vizcaino for Vazquez and pushing McCarthy to the bullpen. Seemed solid at the time, but it's fallen through. Vaz is good, but they have a dearth of position players and Young's looking OK. Plus, as time has gone on, I've started to better appreciate the mental aspect of having a Duque to turn to at times. The guy was a gamer plain and simple. Plus, they tied up $$$ that could have been used elsewhere (bullpen?).

#3 - Kenny vocally talking about how everything's overpriced when it seems the market is just moving upwards and most other teams find themselves flush with cash (but so far, not the Sox). This is the most confusing of the bunch, and so I'm hoping it's more of Kenny laying low and waiting for this coming offseason.

I understood the arguments at the time, but in the end, GMs need to be evaluated on results, especially when it comes to projecting improvement and development from guys. And dealing Rowand and Young while relying on Anderson, etc has so far been a bad move, even when ignoring the financial aspects involved.

I could not agree more. As for the posters concerned about the signability of PK in light of #1, my answer is that the PK signing is part of the long term problem facing the team right now. They've got way too much cash tied up in him right now. If they really made the thome trade as part of a plan to appease PK - that is just dumb and only reinforces the point of how bad all the related transactions really were.

I continue to be amazed at all the man love for thome (a career Cleveland Indian) on this board coupled with a complete disrespect for frank's accomplishments. THOME HAS BEEN A BUST SINCE LAST YEAR'S ALL STAR BREAK and is a highly paid, injury prone, over the hill, all or nothing, one dimensional player at this point in his career.

areilly
06-25-2007, 07:51 PM
One thing I have had a problem with is the "Coop'll fix 'em" mentality that has dominated most of the pitching acquisitions ever since St. Coop delivered Esteban Loaiza's miracle 2003. Not that the Sox have a great history of developing pitching, but watching huge gambles become the favored approach has been interesting at best, painful at worst. If a guy is pitching at the major league level, it shouldn't be the coach's job to teach him how to throw strikes.

areilly
06-25-2007, 08:01 PM
I continue to be amazed at all the man love for thome (a career Cleveland Indian) on this board coupled with a complete disrespect for frank's accomplishments. THOME HAS BEEN A BUST SINCE LAST YEAR'S ALL STAR BREAK and is a highly paid, injury prone, over the hill, all or nothing, one dimensional player at this point in his career.

Sox fans went from equating "DH" with a perpetually aching guy who played less than 100 games a year and was increasingly surly towards the city and fans that made him famous to equating that some position with a guy who came out swinging and made room for what was, at the time, the shining future of the White Sox outfield.

Frank, for what it's worth, is hitting .242 this year for Toronto's $5.5 million. They're essentially the same player, Thome just happens to hit left and not get into public pissing contests with his former employer. Let it go.

Brian26
06-25-2007, 08:40 PM
If we're picking silly answers, here's mine:

I'm saying it's all because of some crazy karma pendulum-swing because Ozzie took too many of our guys to the All-Star Game last year. Maybe it's some sort of penance because we all punched AJ too many times.

dakuda
06-25-2007, 08:48 PM
Unfortunately, I think the one event that changed this team this year was the Tampa Bay game (I was at) a couple Sundays ago. After that game, we just absolutely sucked ass. Reminds me of the Twink game a few years back (2004?) were Torii Hunter collided with Jamie Burke (Game I was also at). After that game, everything went downhill.

Here is the solution then: you need to stop going to games.
:D:

billyvsox
06-25-2007, 10:13 PM
Here's my 3 - in no particular order.

1) Thome for Rowand, etc. This was a killer at the time and only because Thome hit a bunch of HR's early last season did we not see it. Aaron was the heart of this team, he made PK, AJ and Crede go as well. Paulie may have been the leader of this group (which also included Buherle and Garland), but Aaron was heart. Thome is basically an all or nothing #3 hitter, bunch of HR's, tons of strikeouts. At least Crazy Carl could hit a sac fly. At best Thome should hit 5th.

2) Ridding the team of Everett, Willie, El Duque (for vazquez - are you kidding me). There is much to be said for role players and good clubhouse guys like this, that cannot be replaced. Then releasing Widger and Politte, 2 very well liked guys, and KW lying and saying Widger didn't prepare-give me a break. His credibility with the rest of the guys was finally lost.

3) Finally, the Ozzie-Mariotti thing. Whether he admits it or not, Ozzie hasn't been the same guy sice, and the players can tell. He would have been better off just being crazy Ozzie and maybe gotten fired or suspended for doing something stupid, instead of changing - I really dont think the players look at him like they used to

RowanDye
06-25-2007, 10:39 PM
Trading Rowand et. al. for Thome was bigger, not because not signing Frank Thomas was a mistake, though. The Sox would have had to pay Thomas more than he signed for in Oakland. Without Kondrko, who wouldn't have re-signed if Thome had not replaced Thomas, it's doubtful the Sox would have had the offense to contend. Getting Thome was good. Giving up Rowand to put an overrated prospect into center was the first event that changed the team.


We scored a lot of runs last year, offense was not the problem. The defense wasn't as good last year as it was in '05, but suffered from of a regression at all spots rather than simply losing Rowand in CF.

Rowand was a nice part of the World Series team, but I'm not sure his mere presence alone would have inspired our pitching staff not to suck last year. Maybe he could have warmed Politte and Cotts up in the bullpen?!

The '05 season should make you realize how important good timing is, and how bad our timing has been in '06 and so far in '07. Our team has been out of synch since we won the World Series, and this year has found it hard to field a starting nine.

We need to re-tool, and come in '08 all on the same page, with the same goal of winning another championship.

HotelWhiteSox
06-25-2007, 10:42 PM
I will go with Rooney and Man Soo Lee leaving

santo=dorf
06-25-2007, 10:44 PM
I could not agree more. As for the posters concerned about the signability of PK in light of #1, my answer is that the PK signing is part of the long term problem facing the team right now. They've got way too much cash tied up in him right now. If they really made the thome trade as part of a plan to appease PK - that is just dumb and only reinforces the point of how bad all the related transactions really were.

I continue to be amazed at all the man love for thome (a career Cleveland Indian) on this board coupled with a complete disrespect for frank's accomplishments. THOME HAS BEEN A BUST SINCE LAST YEAR'S ALL STAR BREAK and is a highly paid, injury prone, over the hill, all or nothing, one dimensional player at this point in his career.
Complete rubbish.

Have you bothered to look at Frank's stats this year? They're not great

If we had Frank last year the team would have been dead before June because Thome carried that offensive while Frank was batting .190 in April. Sure, Frank had a nice second half and helped the A's win in a weaker division, but the Sox would've been trailing Detroit by 10 games instead of 4 in September
Second half lines:
Frank: .298/.393/.563
Thome: .274/.420/.522
A difference of .014 in OPS

This year:
Frank: .242/.380/.437
Thome: .273/.450/.523
.156 advantage for Thome.

so if Thome is "over the hill" what does that make Frank? :?:

spiffie
06-25-2007, 10:50 PM
Here's my 3 - in no particular order.

1) Thome for Rowand, etc. This was a killer at the time and only because Thome hit a bunch of HR's early last season did we not see it. Aaron was the heart of this team, he made PK, AJ and Crede go as well. Paulie may have been the leader of this group (which also included Buherle and Garland), but Aaron was heart. Thome is basically an all or nothing #3 hitter, bunch of HR's, tons of strikeouts. At least Crazy Carl could hit a sac fly. At best Thome should hit 5th.

2) Ridding the team of Everett, Willie, El Duque (for vazquez - are you kidding me). There is much to be said for role players and good clubhouse guys like this, that cannot be replaced. Then releasing Widger and Politte, 2 very well liked guys, and KW lying and saying Widger didn't prepare-give me a break. His credibility with the rest of the guys was finally lost.

3) Finally, the Ozzie-Mariotti thing. Whether he admits it or not, Ozzie hasn't been the same guy sice, and the players can tell. He would have been better off just being crazy Ozzie and maybe gotten fired or suspended for doing something stupid, instead of changing - I really dont think the players look at him like they used to
So if Ozzie just started calling our bullpen pitchers **** their ERA's wouldn't be in the 6's and up?

Tragg
06-25-2007, 10:57 PM
I will second guess as to what we have not done:

a) Not finding a reliable set-up man once Cliff was finished; MacDougal was not reliable.

b) Given that Ozzie didn't like Anderson, not finding a real CF this past off-season. And in general, we have gotten exactly zip out of all of these highly rated OF prospects (although we did trade 2).

c) Lack of depth on bench - a bench full of utility players and no legitimate hitters. Utility players are 3rd string talent, who rely on their ability to cover several positions. Every bench needs one, but not 3, like we have. Hall is the only 2nd stringer we have.

jabrch
06-25-2007, 11:37 PM
Simply...

1) Crede, PK, JD, Iguchi, Erstad, Pods, Pablo all doing nothing offensively in the first half

2) The bullpen compltely sucking so far

3) Injuries to #1, #2, #3, #6, UI and C2

TDog
06-25-2007, 11:48 PM
We scored a lot of runs last year, offense was not the problem. The defense wasn't as good last year as it was in '05, but suffered from of a regression at all spots rather than simply losing Rowand in CF.

Rowand was a nice part of the World Series team, but I'm not sure his mere presence alone would have inspired our pitching staff not to suck last year. Maybe he could have warmed Politte and Cotts up in the bullpen?!

The '05 season should make you realize how important good timing is, and how bad our timing has been in '06 and so far in '07. Our team has been out of synch since we won the World Series, and this year has found it hard to field a starting nine.

We need to re-tool, and come in '08 all on the same page, with the same goal of winning another championship.

I believe I wrote that the Aaron Rowand trade was just the start.

People were upset by Bill Melton calling the parade a "once in a lifetime experience," but he was asked to provide live coverage for a parade, and I understand exactly where he was coming from. If the Sox go into 2006 with no changes to the roster, they're not going to win, either. Even with the benefit of hindsight, you can see a dropoff in the returning pitchers.

The Sox needed Jim Thome in 2006. Unfortunately, among the other things they needed was Aaron Rowand.

roadrunner
06-26-2007, 12:49 AM
Complete rubbish.

Have you bothered to look at Frank's stats this year? They're not great

If we had Frank last year the team would have been dead before June because Thome carried that offensive while Frank was batting .190 in April. Sure, Frank had a nice second half and helped the A's win in a weaker division, but the Sox would've been trailing Detroit by 10 games instead of 4 in September
Second half lines:
Frank: .298/.393/.563
Thome: .274/.420/.522
A difference of .014 in OPS

This year:
Frank: .242/.380/.437
Thome: .273/.450/.523
.156 advantage for Thome.

so if Thome is "over the hill" what does that make Frank? :?:

You miss the point completely. Thome was not enough of an upgrade to warrant everything that was given up for him. And as you point out, it's not even clear that it even represents an upgrade (combined 2006 and 2007: Thome 51 HR 137 RBI, Thomas 51 HR 158 RBI). That being the case, you can't possibly justify giving up your starting CF for a guy you basically already had at the easiest position to fill.

Additionally, the numbers that you present don't tell the whole story and Thome, while great, did not "carry that offense". You conveniently only point out the rate stats.

What about the rest of the second half lines from 2006?
Thome 12 HR 32 RBI
Thomas 20 HR 68 RBI

This year:
Thome 9 HR 28 RBI
Thomas 12 HR 34 RBI

Thome had a huge first half and then he faded when we needed him.

Also, think about the bargaining situation that KW was in at the time. The Phillies had Howard ready to go at first base. They didn't even want Thome. Furthermore, they couldn't possibly use him as he could no longer play first base (further decreasing his value). Anything they got for him would have been gravy. Think about it in that light for a minute and then tell me if that doesn't change your mind.

IowaSox1971
06-26-2007, 01:34 AM
When you have a good bullpen, you win. When you don't, you lose. We're losing now because our bullpen might be the worst in baseball. We didn't make the playoffs last season because Minnesota and Detroit had better bullpens.

People who suggest the Ozzie-Mariotti feud was the cause of last season's collapse are wrong. Ozzie uttered the slur when we were in the middle of a nine-game winning streak. We won five consecutive series after he made the comment (St. Louis, Houston, Pittsburgh, Cubs and Baltimore). We didn't start struggling until three or four weeks after the comment was made.

IowaSox1971
06-26-2007, 01:42 AM
You miss the point completely. Thome was not enough of an upgrade to warrant everything that was given up for him. And as you point out, it's not even clear that it even represents an upgrade (combined 2006 and 2007: Thome 51 HR 137 RBI, Thomas 51 HR 158 RBI). That being the case, you can't possibly justify giving up your starting CF for a guy you basically already had at the easiest position to fill.

Additionally, the numbers that you present don't tell the whole story and Thome, while great, did not "carry that offense". You conveniently only point out the rate stats.

What about the rest of the second half lines from 2006?
Thome 12 HR 32 RBI
Thomas 20 HR 68 RBI

This year:
Thome 9 HR 28 RBI
Thomas 12 HR 34 RBI

Thome had a huge first half and then he faded when we needed him.

Also, think about the bargaining situation that KW was in at the time. The Phillies had Howard ready to go at first base. They didn't even want Thome. Furthermore, they couldn't possibly use him as he could no longer play first base (further decreasing his value). Anything they got for him would have been gravy. Think about it in that light for a minute and then tell me if that doesn't change your mind.


You're forgetting that Konerko said the main reason he re-signed with us was that we had acquired Thome. He strongly indicated that if we hadn't re-signed Thome, then he would have signed with the Angels instead. I would much rather have Konerko and Thome than Frank and whoever. There is no guarantee we could have gotten a top-notch hitter to replace Konerko if he had signed elsewhere.

Also, we had to offer a lot to get Thome, because Minnesota and Cleveland were strongly interested in him, too.

santo=dorf
06-26-2007, 06:11 AM
You miss the point completely. Thome was not enough of an upgrade to warrant everything that was given up for him. And as you point out, it's not even clear that it even represents an upgrade (combined 2006 and 2007: Thome 51 HR 137 RBI, Thomas 51 HR 158 RBI). That being the case, you can't possibly justify giving up your starting CF for a guy you basically already had at the easiest position to fill.

Additionally, the numbers that you present don't tell the whole story and Thome, while great, did not "carry that offense". You conveniently only point out the rate stats.

What about the rest of the second half lines from 2006?
Thome 12 HR 32 RBI
Thomas 20 HR 68 RBI

This year:
Thome 9 HR 28 RBI
Thomas 12 HR 34 RBI

Thome had a huge first half and then he faded when we needed him.

Also, think about the bargaining situation that KW was in at the time. The Phillies had Howard ready to go at first base. They didn't even want Thome. Furthermore, they couldn't possibly use him as he could no longer play first base (further decreasing his value). Anything they got for him would have been gravy. Think about it in that light for a minute and then tell me if that doesn't change your mind.
Thome was a massive upgrade over the DH's of 2005, and RBI's are not a fair stat to use to compare between two players who are on separate teams.

If you recall, the team in the August and September of 2006 was playing corpseball like this team. How exactly is Thome supposed to get any RBI's if nobody is on base? He can hit solo home runs, but do we really want Thome to be like Sosa?

itsnotrequired
06-26-2007, 07:01 AM
You miss the point completely. Thome was not enough of an upgrade to warrant everything that was given up for him. And as you point out, it's not even clear that it even represents an upgrade (combined 2006 and 2007: Thome 51 HR 137 RBI, Thomas 51 HR 158 RBI). That being the case, you can't possibly justify giving up your starting CF for a guy you basically already had at the easiest position to fill.

Additionally, the numbers that you present don't tell the whole story and Thome, while great, did not "carry that offense". You conveniently only point out the rate stats.

What about the rest of the second half lines from 2006?
Thome 12 HR 32 RBI
Thomas 20 HR 68 RBI

This year:
Thome 9 HR 28 RBI
Thomas 12 HR 34 RBI

Thome had a huge first half and then he faded when we needed him.

Also, think about the bargaining situation that KW was in at the time. The Phillies had Howard ready to go at first base. They didn't even want Thome. Furthermore, they couldn't possibly use him as he could no longer play first base (further decreasing his value). Anything they got for him would have been gravy. Think about it in that light for a minute and then tell me if that doesn't change your mind.

But now we are just cherry-picking stats. If you look at the second half 2006 stats, Thomas hit an extra home run and had two more RBIs each month. Big deal. How about the 2006 first half numbers for Thomas and Thome?

Thome 30 HR 77 RBI
Thomas 19 HR 46 RBI

As for this year's stats, keep in mind that Thome has nearly paced Thomas' production in 100 fewer at-bats.

Lip Man 1
06-26-2007, 11:41 AM
Iowa:

I think the point was more towards the 'sensativity training' that (to me) appears to have changed him.

Lip

IowaSox1971
06-26-2007, 12:05 PM
Iowa:

I think the point was more towards the 'sensativity training' that (to me) appears to have changed him.

Lip


I haven't really seen that many changes in Ozzie. He's still making some jokes. He's still talking about controversial issues, like he did when he discussed Latin players and steroids. He's still swearing while talking with the media, and he's still not really politically correct. Even last night, he joked about a lot of "fat" fans in Tampa being able to eat free pizza while the Sox were in town, because the Rays give away pizza when their pitchers get 10 strikeouts or more in a game.

soxrme
06-26-2007, 12:37 PM
With the benefit of hindsight, here's the real 3:

#1 - Dropping Frank and trading for Thome. Had they instead gone after a part-time DH/OF to play fulltime and then oscillate between DH and the OF once Frank was healthy, they'd have had more cash, Gio, Haigwood, and Rowand in CF. That strengthens the team, even though Rowand probably wouldn't have hit 87 HR and played all 9 positions simultaneously.

#2 - Trading Young, Duque, Vizcaino for Vazquez and pushing McCarthy to the bullpen. Seemed solid at the time, but it's fallen through. Vaz is good, but they have a dearth of position players and Young's looking OK. Plus, as time has gone on, I've started to better appreciate the mental aspect of having a Duque to turn to at times. The guy was a gamer plain and simple. Plus, they tied up $$$ that could have been used elsewhere (bullpen?).

#3 - Kenny vocally talking about how everything's overpriced when it seems the market is just moving upwards and most other teams find themselves flush with cash (but so far, not the Sox). This is the most confusing of the bunch, and so I'm hoping it's more of Kenny laying low and waiting for this coming offseason.

I understood the arguments at the time, but in the end, GMs need to be evaluated on results, especially when it comes to projecting improvement and development from guys. And dealing Rowand and Young while relying on Anderson, etc has so far been a bad move, even when ignoring the financial aspects involved.
I agree and would only add if it was true we could have had Tajhada for McCarthy I would have done it in a heartbeat

Flight #24
06-26-2007, 12:47 PM
Just curious how you'd replace PK in this scenario.

I'm not sure why you'd have to. PK plays 1B. I highly doubt that he was leaving if Frank stayed. If it took an extra mil/yr, you probably still come out ahead given that you keep Gio, Haigwood, Rowand.

tacosalbarojas
06-26-2007, 12:48 PM
I haven't really seen that many changes in Ozzie. He's still making some jokes. He's still talking about controversial issues, like he did when he discussed Latin players and steroids. He's still swearing while talking with the media, and he's still not really politically correct. Even last night, he joked about a lot of "fat" fans in Tampa being able to eat free pizza while the Sox were in town, because the Rays give away pizza when their pitchers get 10 strikeouts or more in a game.
This is true, good stuff with the "there's going to be more fat people in TB"...also at the end of the press conference on Friday when the reporters were asking Ozzie about Buehrle's unavailability for postgame due to him being sick, Ozzie was apparently clueless. The reporters were telling Ozzie about it, and he at one point asked if it was Mark's wife, then informed it was Mark, he said as he was walking away, "oh **** Buehrle".

vegyrex
06-26-2007, 12:48 PM
There was a point last year where the 06 team was playing and looking better than in 05. In my eyes 3 things changed this team from a team that looked like it was having fun and enjoyed being together as a team. Since these events the team has looked old, boring and down right dead. The events i'm thinking of:
1) Burls being banned from the tarp slide. Sure injury is at risk. However what changed from the first years Burls was doing it to last year.
2) Haircut-gate. A big stink was made about AJ and Crede's hair being too long. Then it was said that this has been a team rule for years. Really well then where was the rule in 05? We aren't the Yankees. I don't want them to be identical robots with similar physical styles wearing business suits all the time looking well groomed. What happened to individuality?
3) Jay Marriotti, Ozzie Guillen, ******. When Ozzie used this term to describe how he felt about Jay Marriotti the backlash and results kind of killed the edge that Ozzie had and made this team what it was. There was a time when Ozzie would say whatever he felt and this team re-eacted to that. The fire Ozzie brought reflected to the team. Now you look at Ozzie and you can tell he has something to say yet he won't say it. He is holding back. I don't want to say in fear, but in being cautious of what will happen. Ozzie's aggressive attitude reflected the teams style. now the passiveness of Ozzie = the team as well.

Yes to all three.

slobes
06-26-2007, 12:52 PM
Better yet did Burls ever get hurt doing this. I would like to know how he would get hurt doing this? If he would pop his shoulder sliding on a tarp I would be willing to bet the shoulder would be on the verge already.


http://63.192.157.117/Hotshots/0705/image/slip-n-slide.jpg

The Slip N' Slide is used every summer day by thousands of little children around the nation. If they can somehow avoid injury from it the majority of the time, I'm sure Buehrle can as well.

tacosalbarojas
06-26-2007, 12:53 PM
Let's face it, so much has gone awry with this team, there's no way to limit it to one, two, or three factors; be they analytical or more sublime. Konerko had a good quote a couple of weeks back, went something like this..."everything's gone wrong, I can't figure it out. In 2005 everything went right, and I couldn't figure that out either."

RockJock07
06-26-2007, 02:47 PM
Let's face it, so much has gone awry with this team, there's no way to limit it to one, two, or three factors; be they analytical or more sublime. Konerko had a good quote a couple of weeks back, went something like this..."everything's gone wrong, I can't figure it out. In 2005 everything went right, and I couldn't figure that out either."

Nailed it!

santo=dorf
06-26-2007, 04:44 PM
I highly doubt that he was leaving if Frank stayed.
Why do you say this? The Rabid Konerko Haters here still hold his 2002 ASB comments against him. Konerko even said he was pretty close to signing with the Angels.

Rowand wasn't even that good last year either.

Frankfan4life
06-26-2007, 04:44 PM
I could not agree more. As for the posters concerned about the signability of PK in light of #1, my answer is that the PK signing is part of the long term problem facing the team right now. They've got way too much cash tied up in him right now. If they really made the thome trade as part of a plan to appease PK - that is just dumb and only reinforces the point of how bad all the related transactions really were.

I continue to be amazed at all the man love for thome (a career Cleveland Indian) on this board coupled with a complete disrespect for frank's accomplishments. THOME HAS BEEN A BUST SINCE LAST YEAR'S ALL STAR BREAK and is a highly paid, injury prone, over the hill, all or nothing, one dimensional player at this point in his career.If KW didn't hate Frank so much there would have been no need to trade for Thome and Rowand would still be with the team. I also think that KW's public and humiliating fight with Frank really hurt team morale. Also, trading Ross Gload was a BIG mistake.

santo=dorf
06-26-2007, 04:47 PM
If KW didn't hate Frank so much there would have been no need to trade for Thome and Rowand would still be with the team. I also think that KW's public and humiliating fight with Frank really hurt team morale. Also, trading Ross Gload was a BIG mistake.
Rowand was mediocre again last year, Thomas was awful in April and Thome had a better year, KW's comments came AFTER Frank popped off which was after the Konerko and Thome moves were made, and Gload hasn't play since May 13th and has a .317 OBP.

DannyCaterFan
06-26-2007, 08:41 PM
I totally agree with your post, especially point #2. We miss the speed of guys like Willie Harris, Timo Perez and Rowand. These guys were spark plugs that helped the team tremendously.

Here's my 3 - in no particular order.

1) Thome for Rowand, etc. This was a killer at the time and only because Thome hit a bunch of HR's early last season did we not see it. Aaron was the heart of this team, he made PK, AJ and Crede go as well. Paulie may have been the leader of this group (which also included Buherle and Garland), but Aaron was heart. Thome is basically an all or nothing #3 hitter, bunch of HR's, tons of strikeouts. At least Crazy Carl could hit a sac fly. At best Thome should hit 5th.

2) Ridding the team of Everett, Willie, El Duque (for vazquez - are you kidding me). There is much to be said for role players and good clubhouse guys like this, that cannot be replaced. Then releasing Widger and Politte, 2 very well liked guys, and KW lying and saying Widger didn't prepare-give me a break. His credibility with the rest of the guys was finally lost.

3) Finally, the Ozzie-Mariotti thing. Whether he admits it or not, Ozzie hasn't been the same guy sice, and the players can tell. He would have been better off just being crazy Ozzie and maybe gotten fired or suspended for doing something stupid, instead of changing - I really dont think the players look at him like they used to

pills11.com ;))pills11.com ;))

Brian26
06-26-2007, 08:59 PM
If KW didn't hate Frank so much there would have been no need to trade for Thome and Rowand would still be with the team.

Remember, though, that Frank was guaranteed to come back healthy enough to play back in December of '05. His future was up in the air. The Thome move was the right move at the time.